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Magic and Society

  
  

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LykeX
22:19 / 26.04.04
Had too many cocktails again Gypsy?

But seriously, you're right. Your family, your friends, that's your community right there. It's as basic as it gets.
But what about skill? I know I don't feel anywhere near confident enough to actually tell anyone about what I'm doing. I'm not even completely convinced that magic isn't a load of crap myself. What I mean is that I haven't gotten any really earth-shattering results yet. Until I do, I'm keeping to myself.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
22:32 / 26.04.04
...yeah, something like that. I get a bit passionate about this subject. At this rate I might as well just start a gypsy lantern post-red mist apologies thread or something.
 
 
illmatic
07:03 / 27.04.04
BiP:That as a culture/populace we're very focussed on the individual's needs and agency, to the detriment perhaps of community... Certainly I think we identify much more as individuals, than as syncretic parts of a broader entity, as has been the case in other other cultures/period

Excellent point, BiP. And I’d say that one of the points about being as individualised as we are it makes us easier targets for marketing and consumerism. As “individuals” in the West, we are primarily defined by the goods or services we consume. In the magical work this take place by “workbook-ification” that A of G is talking about above. One of the kind of assumption that workbooks and the like present is that everybody can do this stuff or gain access to these skills through the consumption of the materials within the book, or weekend workshop – I think tit’s interest to contrast this sort of approach with that of a tribal society where there’s only one shaman or a traditional community which is served by a mere few cunning folk. Perhaps everyone can’t be a shaman or a magician? Though the shaman’s role is glamorous from the outside, the skills he has access to are won through blood, sweat and tears, not just picked up off the shelf.

Hermes N: The Third is that they accept help and the first thing that goes wrong or doesn't work the magician is screwed, now s/he has a whole community that thinks, a. this person is an idiot and, b. this person made promises that turned out to be crap, whether or not the magician made any promises or gaurantees.

LykeX: But what about skill? I know I don't feel anywhere near confident enough to actually tell anyone about what I'm doing. I'm not even completely convinced that magic isn't a load of crap myself.

I can totally sympathise with this position, as I’m no sort of great soceror myself. I think it’s a question of sticking with things, questioning procedures, finding something that resonates etc. until you develop that skill. That’s the kind of blood, sweat and tears I suppose. (I actually typed that first off as “blood, sweat and rears” which brings to mind a completely different sort of practice). I’d also say that this is where you put your arse on the line in this way it’s good for you. I’ve recently started doing divinations for people (I’ve always done this, but lately I’ve been going out of my way a bit more) and I do feel like I’m exposing myself to humiliation, failure etc – but at the same time, it means I have to know my materials, be ale to present and communicate them well, and ahe confidence in what I’m doing. There’s a completely different vibe to doing it for someone else, which is good for practice.
 
 
Z. deScathach
07:54 / 27.04.04
I agree totally with Gypsy Lantern. If one comes from the space of belief that magick is actually a working skill, then it's the height of irresponsibility to not use it when need presents itself. While I've shied away from political magick that aims directly at political candidates, I've had no problem with doing magick to influence the outcome of a particular issue. To me, it is just "voting on the astral". Make no mistake about it, where I live, the christian right is voting with their prayers. It's easy to say that christian prayer is weak for such and such reason, but have you ever seen a prayer circle? Eyes rolling back, repeated chants, enormous outpouring of emotional energy in a circle with clasped hands? Looks like gnosis to me. If I fail to use my own magick toward an agenda, then I'm saying that only they are the one's getting a say.

In terms of helping friends, or even persons that I don't know, why shouldn't? I once saw a young woman staggering through the field near my place of residence. She was clearly rather out of it. If I would have approached her she would have run away. I put a protective field around her and did a working to insure her safety. I've heard the argument, "But people are supposed to learn from their suffering." Perhaps they are, but then again, perhaps they aren't. I would rather come down on the side of helping. An argument that I give to such persons is, "Hmmmm, then what is the significance of my coming across this person?" There have been times when I haven't interceded because someone truly DID need to learn from their mistakes. It is a judgment call that will only be right some of the time.

Sometimes mysticism can cause a sort of viewpoint of suffering as illusion. I was in the house a friend who was studying the Course in Miracles, when a woman screamed for help from the alleyway. I called the police and then ran out to see if I could spot anything. After it was over with, he looked at me sadly, disheartened at how "unenlightened" I was. To him, I was doing the wrong thing by calling the cops! If we view magick as a skill, it our responsibility to use that skill to help others. Using my magick to help others has not given me a "big head". To me, magick is like any other skill. If a person is highly skilled in martial arts, should they stand by while an innocent person is assaulted? One thing that disturbs me about the arguments that magick should never be used for others is that they seem to come from a space of fear of consequences, such as "karma will get you". or "you'll get a backlash". If we all take that kind of attitude, just what sort of world will be living in?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:08 / 27.04.04
I think this thing about doing magic for other people as a process that will lead to a big head or a megalomaniac power trip is a bit of a myth perpetuated by people who probably haven't done very much of this sort of work. It's actually pretty humbling to constantly put yourself and your skills on the line like that. I think it's far easier to sit about imagining yourself as some kind of mighty magus when your not having your abilities put to the test on a daily basis, than when you're constantly being challenged and made to see exactly how well your stuff does or does not perform in real life situations.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
11:40 / 27.04.04
BiP - that's a good point apropos cultural factors relating to individualism. Geert Hofstede's work on collectivist ("allocentric") and individualistic ("idiocentric") cultural syndromes may be worth looking into on this score (See his book Cultures and Organisations for more info. According to Hofstede (and other researchers in this field), individualist cultures have four key features: self-reliance, competition, emotional distance from in-groups and hedonism - all of which can be said to reflect a so-called 'healthy conflict' between individuals and their environment. Collectivist cultures are characterised by 3 key features: interdependence, family integrity, and sociability - reflecting a 'healthy dependence' where individuals value their social identities and interpersonal relationships and adjust their behaviour in order to 'fit' into their surroundings. Individualistic cultures emphasise self-identity and 'personal' goals, whereas in collectivist cultures, group identity and group goals take precedence. Hofstede's research gets particularly interesting when he starts examining how these cultural factors influence modes of sociability and interpersonal communication. Hofstede looks at other factors as well, but I'm trying to keep this post from being too long.

If we look at how contemporary magic is portrayed (through books/internet) in, for example, the UK or the USA, then its easy to see that it reflects (and perhaps reinforces) Hofstede's 'key features' of idiocentric cultures. From this p.o.v., magic loses any 'subversive' qualities and becomes yet another method of expressing cultural trends (particularly when one considers that 'expressing one's individuality' is valued in idiocentric cultures). I'd hypothesise that unless one gets involved with a magical approach which stresses the necessity of building relationships (i.e. with spirits, clan elders, lineages, teachers, or just other people in general), it's going to be difficult for the 'individualist' magician to see any particular benefits in doing so.

Interesting that Hermes makes a sharp distinction between "the magician" (self) and an abstracted, monolithic "community" (other), whereas Gypsy expresses the idea that "community" is a set of complex relationships in which he is directly involved.
 
 
Z. deScathach
13:53 / 27.04.04
Hmmmm. A question might be, in terms of magick, is it possible to embody both of these qualities. Is it possible to be both individualistic and still have the integration expressed in a collectivist culture. I would argue that magick offers just those possibilities. On one hand, magickal practice sets one at odds with the prevailing culture, (at least at this time), and yet offers ways to integrate with it. In this sense, I would say that magick is quite subversive, due to the fact that at this point collectivist culture places a premium on conformity. Of course, it can be successfully argued that magickal practice, being at odds with prevailing cultural beliefs, is individualistic, but I am speaking of magick as more of a trans formative element. If enough people practice it, it does possibly offer a way to express simultaneously an individualistic yet collectivist spirit, i.e., simultaneous unity and diversity. One more reason why I believe that magickal practice that ignores the needs of others is lopsided.
 
  

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