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Torture of Iraqi prisoners

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14:34 / 12.05.04

Photography as a weapon has a World War II precedent; it was one of the major features of the Rape of Nanjing, one of the really ugly stories that people in the West don't hear about too often (largely because one of the real heroes happened to be a Nazi party member).

You can read the links for details, the general gist is that Japanese invaders would force Chinese women to take off their clothes and then take pictures of them. The nudity (and, quite often, rape) was slap one; the documenting of it so other eyes could see was slap two, you see. We had a discussion of shame-based culture on here not too long ago.

_pin: can anyone tell me what the lynched contractors from a while ago were contracted to do?

In that case, they were all "paramilitaries" from a compnay called Blackwater-- I think the leader at least was a former Navy SEAL, and all of them had army intelligence/commando backgrounds (I think they were Army Rangers, but I'm not sure). The company is owned and run by former SEALs.

At the time they were lynched, the Fallujah four were (supposedly) guarding a food convoy.

14:42 / 12.05.04

Seriously, I've been reading this thread and I don't understand where the shock value is coming from.

The visual imagery, the power of the photograph, the gulf between suspecting, even knowing, that something is happening and seeing it happening.

15:12 / 12.05.04

What about the beheaded contractor? His parents have been brought in where the other one's hadn't, implying that he was doing something much more cuddley, wholesome and revealable. Is it serious, given that the parents of the dead, rather understandly, tend to make statements in favour of reprisal attacks (and certainly people who aren't the parents, but just want attacks, are prone to hijack their causes), that these parents have come out attacking Bush for creating this situation?

If these bad apples are being seen to be causing the deaths of good apples, does this give extra weight to an attack on the millitary without looking unpatriotic? Is this really wishful thinking?

15:29 / 12.05.04

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the four Falluja contractors weren't lynched. Their car was ambushed and they were all killed, shot I think. All the dismemberment by mob etc came after they were dead.

15:54 / 12.05.04

The beheaded contractor, Nick Berg, appears to have been entirely freelance - he had no contract when he left for Iraq and travelled there independantly. His family have called him an idealist. learn more about Nick Berg bbc article on him

from the article
He returned to Iraq in March expecting to work for a telecoms company, but decided to leave the country after finding the job was no longer open.
Before he could depart, he was detained in Mosul by Iraqi police on suspicion of using forged papers.
He was freed on 6 April after being questioned by FBI agents, then disappeared.

15:56 / 12.05.04

The beheaded contractor, Nick Berg, was apparently not a paramilitary. He installed radio antennas, and had a history of doing charitable infrastructure work in developing countries. He also went to Iraq on his own to look for work there -- he wasn't hired to go to Iraq.

According to a report on NPR yesterday evening, he was snatched by the Al Qaeda (or similar) fighters after being held by the US government, who weren't allowing him to leave Iraq because of some paperwork thing. They actually sued the government at the time, and then the gov't released their boy, and then he disappeared.

The father blames the US for holding him for 10 days illegally and costing him his life -- if it hadn't been for that delay, Berg would have already been home.

Edit: sleazenation's post puts it more succinctly.

17:56 / 12.05.04

A BBC profile on Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the man said to be responsible for the beheading and who wishes to rival bin Laden in igniting sectarian conflict. He's got a huge list of attacks and atrocities under his belt, not least of which is the suspected bombing of celebrations in Kurbala, a Shiite holy city, in an effort to instigate an Iraqi civil war.

Here also is the letter he wrote to al-Qaeda looking for financial and recruit support for his aims.

22:28 / 12.05.04

The headline says it all really... Lawmakers: New photos show torture

from the article...
"I don't know how the hell these people got into our army," said Ben Nighthorse Campbell, R-Colo., one of several members of Congress who emerged grim-faced from lawmakers-only screenings in the Capitol. Lawmakers said they saw disturbing images that included military dogs snarling at cowering prisoners, Iraqi women commanded to expose their breasts and photos of sex acts, including forced homosexual sex.
In addition, lawmakers said there were images of hooded Iraqi prisoners being forced to masturbate while cameras captured the scene.
Rep. Jane Harman, D-Calif., said she saw a clothed man hurling himself against a wall as though trying to knock himself unconscious.
"It was yet another series of pictures depicting horrific acts, examples of torture and sexual abuse," said Senate Democratic leader Tom Daschle of South Dakota.

22:36 / 12.05.04

So the question - Shouldn't the voting, tax paying American public be able to see these images (which are now overtly being refered to as depicting torture by some politicians) to see EXACTLY what is being done in their country's name and being funded by their tax dollars? Or should these images be kept out of the public domain on grounds that they are horrible images that no-one should have to see?

As Loomis kind of hints at in the Geneva Convention thread, many people accept such horrible things are happening - but is it enough to just know intellectually? Don't the images have to be seen to be believed?

22:44 / 12.05.04

To answer my own question, this from the BBC's article on the 'worse than expected' photos

There had been speculation that the Pentagon would release its entire stock of photos of abuse to minimise the dangers of them leaking out slowly to the media, but correspondents say the killing of Mr Berg and the content of the other images makes this less likely now.

Thoughts?

23:01 / 12.05.04

I think it's an excuse: quit while you retain the moral high ground.

02:50 / 13.05.04

What moral high ground to be had is slipping and slipping fast.

Personally, given the bipartisan reaction to the photos and the revengeful ramifications born from them as well, I have no problem with them not being brought to the public domain. My curiousity doesn't need to sated that bad. God knows the descriptions are disturbing enough. And they seem to be driving a nail into the 'righteousness' of this war.

In all likelihood they'll be leaked anyhow.

17:21 / 13.05.04

This story just keeps getting weirder...

May 13, 2004 -- WASHINGTON - Shocking shots of sexcapades involving Pfc. Lynndie England were among the hundreds of X-rated photos and videos from the Abu Ghraib prison scandal shown to lawmakers in a top-secret Capitol conference room yesterday.
"She was having sex with numerous partners. It appeared to be consensual," said a lawmaker who saw the photos.

And, videos showed the disgraced soldier - made notorious in a photo showing her holding a leash looped around an Iraqi prisoner's neck - engaged in graphic sex acts with other soldiers in front of Iraqi prisoners, Pentagon officials told NBC Nightly News.

"Almost everybody was naked all the time," another lawmaker said.

22:50 / 13.05.04

I think it's an excuse: quit while you retain the moral high ground.

I think that horse left the barn about 14 months back.

23:32 / 13.05.04

The problem with the latest beheading video for the USG is simply that the people doing it claim to be al-Q, and that just draws attention back to the al-Q vs Iraq debate, and while a lot of people seem to believe there's a connection (via media osmosis) there clearly isn't and it leaves the USG open to attacks along the lines of "well, shouldn't we be going after al Qaida instead of wasting our time in Iraq?"

They can claim that they're acting in Iraq to attack al-Q, and maintain the "all insurgents are foreign-inspired" line, but that doesn't have that much credibility when you're clearly arresting, fighting and killing Iraqis with no connection with them. Not even the Pentagon are claiming that Sadr is anything to do with al-Q.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

07:21 / 14.05.04

We were tortured in the same way as Iraqi prisoners say released Guantanamo Bay Britons. Hmmm, I'm getting good at this newspaper headline lark...

13:03 / 14.05.04

The last I heard, Rumsfeld said he wouldn't release the rest of the photos as it would be against the Geneva Convention...

...and no, that's not supposed to be a joke.

08:44 / 15.05.04

US forces bans controversial interrogation techniques

The pentagon still remains defiant on the legality of its interrogation techniques, while still attempting to claim that the abuse was not widespread... from the article...
There's an enormous amount of subjectivity in the interpretation of the Geneva Conventions," Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita said.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

11:14 / 15.05.04

British troops may have tortured Iraqis, but The Mirror didn't actually get photos of them doing it. It's interesting that Morgan has gone whilst the Mirror is saying they were hoaxed. Did he perhaps just refuse to accept the photos weren't genuine?

11:42 / 15.05.04

Our lady - as I understand it it breaks down this way - Morgan appears to have stuck to his story. The government couldn't be seen as meddling in the freedom of the press. However, where Morgan was vulnerable was with the backing of the shareholders. The bad publicity generated by Morgan's decision to publish the photos and claim that they were taken in Iraq (as opposed to dramatizing events that allegedly took place in Iraq) was hurting the value of their shares. The theory being that shareholders, and other investors lobbied the members of the board of Trinity Mirror, the company that owns the paper to sack Morgan.

10:18 / 16.05.04

This New Yorker article Contains some rather scarey allegations...

From the article...
According to interviews with several past and present American intelligence officials, the Pentagon’s operation, known inside the intelligence community by several code words, including Copper Green, encouraged physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners in an effort to generate more intelligence about the growing insurgency in Iraq.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

15:26 / 16.05.04

Now that the Queen's Lancashire Regiment have had their honour restored as it was proved that the Mirror photos were faked they can now defend it again against the allegation that they beat an Iraqi prisoner to death.

And here's a nice, non-Jewish, conspiracy theory for y'all, with these fake photos. One of the reasons the Government and the Regiment gave as proof for knowing the photos were faked was that they had the truck used in the photo themselves. It was in a Territorial Army barracks in Lancashire. Now, during Operation: Blast the Bastards Back to the Stone Age, it was reported the crew of the Ark Royal were so sickened by what they saw as intolerable BBC Anti-War bias they turned to News International instead. The Daily Mirror has been the only Anti-War tabloid. So, exactly how much was this a result of Morgan wanting to believe some photos to be true and how much was an operation to discredit an Anti-War newspaper and try to bolster a disgraced Army Regiment just before some of it's troops go on trial for brutality and murder?

08:45 / 17.05.04

Yet more from Seymore Hersh in the New Yorker only goes to confirm what any reasonable person already knew; the practice of torture is difficult to fob off as the acts of a few individials when official policy rejects the contraints of the Geneva convention.

As I said, this won't surprise anyone, but the implications of it being so public are surely significant.

pointless and uncalled for

11:56 / 19.05.04

This just in, the first court-martial has resulted in one year of confinement for Sivits.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

12:29 / 19.05.04

Now we know how much value an American court puts on an Iraqi's wellbeing. Sorry, I just feel that if this is going to be typical then it's pretty poor justice, though none of the real criminals are on trial.

12:55 / 19.05.04

Well, Sivits has been demoted, discharged, incarcerated, and publicly outed as a torturer. You don't think that's sufficient justice for someone who cruelly humiliated prisoners of war?

pointless and uncalled for

13:15 / 19.05.04

Sadly justice isn't always about punishment fitting the crime. In cases like this where it is near impossible for it to do so then justice becomes about being seen to do the right thing. The right thing in this case being "doing something".

The good news is that this will be an upwards ass kicking and will stop when appeasement reaches an acceptable level.

Remember, the angrier you stay, the more people get charged.

13:16 / 19.05.04

Has he been convicted of being a torturer? I don't think he has - can anyone find a link?

On the length of sentence - I think it will be interesting to contrast the sentence recieved by this soldier - who pleaded guilty to all charges and very much took the government line that this was an isolated incident and those of his co-accused, who thus far have failed to enter a plea and some of whom are contesting the goverment line.

We're The Great Old Ones Now

13:20 / 19.05.04

Don't.

Say.

"Humiliated".

It's a weasel word. Like "abuse", it suggests that somehow this wasn't torture, that it wasn't all that bad. Call it what it is. When someone fixes electrodes to your body and makes you stay in one position for a prolonged period of time, on the understanding that you will die if you move, that is torture. Forcing sexual acts on prisoners is and has for a long time been accepted as torture. And no, one year is not a sufficient sentence for that crime. What would you get in a regular criminal court for systematic sexual abuse and assault? More.

It looks to me as if Sivits has cut a deal. Put it this way: he's the only one of the accused who says it was all their idea; he denies their activities were sanctioned by any higher-ups. And mysteriously, he gets a year for torture...

Well. We'll see what happens.

14:36 / 19.05.04

Sivits did cut a deal. He's getting one year because he's testifying against five other accused compatriots.

Humiliation is well-accepted as a form of torture, as is sexual coercion. To tell the truth, I'd prefer to be careful to state what kind of torture we're talking about, than to use the blanket term. That way we don't mistake it for something more or less heinous, like, say, beheading a prisoner of war on camera.

19:00 / 19.05.04

I'm not sure what your point is OG- Are you saying we should be stressing that the torture committed by US troops on Iraqis is not as bad as those commited by Jordanian al-Qaeda suspect?

01:59 / 20.05.04

Nope, just responding to the use of the word "humiliation" and its validity. Making it clear that it's best not to start lumping crimes of various severity together under a blanket term.

06:03 / 20.05.04

i would be hard pressed to categorise a beheading as torture.

Well, Sivits has been demoted, discharged, incarcerated, and publicly outed as a torturer. You don't think that's sufficient justice for someone who cruelly humiliated prisoners of war?

no.
i really dont.
not even if it was only one iraqi prisoner he tortured.
and it wasnt.
are you familiar with the concept of man hours?
persons working multiplied by time spent?
well lets try persons tortured multiplied by time spent.

how many man hours of torture do you think he racked up?

he deserves hard time, in a room without a window.

06:41 / 20.05.04

i'm reminded of the US immigration form my friend showed me before he went to SF once.

there was a question asking if the applicant had ever been convicted as a war criminal.
that wasnt what got me.
it was the supplementary "if yes, please give details."

i think of this now, as the US seemingly grades evil on a scale of 'me to ten'.

pointless and uncalled for

06:43 / 20.05.04

An act we are restricted from doing by law and judical mechanisms.

The trouble with enforcing law is you also have to abide by it. This is why justice is sometimes seen to fail.

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