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Ideology Is Good

 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
14:01 / 07.05.04
So this is spinning out of many things: a couple of things that have been said in the Images of Abortions thread; a conversation about the importance of "ideas v. people" that I had in the pub with a Barbelith member; my own sense that the demographic of Barbelith has now shifted to the point where people are more likely to identify themselves with relatively vague "liberal"/humanist sentiments than with specific political beliefs.

To start with, here's the bit from a post by sdv that got me thinking:

"[I]n events like the Iraq colonial (mis)adventure, you should start from the understanding that the domination of one group of people by an imperial state is wrong and not from the terrible fact of the 100s of thousands of people who have died in Iraq since Hussian was encouraged into power by the West. In actual fact if nobody had died (an impossible phantasy this) as a result of the imperial/colonial (mis)adventure it would still be utterly wrong because it always is."

This interests me because I suspect it will be anathema to many, but I think it's absolutely correct. And really important. (In this specific case, it's important because I think otherwise you risk holding a position that's based on events in Iraq having gone "badly" - as if there was an alternative where the war went "well", which would be okay...) The reason I think this is important is that I suspect that many people will have a kneejerk reaction to the phrase "the understanding that the domination of one group of people by an imperial state is wrong", because to them this reads as ideology. And ideology has connotations of political "extremism", of unwieldy dogma, of putting abstract theories ahead of practical realities or concern for other people. Ideology scary, crazy and bad!

I want to propose instead that the above connotations have been engineered for a Reason by people with an Agenda, and that an ideology is really just any organised collection of principles or beliefs. To lack an ideology, therefore, is to lack a pretty basic strategy for understanding the world around you. And I don't really think that there are many people, hardly any, who genuinely lack an ideology. It's just that the term has been distorted to apply only to certain ideologies: basically the ones that might motivate anyone to challenge dominant (and thus usually invisible) ideologies such as capitalism, so-called "moderate" secular liberal humanism, legitimised forms of racism such as immigration control, etc.

Who are the people telling us that having an ideology is an outdated and unhelpful thing? Well, for starters, there are people like New Labour, who claim to have abandonned a dogmatic left-wing ideology in favour of compassionate but practical policies... You know the routine, "the old divides of left and right do not apply anymore, blah blah thirdwaycakes". Whereas in fact it doesn't take an especially insightful observer to see that New Labour's policies are shaped by some very dogmatic ideologies indeed: whether it's Blair's Christian imperialism, Blunkett's overt racism, or the general fanatical adherence to privatisation and the privileging of big business interests over those of the public. That's just one example, but there are others...

Essentially, any time you want to shore up existing inequalities, one helpful way to discredit your opponents is to to accuse them of clinging to militant, out-of-date ideologies (feminism, socialism, "identity politics"). For those who claim that we live in a world in which all the battles for equality have now been won as much as they need to be, it makes sense that nobody should need an ideology that challenges the status quo, and anyone who admits to having one should be distrusted, even by people who claim to support the specific principles that make up that ideology (see: the effective demonisation of 'feminism', which leads some people to disavow the term whilst espousing the things it stands for).

Okay, this post is too long already, anyone want to take over or disagree?
 
 
Linus Dunce
21:46 / 07.05.04
So, anyone without an ideology is "moderate", pseudo-liberal/humanist anti-feminist? Right ...
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
21:59 / 07.05.04
what you're saying is nothing new..Most philosophers/critics/post-marxists came to the same conclusion years ago.. the term "Ideology" refers to any group of ideas within a collective (or something like that).. to reduce the term to the ideology of the ruling class is to forsake the power of our own ideologies.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
22:01 / 07.05.04
Linus:

No. I'm not sure if I was unclear or if you're simply wilfully misunderstanding what I wrote (I suspect the latter). My point is a) that pretty much everybody does in fact have an ideology, but b) the term 'ideology' has become a popular pejorative only applied to those ideologies which challenge dominant ideologies and are thus more visible.
 
 
Lurid Archive
22:44 / 07.05.04
In a sense, Fly, I disagree with you very strongly indeed. But in another sense, this disagreement merely stems from my own, quite different, ideology. In that second sense, I can easily agree with your general point about the necessity of ideology. Let me unpack that a little.

The bit I disagree with is exactly the bit you flagged, but I think your comment in paranthesis was pretty interesting.

In this specific case, it's important [to oppose the Iraq war on anti-imperialist grounds] because I think otherwise you risk holding a position that's based on events in Iraq having gone "badly" - as if there was an alternative where the war went "well", which would be okay...

I think the morality of a war, or any action, should depend on your best predictions made at the time. Immoral actions can produce beneficial results and moral actions disastrous results. I can be pleased with results while objecting to an action.

This makes things complicated because some predictions can claim justification in the light of subsequent events, while not actually having been better founded. But equally, if one makes a series of roughly analagous predictions that are born out by events, then this is a justification for those predictions.

How does this apply to Iraq? Well, I am happy that Saddam Hussein is gone and that if the casualties had been low and postwar were going well (and I'm slightly baffled by your use of scare quotes. Implausibility?), this would be a significant improvement. Now, you shouldn't praise a gambler for betting his life savings if he wins, while condemning him if he loses. Fair enough. But it depends on the odds.

I mean, why is imperialism bad? Is it a wrong in itself? Sure, I can accept that (to a limited degree). Is it wrong because of the history of consequences, both in terms of lives lost and abused? Sure, that seems reasonable.

But are we saying that, even if there were a use of imperialism - a word that is surely subject to a lot of dispute in it's usage - that we could plausibly predict would save lives, that would be wrong? Are we saying that no matter what the consequences of the war, even if there were minimal casualties and a relatively peaceful postwar settlement, that this should have no bearing on how we subsequently regard imperialist actions? Are we saying that no humantarian effort (a much abused term, which is surely difficult to separate from imperialism) can ever be justified? Is the support of human rights to be condemned if these clash with local cultures?

Now, one could dismiss some of these questions as having no bearing on reality. Imperialism is always brutal. True humanitarianism is not imperialist. But how does one arrive at the former position if consequences are considered irrelevant? Draw a line at some arbitrary point in history and declare that we now know imperialism to be wrong and it can never be justified? And how can one realistically support the latter position?

You see, by my ideology, consequences matter a great deal. Theoretical objections are fine as long as they are grounded in some plausible slice of empirical fact and cannot, by themselves, trump all considerations of human suffering.

I think that if no one had died in Iraq, I would have welcomed the outcome and had a very serious look at the basis for my objections. If you are really saying that that situation would give you no cause for reflection, then your morality is pretty incomprehensible to me.
 
 
Linus Dunce
22:57 / 07.05.04
Flyboy -- if it is, as you say, that everyone has an ideology, yet it is, as you say, only the ruling class that accuses anyone of having one, then who is it at fault? Who is lacking?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:41 / 08.05.04
Very briefly so as to be coherent...

I think that if no one had died in Iraq, I would have welcomed the outcome and had a very serious look at the basis for my objections

And if one person had died, (because any loss of life by the hands of those troops was unnecessary imo) what then? Where do you draw the line Lurid, at the numbers being equal to the loss of life during Sadaam's regime? At the loss of life being less for British people than for Iraqis during the conflict? You're basing your judgement of what is fundamentally a political situation to anyone in the west on humanitarian ground but it's not about rights alone, there are myriad other reasons to be wary of a conflict of this sort. Are we happy being the peacekeeping force for the entire world all the time and should we be doing it? I don't know but I do know that our governments are picking and choosing the wrong conflicts to get involved in for what I perceive to be Imperialist reasons.
 
 
No star here laces
05:32 / 08.05.04
I totally applaud the attempt, fly, but I think you really need to define WHAT you mean by 'ideology' for this to make much sense.

To me, 'ideology' has exactly the connotations that you think have been foisted on it by the military-imperialist-talk radio complex - one-size-fits-all over-simplification, and dangerous purism.

Does this make me a puppet? I don't think so. Because it's exactly the reason I have a problem with said neo-liberal democracy-rah rah rah thinking. The problem with the people in power is they believe that the same panaceas work everywhere for every problem - free trade, privatisation, competition and open elections. I'm sure I don't need to cite every reason why this isn't the case.

And why doesn't this work? Because it's right-wing? Because it's laissez-faire? No. It's got nothing to do with principles, or the reasons why people think that it works - there are very good arguments for free trade etc.

But it doesn't work as the saviour of the world for exactly the same fuckin reasons that marxism doesn't or hippy-dippy bullshit doesn't.

YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE SOLUTION FOR EVERY PROBLEM.

Furthermore - the one thing I'm sure we can all agree about the world is that it's a very complex place. There are always factors there that we cannot make fit into our nice neat systems of thought.

And I agree with you - vested interests do use the trope of "idealism=bad" to dismiss objections to their actions. But just cause bad people say it, doesn't make their argument wrong, for exactly the same reasons that Kanye West doesn't suck just because white people like him...
 
 
40%
07:43 / 08.05.04
vested interests do use the trope of "idealism=bad"

Sorry, are we discussing idealism here? I thought we were discussing ideology. Did the two words become interchangeable without me noticing?


I suspect that many people will have a kneejerk reaction to the phrase "the understanding that the domination of one group of people by an imperial state is wrong", because to them this reads as ideology. And ideology has connotations…

To me that phrase is a statement of principle. Saying something is right or wrong regardless of the practical consequences is a principle. An ideology is “a body of ideas”, according to the dictionary. So the question is, why does the statement ‘read to them as ideology’? Is it because people may associate this one particular idea with a particular body of ideas which they see as an implicit driving force behind it? Or is it simply because they are so wary of ideologies generally that they even eschew principles, the basic building blocks of an ideology? This expectation that some will have a kneejerk reaction seems like a product of your worldview, Fly, so maybe you could explain further why you expect people to have this reaction? It certainly doesn’t seem natural to me.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
08:58 / 08.05.04
If everything is ideology and all positions are ideological - and on the whole I'd say that this is true - then where does truth come into the equation?

Ideology, when the term is used by neo-liberals and neo-cons, and they have adopted a weird mutated version of the old Marxist definition of ideology that claims that: Ideology is a false set of ideas that hides the objective political and economic conditions from potentially active subjects... Excepting that 'truth' for the 'execrable ones' is pragmatic and always contingent. Where normally truth and ideology are placed as opposing poles with truth being either synonomous with science, correctness or more interestingly recently with fidelity to an event.

So if all is ideology then are you prepared to give up truth ?
 
 
sdv (non-human)
09:25 / 08.05.04
Lurid

"the morality of a war, or any action, should depend on your best predictions made at the time. Immoral actions can produce beneficial results and moral actions disastrous results."

The specific case in question the Iraq war cannot be argued to be a moral war. Moral wars are quite rare, arguably the 1939-45 war was in the main a moral war, whereas the second Iraq war certainly was not. The second sentence: "Immoral actions can produce beneficial results and moral actions disastrous results." This appears to be a mere truism and I can't see why the end results are relevant excepting in the case where you support the actin and then realise pragmatically that the costs and results are worse than you imagined. This is not a moral/ethical perspective is it...

I don't like the logic of the paragraph that begins ... "But are we saying that, even if there were a use of imperialism..." and then goes on to suggest that humanitarian efforts and human rights are in some sense equatable with imperialism. As if the locking up of people without trial in Belmarsh or the bombing of F... can be justified because now the state is allowing some children in Iraq to have anti-biotics and an imposed system of Government. More absurd than this is to follow the logic and imagine that 'food-aid' is in some sense morally equivilant to an act of gross imperialism. This is just not right, if you want to justify imperialism then do so but don't mess around by pretending that humanitarian efforts, human rights are in the slightest bit related to colonialism, excepting that they are oppositional.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:22 / 08.05.04
I think Jefe makes a very good point, above, that should be addressed. I have no particular attchment to the word "ideology" myself. Moving on,

Where do you draw the line Lurid, at the numbers being equal to the loss of life during Sadaam's regime? - Anna de L

Well, as briefly as I can, while I concede that pacifism is a defensible position, I am not one. So, in justifying a war, I think one weighs the potential harm and benefits. For instance, if one can act to prevent a serious loss of life (like genocide) while causing a minimum of harm, then one can start to argue for military intervention. This kind of assessment needs to take into account medium term harm as well as direct casualties. One should only employ the military as a last resort, in my view, and other factors need to be considered. In Iraq, the case wasn't even close to being made, because the predicted harm far outweighed the potential benefit.

These are difficult questions, of course, but in my view the death and suffering caused is the central issue, not that of imperialism.

sdv:

This appears to be a mere truism

Absolutely right.

and I can't see why the end results are relevant excepting in the case where you support the actin and then realise pragmatically that the costs and results are worse than you imagined.

You can't see that consistently, or even vastly, overestimating the human costs of an action might be cause for reflection? I see what you are saying, I think, and I broadly agreed in my last post with a couple of qualifications.


I don't like... [the suggestion] that humanitarian efforts and human rights are in some sense equatable with imperialism. As if the locking up of people without trial in Belmarsh or the bombing of F... can be justified because now the state is allowing some children in Iraq to have anti-biotics and an imposed system of Government.

It depends what you mean by imperialism. I have frequently heard the deployment of aid criticised, justifiably in my view, as imperialist. You say this is absurd, but the heavy criticisms of the IMF, say, leave me unable to see the absurdity.

The same goes for humanitarian intervention. Even Human rights organisations will concede that it is unrealistic to be in support of humanitarian intervention in principle, but opposed in practice if the motives of the actors are suspect. Nations operate out of self interest. And I've often heard it claimed that the imposition of our values on other cultures is imperialist - again, I think that is defensible - and the support of human rights seems a clear example of this.

Perhaps you mean something different by "imperialism"? I suspect this is so, but I think you are misusing the word.

Also, please note that I am not justifying anything you mention. I just seem to disagree with it on a different basis.
 
 
Chantily Lace
11:30 / 08.05.04
Heya Flyboy,

Just some thoughts/ideas/questions spurred from your inital post:

Does the dynamic you're articulating - the ideology-is-bad ideology - involve the tendency to assert 'practical/pragmatic' concerns as more valid over supposedly ideal or theoretical? That the former is addressing 'reality' while the latter is somehow just intellectual or abstract? When perhaps the framing of what is pragmatic is just as fictional as the ideology?

I'm trying to get down a dynamic I've noticed that I think might relate to the one you're discussing.

The idea that 'imperialist action by a state over a people' is not as valid as 'saving lives' because the former doesn't have the same status of reality. Except that I'm not sure who or how or when the criteria for reality got decided. The idea that pragmatism always trumps idealism (ideology?) because it has results that can be pointed to, or has explainations that take less words or context.

I'm not sure I'm totally on the same track as you, and I don't what to take your words too far afield, but am curious.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
16:00 / 08.05.04
Hmm. I'm given to understand that it's hegemony which is the Beast, with ideology being nicely rehabilitated already, thank you. No?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:37 / 08.05.04
while I concede that pacifism is a defensible position, I am not one. So, in justifying a war, I think one weighs the potential harm and benefits

But you misunderstand the point I was trying to erm... umbrella my post with. Clearly I was rather incoherent.

So how would Kant react or one of the Mill's if they heard your reasoning? They would say that you cannot predict the future, it's impossible and you're making an objection that is immoral and unjust because your decision isn't rational. In assuming an outcome you could be completely wrong and so your decisions should be based on the facts at any one time and rather apart from any sense of pacifist thought, a life lost becomes unreasonable because of the original injustice of the move to war (or other action that brings up similar questions).

This is why ideology is important, it provides the basis for our actions and ideology needs to be geared around what we know not what could be. The present is always more important than the future because we know little about the future and a fair amount about what is happening now.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
23:31 / 08.05.04
Lurid

There are as you imply a number of classic definitions of imperialism and colonialism. For my purposes I think the early 20th C definition is as good as any.

In the 19th century - the project of modernity and the enlightenment phantasized that it could construct and legitimise a civilising mission, the goal of which was to bring the law to all lands. This project was the project of imperialism in its western form and in allaince with capital, in which the whole world was transformed materially, culturally and economically. At least until you begin to have to address neo-colonialism and most recently post-colonial theory this position is adequate. Even now we can see the spectres of the 19th C enlightenment walking across the fields of Iraq and Afghanistan. (The imposition of our values is precisely this - whether it is US feminists unthinkingly supporting the invasion of Afghanistan or the destruction of democracy in Iran and Iaq in the 1950s and 60s...)

Imperialism has it's typical accomplishments - the rivalry of capitalist states for colonies and neo-colonial spheres of influence, investment possibilities for European, North American and Pacific Rim investment and raw-material resources, capital export, armaments. The globalising aspects of recent activity, IMF, WTO etc have enforced neo-liberal economic policies on poor countries to an appalling cost but have not changed the fundamental aspcts of the project. But whilst the colonial system has changed dramatically over the past 150 years it's also obvious that the costs of system are being carried as much by the citizins and subjects of the imperial powers as by the colonized.

However a discussion in full of the institutions of 'empire' (reference to Negri/Hardt intended) IMF, WTO etc should I think wait until the term ideology can be seen by everyone in the justificatory discourses of the collapsing institutions.

The question of 'aid' and humantitarian intervention should also wait until it actually begins to happen... Have't noticed any myself.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
06:59 / 09.05.04
Hmmm. I think it should be possible to critique the right-wing critique of ideology' without giving up on a critique of idealogy per se. Ie, the difficulties posed by 'having' an ideology and then needing to deal with practical contingencies where one's beliefs don't... This is a problem.

"ideology has connotations of political "extremism", of unwieldy dogma, of putting abstract theories ahead of practical realities or concern for other people. Ideology scary, crazy and bad!"

Yes it does, but those criticisms don't just come from the right. They come from the radical left, too, and many of the most refined critiques of Ideology came from the specificity of left 'communist' tendencies in France and elsewhere dealing with the realities of Stalinism. Ie, Althusser, Foucault, Derrida, to name a few. This is where at least one strand of materialism emerges.

"An ideology is really just any organised collection of principles or beliefs. To lack an ideology, therefore, is to lack a pretty basic strategy for understanding the world around you."

I disagree. I think it's important to have ethics, and to be politically honest, in the sense that obviously I think of my existence in the world as a responsibility to prevent, if I can, (some of) the injustices of the world. On the other hand, the possibility of having a defined set of beliefs depends on re-instituting a liberal rationalist subject. If people's motives are not always (or perhaps ever) transparent to themselves, how does one even think the concept of a 'defined set of beliefs'?

Perhaps it's your definition of ideology I am having trouble with, and Althusser's ideas about ideology might be useful here. Althusser speaks of ideology as something people are already and always 'affected' by: one cannot be outside ideology, because language *is* ideology, and we cannot think outside language. Further, Althusser insisted that rather than representing 'beliefs', ideology exists in apparatuses and practices, ie the ways that bodies are regulated, if you want to use a Foucauldian phrase. Therefore, New Labor has just 'changed' its ideology, it hasn't escaped ideology altogether -- new 'disciplinary regimes' have emerged with different subjects (the asylum-seeker, the terrorist, the 'woman after feminism', etc).

I don't have much time, unfortunately, but I can suggest a really good 'Althusser on Ideology' primer.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
09:55 / 10.05.04
Still in Anti-Althussarian mode after all these years... Perhaps it's merely my dislike for the idea that for radical thought to be legitimised it has to align itself to some strange notion that 'Marxism is a science' and is further dependent on Lacanian Psychoanalysis, which if wrong delegitmises the entirity of the theory.

More probably however it's just that I really don't want to lose the idea of 'false consciousness'. Even more likely I'm simply biased towards Debord as a radical marxist thinker rather than Althussar who is so so conservative...

"Ideology is the basis of the thought of a class society in the conflict-laden course of history. Ideological facts were never a simple chimaera, but rather a deformed consciousness of realities, and in this form they have been real factors which set in motion real deforming acts; all the more so when the materialization, in the form of spectacle, of the ideology brought about by the concrete success of autonomized economic production in practice confounds social reality with an ideology which has tailored all reality in terms of its model...." (212)
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:35 / 10.05.04
So how would Kant react or one of the Mill's if they heard your reasoning? They would say that you cannot predict the future, it's impossible and you're making an objection that is immoral and unjust because your decision isn't rational. In assuming an outcome you could be completely wrong - Anna de L

Briefly, I think that if you cannot confidently predict the broad consequences of such a destructive exercise as a war, then you should oppose it. I think that is fairly basic morality, and has nothing to do with considerations of imperialism. If you feel that consequences can never be satisfactorily predicted, then you should be a pacifist. This is like objecting to a surgeon performing a dangerous operation when you have no idea if it will help the patient. The motives of the doctor and the wider context of medical practice just aren't relevent.

Personally, I think one can predict with reasonable confidence, the effects of many wars. I could argue this at length, but suffice to say that I am not alone and I have not been surprised by much that has happened in Iraq. Basing morality on that kind of prediction is risky, of course, which is why one needs to be open to admitting mistakes. Thats why looking at what actually happens is crucial.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
03:27 / 11.05.04
"More probably however it's just that I really don't want to lose the idea of 'false consciousness'."

Can I ask why? This might be construed as outside the whole question of ideology, but I think it's quite central...
 
 
sdv (non-human)
16:39 / 11.05.04
An interesting question, which I'll try and respond to as briefly as possible. The following quote from Adorno seems to be the core of the problem - “The concept of ideology makes sense only in relation to the truth or untruth of what it refers to. There can be no talk of socially necessary delusions except in regard to what would not be a delusion... “

Any theorisation of Ideology should address the most elementary definition of ideology which is probably the phrase from Marx: "...they do not know it, but they are doing it..." The concept of ideology implies a basic simplicity, which contains the misrecognition of the ideologies own presuppositions. Including the distance between our social reality and the distorted representation which is our false consciousness of it. This is why an ideology can be interrogated and critqued through a critical process. The intention being to take an ideologically infected consciousness to a point where it might percieve its own distorted position and the social reality that is being misrecognised and distorted. The more complex versions of this understanding, for example by the Frankfurt School do of course recognise that it is not just a question of seeing things as they 'really are', not merely a question of throwing away the distorting spectacles of ideology, for it includes the recognition that (human) reality itself cannot be reproduced without this mystification.

As such then the reason why it is necessary to maintain the idea of 'false consciousness' or 'misrecognition' is that we now have to recognise that science is not truth but is also 'mere ideology'. False consciousness enables us to maintain the essential suspicious gaze on blatently ideological positions - that thought which assumes for example that science is a realism and engaged in a search for truth cannot maintain.

So then for example I would assume that any position that requires that a scientific statement be understood as a truth is attempting to maintain the specific science as a Royal or a State Science, removing it from the social.

Can you maintain this without FC or Misrecognition - almost certainly but I would not want to tie ideology to closely to theoretical conceptions which could end... hence the problem with Zizek, his concept of Ideology requires Lacanian psychoanalysis which may be wrong...

Is that clearer ?
 
 
Linus Dunce
19:30 / 11.05.04
Not really.
 
  
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