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Censorship Among Occult Practicioners

 
  

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h3r
17:32 / 07.05.04
I realize theTemple might not be the adequate place for this, but since mostly Temple posters were involved in the discussion in question I put it here......

so the Fetch occult /NWO thread got locked because one of the moderators did not receive replies to his demands (regarding proof of Nietsche being a Jew)?!?!

i cant believe this. i thought it was an interesting thread. not really due to the fetch's original posts, but witnessing how everybody responded has opened my eyes and given me lots to think about.

I feel somewhat disappointed by the misunderstanding and hatemongering that I perceived in the various posts fighting against the Fetches un-proven allegations about various conspiracy topics. (there were but a few posters who were calm and factual about this, which I applaude)

But now locking down the thread I can't help viewing as unjust cencorship (especially if the Fetch will actually be denied his membership as suggested)
his opinions obviously bothered many . I still don't think there is a real reason for censorship. If there ever is one.
I know some of you will once again shout "But he Is propagating anti-semitism". I don't think he his. It has been suggested that I might not be well enough read, since I dont see the obvious antisemitism here......just because I'm not agreeing with majority opinion I am assuemd to be the Fetch's alter ego or uneducated..... that's a bit narrow minded.

I also would be interested to see some of the Fetch's claims supported by some evidence, but I don't feel a need to burn him if he can't deliver.
 
 
Samael
17:56 / 07.05.04
I have to chime in and say that while I see a definite anti-semetic slant in this conspiracy theory, I agree that it doesn't necessarily warrant censorship. It is the moderators' position to ban membership, but I ask: what if the thread in question were anti-Christian, anti-Islamic, even anti-Masonic? After all,they are the same thing as Judaism - a religious belief, nothing more. Is it somehow more wrong to talk bad about one religion, but not the other?
 
 
Salamander
18:26 / 07.05.04
So it finally happened, someone is getting persecuted for there beliefs on the 'lith, no matter that they are for the most part unsupported, and never mind that they may or may not be anti-semetic, if the 'lith gets censored because of something other then trolling then thats an end to an age right there. Pack up your bags and move to the new T.A.Z., they found us out, too bad, this was fun.
 
 
---
18:45 / 07.05.04
I agree h3r, simply because that thread has been the best thing i've read in here for a while now and i'm a little gutted that it's closed. I suppose we haven't seen any of the other stuff that Illmatic said he's found elsewhere on the net but whatever the outcome i hope that The Fetch sorts this problem out with any mods and Tom and still posts here in future becuase i liked his threads.

Also i hope this doesn't stop others from posting about the same type of thing in future. (Possible New World Order and it's links to the occult etc)

Oh yeah, also : just because a lot of people here don't entertain the notion of worldwide conspiracies or meta conspiracies or whatever you want to call it, it would be sad to find that in the future people got the same type of flack for bringing up the possibilities of it being true. It might not be able to be proved but at the same time there's not one thing anyone can come up with to disprove it either, apart from their beliefs on the matter.

I'm 50/50 on it, i like to keep an open mind. Of course in doing this i have to put up with the pigeonholes some people create for people with this 50/50 belief. It would be a lot better if people didn't get so wound up about the idea, because it is only an idea after all.

Nobody was right to call him anti-semetic either. To be anti-semetic he'd of had to include all the other semetic language speaking people, which he didn't.

This is from Wikipedia :

In a linguistic context, it refers to speakers of a subgroup of the Afroasiatic languages including, among others, Arabic, Hebrew, and Amharic. Thus the area of Semitic languages is actually much larger than the area most non-linguists associate with the term "Semitic". They stretch all the way along the southern Mediterranean Sea to the Atlantic Ocean, into Mali and along the coast of the Red Sea all the way to Somalia in Africa. Semitic languages are also spoken in European Malta and on Socotra in the Indian Ocean. Additionally, millions of Muslims speak Classical (Qur’ānic) Arabic as a second language, and many Jews all over the world speak Hebrew as a second language. It should be noted that Coptic, Berber, Somali, and many other related Afro-Asiatic languages within this area do not belong to the Semitic subgroup.

In a religious context, it refers to the religions associated with the speakers of these languages: thus Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are often described as "Semitic religions". This term can equally include the polytheistic religions (such as the cults of Tammuz or Baal) that flourished in the Middle East before the Abrahamic religions.



Not trying to cause any shit, i just hope that The Fetch gets a fair do and that some people be a little more open minded and less hostile with conspiracy minded people in the future. We are only human after all, and the world being in the state it's in sort of invites this kind of stuff, which again, hasn't ever been disproved.
 
 
charrellz
19:03 / 07.05.04
Not much important to add, just my two cents. Mostly, I just want to add another voice of support for the anti-censorship side. As dumb, inane, or innacurate someone's posts may be, that person should still be allowed to discuss it. To use Fetch as an example, perhaps his thread actually helped some see anti-semitism and the such in things they have read.

Any topic should be allowed for discussion on a discussion board. If someone has a problem with an idea, either look at a different thread or respond. It's not ideas we need to avoid, but people mindlessly spouting off offensive concepts in an offensive manner.
 
 
charrellz
19:07 / 07.05.04
Just thought of this: As far as Illmatic's assertion that Fetch's threads break down into trolling - ya Fetch was a little lacking on good conduct, but his original and subsequent posts did spark conversation, granted some of which was off-topic. He got discussion going; isn't that the whole point?
 
 
h3r
19:27 / 07.05.04
Pack up your bags and move to the new T.A.Z., they found us out, too bad this was fun.
hermes, lets not be too hasty. i agree with what you say otherwise, but we are still in mid-discussion here so lets not jump ship yet!
a few bumps on the road shall improve the greater whole.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:38 / 07.05.04
What's strange is the thread was originally about New World Order and the Occult and somehow got derailed into being about anti-semetism in the world.
 
 
FinderWolf
19:39 / 07.05.04
Actually, looking at the infamous thread again, the initial post had anti-semetic stuff in it, so it's not like it was free of that stuff and somehow got sidetracked. But I think the topic the New World Order and the Occult is a valid one, just not with the anti-semetic slant, of course.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
20:04 / 07.05.04
The discussions he got going were mainly requests for him to produce evidence to back up his claims, which instead of 'debate' he took as a personal attack and began trolling other members. He torpedoed any discussion we could have had about the subject by being obtuse, arrogant and abusive. As Illmatic (whom I applaud for doing some background research into this guy - I wouldn't mind seeing some of the other stuff Fetch has done) said in his final post before locking the thread, Fetch expresses homophobia, anti-semitism and holocaust denial on other message boards. On the whole people like this don't 'discuss', and the Fetch is no exception. The thread descended into me, Maitreya, Mordant', Stoatie, Illmatic et al. trying to coax some kind of definitive statement out of him, which he was afraid to do on a normally liberal and (more importantly) rational discussion group.
Incidentally, for a more rational and balanced discussion on Judaism and Fascism go watch the film 'The Believer', not only a good piece of filmmaking, but a genuinely intelligent and informed critique of both beliefs.
 
 
cusm
21:19 / 07.05.04
I personally find it interesting that "anti-semitism" is such a hot button at all, even with folks who have no real relation to Jews (or Semites, a much larger group, for that matter). If you want fuel for conspiracy theories, the outlandish success of the PR machine that has drummed that term into all of our heads to jump and yell "NAZI!" as soon as someone says anything remotely slanting towards (or even in reference to as a group) "jews" is quite frightening to me. This machine is big and mighty, this very controversy evidence of its existence. It is not at all unfair to speculate on the possible occult basis of such a thing. I mean, that's one of the sorts of things we do here. That it is supported by "The Establishment" to the degree it is is reason enough to not trust what it has to say, giving legitimate room for speculation on how much the data we've seen has been fudged. That too is something The Underground is all about. I think its good of us to remember that for a minute. (having just watched the disinfo series DVDs last night, I'm a bit back on the horse for not trusting anything in the media again).

But can we even talk about it? It is even possible to point out the existence of the PR machine itself without activating it into another flame war? Its that touchy of a thing. And that's why the thread was locked. I don't personally support censoring, but for something like this I will admidt that it is wise to stop and give it a moment to cool off before continuing further with it.
 
 
LVX23
22:49 / 07.05.04
so the Fetch occult /NWO thread got locked because one of the moderators did not receive replies to his demands (regarding proof of Nietsche being a Jew)?!?!

This not why he was booted. As Illmatic noted, what Fetch was obliquely presenting here was a toned-down version of some very anti-semitic and homophobic posts he's made to other boards. This is on top of his general unwillingness to really participate in the Brabelith community.

As long as Fetch has been here he's used the board as a soapbox to voice his personal theories. Rarely has he opened his rants to discussion. I don't think he's being booted solely for his opinions. He just hasn't ever really tried to be a part of the community dialogue.

Do you ever see him chime in on other topics unless they happened to touch on numerology or gematria? And then he only uses it as a springboard to dive back into his own rants. Has he ever helped anyone with their general questions or metaphysical crises? He doesn't contribute to the welcoming supportive vibe that makes Barbelith so great.

IMHO, he has offered little information of value and has never tried to help others here. His latest rants, and those he has posted on other boards, seem to reveal the depth of his self-centered & hateful delusions.

To me his presence has become increasingly narrow-minded and negative. He's not the first to get banned and he won't be the last.

I for one support the decision to boot him.
 
 
Tom Coates
23:06 / 07.05.04
With regard to the individual's "alleged" anti-semitism, I hope the appended text helps to elucidate why the thread was closed. I'm totally unapologetic about this - the board's policy on harrassment has been made pretty clear on a number of occasions - individual's should not feel under threat from other individuals, and that includes people making threats to ethnic or sexual groups. There's more than enough stuff in the threads above to make the individual a worry in the posts in that thread and after really not very much research, it's pretty clear to me that the person concerned is a very definite fantasist, anti-semite and a rabid (and threatening!) homophobe and I'm afraid as long as I'm paying the bills I'm not prepared to give him a platform to proselytise this bullshit from.

With regards to 'censorship' - whatever you might believe, the board does have a few rules and sometimes those rules result in the deletion of posts. We have regularly deleted posts by abusive trolls and will continue to do so. We delete spam from the board so that people don't get overwhelmed with crappy advertising. And there are a whole range of legal reasons for me having to delete some things too which would expose me personally to risk. We also delete posts (and users) who harrass other users - and I'm afraid I do think that someone who practices holocaust denial, unsubstantiated attacks that say that the Nazis were actually Jewish half-breeds and makes statements that "All Jews are trained killers" probably would be viewed as a threat and an attack on all Jewish people and should rightly be considered a direct form of harrassment. Similarly if people want to start saying that "Niggers should be broken in with tire-irons" or that "Lesbians should be fed to Alsatians" (as people have done in the past), they'll find their posts deleted and their user-names booted off the site so quickly that they'll start moving backwards in time. If you have a problem with that, then you should consider moving elsewhere.

So almost 3000 years ago? . Thats a lot of time to build up angst against those who are percieved to have wronged this community. When will jewish people begin to embrace other people of the world and contribute something of thier brilliant mind for world benefit?.

It is becoming all to clear that this dream of a Greater Zion has become the axis of Jewish thought. In Jewish thought, they believe that by "spinning the Dreidle", the whole world of the Goy will collapse at the feet of the Jewish race. This story highlights the insidious nature of this resentment that lies within the hearts of they who lead the Jewish people:

""A children's game, played in the firelight of a cold winter night, the Chanukah Menorah silently glowing in the window... The dreidel. Its four sides spinning around the still point in the turning circle; spinning so fast that its sides blur into nothingness... The dreidel. So seemingly insignificant - and yet this little dreidel contains the story of the Jewish People; the history of the whole world...

AND The Hand that spins the dreidel comes from above...
Every empire thinks that it will last forever, but The Hand that spins only spins the dreidel of history for predetermined time and then, each Empire, despite its vainglorious boasting, falters on its axis...and finally crashes.

THE DREIDEL. A children's game,
played in the firelight of a cold winter night, the Chanukah Menorah silently glowing in the window... The dreidel. Its four sides spinning around the still point in the turning circle; spinning so fast that its sides blur into nothingness... The dreidel. So seemingly insignificant - and yet this little dreidel contains the story of the Jewish People; the history of the whole world...

WHAT is it that is carved on the sides of our dreidel?
Nun, Gimmel, Sin, Heh... On the surface, those letters stand for "Nes Gadol Hayah Sham - A great miracle happened there" - The commemoration of a miraculous victory of a faithful few over the might of the Greek Empire. But on a deeper level, the dreidel is a microcosmic representation of the four kingdoms, Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome spinning around the center, the Jewish People.

AND The Hand that spins the dreidel comes from above...
Every empire thinks that it will last forever, but The Hand that spins only spins the dreidel of history for predetermined time and then, each Empire, despite its vainglorious boasting, falters on its axis...and finally crashes.

This dream exists and survives today in the hearts and minds of Jews the world over. Their leaders harbor this vision of the world collapsing at the feet of the Jewish people. Their leading political leaders use their influence and power to decieve. 9-11 was by the Arabs they say!

No. You do not invoke a Kabballah formula set against the 11 name of G-d and not expose yourselves. You don not create a list of 19 Arab flyers when we all know that the Koran was built on the Number 19. You dont set America's young to go fight and die in a war because of your intransigence to solve your differences and live in peace.

Some us understand that America's leadership is being blackmailed because of our trust and kindness to the Jews after the Holocaust, that you have used this trust to set "dirty bombs" made from your weapons facilities and threaten to use them on America's unsuspecting public. We know that we were blackmailed into fighting the first Gulf War because you refused to settle your differences with the Palestinians people, a people whom you treat every bit as vile and cruelly as Nazi's treated your forebears.

We understand that the Iraqi Liberation Act was passed at Jewish Elite behest in 1998, and that it was only a matter of time before your machinations brought the American people into your war of cruel punishment against a people who only crime was to be born where your sages sought to fulfil their own delusional dream of a home for Jews.

That this "home" is led by a War Criminal does not escape us. Clearly our good graces towards you as a people has been met with an iron fist. We are not waging a proxy war against a power that had not the weapons that your agent, Ahmed Chalabi, had said.

In short, the Jewish people LIED to the American people to engage the Americans in a fraudelent and immoral war. To move the American people, you took down and murdered so many innocent people in the World Trade Center, a symbol of isisian Pagan beliefs that your priestcraft has always reviled because it stood as testament to ideas counter to the world of darkness that your religion brings to the world.

In otherwords, this maccabre idea of hatred that Jews harbor against the Human Race is contained in a "childs game", a game that essentially teaches that an unseen hand exists to destroy those societies that are not Jewish. Such rituals of magic these Jews practice. Spin the dreidle little child. You, the seed of Abraham and Isaac, are as the hidden hand that unseen can with the twist of the wrist set the Dreidle spinning

Yet when you spin the Dreidle before my eyes, I too know your Levantian system of black magic. I know.

CHERUB = 3+8+5+18+21+2 = 57 = 4+18+5+9+4+12+5 = DREIDLE

Your numbers of mesmer show the nature of your mind..a mind that seeks to harm for the sheer pleasure that you can..

If you learned anything from the Holocaust, it is this: the world does not collapse around the Axis, the Allies imploded upon the Axis. Your "childhood game" is not even a game, but an example of your arrogant attempts to enslave a whole world in service of your G-d.

This cannot and shall not be allowed to happen.

The Fetch
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Here are some quotes that perhaps you are familiar and perhaps you are not from our "friendly Jews" in the Middle East. Remember these words when you hear Israeli's whining about how "the others" are the "terrorists"....

Many of you do not understand the nature of "the Jew" and all that it entails in ways seen and "unseen".

Jews CHEERED when the heard of Yassin's death. Yet here are the words of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef in a sermon in 2001. "May the Holy Name revisit retribution on the Arab heads, and cause their seed to be lost, and annhilate them." He added later. "It is forbidden to have pity on them. We must give them missiles with relish, annhilate them. Evil ones. Damnable ones." Source: Ha'aretz

Why dont you Jews incinerate this clear "man of hatred" that calls for genocide? Or do you simply look the other way when a Jew calls for genocide? Tsk tsk...we have noted these words and the inaction of Jews to sanction calls for Genocide of others.

And of course, now that America has become a Noahidist state, what are the Noahide Laws and the beliefs of the Jews who govern America? Their leader is Rabbi Ginsberg, and some of his Rabbi's have done battle with me personally, a rather high compliment for such a "lowly goy".

"The Blood of the Jewish people is loved by the Lord; it is therefore redder and their life is preferable." Rabbi Ginsberg, Five General Religious Duties Which Lie behind the Acts of the Saintly, Late Rabbi Baruch, may his blood be revenged.

"The killing of a non-Jew by a Jew, ie a Palestinian, is considered essentially a good deed, and therefore Jews should have no compunction about it." - Rabbi Ginsberg, see above.

Just warming up here...more to come!
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Well, here we are, in the year 2004.

Jews have machinated and involved the people of the United States into a war against Islam of their own making. They have sought to and effectively covered up the TRUTH of 9-11 and their involvement therein. They have caused over 700 American (non Jews we will presume) dead soldiers, and countless Iraqi's.

And here we are being asked to wage this war in the name of a "Holocaust" that is central to Jewish themes, and yet Jews do NOT WANT US TO CRITICALLY ANALYSE the facts of the story that they present us with. Instead, they DEMAND that we ACCEPT WITHOUT QUESTION their lies and deciept.

So they scream "Holocaust Denial"!

What?

Denial? Denial of "what"? A word? What are they saying?

Lets look at the facts of what they want removed:

1) They want to remove the ACTUAL HISTORICAL RECORD OF THE RED CROSS and the RED CROSSES REPORTS from the concentration camps. Gee, IF ONLY reason the Jews, that we can erase this historical record, in real time, our lie would have a better chance of fooling EVERYONE. Yet Jews dont understand that they are chasing after the Biblical Beast in a very real sense, and the passages of this Beast are clear: Jews would decieve MANY PEOPLE, but certainly not all the people, and when they are confronted with someone who is not deceived, they simply dont know how to react.

The ACTUAL HISTORICAL RECORDS of the camps (transit or concentration) dont support the LIE. They were created BEFORE the LIE was set into place, and this bit of history is something that Jews want to "erase" and "eliminate".

2) They want to REMOVE the actual HISTORY of the NAZI Plan of a War against CHRISTIANITY, which is now being taken up by the Jewish elite. Imagine that, Jews want an ACTUAL PLAN (can anyone say Protocols of Zion) removed from the lexicon of valid knowledge that people should be entitled to read. Why is it that Jews DONT WANT PEOPLE to SEE what is going on unless they are involved in a GREAT CRIME in the making of BIBLICAL proportions? Of course, this Nazi Plan is now a Noahidist Plan: the beast that had its head smashed was healed in Zionist (Nazi) Amerika.
link

3) Jews want to REMOVE knowledge that MANY of Germany's leaders were actually of "mixed breed" or "half Jews". These "half Jews" were responsible for many of the decisions which sent 10's of millions of Germans to their deaths in the steppes of Russia and in the undefended cities that their brethren in other countries bombed into ash. This truth is something that Jews DESPERATELY wish to keep from the eye of humanity.
www.kansaspress..ku.edu/righitpix.html

4) Jews do now want you to know that Hitler was a Jew...

Many things Jews do not want you to know, because their next target is America itself and they are using the same strategies (National Security, Patriot Act, etc.) as they used in Nazi Germany.

Yes, if I were a Jew, I would scream in panic as my plan was being laid bare also. It is too late: the die is cast.

The Fetch
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TheMiddleEastPoint@groups.msn.com

Thread: Jews: Thieves of the Middle East

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Remember when Jews robbed the bank...as a STATE FUNCTION? I mean..if this isnt proof that Jews are thieves, I dont know what is. But the thievery of the Master Race of the WHOLE UNIVERSE continues to grow by leaps and bounds in its absolute disdain for the people of planet earth.

Yesterday, a Palestinian's bank account so Jews can starve people to death. Today, an attack on Christianity itself, perhaps the first salvo in the Jewish war against the entire human consciousness.

You see, Jews have no respect for the rule of law..save their own of course, which as we have seen by the behaviour here, is about as advanced as hooliganism. So the great Satan, George Bush, protector of Global Jewish values (criminality it seems), received a letter from non-other than The Holy Land Christian Society. Why? What else? Theft. LOL!

Jews stole land from the Christians to build their "wall of racism" to prove of course to the rest of us that they are, well, theives.

It seems that Church property is being over-run by Jews. Let's all be humored for a second if non-Jews swarmed all over a Jewish synogogue for a second, and the uproar these theives would bring to bear and the "outrage" they would feign at every opportunity. We would not be able to sing our children to sleep without Jews screaming about how the nursery rhymes were anti-Semitic and an affront to G-d.

But here we are, in a Christian sanctuary, with Jews tropsing around with careless disregard for the sacred ideas of others (let alone the personal property that would ensue with a democracy, that is, well, Israel aint no democracy..it is a criminal organisation where Jews vote and the rest be damned and if they want to steal your land..well..tough shit...they are Jews and they have the desire to kill you if you dare oppose them)...but anyways..nuff said about their society of biggotry.

The issue here is the simple concept called civilised conduct, which for over a year I have said Jews lacked and for which Jews prove me right every single day. Today, they have now profaned a Christian sanctuary..

Seems Jews stole the most important parts: the orphanage, the playground, and the area used for the elderly.

Jews cannot get more callous..but wait..yes they can. They can force people to deal with Jake/Yosefa/Madalan for a period of time....

Not quite putting kids out on the street, but you get the point.

Welcome to Israel..where the rule of the gun is the rule of the gun. Dont like it..tough shit...blow yourselves up then...see if we care...we use it as an excuse to..well..implement the rule of the gun!
See the story in todays Yahoo News...Middle East Section, where barbarity of Jews is on display every single day. And arent we all so lucky to have them as our teachers?

Cheney is just a humanitarian, aint he? And Wolfowitz...what a Nobel laureate....and then there is Jake...who thinks that killing people is the best way to solve problems, so long as it is Jews who get to do the killing..but hey...he is Jewish, and his civilised behaviour shines like a beacon of light to the whole world!

The Fetch
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That you worship child sacrifice and call it holy? (Passover - ever the victim huh?) That your entire thesis is about a declaration of war against the non-Jewish world. That you are about as tolerant as your religion teaches, which is the epitomy of intolerance. That you want us to remains silent while millions of Palestinians are mal-nourished and would starve to death without international aid. That Israel is a pariah state and your support of this state in the way you do will only lead to far too many problems for the United States, hence a need to divorce ourselves from Israel and to go after the elite that brought this war on the United States.

You folks cheer because American kids were sent to be slaughtered in Iraq for a Pan-Zionist dream that was never attainable.

You dont have a country. It is borderless. You dont have a Constitution, which contributes to your lawlessness as a society. Every Jew is a trained killer, except the "important ones", who get to study the Torat, a racist document that is the root of mankinds problems.

In short, you folks simply cannot be trusted, do not want peace, want to impose yourselves over non-Jews, and you are about as civilised as a bar-room bully.

End of case.

You cannot negotiate with thugs as you have clearly intimated.

The Fetch
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The recent comments by our gaggle of racist thugs has brought to light the need to simply post some information that shows that these people are only interested in intolerance and biggotry.

When they say that "only Islam" seeks to enforce its religion on others, they are clearly completely failing to critically analyze the thousands of examples we are bombarded with in the West daily by these intolerant brick brains.

HIV AND AIDS

BUT THEY WANT EVEN MORE "GAY RIGHTS"?

DO THEY WANT THE "RIGHT" TO GIVE EVERYONE AIDS?



The "right" To give our CHILDREN AIDS too?

Visit http://chicagofreepress.com discover the INSIDIOUS and MENACING HOMOSEXUAL/LESBIAN CONSPIRACY – these DANGEROUS TERRORISTS PRESENT A SERIOUS DANGER TO OUR PRECIOUS YOUTH AND TO ALL AMERICANS!

b

SO REPEAT AFTER ME BOYS AND GIRLS: (LOUDLY!)

* HOMOSEXUALS ARE NOT NORMAL

* LESBIANS ARE NOT NORMAL

* BISEXUALS ARE NOT NORMAL

* TRANSSEXUALS ARE NOT NORMAL

* SODOMY IS NOT NORMAL

* GENITAL SUCKING IS NOT NORMAL

* B&D/S&M and Artificial SEX TOYS are NOT NORMAL

* DRUG ABUSE and ADDICTION ARE NOT NORMAL

* MENTAL DISEASE IS NOT NORMAL (unless you are a Liberal)

* Syphilis, Gonorrhea, Herpes, Hepatitis, Chlamidiya and TB are NOT NORMAL

* HIV and AIDS ARE NOT NORMAL

All of the above DEFINES THE "GAY" LIFE - thus we can understand:

The "GAY LIFE" IS NOT NORMAL!

"GAYS" ARE NOT NORMAL!

(it is possible that they are not people either but that is another issue)

"GAY" MEANS PROMISCUOUS & MENTALLY ILL
PROMISCUITY BREEDS DISEASES
"GAY" MEANS MADNESS AND DEATH
Our First Targeted Den of Filth & Debauchery is:

http://chicagofreepress.com

This Dangerous GAY PORNOGRAPHY is being distributed FREE OF CHARGE at Chicago "El" Stations and EXPOSING OUR DEAR SCHOOL CHILDREN TO OBSCENE PHOTOGRAPHS OF GAY SEX and HOMOSEXUALS DRESSED AS WOMEN ENGAGED IN VILE PERVERSION AND DANGEROUS SEXUAL PRACTICES - we MUST STOP THIS TRASH AND ELIMINATE THIS DANGEROUS MEDIA PRESENCE AND DRIVE THESE SEX-CRAZED HOMOSEXUALS AND LESBIANS BACK INTO THE SEWER WHERE THEY CAME FROM!

Additional Information SHALL BE PROVIDED ABOUT THE DEBASED AND DANGEROUS DEVIANTS AND TERRORISTS AT:

http://www.chicagofreepress.com

AND THIS VILE FILTH IN CHICAGO'S COMMUNITY MUST BE STOPPED NOW!

REMEMBER FOR THE SAKE OF OUR PRECIOUS CHILDREN:

THIS GAY TERRORIST NEWSPAPER MUST BE STOPPED!

Of course...these people are simply absolutely BLIND and IGNORANT as to how the world works, and the political elite prefer it this way...for it causes us to first have to get through a virtual impenetrable wall of ignorance before we can even begin to deal with the core of any given issues.

We can be assured that these Christians are funded by Noahidists if we could only get through the clutter of the deliberate confusion...in the meantime, we can be assured equally that these people and their intolerant views will remain a blight upon the greater dignity of the human race which these people seek to trample underfoot.

There is a reason what peace is called Shalom in Hebrew. When you reverse it, the word become Molas(h)ses, or the rather self evident truth that the believers of the Jewish god shall never bring peace but shall seek to impose intolerance and biggotry with nearly every breath they breathe.

The Fetch
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h3r
23:10 / 07.05.04
outlandish success of the PR machine that has drummed that term into all of our heads to jump and yell "NAZI!" as soon as someone says anything remotely slanting towards (or even in reference to as a group) "jews" is quite frightening to me.
thank you cusm!!! that was one of my main reasons for participating in the discussion as sort of a devil's advocate.
(seems we are on the same page, heres one for synchronicity: I also happened to watch the disinfo DVDs last night!!!)

on the other hand I do see the logic of locking a thread for the cool-off effect now.thnx fopr pointing it out cusm. Illmatic is a moderator for a reason and did use good judgment.

The thread descended into me, Maitreya, Mordant', Stoatie, Illmatic et al. trying to coax some kind of definitive statement out of him
phex, thats how it must have looked to you, but not to me.
not trying to defy you, but would like to point out that there are differnet ways of perceiving the same scenario, witout either perspective having to be wrong despite apparent contradictions/disagreements...
I did not see the lot of you anti-fetches engaging in what you refer to as anormally liberal and (more importantly) rational discussion group....
I think everyone has realized by now that Fetch has made statement that he cant or wont back up. no point in repeating this.

instead of 'debate' he took as a personal attack and began trolling other members
this only happened after repeated attacks and obvious misinterpretation of his posts.
he kept his cool for a while. I can empathize with his final reactions even though they were truly heated and snippy. his back against the wall, a group of sorcerers ganging up on him, the pressure must have gotten too much!!

all this reminds me of the infamous birth = {me, you, we} / namshub threads that got many of us all wiled up. including myself, i got quite pissy and snippy if i remember correctly. with hindsight it was a very educational experience though, i hope the same we shall say about this whole thing we got going here!

At this point I choose to evaluate the discussions so far as a reality breaching experiment that came into existence on its own accord. which defies the definition of a RBE, but i guess barbelith has given birth to something new, the self-dynamic-reality breaching-situation.

peace
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
06:27 / 08.05.04
Given the context of the otherboardly (if there's such a word) stuff Tom's quoted above, I don't actually think we were misinterpreting him.

If anything, I think we were underestimating the level of unpleasantness that was being achieved in his posts.
 
 
Z. deScathach
08:11 / 08.05.04
I've been following the discussion on the previous thread for some time now, and had made a choice to stay out of it, as it has been my experience that arguing with such persons is usually a fruitless exercise, (although when Fletch began to wax messianic, I was sorely tempted). I've argued against those positions on other lists in the past. Still, I am disturbed by what has happened here. I read the above posts that were culled from other message boards, and as a queer female, found myself rankled. Still, in the previous thread I did not find those stements to be that extreme. To equate the statements, "Lesbians should be fed to Alsations", or "Niggers should be broken in with tire-irons" to the statements that Fletch made in the previous thread,(Tom Coates, in post above), is not logical. One directly advocates doing violence, while the other is expousing controversial rhetoric. As for Fletch's posts to the other boards, those are Fletch's posts to other boards. IMO, we should be focussing on what Fletch is saying in THIS board. If Fletch has been harrasing members through emails or PM's, that is an entirely different manner, and certainly warrants action. The under-current of anti-semitism in Fletch's posts was clear to me. Still, I did not see anything in his statements that warranted banning or for that matter locking the thread. I'm also disturbed by the idea of researching an individuals past posts to other boards in order to make a case for their banning. People can and do change, sometimes all at once and sometimes slowly. In the universe, change is about the only thing that is a constant. Robert Anton Wilson is frequently quoted on this site, and he was always one to argue against the cognitive spooks of essentialist doctrine. We are saying that because Fletch has posted these things in the past, THAT is what he IS. I came to Barbelith because it seemed like a place that would accept controversial debate. As a chaos mage, I've been debated on pagan message boards because of my ideas on the use of defensive magick. Barbelith always seemed like a place where people could safely debate issues. I saw another thread locked because it was "icky". So I ask, what direction is this board going in?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:37 / 08.05.04
I have to admit, despite my feelings on the matter, I'm still not totally happy with the locking/banning tactic.

HOWEVER... I don't think what's happened here is that someone's been judged on what they say on other boards... otherwise a LOT of us would, I imagine, be fucked. It's more that there was a small amount of room for interpretation of Fetch's position on this... and Fetch was being very obtuse at actually clarifying matters... statements made elsewhere did throw some light onto what was more likely to be meant, and removed some of the "wiggle room".

For example (and I'm afraid it's a reductio ad absurdam again; I'm NOT claiming parallels here, just illustrating the logic) Barbara Wodehouse says "bitch". You don't know who she is. Eminem says "bitch". You don't know who he is. Neither explain themselves. On finding out what they USUALLY mean by this, you can come to some kind of understanding of what they were on about when they were talking to you.

I do think, however, all other things taken as even, this does have a case for being moved to the Policy... I'm not a Temple regular (although I do lurk a lot) but I get the impression that fighting may best be taken outside- I imagine anyone who hasn't yet read this thread but has a grievance will go to the Policy anyway.
 
 
Seth
08:44 / 08.05.04
It's not going in any direction that I can see. These moderation actions are pretty much par for the course for the way the board has been since I came here three years ago. We have the least intrusive moderation of any board I've seen, and it's distributed to prevent individuals abusing their janitor role.
 
 
raelianautopsy
11:32 / 08.05.04
Well, their sure is a lot of hooplah over this. I'd like to put in my two cents:

But first I want to get out of the way something I meant to say in the previous thread, but now I can't. I for one am sick of all those people that ridicule anyone for considering conspiracy theories. I thought this was supposed to be the Occult section. The OCCULT, with mysticm and spirituality and other nonesense. There are plenty of wierd ideas all over this website. Is chaos magic and all that any less silly and unrealistic as the idea that politicians are secretely part of the New World Order?

What the hell is so wrong with experimenting around different theories about what's going on behind the scenes? I firmly believe, my intuition just tells me so, that the majority of the images we are shown about the world are superficial lies. It's not just about conspiracies, its also about the realm of spirituallity and higher dimensional reality. There has to be more to the universe than what it seems at first glance. And I think its goes further than just radical politics and mainstream New Age thought. That being said, in this lifetime I will probibly never find out what the real truth is. But I can still be fascinated by seeking out different possibilities of what the world may be. Reptillian shape-shifters are as good an explenation as any for why everything is so screwed up. To me its just one possibility.

In concrete matters, people should hold strong opinions. But in this vague stuff people should be more open-minded to the various scenarios. Why must everyone either subscribe 100% to Conspiracy Theory 101 or disagree 100%? I'm no journalist, so I don't care if my source is always totally reliable. If I want to look at the Protocols and say on some points they might be prophetic, that doesn't necessarily make me a racist. If I learn something about, say, Henry Kissinger on a far-right anti-Jew publication it doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything else they espouse. If I learn something about George Bush from David Icke's books, that does not mean I have to believe he is a Reptillian Anunnaki that rapes children (although honestly I can't totally rule that out). Its supposed to be vague and 'secret' information, so all kinds of nuts are going to interprate it their own way. But you can still find a lot to be learned from the conspiracy scene, its just one more alternative media outlet.

-ahem-

But let me comment on the actual topic at hand. Why is this such a big deal to take so seriously with shutting down a thread and kicking off members? Maybe Fetch is a racist, and maybe he isn't. But this is all just a stupid message board website. We're all just nerds that spend too much time in front of the computer. By 'punishing' Fetch or whatever, you're not really fighting racism. Sorry to kill your self-righteous buzz, but nothing in the real world is any different. Fetch is not going to convert because of this, and no one is really going to care. So just live and let live. It's only a message board, so let people vent who cares if someones a 'troll'. It just seems that people are taking this way too seriously, though I guess that goes for me too. So let's all lighten up.

(And these are just my own opinions. You don't have to agree, I'm just throwing them out there. Isn't that the point?)
 
 
illmatic
11:49 / 08.05.04
Quick clarification to some of the points above - one of the reasons I suggested locking the thread above was looking at threads on other boards it became clear that Fetch wasn't open to any sort of debate or persuasion, and to contest his point of view just led to abuse and personal attacks. Follow the links above and check out his various other contributions of you don't believe me. I concede that looking at other boards is a bit "sneaky" but, in this case, fuck it - he's a hateful bigot, has made pretty much zero attempt to engage with anyone else here, and I'm glad to see the back of him. Tom pays the bills, is legally responsible for what gets posted here, so as he rightly says, why should he give someone like that a platform.

Raelianautospy's - no one is trying to say discussing conspiracy theory is out of bounds. I personally think it's useful and valuable at times, and delusive at others - pretty much set out my view in the other thread. I just didn't consider it was worth the time and bandwidth to continue an argument with someone so deeply predjudiced.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
13:05 / 08.05.04
the outlandish success of the PR machine that has drummed that term into all of our heads to jump and yell "NAZI!" as soon as someone says anything remotely slanting towards (or even in reference to as a group) "jews" is quite frightening to me.

Okay, one more time.

The PofZ is not 'slanting towards..."jews"'. It is a document written from the point of veiw of a supposed council of jewish elders, talking about how well their Jewish World Domination is going so far and kicking around a few ideas as to how they can better oppress the Goyim.

There is no reason to invoke it at all, since most of the document is plagarized from an earlier French satire (which refers to a global plot but does not go so far as to name the jews as the plotters.) No reason, that is, except to whip up hate against the Jews.

If you want to talk about some obscure group or other controlling the world, there are plen-tee of other texts that talk about secret groups who control the world and do not specifically refer to a jewish plot. Therefore if you pick the text that does specifically refer to a Jewish plot, either

a) You have not read the text, or
b) You don't much like jews and want to get other people to feel the same way.

That's not jumping up and down shouting "Nazi!", it's simply a rational deduction.
 
 
Olulabelle
16:31 / 08.05.04
HOWEVER... I don't think what's happened here is that someone's been judged on what they say on other boards... otherwise a LOT of us would, I imagine, be fucked.

and

I concede that looking at other boards is a bit "sneaky" but, in this case, fuck it - he's a hateful bigot, has made pretty much zero attempt to engage with anyone else here, and I'm glad to see the back of him.

Previous to this issue I would have agreed that looking at other message boards is unfair, but now I don't know. I mean, up till now I thought The Fetch was just a seriously brainy person who ranted a lot and did a lot of confusing things with numbers. Now I've read the things he has said on other boards I am amazed at how I misread him and I find it slightly disconcerting that due to the anonymous nature of messageboards, one can enter into discussion with another person and presume them to be something, when in fact they turn out to be the sort of person you would do everything to avoid IRL.

So Illmatic's bringing this to light is a good thing I think, because as a lot of people have pointed out The Fetch has never really entered into any kind of community discussion and as a consequence it was very difficult to distinguish what kind of a person he was.

However, I do think that thread is interesting, a lot of people wrote good things in it and there are some useful links. Possibly, if The Fetch hadn't started it those things would not have been said and the links would not have been posted, so it's a strange situation.

On the one hand I disliked The Fetch's comments, but on the other, the debate it created made fascinating reading, I found it valuable and I learnt some things I didn't know. If there aren't 'The Fetch's' around to rile people, people don't generally get into that sort of heated discussion and the ensuing debate is lost.

Which isn't such a great thing.
 
 
Char Aina
17:17 / 08.05.04
i agree.
conflict is a great agent for change and therefore progression.
although anti semitism is clearly not very progressive, i have learned from the site's collision with it. i feel that perhaps a "we've heard your shit before" attitude is at work here, and its only reasonable that i point out i hadnt heard all that shit.
i am familiar with the idea that people like fetch exist, but not as familiar with how they present themselves.


sure, i could go and hang out on a white power website.
but if i did, i wouldnt get to read you guys taking the larger arguments to pieces and mocking those which need no dismantling.

i wonder how much real hurt one anti-semite causes to the jewish contingent here, with so many voices of reason shooting down all his nonsense.

it feels like a bunch of dogs being offended that a cat is allowed into their garden, even though the net result is shredded feline.


my2cents, YMMV, yadda mcyadda.
 
 
Unconditional Love
17:43 / 08.05.04
hmmm,

do you not think your confusing words with reality here, people can rant about anything, no matter how offensive it may be to others, at the end of the day there just words, and yes they can hurt and i can be hurt by them and offended, but thats only when i cling to my own words and mistake them for a reality.( or mistake the words in my mind as my identity)

censorship from libetarian or authoritarian ends becomes the same " shut the fuck up" in different packaging.

how many people world wide are confusing these chat rooms for reality? or anything presented on the web for that matter.

its just information isnt it, whatever take you put on it is entirely subjective, isnt it?
 
 
Salamander
17:46 / 08.05.04
I wouldn't say I've jumped ship yet h3r, but I have the life preserver on, anyway...

... I have no problem with the policys of this board on what is and is not exceptable, but the lock and censorship to me seems like the acts of those who cannot refute the position of another, is The Fetch guilty of creating an uncomfortable atmosphere? Maybe, probably, considering that I'm writing on this post about that post in which so many dubious things were said. And it is true that the Fetch uses our humble 'lith as a soapbox for many an inane and obtusly explained numerological theory. In the end I think if the Fetch actually has anti-semetic leanings, if he could agree to keep them to himself, I would not mind continueing to see his posts, otherwise, I would have to agree about at least some of the censorship issues brought up all ready. This is after all a voluntary community, and I didn't mean to challenge the athorities at all(yes I did), but we are all rational people who can settle these matters rationally, I guess I just wanted to express my disappointment in all parties involved, him, us, I would like to think that this could have been settled in a more tastful manner, but in the end, not everything can be tasteful, not everyone is rational, this is all I'm going to say about this. I wish you all well and hope that none departs from our company over this, it would be a shame, to let raging emotions sunder such a pretty thing. But I still have the life vest on...
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
18:05 / 08.05.04
the lock and censorship to me seems like the acts of those who cannot refute the position of another

The word censorship keeps getting bandied about here. I wonder exactly what it means, since the thread, whilst locked, is still in existence, the posts still readable and unaltered. (Hey, you've even been provided with some extra material by the same poster, complete with links.)

Reading back over the thread, some cogent arguments seem to have been offered against various points made by the thread starter, and these do not seem to have been effectively refuted.

From my (no doubt compromised) perspective, it looks more like the acts of those who think the Temple could do without yet another 12-page shitstorm.
 
 
Char Aina
18:34 / 08.05.04
how many people world wide are confusing these chat rooms for reality?

this site is reality, even though reality is not this site.
stoatie could probably do you a venn diagram, if you ask nicely.
 
 
Char Aina
18:46 / 08.05.04
it looks more like the acts of those who think the Temple could do without yet another 12-page shitstorm.

thats roughly how i read it, but i disagree with the basic premise(i wouldnt say it was likely to be a shitstormeither, but i get your gist). a back and forth between views is a good way to further understand the ways of your belief-opposite, for me the ideology of antisemites.

as rage said a forum or two over, some khaotes you lot are.
if you dont understand where his belief comes from, and how it is constructed, you lose an aspect to your own mind and your understanding of the world. (perhaps 'fail to gain' is better than lose?)

fighting him as if he were a highly communicable infectious disease is a mistake, i believe.
dont quarantine him; let us all become infected slightly by his mania and then let our intelectual antibodies destroy the same, strengthening us against his sort in the future.

this is one of the safest spaces to engage an antisemitic moron, if you think about it. here he has no flamethrowing back up.
 
 
Char Aina
19:04 / 08.05.04
I wonder exactly what it means, since the thread, whilst locked, is still in existence, the posts still readable and unaltered.

perhaps a potential consorship? censoring views he may have espoused further down the line, on the grounds that we dont need any more than we have already seen?
 
 
macrophage
19:32 / 08.05.04
I've been away fer a wee while - to tell you the truth I didn't goto the NWO thread, I immersed myself in the quagmire that constitutes conspiracy theories fer years, and I managed to ascend that abyss of obsessional scapegoatery. Whereas I may not agree with the Middle East fiasco, I doubt that anyone should sign up with a pseudo-syphilitic mania for racist credos. Some people thinking that they have freed themselves from the swamp of robotoid question nothing behaviours have been duped by their fascist ideological peers. Social Darwinists who'd love to live in a simalacrum theme park where only one race lives that just breed purely fer race sake who can not even comprehend globalism in lieu of people getting on - hence, a better world! Conspiracists operate in a gloomy atmosphere. As a fave Dutch band of mine called PANDEMONIUM said "WIR FAHREN GEGEN NAZIS!!!!" (ie we will fight the nazis). Fuck Fascism - We Are All Islands.
 
 
raelianautopsy
19:47 / 08.05.04
Of course its censorship! The Fetch is blocked from posting, hence he is CENSORED.

And for the last time, the Protocols may not be written by Jews. The 'Elders of Zion' could actually refer to a specific secret society, such as the Priory of Sion. And maybe it all is just a cheap forgery of French Revolution parodies, but to say that parts of it might be true is not an inherently racist statement. Got it?
 
 
macrophage
19:56 / 08.05.04
As in regards to the infamous protocols they like many a religious, spiritual and occult text have dubious origins. Once you lend weght to any belief it grows relativistic to its memetic/media contagion. Assume nothing, and be aware of any hidden agendas.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:18 / 08.05.04

Nobody was right to call him anti-semetic either. To be anti-semetic he'd of had to include all the other semetic language speaking people, which he didn't.


Maitreya, it has been all of three days now since you learned the word "anti-Semitism". You still can't spell it. And you appear to have become confused about semitic in the ethnographic sense (one of the peoples legendarily descended from Shem) and the specific word "anti-Semite". From the Concise Oxford Dictionary:

A person hostile to or prejudiced against Jews.

Honestly, you should probably read around a bit before you wade into this one. Anti-Semitism is quite a complex and tricky concept and right now you're not getting it, which is only likely to confuse the issue.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

As far as I can see, the thread was locked because it was going nowhere. The Fetch was unable or unwilling to provide any substantiation of his claims, and the almost painful ignorance displayed by some of his defenders, currently repeating in a thread near you, was become increasingly abusive and pointless. One moderator proposed this, some others agreed. I don't see a problem. People have the freedom to kick off the same issues again if they really want to, as they are in this thread.

As for banning - more difficult. Personally, I don't think that just being a right-wing nutbar is necessarily a banning offence. Lying about some pretty big things - Nietzsche being Jewish, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion being a true tale of Jewish folk, and so on - either through ignorance or malice - is pretty bad form, but I don't know whether it's a banning offence. Certainly, people should not be banned for what they say on other message boards.

However. In this case, why was the Fetch banned? Is it because it was decided that he would wish to use Barbelith as a platform for his more extreme anti-Semitic and homphobic views, and so this was to cut him off before he did anything legally actionable as libel or incitement to racial hatred? Was it to protect the Magick forum moderators from harrassment? Was it that the views the Fetch had already espoused were sufficiently offensive to constitute racial harrassment? I'd imagine probably the latter - certainly, if you kids are so eager for conspiracy theories to make you feel special that you are ready to swallow nonsense like the Protocols, for example, then there are plenty of websites and discussion boards out there with a level of debate and a usage of punctuation that may be more your speed. Personally, I'm kind of OK with having, say, Holocaust deniers invited to leave, in part simply because Holocaust deniers tend not to be very interesting conversationalists.

So, was that why The Fetch was banned? I'm not sure. Personally, I would probably have locked the thread and seen whether he took the hint rather than banning him outright, but that's just my opinion, and I don't pay to run the board, so I don't have the final say in extraordinary circumstances about who does or does not post here.

Incidentally, is there any reason why this is not in the Policy, except the desire of the thread starter? It occurs to me that it is very definitely a matter of board policy, and those who do not frequent the Magick might have some interesting things to say...
 
 
h3r
04:55 / 09.05.04
haus , on one point we see eye to eye: lets move this topic away from the temple.
i second your suggestion at this point.
besides that, by now I'm only reading posts, I gave up trying to articulate anything...doesnt seem to work...
 
 
eye landed
07:14 / 09.05.04
I'm more disgusted by the censorship than by anybody's opinion.

Will I get banned if I say I hate people who molest children (sexual preference) or sacrifice my pet cat to Satan (religious affiliation)? What if my cats keep disappearing and I have a conspiracy theory about 'Satanists'? Who is deciding which minority groups deserve protection? A 'reasonable person' I hope!

On the other hand, we don't want any Barbemods going to jail.
 
  

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