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Rene Gonzalez writing on Pat Tillman - is this an outrage or is it defensible?

 
  

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the Fool
22:27 / 11.05.04
calling people knuckle-dragging fuckwits ain't the best way to engage in a debate. People with these opinions are the one you need to reach (even if it seems futile). Otherwise its just preaching to converts. Even if you think they are a fuckwit, hold back, try and debate even if it frustrates you. You might (and I know its a small might) just change someones mind. And that, my friends, is a real victory.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:31 / 12.05.04
I strongly suspect, and openly invite the individual concerned to prove me wrong, that our beloved krystal is in no way engaged in this 'debate', and is not revisiting this thread, or possibly board, ever again.

If you are reading this, krystal, let us know.
 
 
w1rebaby
23:55 / 13.05.04
TILL-MAN!
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:08 / 14.05.04
Good work, Mr. Magnet. Me likey.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
09:08 / 14.05.04
Or Ms. Magnet. Golly, how presumptuous.
 
 
diz
14:46 / 17.05.04
calling people knuckle-dragging fuckwits ain't the best way to engage in a debate. People with these opinions are the one you need to reach (even if it seems futile). Otherwise its just preaching to converts. Even if you think they are a fuckwit, hold back, try and debate even if it frustrates you. You might (and I know its a small might) just change someones mind. And that, my friends, is a real victory.

generally speaking, people aren't capable of or interested in changing their minds on major issues, unless they're under some kind of duress or at a place in their life when they're needing a change or especially receptive to change, like an alcoholic hitting rock bottom or a college freshman leaving home for the first time. outside of those situations, people are generally incapable of changing their minds. the only real option is to quarantine bad memes and push good memes. calling someone a fuckwit can often cause them to stop posting in the same place, thereby quarantining their meme.
 
 
bio k9
13:49 / 29.05.04
Now the army is saying it looks like he was killed by friendly fire.
 
 
lekvar
02:22 / 30.05.04
Pat Tillmans funeral. The real one, not the media circus.

To be clear, I am a citizen of the US, I think both current "conflicts" are immoral, and the deification of Pat Tillman for propagand purposes is despicable. So here's part of the REAL story.

The picture presented here is neither the knuckle-dragger that Mr. Gonzalez would have us see, nor the flag-draped ubermench that Washington DC desperately needs. I think by presenting Pat Tillman as a human being the article deflates both arguments quite nicely.

I think his brother said it best.
 
 
MJ-12
02:58 / 30.05.04
That link would be over here
 
 
Jack Fear
22:19 / 07.10.05
Interesting to re-read this given recent revelations as to Pat Tillman's true character: he believed the Iraq war was illegal and, perhaps most astonishingly, had arranged a private meeting with Noam fucking Chomsky.

In retrospect, Ted Rall, in particular, needs a fat slap upside the head.
 
 
Baz Auckland
22:34 / 07.10.05
It seems pretty strange that he went and volunteered for the army if he was opposed to the war and all that...
 
 
Jack Fear
23:14 / 07.10.05
He was opposed to the Iraq war. He volunteered for Afghanistan, a military action which many—even on the Left—saw as justified.

When you conflate the two conflicts, George Bush smiles and the Baby Jesus cries.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:35 / 08.10.05
He died in a friendly-fire incident. Now he's starting to look like a hero for the other side - a Chomsky-reading refusnik who mistrusted the political basis for the war in Iraq and died pointlessly at the hands of his own side.
 
 
quixote
03:15 / 10.10.05
The hero-worship in US media deserves every bit of Gonzales' contempt. Tillman, himself, however, wasn't part of that, so it's illogical to condemn him for it. He, like the overwhelming majority of Americans, desperately wanted to hit back at Al-Qaeda for what they did. Unlike the overwhelming majority, he thought he shouldn't just "let George do it." That's noble, although I don't think it fits the definition of heroic, by itself.

The problem, of course, is that since George *was* doing it, and given his record on anything he's touched, caution about actually mucking in would have been advised. Tillman apparently didn't think much of the war effort, even in Afghanistan, once he saw up close how it was run. However, once you've enlisted, you can't just say, "Sorry, changed my mind." You could, of course, become a conscientious objector and go to jail, but I can see where there might be some distance between having criticisms of how the war was run and objecting to the whole damn thing.

I don't have one good word for the Shrub, and I think American football is a stupid game. (It's the helmets and the pads. It's a *game*, folks. You can make any rules you want. If you don't want to be hurt, make the rules accordingly, instead of pretending you can take it, and then wearing strategically placed, manly pads because, actually, you can't. But I digress.) Even though I don't buy into any part of what Tillman was involved in, I find it sad that a person of integrity died for nothing. And I feel for his family, who've lost him and who were lied to about his death.
 
  

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