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Magic and Society

  
  

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Gypsy Lantern
14:44 / 23.04.04
If we're working from the hypothesis that magic works and tangible results can be accomplished through the medium of sorcery, then what are the social implications of that? I'm interested in how people actually integrate magic into their lives, and adapt this potentiality for change to the environment around them. How many people on the board regularly use their magic to actively engage with the problems that might be going on around them? Helping people you care about, becoming involved in local politics at a magical level, stopping local businesses from going under at the hands of corporations, using this stuff to try and make a difference, etc... If you don't engage with this sort of thing, why not?

If this stuff is real, and we're not all just fooling ourselves, is it not a bit dubious to just be using it to do stuff like make someone call you on the phone, or beat the rush hour traffic, or whatever. Isn't there something a bit questionable about having access to this sort of capacity for making change but to never, or rarely, use it in the world for anything other than pissing about and 'self-development'? It strikes me that a lot of people don't seem to even think about sorcery in these terms, or relate their practice directly to the world around them. I'm interested in why that is.

I think there's a tendancy to shove all of these issues into a box marked "shamanism" and forget about them, as if shamanism is a completely seperate "system" of magic completely divorced from "chaos magic" or whatever flavour people happen to identify with. "All that 'serving the community' stuff? On a different shelf in the occult bookstore mate, nowt to do with me".

I think that's a load of bollocks. If you can make stuff happen, then using that ability to intervene in situations that really desperately need some kind of intervention, is not some magical mystical "shamanic" vocation. It's just taking responsibility for what you are. Surely?
 
 
Bear
15:41 / 23.04.04
There are groups around that use magick to do exactly the sort of things you mention, the N14 group for example is currently working on a ritual to "bring forth" an alternative candidate for the US elections or to fight capitalism.

I think it's interesting point, most of the discussion on here seem to be centred on workings for ones own benefit (myself included) Even most modern books are centred around magick to change yourself to fit into the modern world rather than changing the world around you.

I heard someone somewhere say that originally the term white magic applied to helping others around you and black magic was used to describe changing things for your own benefit.

Has it always been like this though? I know the earliest traditionals were based on helping communities, healers etc. and still are in many parts of the world - maybe it's Western thing?
 
 
LykeX
16:03 / 23.04.04
I have done a few things in this direction, rather simply. For example I made a sigil for my father to "get well soon" and such.
On a broader level I had some ideas while reading about time magick. If you could fuck with time on a city wide basis, for example. Making everyone in the city go home thinking, "damn, this day ended fast", or something.
Or, something I just thought of in relation to politics, you could target the politicians you disagree with, so they'll be late for every important meeting and vote, thus limiting their power. At the moment I'm not skilled enough to do something like this, but I'll keep it in mind for the day I am.

But then, while we're at it with the ethics, is it ethical to do so? You're still working for your own benefit, even if it also benefits others. You're still pushing your view of how things should be. Is it any different?
 
 
charrellz
17:34 / 23.04.04
I kinda agree with the ethics thing. 'Helping the community' is ALOT different from 'pushing my will into law.' Granted, you may believe you're doing good, but what if you're wrong? Or what if the community doesn't like your brand of good.

I tend to avoid things on a big scale. If it works, it would probably put me on a pretty bad power trip, and that couldn't end well.

Oh, and if you think helping friends or loved ones with their problems etc. is the social thing to do with your magick, isn't that still being selfish? After all, they are your friends.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
18:40 / 23.04.04
I agree wholeheartedly with the tone of this thread. In fact, the majority of my elaborate magic* is for other people or for a greater good than my own. That's partly coming from a guilt-complex place and partly from a sense of duty. After all, it's powerful stuff and in my experience it does work. So if a friend's sick or there's a situation I can intervene in, why shouldn't I?

I am still however suspicious of political magic. That is most likely the same "toes in the water" anxiety that one gets at the beginning of, say, magic itself. Not wanting to jump in the pool for fear of waves. But for some reason, and it came up tangentially in the Bush-Magic thread, I don't do political work myself.

That being said, most of my selfless work is directed to an undefined "greater good," per Buddhist ethics, which on one hand is something I believe in and on the other is a cop-out for not directly fucking with people's lives. I don't trust The World According To Seamus and so I try to let things take their own paths. But then there are the cases of ill friends or people in some trouble, in which I have performed elaborate and daily rituals to send them mojo. And that has been resoundingly successful.

Rereading the topic abstract: "social and political implications..." and "making the phone ring..." The phone rings if someone wants to call me. If not, it's my own damn fault. It hit me the other night that, as much as I try to avoid saying it, there's a big part of me that doesn't want to change and I often use "magic" or magical theory to escape that. Instead of making sigils for a new lifestyle, it comes down revving myself up and going out and making one (mind you, I still make the sigil as backup if I get desperate).
In that sense, magic can be just the revving you need. But there's still the feet-on-the-ground work to be done that does not happen by sitting in your room.

Social and political implications? That carries over into the Invisibles recruitment dream thread. Wanna be a rebel anarchist witch? Why not startcher own coven? Mind you I haven't and I as I said am suspicious of political magic (for now). But (this is turning into a personal pep-talk) the early existentialists' position is a good one to take. Your political magical goal may not be anything more than maximum freedom for maximum people.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
19:20 / 23.04.04
'Helping the community' is ALOT different from 'pushing my will into law.' Granted, you may believe you're doing good, but what if you're wrong? Or what if the community doesn't like your brand of good.

So it’s better to do absolutely nothing but sit on your arse and use magic to amuse yourself by making the phone ring? It isn’t worth actually trying to find out what’s going on around you and how your magic can relate to that? Why does relating magic to society always come down to vast incantations for world peace or getting the ruling party voted out of office – it’s always things that don’t actually involve much thought or engagement at a personal level. I’m not really talking about imposing your will and personal agenda on Government. Magic doesn’t seem to work as simply as that anyway. I’m talking about finding out where help is needed and providing it as best you can. If you don’t think you possess the qualities of judgement that allow you to discern whether an act of magic is appropriate or not, then perhaps you shouldn’t be using it in the first place.

You could extend that line of thinking to stop you from doing anything: “no, mustn’t impose my will on that mugger robbing the old lady across the street, what about his free will” or “mustn’t vote against that MP who wants to bring in concentration camps for asylum seekers, because what if I might somehow be doing wrong?”. You can’t make broad generalisations with this sort of work, you have to look at the specifics of each situation. Each situation will be different and each situation will require a lot of thought to work out the most appropriate method of intervention. You have to be involved, learn about the issues that are going on around you, and be confident enough to decisively act. If the sorcery is real, then surely you should at least try and be sure that you are “doing good” – whatever sort of magic you’re doing. I think you have to take responsibility for the ramifications of your actions, and make damn sure that you are providing a “brand of good” that serves your community, rather than your notions of what they might want, to the best of your ability. Otherwise what are you going to do with the magic, just treat it like a little parlour game for the rest of your life and gabble about it on the net afterwards? Why are you engaging with this stuff?

I tend to avoid things on a big scale. If it works, it would probably put me on a pretty bad power trip, and that couldn't end well.

So taking responsibility for your own actions isn’t an option then? Don’t do stuff on a big scale. Work magic at a grassroots level. Just fucking help people when your instinct suggests that it’s needed. It’s not exactly an ethical minefield. At least think about trying to do something for someone, somewhere, rather than doing nothing and feeling smug about it.

Oh, and if you think helping friends or loved ones with their problems etc. is the social thing to do with your magick, isn't that still being selfish? After all, they are your friends.

Fuck them then. My best mate desperately needs a job cos he’s been unemployed for months, but fuck him and his problems cos I’m cooking up this really wicked servitor to make me experience time 3 minutes faster. My gran is really worried about how she’s going to pay the gas bill next month, but bollocks to that, I’ve got a cool hypersigil that’s going to put me in contact with the machine elves. They can sort their own shit out, cos y’know, if I used magic to help them it’d be ethically dodgy anyway because they’re my friends and, really, when you think about that’s pretty selfish anyway in the grand scheme of things. Fucks sake!
 
 
Perfect Tommy
19:52 / 23.04.04
Democracy goes beyond merely voting—there's activism and political contributions and lobbying and letter-writing, from the individual scale up to special interest groups of extraordinary wealth.

So, proposed: the magickal citizen goes right ahead and uses hir sorcerous influence, with full on 'I have an agenda' intent. This is ethically equivalent to mundane activism, because there are many others exerting their non-voting will in other ways, and if the sorcerous influence is not best for society, those other impulses will act against it.

I suppose I'm suggesting that the checks and balances inherent to society being an enormous entity with a zillion opposing viewpoints makes it okay to just go for it. I do believe in the efficacy of magic (well, usually =) ) but I think that believing that a ceremony to de-elect some official will entirely on its own swing the outcome is a wee bit megalomaniacal.

(I'm improvising here, but whatcha think?)
 
 
Sobek
20:45 / 23.04.04

I do a lot of socio-political magic(k) (under promotion of either Individualism and/or a free market), but I do it because I want to live in a more interesting world and not because I feel obliged to.
 
 
Chiropteran
20:48 / 23.04.04
Perfect Tommy: this fits nicely with the notion that magickal ethics need not be any different than "mundane" ethics -- if it's alright to take "direct action" against an intolerable government, then there is nothing wrong with magickal direct action. Likewise, there's nothing wrong with cursing a person to die -- so long as you also wouldn't bat an eye at poisoning them. If you wouldn't try to do something without magick, don't go doing it with magick, and vice-versa (speaking only on an ethical level, of course - there may well be practical [or tactical] differences between approaches).

To flip this around another way, and tie back to the topic, if a person has a lot of money, is there anything wrong with using it to help people in their community? In fact, some people would argue that they are ethically obligated to do just that. The same if you have medical knowledge or other resources those around you don't have. If magick is assumed to work, how is it any different? One can certainly argue the "obligation" part, but the essential ethical question is the same for magick as it is for any other behavior or resource.

~L
 
 
gotham island fae
21:03 / 23.04.04
I do near all my magickal work toward societies' best ends. It actually assists me in my self-seeking as well. I need to improve myself continually to better work toward change in the world around me. Directing my work/play toward something greater than me helps to submerge the self-directed improvement goal.

HML work with N'Aton is all about helping the humanity around OneSelf.
 
 
Charlie's Horse
22:42 / 23.04.04
"Oh, and if you think helping friends or loved ones with their problems etc. is the social thing to do with your magick, isn't that still being selfish? After all, they are your friends."

Wellll - this can be expanded. 'If you make the world a better place, isn't that just being selfish? After all, you live here.' That's true. You would in theory reap the rewards of making the world a better place - if freedom goes up, you get more; if more people get into magic, then you'll have more folks to bounce ideas off of or work with; if Bush gets canned, you too might sigh with relief; if everyone in the world gets happier, you might just have a nicer day for it. Is that selfish - to want to make the whole world better? Sure, but only if the word 'selfish' is THE highest virtue. That the kind of 'selfishness' needs to get a lot more common.

Honestly, this thread reminds me of why I want to have all of your children (yes, YOU!).

I've been meaning to make an Invisibles collage highlighting brain/personality change through meditation, and paste it all over campus. Been meaning to do this for a LONG while. Thanks for the reminder. I've done a few workings towards helping friends out, but it's been fairly me-centric stuff otherwise. I really appreciate this kick in the psychic teeth.
 
 
gravitybitch
01:03 / 24.04.04
Thanks for starting this thread. It's crystallized some questions and qualms I've had for a while now...

Yeah, it's nice to have the hot thing call me up for a date, and it's nice to be able to manifest parking spaces when I trundle home at a late hour after that hot date... but, quite frankly, that gets boring pretty quickly... so what's next as a magickal challenge?

How many of us live in a black&white world? My immediate "neighborhood" is pretty evenly grey - no clear-cut right vs wrong - and the more closely any issue approaches a real good/evil divide, seems that that issue is either too big for one person to handle or is just too distant/nonpersonal.

Also, just as a hypothetical question - where does one's responsibility end?? I agree that those with (funds, skills, whatever) should be contributing to those who lack (whatever), but no one person can fix the entire world.... Where does using one's magickal prowess turn into overextension and burnout, and where does it become meddling??
 
 
Gendudehashadenough
05:49 / 24.04.04
First, I am a novice at pretty much all of this, though i read a bit, but i've also done a great deal of thinking along these lines.

As already implied, ethics and/or community awarness MUST be considered when doing any kind of magickal working. As Gyps says, one should know ones community, and the specifics thereof, before undertaking any kind of magickal effect (result) that may or may not, significantly influence others. And genuinly do it for them, if one is not insecure about oneself, could they then discern altruism, from underlying or even pure self-interest?

Is either one of these regularly causaly bad times, shit gone haywire, or just plain carelessness? Are they permanent? What are the ramifications of helping others, i.e. for oneself vs. selflessness?

Acting with sudden precise, prehaps ethical (if effecting others), intent one can get to know the environment and engage with it, which i'm pretty sure is the point of all this. through the knowledge of the self, one can then understand ones environment, or in the case of of the TWATS thoughs facets of personality.

From what i understand Shamanism, the medicine man of the community, shares his knowledge, like a doctor, attorney, (fill in intellectual specialty). Yea, well guess what, shamans, are the spiritual doctors, one of the many lables one can apply to magickal self-inprovement. again, the issue of ethics comes up when those abilities become involved with other people, politics, etc.

So i guess my hypothetical/future imporved self would actively true to influence his environment to inspire good, and all around kindness, to the modern world, helping people when appropriate. Knowing that i actively will the environment around me, more often alone?, but sometimes in random situations, it's likely that most times it would be something like the fucking phone, or to laid, or whatever, cause i'm sure that's happened before, with no HUGE rammifications.

Tread lightly, treat everything as foreign then study, and understand. Just try not to fuck it up.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
06:11 / 24.04.04
Also, just as a hypothetical question - where does one's responsibility end?? I agree that those with (funds, skills, whatever) should be contributing to those who lack (whatever), but no one person can fix the entire world....

I'm reminded of the so-called 80-10-10 rule of personal finance: You should save 10% of your income, donate 10% to your church or to favored charities, and 80% is everything else. Maybe some similar kind of rule might apply here, dividing up your juju into some amount for social change, some amount for personal growth, and some amount for everyday occurrences and hottie-location.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:07 / 24.04.04
I’d like to apologise to Charrellz for being overly confrontational in my second post on this thread. I’d had too many ludicrous cocktails after work and was feeling a bit argumentative. For the record, I wasn’t really addressing you personally in my response, as I obviously haven’t got a clue about what your own practice involves. I hate doing that ‘singling out every line of someone’s post and having a go at it’ thing. It’s not on. My purpose for starting this thread was to just try and get these issues talked about a bit more. Even if my own opinions on the subject are way off the mark, I think it’s an interesting area of debate that doesn’t seem to get very much attention.

On the question of ‘where does responsibility end? I think you can probably look to other professions such as being a doctor, lawyer, etc… for a workable model. Some Doctors get on an altruism kick and try to do too much, eventually overloading themselves with work and running the risk of making a mistake. If you’re a doctor, mistakes cost lives, so a similar criteria should probably be applied to magic. I think it’s important to try and get the right balance, approach the whole issue creatively and relate the skills and abilities that you have to the world around you in a way that works for you. Just try to do it in a way that instinctively feels right, and keep a check on yourself throughout the whole process to make sure lazy practice or dubious power trips aren’t creeping in. I’m not really suggesting that everyone gets magically involved in local politics or anything like that. I just think it’s important to get the sorcery out of the bedsit and into the world. It could just be as simple as being aware of the issues that your close friends have in their lives and offering to help out if your skills fit the situation. Or it could involve getting to know your area a bit better, maybe there’s a library or community centre up the road that provides a really valuable service to people but is having trouble staying afloat, maybe there’s something you could do to intervene? I do think it’s as much about getting to know your environment and engaging with it creatively and magically, as it is about acting from a sense of altruism. And I think there’s a lot to be said for that approach, as opposed to just shutting yourself off in a temple/bedsit and disappearing up your own astral.

How many of us live in a black&white world? My immediate "neighborhood" is pretty evenly grey - no clear-cut right vs wrong - and the more closely any issue approaches a real good/evil divide, seems that that issue is either too big for one person to handle or is just too distant/nonpersonal.

Absolutely. But I think learning how to negotiate the complexity of these situations and how best to relate the practice of magic to what is going on around you is a skill that you can aspire to develop. I think there’s more to community sorcery than learning how to stick pins in dolls, etc… there’s a whole skill set based around navigating the complex palate of grey areas you’re likely to run into when applying magic to the world around you. There’s no such thing as black and white, good and evil, etc… but that doesn’t automatically preclude you from taking action magically, anymore than it precludes you from taking action physically. I totally agree with what Perfect Tommy said earlier about the sorcerous influence just being one influence on a situation, not instantly overruling everything else with a wave of a wand. If that were the case we wouldn’t be living in the kind of world we’re now living in. I think that sorcery works, but it doesn’t necessarily give you ultimate power over every facet of everything. Or else we would all be far more rich and influential (relaxes into seat of private jet as hostess passes jewelled goblet fashioned from Crowley’s skull and filled up with champagne that costs more than your mum).

In a lot of cases there is no such thing as black and white, but I don’t think there ever has been. I think there’s a degree of romanticisation that gets applied to the concept of the “village shaman” - as if that’s something that used to happen in some idealised past when things where simpler and everyone lived in straw huts and the sorcerer had a clearly defined role. I don’t know how accurate that really is. Did anything really ever happen in such an idealised storybook kind of way? I’d hazard a guess that the hypothetical village shaman might of had an equally complex set of issues to try and navigate, and their main job was trying to actively relate the sorcery to a situation that changed every day. I don’t think it’s ever been straightforward and shrinkwrap packaged, but the rewards might be in rising to the challenge of whatever complex and difficult situations you might encounter.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:13 / 24.04.04
Tread lightly, treat everything as foreign then study, and understand. Just try not to fuck it up.

That nails in a sentence what I was trying to express.
 
 
EvskiG
15:13 / 24.04.04
There's a long-standing form of political activism that's closely aligned with magic, even if it doesn't describe itself as such.

Abbie Hoffman was one such practitioner. Much of his work can be understood as magic.

One example: to draw attention to the greed implicit in capitalism he dumped a pile of dollar bills onto the floor of the U.S. Stock Exchange from an observation balcony. It stopped all trading while the traders on the floor scrambled for the money. It got a ton of media coverage and conveyed the avarice of the capitalist system to the public in a dramatic, symbolic sense.

Another example: before a gigantic anti-war march on Washington he announced that he and his fellow Yippies would levitate the Pentagon. Not march on it, not protest at it, but levitate it. Again, he got a ton of publicity. Abbie explained in interviews that a pentagon is an ancient symbol of evil, and that the Yippies intended to circle the building to exorcise the evil spirits responsible for U.S. policy in Vietnam. Right-wing spokesmen looked ridiculous if they even tried to respond. At the actual protest, Yippies placed flowers in the barrels of National Guardsmen's rifles. The pictures circulated around the world.

Working in metaphors. Using your opponents' weaknesses against them. That's magic.
 
 
LykeX
20:59 / 24.04.04
In that relation, I think this site is relevant. If I remember correctly, one of the articles even mentions the incident with the stock exchange.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
14:56 / 25.04.04
I think one reason that more people don't engage in magick for the community is simply fear.

Fear that you'll get it wrong.
Fear that you're foisting your will on unconsenting people.
Fear that by even contemplating the idea, you are opening yourself to delusions of granduer: "If I do a working to bring health and happiness to my neighbourhood, then I'll end up thinking I'm the Messiah or something."
Fear of one's own power: "If I admit to myself that I have the power to change things around me, I'll start hurting people. I have to stay small and powerless, or I'll become a tyrant."
Fear of responsibility: "If I do a working to improve the lot of the people around me, and it works, then I'll have to keep on doing workings like that. I want to keep my magick for myself!"

Fear is very powerful, and it can be very hard to free oneself from its grip.
 
 
gravitybitch
15:18 / 25.04.04
Thank you, Mordant! I recognised way too many of those...

Need to add (at least) one more - fear of repercussions: "If I start doing successful workings on a larger scale, I'll get noticed and smacked down/get hit by a larger scale backlash."
 
 
EvskiG
22:33 / 25.04.04
Of course, I'd guess that charging a sigil or dancing widdershins in a circle is far less likely to have a meaningful effect on society than going to a community board meeting, writing a letter to your representative, or contributing to a local political organization.

All of the above could be considered magical acts. Some are more direct than others.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
01:32 / 26.04.04
There's no reason you can't do both. Pop over to FaxYourMP.com and have your say, then slip on the ol' tau robe and get your wand out. It's pretty much second nature to a lot of activists I know (esp. round here) to combine magick with their other, more "mundane" activities.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
10:47 / 26.04.04
Something I'd like to focus on in respect to this thread is this notion of 'Helping the community'. How does one define "community". Is your "community" for example, your network of peers - friends, magical colleagues, fellow pagans - people you've met through going to moots, camps, etc.? Is "community" just your immediate family or an extended kinship network - say for example people who share similar poltical ideology or identify with being a member of a minority group? Or is "community" the people you know in your locality?
Perhaps it would be more accurate to speak of "communities" - as most of the people I know who are grass-roots community-oriented magicians work across different networks - whether it be doing magical work on behalf of friends, family or doing client-based work: anything from tarot readings to house blessings and the like. What is interesting (in relation to this discussion) is that for most of my friends - it's not that they usually "decide" to get involved with other people, but that other people seek them out with a problem. Sometimes its in response to an advertisement, but more often, its through word-of-mouth. This is quite different to staying in one's temple/bedroom and working alone, enchanting to influence an issue without actually going out and engaging with people.

I think Bear in Mind raises a good point in the lack of books relating to this kind of work - but really, I don't think it's something you can 'learn' from a book. You learn it either by doing it, or by working with a more experienced person who's already doing it. Equally, Gypsy makes a good point about the tendency to "romanticise" the role of the village shaman. But there's a wealth of good quality ethnological material available that looks at magical specialists who work within communities - in both urbanised and non-urbanised contemporary cultures. Bear in Mind also raised the question of whether it's a "Western thing" (i.e. the idea of magic being primarily self-oriented rather than about helping others) - but I think that if this is so, it's a relatively recent one - the UK for example had a long tradition of "Cunning men" (and women) and village healers/witches. I don't think these 'traditions' have died out, but they have become less visible. There might well be someone not far away from you who is fulfilling this sort of role, but you won't necessarily hear about them unless you get engaged in your community, in much the same way that you have to 'put your face about' to meet the 'right' people who can score you drugs, guns, or knocked-off mobile phones.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
11:11 / 26.04.04
Mordant: I think one reason that more people don't engage in magick for the community is simply fear....Fear is very powerful, and it can be very hard to free oneself from its grip.

I'd tend to agree with a lot of that, but it's a bit unsettling. A lot of the rhetoric of contemporary magic aligns itself with taboo breaking, klesha smashing, ego-busting activities. Exercises that challenge the boundaries of the self are often considered part-and-parcel of the contemporary magical curriculum. But at the same time, there seems to be this odd nervousness about confronting the various pitfalls, challenges and difficulties that accompany the kind of sorcerous action we've been discussing. To the extent that it gets sidelined, not talked about very much, put away in a box marked "shamanism" and left for somebody else to open. So what's going on there?

It seems to me that the various fears outlined above, particularly the ones associated with taking responsibility for our own actions, responsibility for our own power and abilities, responsibility for what we actually intend to do with all of these skills we're developing, etc... deserve a bit of attention. It can be hard to free oneself from the grip of fear, but doesn't that go with the territory to some extent? Shouldn't magic be a bit challenging? Put you into some uncomfortable areas? Lead you into difficult situations every once in a while?

I think a case could conceivably be made that by dealing in the things that we deal in as magicians, we are perhaps implicitly signing on the dotted line to confront this stuff, to challenge these fears we might have, to accept the responsibilities that come with the abilities and aptitudes we're developing.

What's the alternative? What are we actually going to do with the magic once it starts working? Are we practising magic for the sake of it, or are we practising with an eye to turning professional at some stage? What would "turning professional" as a magician mean to you personally? Where is it all going? A lot of people like to claim that their magic is hastening some kind of evolutionary shift, but how exactly? What are the acheivable goals? Where do you want to be with the magic in 10, 20 or 30 years time? What sort of work do you want to be doing? Why?

I think all of these issues are inherent in the question: how do you relate your magic to society and the world around you? Cos if you're not thinking about this sort of stuff then where does your magic exist? Where does it all happen? In a bubble? In your bedroom? In your imagination?
 
 
illmatic
11:18 / 26.04.04
On this subject: This book seems very relevant - Cunning Folk - Popular Magic in English History by Owen Davies.

I was thinking a little about why more people don't go this route and go onto to focus more on self-development style practices (I'd include myself in this, and say such practices are of great value - babies, bathwater, throwing out of etc. - another thread maybe). I'd say it's because even if one has consistent success with one's sorcery, once the shock of this wears of, knowing exactly what to do with this is rare, unless you've got a connection whose showing you the way etc as A of G points out above. It'd seem kind of natural to focus in on oneself, perhaps this trend emerges because we're unused tothinking of ourselves as members of communities - it's the whole isolated, urban individual thing again.
 
 
Bear
12:17 / 26.04.04
I think it most of this comes down to communities doesn't it - as mentioned above by various people - I don't want to go on about how in the good old days people could leave their doors open (I'm not that old for a start!) but people are much more private these days. But as also stated there probably are people out ther working for the community it just isn't as common as it used to be.

I was talking to someone last night from Eastern Europe and they were talking about how it's quite common for high ranking politions to go to local witches for advise and to carry out rituals for them, I was thinking how much fuss that would cause here in the UK.

I'm kind of all of the place here, great thread.
 
 
trouser the trouserian
12:40 / 26.04.04
how it's quite common for high ranking politions to go to local witches for advise...

Peter Mandelson's infamous visit to a Voudou doctor (in Brazil?) springs to mind...
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
12:52 / 26.04.04
Aye, I was just about to mention the Mandelson thing. I think that got out because he was daft enough to send a compliments slip or something, which the Brazilian doc then sold to the press for lots of cash. I think this sort of thing probably does go on a lot more than you might think.
 
 
Bear
12:57 / 26.04.04
Not familiar with that I'm afraid....

I guess what I was trying to say is that we (where in I mean London) don't have the same large scale community as some nations. Unless of course you count online communities, I would know who I would talk to for advise on certain magickal issues online or if I needed a tarot reading from a neutral party.

Sorry I seem to be steering this away from the topic abstract, I'll butt out...
 
 
Bear
13:01 / 26.04.04
probably does go on a lot more than you might think.

Yeah I'm sure it does, that's one of the major differences though, in some places it would be quite natural here it's not talked about so openly - maybe if the publics attitude on these things were more open you'd have more people coming forward offering help?
 
 
trouser the trouserian
14:09 / 26.04.04
To the extent that it gets sidelined, not talked about very much, put away in a box marked "shamanism" and left for somebody else to open. So what's going on there?

Well, even "shamanism" is being peddled nowadays as a primarily individualistic practice - it's a rare writer nowadays who will insist that the 'reader' learns their practice from a more experienced practitioner or even gets involved with community-oriented practice. Daniel Noels (author of "The Soul of Shamanism: Western Fantasies, Imaginal Realities") makes the point that:
Neoshamanism is built on a cross-cultural fantasy that we can borrow eclectically and then homogenize the borrowings into an option Westerners can practice safely, quickly, and simply.

The market dominant seems to be very much towards this trend that magic is safe, quick, and simple. Of course, once one steps into the tangled world of dealing with other people, it becomes pretty obvious that neat, prescriptive solutions don't apply.
 
 
charrellz
14:46 / 26.04.04
Gypsy Lantern:
Don't worry about being harsh, atleast you apologized! =) Actually, I think it's good when people pick posts apart - helps me and others see into the issue a little bit more. I do still stick to one point though, that we have to be careful with how far we take it and in what manner. There's a difference between "That local representative is bad, I'll try to create distrust in the community regarding him" and "That local representative is bad, I'll try to get someone to set his house on fire while he's sleeping". More or less repeating someone from earlier: only magickly do what you would be willing to do physically.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
16:37 / 26.04.04
Following on from AOG's point above re individualism, I'd suggest that this is very culturally-histoically specific to now. That as a culture/populace we're very focussed on the individual's needs and agency, to the detriment perhaps of community... Certainly I think we identify much more as individuals, than as syncretic parts of a broader entity, as has been the case in other other cultures/periods...

eg when I was in India recently, learning from mentors/gurus/fathers/teachers seems to be much more the standard/acceptable..... And collectivism/collective responsiblity are much more instinctive.

(which isn't of course to say this this is problem-free.)
 
 
Salamander
17:37 / 26.04.04
I think that if magically iclined persons came out in america and offered to help, one of three things would happen. The first is they would be scoffed at and ignored.
The Second is that it would start a whole new 1970's style which witch hunt, American christianity is making a small comeback in it's death throes, comming out to offer help may be dangerous in your community.
The Third is that they accept help and the first thing that goes wrong or doesn't work the magician is screwed, now s/he has a whole community that thinks, a. this person is an idiot and, b. this person made promises that turned out to be crap, whether or not the magician made any promises or gaurantees.
Helping the community with magick is usaully more trouble than it's worth, unless the communities benifit neatly fits ones own. Then I would say it's up to the magician, just ask yourself, are they worth my trouble?
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
20:45 / 26.04.04
Hermes Nuclear: I think that if magically inclined persons came out in america and offered to help, one of three things would happen…

Again, I think this perspective is conditioned by how you think about the term ‘community’, and how you would go about providing service to it. There are ways and means. Obviously if you ran through the streets of middle America or middle England claiming yourself a “community shaman” and offering services to all and sundry, you might conceivably leave yourself open to the various straw man scenarios that you’ve posited. But that’s not the only way, or in my experience, the most effective way of putting your sorcery to use.

As was stated up thread, once you start actively trying to relate your practice to the world around you, clients turn up. You don’t need to advertise. A good doc who can get the job done always has enough clients. Even if there’s only about three or four close friends who you’ll regularly do stuff for, that’s often enough to keep you fairly busy. And if you’re any good, word spreads. I’ve always got lots of stuff to do for other people, and I’ve never advertised or even really touted my services around to any extent. If you’re engaging with the world around you at a magical level, and thinking in these terms, situations will present themselves to you and demand a response. In a very real sense, you are opening yourself up to a dialogue with the universe. It’s like the old thing about the right book or the right teacher coming along exactly when you’re ready for them. If you are open to the idea of working in this way, situations will arise. It’s less about actively marketing yourself as some kind of big ridiculous magician that’s here to help, and more just thinking about what you do in a different way. Paying attention to whatever’s happening around you and relating your work to what is there. Allowing the magic to fully exist in the world.

Helping the community with magick is usaully more trouble than it's worth, unless the communities benifit neatly fits ones own.

I’m assuming that you’re speaking from experience here, having spent many years working in this field and drawing these clear conclusions from things that you’ve actually done? Yeah? The way I see it, the community is a system. You are a part of that system. Serving the community is always within your interests, because you are a part of it. That’s the whole point.

Then I would say it's up to the magician, just ask yourself, are they worth my trouble?

Who are these imaginary “they” that aren’t worth your trouble? The guy who sits opposite you at work? The best mates you’ve known since you were a kid? Your mother? This is where your community starts, and it spreads outwards through all of the social networks that you are involved in. I think your whole argument is tainted by this horrible Thatcher-esque notion of there being no more society, no more community. Of course there’s a fucking community! How often do people get their jobs through someone they know? Or find flat shares? Or even meet their partners? To get all Hakim Bey for a minute, everyone has their running tribe. As a species, we don’t really organise ourselves that much differently from how we did when we lived in clay huts - in the sense that everyone has people in their lives that they care about. This is where the “shamanic community” begins.
 
  

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