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Torture of Iraqi prisoners

 
  

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Hieronymus
21:00 / 29.04.04
I don't know whether to throw furniture around or be nauseous. Or both.

From CBS News: For decades under Saddam Hussein, many prisoners who were taken to the Abu Ghraib prison never came out. It was the centerpiece of Saddam’s empire of fear, and those prisoners who did make it out told nightmarish tales of torture beyond imagining – and executions without reason.

Last month, the U.S. Army announced 17 soldiers in Iraq, including a brigadier general, had been removed from duty after charges of mistreating Iraqi prisoners.

But the details of what happened have been kept secret, until now.

...one Iraqi prisoner was told to stand on a box with his head covered, wires attached to his hands. He was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted.

There are shots of the prisoners stacked in a pyramid, one with a slur written on his skin in English.

In some, the male prisoners are positioned to simulate sex with each other. And in most of the pictures, the Americans are laughing, posing, pointing, or giving the camera a thumbs-up.

Part of the Army's own investigation is a statement from an Iraqi detainee who charges a translator - hired to work at the prison - with raping a male juvenile prisoner: "They covered all the doors with sheets. I heard the screaming. ...and the female soldier was taking pictures."

There is also a picture of an Iraqi man who appears to be dead -- and badly beaten.

One of the soldiers facing court martial is Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick.

Six months before he faced a court martial, Frederick sent home a video diary of his trip across the country. Frederick, a reservist, said he was proud to serve in Iraq. He seemed particularly well-suited for the job at Abu Ghraib. He’s a corrections officer at a Virginia prison, whose warden described Frederick to us as “one of the best.”

Frederick's letters and email messages home also offer clues to problems at the prison. He wrote that he was helping the interrogators:

"We help getting them to talk with the way we handle them. ... We've had a very high rate with our style of getting them to break. They usually end up breaking within hours."

But the Army investigation found serious problems behind the scenes. The Army has photographs that show a detainee with wires attached to his genitals. Another shows a dog attacking an Iraqi prisoner. Frederick said that dogs were “used for intimidation factors.”
 
 
w1rebaby
00:38 / 30.04.04
In the context of an invasion involving cluster-bombing cities and shooting at ambulances, the fact that occupation forces are also torturing prisoners doesn't come as a big surprise.

I just generally simmer along at a certain level of anger, which is topped up occasionally by distinct reports like this.

I'm sure it will all be explained away as "a few bad apples".
 
 
The Tower Always Falls
02:27 / 30.04.04
Right. Well I'm disgusted past the point of rational thought.

From this conservative blog that I actually enjoy. You can follow through those links but the real kicker is...
Seriosuly. Don't click on this if you have any empathy at all. Or do.

(WARNING- added by mod on request- probably not work-safe).
 
 
sleazenation
06:59 / 30.04.04
And if this is happening in Iraq where there are comparatively more checks and balences and the actions of the Coalition armed services are open to more scrutiny then you have to wonder what exactly is going on behind the closed doors of camp x-ray...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
07:14 / 30.04.04
Okay... I'm totally disgusted now, but, as has been said by others, none too surprised.

(Oh, btw, in case the Tower's requested mod change hasn't gone through yet, the pictures ze's linking to are DEFINITELY not work-safe.)

Just heard Ann Clwyd on the radio saying she had "concerns", but that it would be wrong to draw comparisons between this kind of shit and what went on under Mr Hussein. OF COURSE IT WOULD BE, ANN, HE WASN'T SUPPOSED TO BE THE GOOD GUYS!!!

And of course if this kind of shit makes me angry enough to fantasise about blowing stuff up, then it probably does little to deter potential terrorists. Fuck sakes.
 
 
sleazenation
08:26 / 30.04.04
From the guardian's coverage of this story

One civilian contractor was accused of raping a young, male prisoner but has not been charged because military law has no jurisdiction over him.

And this is the truly scary thing - as abhorant as the actions of the troops in this case is, at least they have some chance of being held responsible for their crimes - This is not the case for the private contrators, mercernaries in other words, who have been brought in to bolster the over-stretched US army.
 
 
Chubby P
08:47 / 30.04.04
When things like this occur I make a point of checking out the US news sites to see what coverage it gets.

CNN has nothing at all.

Yahoo.com has a report that took a bit of searching to find. It has the standard yahoo trolls reponses to the story.

The Washington Post is carrying the story.

Searching the news from yahoo.com lists a number of reports mainly from outside the US (UK, Hindi Times, etc)

Does anyone know if this is getting coverage on US TV outside of the CBS channel?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
09:03 / 30.04.04
Massacres, torture of civilians...

...hmm, sounds like the V word again, George. And I don't mean "victory".
 
 
sleazenation
09:05 / 30.04.04
I was actually quite shocked that there is *nothing* on this on ABC's main news page...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
09:46 / 30.04.04
From that Guardian story:

One of the soldiers, Staff Sgt Chip Frederick is accused of posing in a photograph sitting on top of a detainee, committing an indecent act and with assault for striking detainees - and ordering detainees to strike each other. He told CBS: "We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things ... like rules and regulations."

This man will go far in the military. Anyone that saw that program on Channel 4 a month or so back about killing will recognise what's going on here. Someone who has no morality at all, except what he receives in orders from superiors. This is what the military, and especially but by no means just the Americans, have been striving for since the second world war. Unfortunately in the past it's tended to result only in psychopaths, but if the Government are able to create people with switch-off morality it'll be a great advantage to them in war.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:38 / 30.04.04
I think you have to ask yourself how this was allowed to happen. One answer is that a few unprincipled men, due to lack of discipline and a failure of command, committed these atrocities. So if we punish those guys all will be well.

Another explanation is that these men weren't monsters at all. Rather, Iraqis are being consistently treated as inferiors. They are "disappeared", shot at, bombed and killed with no consequence. And thats the stuff that US admits to.

I can't help thinking of the Stanford prison experiment in relation to this and I think the problem goes a lot deeper than a few bad apples.
 
 
aus
10:58 / 30.04.04
I live in the USA, I listen to news and opinions, yet if it wasn't for this thread I would have heard nothing about this. I'm not sure what's happening with the First Amendment - maybe they're working towards a repeal. Seriously, freedom of speech doesn't do much good when the media practise such thorough self-censorship.
 
 
illmatic
11:36 / 30.04.04
aus: Jusdging form the lunchtime news here I think the story may yet blow up in the 'states, when opinion from the Middle East starts to filter back.

(vindictive)

But, I'm glad the f***king ****s who did this will face the music - end of career and jail time, it looks like. GOOD.

(/vindictive)
 
 
Abigail Blue
11:55 / 30.04.04
Well, it's made the main page of CNN.com this morning. Not the main story, but at least it's in plain sight...
 
 
Hieronymus
13:21 / 30.04.04
I think that's what infuriates me the most, aus. That CBS sat on the goddamn story for weeks, delaying the broadcast because the DoD asked them not to and then only released it to the public because some other journalists were going to beat them to the scoop....Bastards is too soft a word in my vocabulary right now.

Two weeks ago, 60 Minutes II received an appeal from the Defense Department, and eventually from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Gen. Richard Myers, to delay this broadcast -- given the danger and tension on the ground in Iraq.

60 Minutes II decided to honor that request, while pressing for the Defense Department to add its perspective to the incidents at Abu Ghraib prison. This week, with the photos beginning to circulate elsewhere, and with other journalists about to publish their versions of the story, the Defense Department agreed to cooperate in our report.


You should read the letter fallout from Americans who got their first viewing of the 60 Minutes II broadcast. I'm thankful at least most of the letters are aghast and disgusted with the actions of the soldiers. Most of them anyway. The rest I just want to smack with a brick.
 
 
happylee
13:33 / 30.04.04
The American public should be made aware of this outrage. They should know that such acts are being committed by those who are allegedly there, for their protection.
The american media has a consistent ability to jump on a story whatever the sensitivity just to sell extra papers or get a few more viewers (ahem, Diana et al) so why are they not doing the same here?
This situation is bound to go from bad to worse which I am sure most on here will agree with. Other than talking about it, in reality what can we do?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
15:57 / 30.04.04
I still don't understand (and this is me, a guy who has an uhealthy fascination with serial killers, and regularly gets mocked for it by fellow 'lithers) why, why, WHY you'd WANT to do this shit to people just because you could? I don't get it.

Just who the fuck ARE these people who are allowed guns? Fuck, I wouldn't even let them take the fucking bus unaccompanied.

Apologies. I'm gonna have to leave this thread for a while, otherwise my every post will be "CUNTS! LET'S KILL THE FUCKING LOT OF 'EM!!!" Back when I've chilled a bit.
 
 
grant
16:06 / 30.04.04
You can tell your friends.

You can print out the stories and pass them around your office/workplace.

Don't expect *everyone* to be interested, but don't think people won't remember, either.
 
 
Simplist
17:38 / 30.04.04
The images no longer seem to be loading at the site linked to above. The same pictures can be found here.

What I find creepiest is those winning smiles on the two American soldiers pictured.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:38 / 30.04.04
Oh Gods, Colonel Bob Stewart (who I think was in Gulf War I?) has just used the words "These soldiers, if they are soldiers..."

Amnesty are saying they've had proof since last May of soldiers torturing Iraqis, a fusilier from Tamworth (?) had sent some film to be developed at a chemist, HE'D TAKEN PHOTOS of Iraqis being tortured!
 
 
sleazenation
21:34 / 30.04.04
It looks like the case of the British soldier is going to make the cover of the Mirror tomorrow...
 
 
sleazenation
06:32 / 01.05.04
Yes it looks like British soldiers have also tortured Iraqis.

So, looks like that list 'a few bad apples' is growing...
 
 
Jacrafter
06:55 / 01.05.04
Dr. Zimbardo's Prison Experiment.
 
 
aus
14:57 / 01.05.04
The story is on the front page of The Tennessean today. It took a while, especially as it was on 60 Minutes II on April 28 (I saw nothing about this on CBS, no prior teasers or follow-up), but at last it is receiving appropriate print coverage. Of course, they didn't have much choice at this stage.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
15:47 / 01.05.04
Those UK pictures in the Mirror were a little... odd.
I'm not denying that UK soldiers are absuing prisoners, but the pictures in the Mirror looked faked: no blurs on rifle being 'jabbed' and a soldier's boot 'lunging' into the victim's face, every shot well framed and composed.
(strokes beard) But who faked them?... and why?
 
 
Jester
00:01 / 02.05.04
In the Observer today, they point out that the UK soldiers, and even eventually Blair, face the possibility of being tried for war crimes at the International Court, but the US soldiers don't...

Although the US soldiers will undoubtably be punished, now that the media spotlight is on them, wouldn't it be better... just in terms of fairness and accountability, if these US soldiers would face that kind of trial?

Isn't that exactly why the court was set up?

And doesn't it show something that the US government, far from bringing that kind of accountability to bare on their own account, seem to have sat on this for quite a while?
 
 
Jester
00:03 / 02.05.04
IT's also worth bringing up this story again:

GIs in Iraq escape sex crime punishment
 
 
w1rebaby
23:42 / 02.05.04
The story has been receiving steadily increasing coverage, but I find it rather difficult to judge exactly how much it's going to impact given that I watch political news (perhaps a bit too much) and a lot of people don't.

The problem is

(a) stories don't reach and maintain prominence unless they have a "sponsor" - some non-news organisation willing to refer to them consistently, put out press releases and so on

(b) it's a tickly issue for the Dems because they can't pin this directly on Bush, as yet anyway, and they don't want to look like they're not Supporting The Troops. You can't imply that the US Armed Forces are anything less than brave, upstanding men and women, moral and dignified, with maybe a few bad apples. They'll only press it if they can find some evidence of negligence or organisational policy. I can't think of another group that has the clout to sponsor this. (Amnesty? Who are they?)

This New Yorker article might provide the above, though:

U.S. news media say an internal military investigation has found U.S. Army officers and CIA agents encouraged the abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

The report in the latest edition of The New Yorker Magazine says the still-classified investigation found "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses" at the Abu Ghraib prison.

The U.S. Army reserve general in charge of the soldiers accused of abuse, says she suspects the suspects were encouraged by military intelligence.


(Irritatingly, I recently let my New Yorker subscription lapse.)
 
 
w1rebaby
00:06 / 03.05.04
The story is currently on the New Yorker site, in the "Fact" section. I don't know how long it will remain but it's pretty clear in its allegations that this was deliberate policy rather than "a few bad apples". Just a selection:

In letters and e-mails to family members, Frederick repeatedly noted that the military-intelligence teams, which included C.I.A. officers and linguists and interrogation specialists from private defense contractors, were the dominant force inside Abu Ghraib. In a letter written in January, he said:

I questioned some of the things that I saw . . . such things as leaving inmates in their cell with no clothes or in female underpants, handcuffing them to the door of their cell—and the answer I got was, “This is how military intelligence (MI) wants it done.” . . . . MI has also instructed us to place a prisoner in an isolation cell with little or no clothes, no toilet or running water, no ventilation or window, for as much as three days.

The military-intelligence officers have “encouraged and told us, ‘Great job,’ they were now getting positive results and information,” Frederick wrote. “CID has been present when the military working dogs were used to intimidate prisoners at MI’s request.” At one point, Frederick told his family, he pulled aside his superior officer, Lieutenant Colonel Jerry Phillabaum, the commander of the 320th M.P. Battalion, and asked about the mistreatment of prisoners. “His reply was ‘Don’t worry about it.’”


(Note also "interrogation specialists from private defense contractors" - those civilians again.)
 
 
eddie thirteen
02:03 / 03.05.04
Eugenics...is it really all THAT bad?

Honestly, you have to wonder how many of the winners responsible for this sick-ass shit would ever have been more than a twinkle in a moron's eye if we had a good, solid breeding program in place here in the US. Including George W. Bush, for that matter. Nipping the scrotum sack in the bud (as it were) could create problems if the system is allowed to run amuck, but with a few consistent criteria I think we could avoid unnecessary sterilizations. For instance, if a child is found to be shoving m-80s in cats' asses -- behavior that seems a logical precursor to the adult activities described in the afore-mentioned stories -- *snip.* Within a few generations, the unlovely element is no longer a factor, save for the inevitable occasional mutation, which could be dashed against a wall at the first sign of deviant behavior. Is this cruel, or just practical?
 
 
Hieronymus
02:20 / 03.05.04
Thank you, eddie thirteen, for making an already deplorable situation even more sickening. Your jackboots and Death's Head pin are waiting for you when you're ready.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
07:35 / 03.05.04
Phex - there's more about the authenticity of the Mirror photos here, although that seems to have led to more and worse news about the whole thing. (both links BBC news, so everyone may well have seen them already...)
 
 
w1rebaby
12:37 / 03.05.04
The Mirror's rebuttal
 
 
Hieronymus
13:24 / 03.05.04
So will a written reprimand quiet the fervor over the Abu Ghraib tortures?. Criminal investigations are still proceeding but what's the wager that they'll be kept under wraps by the quietus of White House.
 
 
MJ-12
13:58 / 03.05.04
from the referenced article

Six other soldiers are being criminally investigated for involvement in the alleged abuse.

It seems like those removed from it who should have know what was going on are getting the reprimands, and those directly involved are looking at criminal charges.
 
  

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