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So, what do you think of Israel?

  
  

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Rage
14:53 / 06.05.04
Have any of you been to Israel recently? I'm gonna be going for my birthright next month. I figure now is a great time to go because of the extreme political situation that's going on. It'll be a huge wake up call, if you know what I mean. Gonna go with an objective mindset... no political boxes or anything like that... just an absorption of what I see around me.

I wanted to ask you guys what you thought of the situation at hand and the massive anti-semitism that seems to be taking place worldwide. More. Than. Ever. You guys are leftists but you're also intelligentsia so I figure you're gonna do more than proclaim that America, the UK, and Israel are the trianlge of some evil conspiracy to cause WW3. From the Zionist perspective, Israel is the homeland of the Jews and should be kept for the Jews. "We want our own land and if you have a problem with that you can fuck off and die." This is the most radical/extreme political stance in the entire international spectrum. Even America hasn't gone this far. Regardless of how horrid the actions of Israel have been, one must admit that it takes a lot of courage to stick by any sort of agenda that the large large large majority of the world is utterly sickened by.

Checking out everything from the Jerusalum/Palestine indymedia center to the "Whizrahell" music scene to the holy fucking nationalism! it is obvious that we're dealing with an extremely complex situation. I, an ignorant 20 year old American, would like to hear what you barbelithians think about what's going on. Not just about the political situation but about the increasing hatred for Zionists (understandable due to their actions) which somehow leads to an increasing hatred for Jews. (NOT understandable) I will be the first to admit that "anti-semetic" is a label that was once put on people to discount/silence their honest claims that challenged bullshit national agendas, but we eventually reached a point where the majority of people realized that the mass media was using this term to manipulate public opinion.

NOW we're living in a time when pretty much anybody who doesn't support war or their government is talking shit about Israel AND Jewish people. The kid at the peace rally and the mom at the coffee shop and the technician at the business office. Some of these people obviously have good arguments against Zionism but many of them are blindly following opinion trends and saying nothing original whatsoever. In fact, they are spreading racist bigotry towards the Jewish people in the name of opposing the evil conspiracy. All so they can appear cool and anti. As a Jew, however twisted and "self hating" I might be, I find these racist actions to be beyond nauseating.

So... what do you guys think?
 
 
w1rebaby
15:59 / 06.05.04
I will be the first to admit that "anti-semetic" is a label that was once put on people to discount/silence their honest claims that challenged bullshit national agendas, but we eventually reached a point where the majority of people realized that the mass media was using this term to manipulate public opinion.

Well, no, we never reached that point, not as a society anyway. And it wasn't "once" put on people, it still is being put on people, increasingly I'd say.

NOW we're living in a time when pretty much anybody who doesn't support war or their government is talking shit about Israel AND Jewish people. The kid at the peace rally and the mom at the coffee shop and the technician at the business office.

I don't know where you're getting this from either, because it's not my experience at all. I know quite a number of people who do not approve of the Israeli government's actions who make it explicitly clear that they are not talking about Jews; a number are Jews themselves, and some are Israelis. Anyone who does turn up in such company talking about the Elders Of Zion gets the shit flamed out of them in nanoseconds, because we tend to be pretty anti-racist as well.

I see a lot of smug American conservatives who think they know that Europeans who oppose Israel are all doing it because they're anti-Semitic, it's part of their culture donchaknow, repressed guilt for the Holocaust or something, I read it in Vanity Fair. This is just ignorant psychobabble, but it's amazingly common, and as a European it pisses me the fuck off.

There does seem to be an increasing level of popularly-expressed anti-Semitism in some parts of the world; a lot of people just don't seem to be able or want to separate "Israel" from "Jews", which is something the Israeli govt encourages, and it worries the hell out of me, particularly with some governments apparently perfectly happy to ignore or encourage it to distract from their own failings. Don't look at us, look at Israel! We even have the neo-Nazis in England jumping on the bandwagon now and saying they support the Palestinians.

But saying that all, or even a notable majority, of anti-war etc protestors are doing it because they hate Jews is feeding exactly same sort of bullshit - that the state of Israel is synonymous with the Jewish people, when quite clearly it isn't.
 
 
Jester
16:05 / 06.05.04
I would dispute the idea that:

the increasing hatred for Zionists (understandable due to their actions) which somehow leads to an increasing hatred for Jews

I would suggest you read Palestine, by Joe Succo (it's a graphic novel, but he's a journalist...) before you go.

On my occasional visits to Israel, I've found it to be steeped in a racism of it's own, against arabs.

In fact, I think that claims that the world is becoming 'more anti-semitic' are wholly overblown. There is a difference between criticising Israeli policy, and the actions of the government (supported to a great degree by the public, in my experience) and hating Jews. I think zionists often play the anti-seminism card to dodge valid criticism.

The problem in Israel is that palestinian arabs and israeli arabs are considered and treated as second class citizens, if citizen is an appropriate word to use.

In the last New Left Review there was a chilling interview with a supposed champion of the Israeli left, which says a lot about the situation. He admitted - and was even a key person in uncovering - the war crimes the Israeli's have visited on the Palestinians and still do. Yet he was arguing this was justified. He was saying that Israel should expell all the Palestinians.

/end of rant
 
 
Rage
16:17 / 06.05.04
Dude. I'm reading Extreme Islam by Adam Parfrey now. My politics are chaos hopping. All I know is that I've been hearing a lot of progressives talk a lot of shit about Jewish people these days. More than ever. Deny it all you want, it's obvious.
 
 
w1rebaby
16:18 / 06.05.04
Stop hanging around with arseholes then.

There's no such thing as a "progressive".
 
 
Rage
16:33 / 06.05.04
I was gonna put progressives in quotation marks but I figured that would be redundant.

If the Israeli government is encouraging people to stop separating Jew and Zionist... shouldn't all these "progressives" (there we go) stop eating up their bait? You can hear some of them being all PC about it too and trying extra hard not to use the word "Jew" but some of them end up slipping and make *signs* that say shit like "End the Jewish monopoly on freedom." How do the Jews have a monopoly on freedom? Most Jews are liberal human rights activists who oppose all militant occupations that are currently taking place.

Yes, people are still called anti-semetic when they challenge the agendas of bullshit national interests, but more people realize this than ever before. In fact, the term has become nearly bunk to anyone left of center.
 
 
■
16:36 / 06.05.04
Joe Sacco, to be precise. and it's anti-semitism.
I think most people are able to make the distinction between anti-Zionism, anti-semitism, and "anti-everything-Sharon-does"ism.
The problem is that the media will usually need people in a position of authority to give strength to their stories and these tend to be people that need to simplify arguments for their own needs.
The current reaction to the hard line policies of Sharon is a very long way from simple anti-semitism. The arguments are political, economic and moral and are pretty complex, probably too complex for most news media to address clearly, so it gets reduced to Israel v Palestine or anti-semites v anti-arabs. Bring in the added complication of the PNAC people, and it all gets quite messy.
 
 
■
16:39 / 06.05.04
and I'm finding it _very_ hard to understand your arguments, btw.
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:42 / 06.05.04
Out of curiosity, Rage, do you count the Israeli presence in the Occupied Territories as a military occupation?

As to the rest, I think fridge has covered it well. I dunno, I *have* seen anti-semitism parading as objections to Israeli policy, but I really think it is the minority. Most people I know would react pretty strongly to anti-semitism.

And I think there is a clear interest for neo-cons and US militarists generally to want to claim that anti-semitism is both on the rise and behind all criticisms of Israel. Personally, I think this is all a way to deflect protest, as becomes apparent when you consider the situation in comparison to anti-arab feeling.
 
 
Ganesh
16:50 / 06.05.04
I'd second Palestine by Joe Sacco. Nice pictures too.

Xoc and I visited Israel in the mid-'90s, before Sharon's government really took hold. I'm ashamed to say I had very little sense of the political backstory at that time; I guess this meant that at least I was approaching the situation with a relatively open mind.

I think we both came away somewhat disgusted by what we perceived to be a low-level but pervasive anti-Arab prejudice. We were told - lectured, even - at length about a) how the Jews suffered during the Holocaust, and b) how they'd triumphed since then, in terms of Israel's wealth, traditions, the 'greening of the desert', etc., etc. Yet the Arabs were dismissed as slackers and thieves; we were warned not to talk to them or buy anything from them ("these men will rob you"). On a guided tour through Jerusalem's souks we were almost forcibly prevented from lingering at market stalls, and hurried on to the Government-approved shop, where we were free to buy all the gew-gaws we wanted. The frustrated desperation among the Arab tradesmen was palpable: these guys were merely trying to make a living.

This was a bog-standard package holiday. Needless to say, Palestine wasn't mentioned or even alluded to at all.
 
 
w1rebaby
17:07 / 06.05.04
Most people understand that being anti-Israeli-govt is not precisely the same as being anti-Semitic.

However, time and time and time again I meet up with the following thought pattern (usually in the US but not exclusively):

(a) anyone who is against the Israeli govt is doing it because they're anti-semitic - there's no other reason, right? that's what the media tells me;
(b) therefore there is no practical difference between anti-Semitism and opposing Israel;
(c) therefore you might as well use the same term.

This is intellectual laziness, a desire for simplistic explanations, an easy way to dismiss any opposing argument by reduction and a nice way of feeling morally superior to people who disagree with you. Can't bloody stand it, if I haven't made that clear enough, but it's the way political "debate" seems to be going. It's equivalent to "you're only disagreeing with the war in Iraq because you hate Bush" only a lot more offensive.

There's no point in denying that some people, both pro- and anti-Zionist/IDF/whatever, seem to have a hard time differentiating between the Israeli govt and Jewish people (you should hear some Christian fundies on the matter). This infuriates me, but it's not difficult to spot, and both sides are led by the same attitude. This is why I keep shouting "ISRAELI GOVT NOT EQUAL JEWISH PEOPLE" at the slightest hint of it.

However, unless I've been meeting with a very strange subset of people, and I think I've read and discussed reasonably widely here, I am fairly confident that the majority of Israel protestors do not subscribe to this.

(Ideological anti-Semites who masquerade as anti-Zionists/etc are a bit different; they're not coming from the position of "Israeli govt doing some bad things, Israeli govt represents Jews, what's up with Jews then?" - they're coming from the position of "Jews bad, therefore anything involving Jews bad". In other words, they're just seeing the Israeli govt as a subset of Jewish people, along with Jewish-owned businesses etc. The Israeli govt could be the sweetest most benevolent entity in the known universe and they'd still oppose it. To those people I tend to shout "FUCK OFF YOU NAZI" instead. Luckily they're not that common.)
 
 
Alex's Grandma
17:35 / 06.05.04
Yeah, I'd go along with Ganesh here. Ages ago now, as a youth of eighteen, I spent three months on kibbutz in the Golan Heights on a volunteer programme, where it was my pleasure and priviledge to work eight hour shifts in a rubber factory making anti-chemical warfare boots for the Israeli army. So ok, I'd have to admit to a certain bias here, but as a part of the trip, and as a treat, we were all shipped off to Tel Aviv at one point for three days of lectures on the history of modern-day Israel, at the end of which, and in the interests of balance, we got a two-hour talk from an arab intellectual, whose position, if I recall correctly, was that the state of Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth, the idea being that this was in some way representative of the Palestinian view generally. And then after that we went to the Holocaust museum. Really, as a tourist, you're just pretty much blitzed by pro-Israeli propaganda - whatever the merits of the arguments either way, this can't be a good thing.
 
 
Jester
17:54 / 06.05.04
If the Israeli government is encouraging people to stop separating Jew and Zionist... shouldn't all these "progressives" (there we go) stop eating up their bait?

I really don't know what you mean by this?

You can hear some of them being all PC about it too and trying extra hard not to use the word "Jew" but some of them end up slipping and make *signs* that say shit like "End the Jewish monopoly on freedom." How do the Jews have a monopoly on freedom? Most Jews are liberal human rights activists who oppose all militant occupations that are currently taking place.

I've not encountered that myself. I think part of the reason for this confusion of Jews and Zionists is that Israel is a Jewish state. If you're Jewish, you have a right to live there. Incursions onto Palestinian lands, and much of what has happened has been justified by religion and theology. There isn't a seperation between state and religion, in real terms, because the state is religious. Israel's citizens and founders have themselves created this situation where, to some extent, Israel is the state of the Jews, and thus in some way representative of the Jews. It's roughly equivilent to equating Germans with Nazis during WW2: both the flaws in that comparison, and the justification for it.

Thus, the confusions. However, many Jewish people *are* anti-Zionist, and critical of Sharon etc's appalling policies. Me, for example. Although I'm not religiously Jewish. Members of my family live in Israel, are palpably threatened by the bombing. I'm not an anti-semite. And my uncle is a good example. He refused to do military service in Israel many years ago, and went to prison for it.

However, I would agree with the concept that most (Israeli) Jews, and often Jews in the international community, have an ingrained idea that freedom for them is a justification for depriving palestinian and israeli arabs of that freedom. Israelis did elect Sharon, even though he was a convicted war criminal. Its worth noting that, generally speaking, Jews that come to live in Israel, often from a religious imperative, often have much more hard line Zionist viewpoints than native Israelis.

When I've visited Israel I've also encountered the attitudes towards Arabs that Ganesh described. My aunt will cross the road if she sees an arab. My small cousins casually fling racist remarks around. To some extent this has been fostered by the violence between the communities, but on the other hand, it's important to understand Israel's role in this. Joe Sacco (SORRY for poor spelling by the way ) is the way to go to find out about this. Or just read a history book.

This is wrapped up in the religion, culture and society of Israel.
 
 
MJ-12
18:14 / 06.05.04
However, many Jewish people *are* anti-Zionist, and critical of Sharon etc's appalling policies

Confusing it further, there are also many who are both Zionist and critical of Sharon, in that they believe his direction jeapordizes the long-term security of Israel.
 
 
Rage
18:34 / 06.05.04
Of course the Israeli presence in the Occupied Territories is a military occupation. The people of Israel are outraged, much as we are in America about the occupation of Iraq. In fact, a large portion of the nation of Israel feels that the occupation is flat out disgusting + a horrible imitation of the Nazi regime.

What's happening over there is quite familiar. Much of the world is blaming everything on the Zionists. This is hurting the people of Israel. Same thing with America. We do not agree with the actions of our governments.

Yet I still say that the nation of Israel is extremely brave and willed for going against the wishes of practically everyone. Israel is the supervillain. Unfortunately, this is causing people to talk shit about the Jews. It's a fucking mess.

I hope that going to Israel will awaken me to the different viewpoints that are held by everyone who resides there. Zionist Jews, Anti-Zionist Jews, Arabs, Palestinians, etc. etc. I'm done with dogmatic political bullshit. I want to find out everything. You guys obviously hold zero interest in exploring Zionist viewpoints. Some chaos magicians you are!

Even if the tour is filled with endless government propaganda, (though most of it seems to be about engaging in outdoor activities which = fun fun fun) I will find a way to remove the surface and see through the bullshit that is handed to me. Always have. I'm sure I won't be the only one on the tour who knows how to think for themselves. As a young Jewish female I feel that going to Israel (or as the counterculture calls it "Whizrahell") is a huge opportunity for me, especially being that it's absolutely free. This experience will change my life, yet not in the way that the "tour guides" might intend for it to. So there.
 
 
Ganesh
18:42 / 06.05.04
It's kinda debatable how 'courageous' a nation is for defying world opinion when that nation happens to enjoy the stupendously partisan patronage of the single biggest global hyperpower in the history of the planet. Not only does the US cynically use its UN veto to aid Israel in its multiple human rights abuses (and it's broken more Resolutions than any other nation since the UN began), but it continues to bankroll Israel financially and militarily to a degree that is frankly obscene.
 
 
Rage
18:47 / 06.05.04
By the way, I feel that calling people anti-semetic because they oppose the Israel occupation is incredibly fucked up. I just figured that the world was too smart to fall for that nonsense by now.

The main problem seems to lie in people confusing, mixing up, and twisting Israeli with Zionist with Jew with Sharon supporter.
 
 
Lurid Archive
19:04 / 06.05.04
Rage: Yeah, a large minority of Israelis want Israel to withdraw, just as a large minority of US citizens want out of Iraq. But these are still minorities, as far as I can tell.

So while it is incorrect to assume that Israelis all agree with official Israeli policy, or Americans with US policy, I think that it is equally incorrect to assume that these governments are operating against the unified will of the people.
 
 
raelianautopsy
19:54 / 06.05.04
The fact is that the anti-semitism label is used a cheap shot to end debate. But at the same time real anti-Jew racism does exist and is probibly on the rise right now. It doesn't look like the American "activist" culture is particularily racist, though there always are a few here and there, but probibly more among far-right 'conspiracy culture'. But examples of rising racism are moreso going in Europe. Obviously the Arab world is anti-Jew (the term 'anti-semitism' doesn't make sense when Arab people are more semetic then Jewish people) and anti-Zionism. Not all anti-Zionists are racist, but all anti-Jew racists are anti-Zionists, so it may seem worse.

As far as my own opinion of Israel, let me start on that. I was born in Israel and left when I was a young age. I am very grateful that I grew up in America. For now it seems to be a much better country to live in, just not to get invaded by. I've visited Israel twice in the last few years and I did not come away with a very high opinion of the place. There are some Arab people that live in terrible furnishings that you may see, but there are continually less and less Palestenians even allowed to go out. So unless you visit the West Bank yourself, you may not see so much oppresion going on. Honestly, I didn't really think of the political situation when I was there, and my opinion is based on general Israeli culture. They're just a really pushy loud people. And no one reads. There are literally more Russian language bookstores than Hebrew language bookstores. It is probibly the Middle Eastern influence on the culture that I don't care for. In more ways than not Israel is similar to its neighbors. Sephardic Jews look exactly like Arab people anyways. But the food is great, I will admit that. I really miss those cheap falafel stands.

The problem is that Israel was doomed to failure from the start. In the modern world you can't found a country and say that it is only for one ethnic group. As long as Jewish people have more rights than others, it is simply a racist system. Zionism has failed anyways. The purpose of Israel was to be a safe homeland for the Jews to get away from racism. Has Israel served that purpose?

Most of the Arab world is probibly worse than Israel. Israel may be Imperielist but its not doing a very good job of that since it is such a small landmass. There are Arabic dictatorships and theocracies all over the Middle East that treat their people worse. For example the Kurds have had it worse than the Palestenians. But the Arab world must focus on Israel so they don't look at their own problems. But Israel does consistantly gives them plenty of footage to use for propaghanda and reason to focus on them. But Israel is supposed to be a 'modern, Western' nation and should be given higher standards.

As far as I'm concerned their are no good guys over there. The terrorists are definately nuts. My main philosophy on it is that it is an unsolvable complicated mess and America should quit meddling in it. No more foreign aid for Israel or Egypt or anyone else. And obviously the Iraq situation has further complicated and destroyed our reputation in the Arab world. So lets figure out ways to stop buying their oil. What does America get out of supporting Israel? We have done an awful job trying to fix the Palestenian problem (if that is what we're trying to do, if we're not than that's even more reason to stop). I can't see leaving both sides to solve it themselves without our influence making it any worse.
 
 
raelianautopsy
20:24 / 06.05.04
So Rage, be sure to come back after next month and tell us your own opinions based on first-hand accounts.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
21:12 / 06.05.04
Rage, I hope before you go to Israel you've discarded or at least suppressed that charming "We ARe the MUTAnT MASterRAce!" crap you used to spout here and in your blog. Might not go down too well, just saying.

Based on my frank admission that I know very little about the situation...

When stressed, the human body tends to shut down a desire for sustenence as much as possible as there may be a need for fight/flight responses at any moment. It is thought that anorexics are unable or get 'stuck' in these high stressed patterns, leading to a suppression of appetite. The lack of food then tends to perpetuate the crisis situation, but it always starts in response to a genuine stressor or crisis.

The Israeli body faces a genuine threat. However, this jams the gate open as in the anorexic, feeding back on itself, the Israeli Political body seems to have taken paranoia and mistrust to a level unseen in any other open government. They are unable to differentiate between genuine threats to their state and perceived threats. I read 'Six Days' by Jeremy Bowen, about the Six Day War, they thought the Americans had turned against them because the Americans weren't giving them overt aid.

No country has clean hands when it comes to the Jews. Every country has mistreated them, as they have all races and their own people. But if Anti-Semitism is on the rise, I can't help but notice that it's been devalued by it's constant use by the Israeli state as a blanket term to describe all attacks against them, because they no longer seem able to judge them on their individual merits.
 
 
Jester
22:07 / 06.05.04
You guys obviously hold zero interest in exploring Zionist viewpoints. Some chaos magicians you are!

Oh man, much of my family *are* Zionist. My family is out there because of that very reason. I don't need to explore it, I grew up with it around the periphery of my family life.

The problem with Zionism is that it is based on the concept that the Jewish people are entitled to the land because they are god's chosen people. The actual political extension of that has meant the expulsion and worse of the general population of non-Jews in the area. I find it very hard to find anything positive to say about it. It's a form of religious nationalism, two values that I find it hard to sympathise with, at least in that heady combination.

Israel is not as isolated as all that. They have a massive amount of funding and support from the Western world, principly America, but also europe. Despite the fact they are obviously perpetrating massive human rights abuses, including, of course, most recently political assasignation, and the erection on the 'new berlin wall'.

Europe and America consistantly fail to adequately criticise Israel, or attempt to bring the country into line.

They are the only nuclear power in the region, and the recipiant of the most advanced technology, via America. They get to try out the newest weapons before even the American troops do.

OK, they are a small land mass, surrounded by hostile neighbours. But those neighbours, especially in the current climate, know that any attempt at attack would be useless, and would very likely prompt a huge American led backlash.

The Palestinians have retreated into racism and violence against Israel, partly at least because of Israel's oppressive and aggressive policies. However, it is true that this racism does exist. The only real way to diffuse it that I can see is to take away the glaring oppression and unfair treatment across everything from democratic rights, to economic rights, to land rights. Zionism, in that in its present form it calls for the Palestinian territories to be resettled by Israel, is ultimately at odds with achieving peace and stability.
 
 
sleazenation
22:11 / 06.05.04
I don't have anything to say outside of expressing an interest in reading your impressions of Israel and the occupied territories, if you indeed get a chance to visit them both...
 
 
w1rebaby
00:16 / 07.05.04
I don't call myself a chaos magician anyway, since, you know, I'm not.
 
 
*
02:17 / 07.05.04
This is probably why the goal of my intro course in middle eastern anthropology (taught by a professor who is an Israeli Jew whose research is on Arabs living in Israel, and an anti-Zionist critical of Sharon's policies) was to so hopelessly confuse us about every single aspect of the middle east (whatever that is) that we'd never take seriously anyone's claim that the matter is simple. Because the only people who seem to find simple solutions or clear moral positions in this mess appear to be people who haven't glanced past the headlines in the "World" section of the newspaper since 1940, or absolute frothing-at-the-brain fanatics. I'm the worst of the former, because the simple solution I'm clinging to is that the Israel-Palestine conflict is accomplishing fuck-all and that it's perpetuated by the absolute frothing-at-the-brain fanatics, whose mere continued oxygen suckage prevents the conflict from ever being solved. Fortunately, at this point in the semester, I'm beginning to realize that this is a little overly simplistic. I just haven't found anything to replace it with yet. Which is probably the downfall of a course designed to obliterate simple answers and replace them with utter confusion.
 
 
Nobody's girl
04:26 / 07.05.04
Whoa...
I always feel inadquately informed in discussions about Israel, please forgive me if I only address broad issues, I think the issue is too complex for me to get into specifics without getting bogged down in them.

Israel and the attendant problems always appeared fundamentally similar to the Troubles in Northern Ireland. Both parties seem to have fair points but it has gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond balanced argument and "justified force" (whatever that is) into seriously fucked up. At this juncture what possible justifications can either side have for their abominable behaviour?
Yet, astonishingly, the politicians and those in power seem unable to comprehend how transparent they appear to anyone not directly connected to the situation. They appear to think they can talk their way out of atrocity, the most awful part of it is- they seem to be right.

I used to watch newscasts about Northern Ireland and wish I could give all the silly bastards involved in the violence and hatred a serious reality check, and in my less charitable moments, a big fucking slap. They just seemed blinded by their own issues and propaganda. Like they'd actually begun to believe stuff they KNEW wasn't true because of pride and sheer obstinacy.

Obviously Israel is a very different animal to Northern Ireland but the fundamentals seem similar to me.

At this point I think unless someone with superpowers of mediation enters the scene there is very little that can be done.

BUT!

If I were an authoritarian dictator of the world, here's what I'd do: I'd pull a variation of Solomon's judgement. If you can't come to an amicable agreement, neither of you can have it. Cordon disputed territories off, visitors during the day are acceptable but NO-ONE gets to live there. Ever. Presumably it would need troops and intimidating armaments. Who knows, perhaps the blueprints for the Berlin Wall can actually be used for positive effect here?

OK OK, I know, it wouldn't work. I just wish we could do SOMETHING to stop the violence.
Good luck on your stay in Israel Rage.
 
 
Jub
08:33 / 07.05.04
OK, they are a small land mass, surrounded by hostile neighbours. But those neighbours, especially in the current climate, know that any attempt at attack would be useless, and would very likely prompt a huge American led backlash.

You reckon? I'm really not so sure. What a can of worms that would be! US forces liberating the occupied territories! I think it's academic anyway as I really don't think an attempted attack would result in Israel's defeat.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:25 / 07.05.04
Obviously the Arab world is anti-Jew

In what way is this obvious? Except in the sense of being an obvious crass generalisation which is in itself racist...

all anti-Jew racists are anti-Zionists

Not so. Most versions of Zionism centre around the idea that a nation state with an ideally homogenous racial/cultural identity is the best place for Jewish people to be. It's easy to see how this idea might be quite popular amongst other people who wish to preserve the racial/cultural homogeny of their nation state (specifically through the relocation of Jewish inhabitants of said states to Israel), and there are historical examples of this.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:05 / 07.05.04
Rage - can I suggest you read Drinking the Sea at Gaza by Amira Hass? (Amazon)

I don't have an opinion on "Israel". I have a slight love affair with some aspects of Jewish culture, because I've been lucky enough to meet and be influenced by several inspiring people whose individual identities were deeply wrapped up in their Jewish-ness. I'm appalled by the stance and conduct of the current administration in Israel, and the inertia of the US and UK governments regarding it, because it seems to me that it will inevitably perpetuate the ghastly, violent, stupid situation in the region. And I'm aggravated that it's so difficult to discuss the issues involved without the whole thing degenerating into a debate about anti-Semitism, which is an issue, but is also used by apologists for Sharon's government as a way of deflecting criticism.
 
 
raelianautopsy
20:18 / 07.05.04
Flyboy you misunderstand me. I do tend to generalize, but when I say 'the Arab world is obviously anti-Jew' I do not mean every single Arab person is racist against Jewish people. But the Arab world, in general, is about as close to unanimously anti-Jew as anywhere else in the world. (I also generelized Israelis in that same post; of course Israelis read, but they're general culture seems to read even less than Americans and that's just something I didn't like about it. They also, generally, don't care for comic books and science fiction, which makes me like American culture better.)

Its a complicated situation. Israel absolutely treats the Palestinians deplorably, and many Arabic dictatorships take advantage of that to shift away focus of their own human rights violations. And suicide bomber terrorists are definately nuts. Both sides are continuesly making it worse.

And not all anti-Jew racists are anti-Zionism?! Who in the world are racist against Jews but support Zionism? (actually in many ways the Nazis were Zionists and wanted all Jews forcibly deported to Palestine but that was another time) As far as I've seen all anti-semetic literature today is very anti-Israel as well.

My point is that since all anti-semetics are anti-Israel too, it can seem that anyone who criticizes Israel is only doing it because they are racist. But of course that's not true at all. Sometimes people defend Israel by playing this cheap race card when it is totally unnecessary, AND sometimes people are genuinely racist and hate Israel because they hate Jewish people. Both examples exist, but we should make sure that we don't think that only one of these situations can ever apply.
 
 
houdini
21:02 / 07.05.04
Before there's any further discussion of "anti-semitism", I think it's important to point out that Arabs are semitic people too.
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
21:19 / 07.05.04
I don't see any solution except an Israeli retreat and splitting/sharing the city...the idea of taking Jerusalem away from all of them sounds nice, though impossible..

What I would give to solve that problem as easily as J. Michael Straczinsky in "Rising Stars"... a "metahuman" turned the desert into fertile land so they all stopped fighting over crappy land...what a beautiful, idealistic image.
 
 
raelianautopsy
00:26 / 08.05.04
Yeah, I don't like the term 'anti-semetism' either. It's just redundant to keep saying 'anti-Jew', so I gave up.

The fact is that three fourths of Jewish people are Ashkanazis and they are European. Arab people are definately more semetic.
 
 
grant
00:39 / 08.05.04
Who in the world are racist against Jews but support Zionism?

Well, likely the same folks who saw Marcus Garvey's Pan-Africanists buddying with the KKK to get the darkies back to Africa where they belong.

I bear a very deep suspicion that Uncle Arthur paved the way for the modern state of Israel because he really didn't much want those Jewish chappies turning up at his country club any more.

From that article: Twenty years later, when the British foreign secretary, Arthur Balfour (sponsor of the 1905 Aliens Act to restrict Jewish immigration to the UK), wanted the government to commit itself to a Jewish homeland in Palestine, his declaration was delayed - not by anti-semites but by leading figures in the British Jewish community. They included a Jewish member of the cabinet who called Balfour's pro-Zionism "anti-semitic in result".
 
 
w1rebaby
00:42 / 08.05.04
I'm afraid that I'm not very sympathetic to the "anti-Semitism doesn't mean anti-Jewish" argument.

Yeah, technically the term "Semite" includes lots of Arabs. However, the term "anti-Semitism" means prejudice against Judaism and those of Jewish descent in this culture. That's the definition and has been for a while now. It's like trying to reclaim "gay" as meaning "happy".

Maybe it needs to be emphasised that there is no real distinction between those Jews of Middle Eastern origin and anyone else of Middle Eastern origin, but that's not something I have a hard time with to be honest and could be accomplished by different methods.
 
  

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