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Kill Bill Vol. 2

 
  

Page: (1)23

 
 
agvvv
12:02 / 18.04.04
So, lets discuss Tarantinos latest latest. Good? Bad? Ugly? Have to go now, just thought I'd get this one rolling..
 
 
THX-1138
12:38 / 18.04.04
are spoilers allowed yet?
 
 
Tom Coates
14:36 / 18.04.04
Is there any chance that when people started topics they could put a little effort into it? I mean there are no shortages of reviews out there that you could quote or cite, no shortage of discussions that could emerge from the film (movie violence / aesthetics / pastiche or homage), no shortage of worthwhile discussions about plot of comparisons with other films / reference spotting. Even some local homegrown reviews or descriptions of your expectations / hopes for it would be something. Just throwing a topic open like this is - frankly - a bit lame.
 
 
PatrickMM
16:46 / 18.04.04
I saw the film yesterday. It's a great film, with some really amazing sequences, but I think it suffers from the break into two films much more than Volume One does.

Spoilers from here on out...

I absolutely loved Volume One, I think it was one of the best movies to come out in years, just full of amazing visuals, great music, and set in an awesome universe. Like Star Wars or Indiana Jones, it was just so fun, and full of love for the material, you couldn't help but get caught up in it.

Volume two is a bit less pulp, it's more grounded in reality, and as much as a revenge movie can, deals with some more complicated issues. At times, it felt a bit too talky, but that's mainly becuase I was expecting something with more action, based on what I saw in Volume one. It felt a bit looser than Volume one, which was so tight, no scene was wasted.

While that may be sounding a little negative, I still loved the film. The buried alive sequence was really disturbing, with amazing use of sound to create claustrophobia. There must have been 30 seconds to a minute of black, and it worked very well.

The whole Pai Mei sequence was great. He was such an odd character, and those crazy zooms were great. Beatrix vs. Elle Driver was an amazing fight, even more brutal than the fight with Vernita Green in the first movie. Elle was the only person in this movie that really had the iconic look each of the characters had in the first one, so that was good to see.

The actual confrontation with Bill was great, particularly the fake shoot 'em up sequence with her daughter. For a while there, I was thinking maybe she won't actually kill Bill. The actual death of Bill was a bit of an anticlimax, but I still liked it, and the actual ending of the movie was pretty strong, particularly the speech about always being a killer, which casts a shadow over the happy ending.

However, this movie demonstrated why they should never have been split up. After watching Volume One, I was thinking it was good they were split up because after the 88/O-Ren fight, I wouldn't have been able to take any more fighting. However, that was exactly the point. That was supposed to give you your full of fighting, so the rest of the movie could concentrate on characters. When split up, you want more fighting, or at least I did, and generally speaking, you don't get it.

So, when combined again, hopefully, this will be an even better film than the sum of its parts.
 
 
agvvv
17:26 / 18.04.04
Sorry Tom. I realise it might seem lame. To elaborate a little on topics of discussion that might be interesting:

- The Violence
- The Volumes
- The Allusions
- The Point
- The Plot
 
 
eddie thirteen
19:40 / 18.04.04
I'm glad they were split up in the sense that four hours is just too much movie for the human bladder to handle. But I kinda wish Tarantino had called Uma back for just some random fight sequence for the top of the film -- like, any random fight sequence -- because the talk-to-senseless-violence ratio was just way too unbalanced after the exhilarating kill-frenzy of Volume One. Excellent film, though.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:30 / 18.04.04
Kill Bill Vol. 1 and Vol. 2 = SO BEST.

I'm not sure if I really even want to talk about it any further!
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
22:38 / 18.04.04
I heard he's shooting scenes soon for the sequel, to be completed in 15 years.

Yeeeeeeee!

The geeks are truly inheriting the Earth. No one but a slimmed down fatbeard would ever think of something that cool (that didn't involve, you know, a documentary of, I don't know, some feebs).
 
 
eddie thirteen
23:23 / 18.04.04
Hmmmmmmm...so at this rate, it'll probably be his next film.
 
 
--
14:21 / 20.04.04
It was quite good (I especially got a thrill when the "Kill Bill 2" title screen appeared with booming operatic music in the background). After all the violence of the first film the more emotional tone of this film was very surprising. As noted the buried alive sequence was very disturbing, and I actually liked the anti-climax of the film... You'd expect this giant dual and just when it seems to start, it ends. Most revenge films leave me unsatisfied because the "bad guy" has no redeeming qualities while the "good guy" is a saint (Patriot Games anyone?) But here the moral boundaries are blurred because both Bill and the Bride aren't exactly ideal role models... I also enjoyed the respect the two had for each other, something you don't often see in revenge films. The acting is also very good, esp. Thurman and Carrandine (why Warren Beatty passed up this film I'll never understand).

In short, Tarantino has created an epic hybrid of spagetti western, martial arts, anime, splatter horror, and revenge films that is probably one of the most incredible things I've seen in years. This is like a film version of the Grand Theft Auto gmaes. Tarantino has created a world that goes by it's own logic and it's fascinating to see it unfold. I really must get the soundtrack to this.

Also, in further good news, "Kill Bill Vol. 2" was #1 in the States box office while "The Passion" dropped 72%. Ha ha. I think there's still hope for America if a film that features Uma Thurman ripping someone's eyeball out and stomping it into pulp can reach #1 at the box office.
 
 
ibis the being
17:12 / 20.04.04
I agree that Vol. 2 was "a bit talky." Specifically, I could have done without the voiceover at the beginning. I realize that not everyone went out and rented V.1 on Wednesday to refresh their memories, but still - was the "previously on..." actually necessary? I mean, the movie is called Kill Bill, we're not likely to have forgetten the premise.

Still, V.2 and the movie(s) overall are, dare I say, masterful. Distinctly superior to his other films. Tarantino has such fluency in his "cool movie" medium, I get the feeling watching it that he can do anything, and do it well. And he uses everything at his disposal - the camera, dialogue, sound, acting, and so on... not like a movie where you say, "well, the cinematography was great!" but nothing else was as great.

And Uma... so watchable, it's a good thing she's in nearly every scene bc you don't want to take your eyes off of her. You can see why Tarantino's always being accused of being in love with her, the way these movies display every subtle shift of her body or facial expression in luscious detail.

What's loveable about Kill Bill is that it's so joyful, somewhat improbably given the plot, it's just exploding with joy - it's hard not to love.
 
 
Sobek
20:17 / 20.04.04
That last chapter was like running out an engram. Or picking at a scab. Or both at once. It just had so much TRUTH, I nearly wept. I have been a repeat customer at the cinema this week.

"How else will he see you again?"
 
 
Tamayyurt
12:00 / 21.04.04
I'm going to stick my neck out and say that Vol. 2 was a better movie than Vol. 1. Yeah, Vol. 1 was a lot cooler, better visuals, and it had a bunch of easter eggs for Asian Flick Fans but Vol. 2 had great dialogue and character development. It was less obvious (instead of a bloody sword fight at the end we get an even more devastating conversation (and the Five Point Exploding Heart Punch). But I loved them both.

Also, I saw them back to back and I have to say it would've been too long for me to watch in a theater. So I'm glad that broke it up.

Why do you think they changed the openning credits from the kung fu style font to the more 40's noir style?
 
 
eddie thirteen
17:58 / 21.04.04
I can guess that the change in font style had to do with the shift in emphasis away from the Asian-influenced violence and imagery of Vol. 1 to the more noirish themes of revisiting the past for vengeance. Though it felt more like neo-noir than the old school '40s/'50s stuff evoked by the intro scene with the Bride addressing the camera from the car. The sequence with Budd, in particular, felt kinda Blood Simple-era Coen Brothers to me, in terms of the squalor, Budd's dissolution and (it goes without saying) the whole Texas thing. That said, I don't think Vol. 2 is especially noirish beyond that sequence, and I suspect Tarantino did it because he thought it was, like, cool.
 
 
DuskySally
04:56 / 22.04.04
A couple of comments:

1. I love Esteban.And I'm really impressed by Michael Parks, the man who plays him. He also plays the cop (with all the sunglasses) in Kill Bill 1- the same character he played in Dusk til Dawn.

2. Is it just me, or is there a connection between Kill Bill (both movies) and Nathaniel Hawthorne's The Scarlet Letter?
 
 
--
16:57 / 22.04.04
Let me get this straight... people are complaining about a Tarantino film being "talky?" Have you not seen his first three films?
 
 
Baz Auckland
05:32 / 23.04.04
I can't wait to watch them together... and seeing David Carradine play the flute and talk of Shaolin monks was worth the price of admission... it really wouldn't have been nearly as good with Beatty...

...and with luck, this will give Carradine a Travolta-like comback... except, you know, David Carradine rocks and probably wouldn't make a Battlefield Earth....
 
 
Sekhmet
16:30 / 23.04.04
The style differences, movie-to-movie and scene-to-scene, were location-driven. In Japan, it was anime pulp style. In China, kung-fu chop-saki. In the American Southwest, spaghetti western. Nice effect. And I missed Tarantino's usual dialogue in the first movie. That's what was great about Pulp Fiction, you know, the French Cheeseburger conversation and all that.

And B.B. was just too cute. Who knew he could work with kids?
 
 
The Natural Way
18:18 / 24.04.04
Loved it. So did Fraely and Gambit and Boboss and everyone else (but they're not on Barbelith, so who gives a fuck what they think?). Nothing much to add. Treat.
 
 
diz
20:21 / 25.04.04
finally saw it last night. my mind is reeling with the utter coolness of this movie.

favorite bits at the moment:

- Budd, the rock salt in the shotgun, and the coffin scene
- Bill playing the flute
- the Bride trying to eat rice
- Elle losing her other eye
- "congratulations"
- the Bride vs Bill

that's all i feel like saying at the moment.
 
 
Jester
21:19 / 25.04.04
Loved it

Granted, I haven't seen Vol. 1 since the cinema, but it did seem like they were very different in terms of characterisation, especially. I am definately looking forward to watching them back to back to see how that works out. In Vol. 1, Uma's character was kind of cartoonish - very cool, but not made up of much except the drive to revenge. Obviously, in Vol. 2, having to explain the background forced the issue of what she was like before/outside of the revenge-led situation. I loved the 'silver screen'/Noir moments: Uma's face shining our of the screen like Greta Garbo. I thought it was very cool, especially considering all those reviewers/armchair critics talking about her ugly feet et al after the first one. I loved the way Tarentino took this almost comic book, invincible hero figure from Vol. 1, and made her vunerable again in that perfect, claustraphobic coffin scene. And cutting away to the flash back just when it was getting unbearable. And then the relief/excitement when you realise *why* he cut to that flashback... And I could just go on and on...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:02 / 25.04.04
I was very pleasantly surprised by Vol 2, having felt almost entirely unmoved by Kill Bill -- this film involved and engaged me a great deal more. Volume 1 was about as exciting as watching someone else play a martial arts game. I really can't "feel" anything about violence without some investment in the characters, and so every scene in the sequel was far more powerful because of the greater emotional bite.

I hope I can be excused if I make a point I've already posted on my other regular forum. That "Superman" speech; for a supposed comics geek -- and surely this is the director speaking here showing off his own kewl idea, rather than putting ignorance into Bill's mouth -- Tarantino comes across as pretty dumb.

Bill's second big speech about Superman and his secret identity. This last riff, though unoriginal and inaccurate to genuine comic book fans*, seems no less memorable, distinctive and typically Tarantino than the "Royale with Cheese" routine.

*not only has it been pointed out many times that Clark Kent is the secret identity, but this isn't unique (Martian Manhunter/John Jones for instance) and to say the "art" on Superman is disappointing, when it's run since 1938 with thousands of different artists, is ridiculous.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
22:03 / 25.04.04
Come to think of it, I think it might have been Umberto Eco who first made that observation about Superman, in his classic The Role of the Reader.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:32 / 26.04.04
I thought it was drab. Dull. Insipid. I got bored. I kicked the seat in front of me. I think Tarantino was directing well and writing disastrously. I thought the script was flat. I think he just cut the movie down the middle. I can't understand why you'd have a zingy first half which sufffered from a lack of story and a wordy second half which desperately needed leavening. I thought much of the movie was pointless. I'm stunned by the idea that he felt unable to make one movie out of that.

In all, a raspberry.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
09:36 / 26.04.04
kovacs, I had much of the same reaction to the first volume (ok, I HATED it), and was more than pleasantly surprised this time. I had a great time the whole way through.

The first one was so action-packed it forgot to give me a story, and I was bored. Maybe vol.2 could have used one more fight sequence, but after we got Uma's cringeworthy driving-the-car, "I went on what movie critics called a rampage of revenge" meta-theatrical intro, I thought the writing picked up considerably.

I love the fact that this film can hold an audience on tenterhooks while they're staring at a black screen in the burial scene. Uma looked bloody fantastic the entire time (and I was really sick of staring at her big toe in vol.1). I thought the complete change of environment from comic book to domestic banality was great (especially watching the ruthless killer cut the crusts off a sandwich for his daughter).

not sure about: reworking "she's not there" by the zombies.

also: there were only two men who seemed to be sex symbols; Esteban and Bill, and both were at least 20 years older than Kiddo. Her two teachers (Bill and Pai Mei) also fall into the "older man" category. Any thoughts on this? Is it that a highly-skilled killer who is a woman is a match only for an older man?
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
09:39 / 26.04.04
Bill's second big speech about Superman and his secret identity. This last riff, though unoriginal and inaccurate to genuine comic book fans*, seems no less memorable, distinctive and typically Tarantino than the "Royale with Cheese" routine.

Agreed. It was a pretty way to make a point, but when Bill started into it the first thing that popped into my head was the notion that Tarantino's probably been thinking about that since he was in high school - it didn't flow with the rest of the text.
 
 
_Boboss
10:40 / 26.04.04
oh yes the zombies.

that bit really stuck out, really throws his self-professedly 'cool' music taste into relief..

bit i'm remembering best is her with gun biker-jacket sword...and a hippy skirt. worked well.

oi, hannah! that bit in blade runner where you get injured and do the spaz fit? do that.

she looked very tasty i thought, got sick at times of qt's frame-by-frame infatuation with the lead. liked the big ugly hands and feet on everyone though - working men and women.

and the pointlessness, the romantic tragedy of the two of them knowing they must fight to the death - stupid emotional touchpoint to hang your movie on, but i was touched.

part 2 would have been perfect it we'd had gogo's sister doing her uzi revenge scene though.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
11:12 / 26.04.04
So it is TRUE...Kill Bill and Vol 2 neatly divide the WORLD into those with GOOD TASTE...and those DEVOID of such SENSIBILITIES.

I forsee that folk will be able to determine the potential of partners on dating sites simply by asking which of these films someone preferred:

a) The Good One
b) The Bad One

not sure about: reworking "she's not there" by the zombies.

also: there were only two men who seemed to be sex symbols; Esteban and Bill, and both were at least 20 years older than Kiddo. Her two teachers (Bill and Pai Mei) also fall into the "older man" category. Any thoughts on this? Is it that a highly-skilled killer who is a woman is a match only for an older man?


Maybe Tarantino is feeling his age. I actually thought Kiddo turned out to be a really good female character; I might even say a "classic" female cinema heroine in the making.
 
 
The Strobe
12:02 / 26.04.04
I agree with the comments on the burial sequence; after a while, it becomes a waiting game, seeing just how long we're going to stare at the black screen. Very effective.

I enjoyed it, but am somewhat disappointed by the whole thing. For four hours of film, that's not a lot of plot. Reminds me of my problem with manga - you can tear through manga books at a rate of knots because there's lots of images for very little happening.

Anyhow.

It feels a bit peculiar with its pacing. The comment above about style representing geography - that's a pretty good way of putting it. The only problem is there's so much globetrotting in the second picture, that all the changes of style are slightly too sudden - the first film had about one groove and stuck in it all the way through.

I loved Bill. Wordy, yes, but he's a wonderful character. Not sure why I feel this. He demonstrates an excellent understanding of his situation. He knows he's a bad person. Being a bad person doesn't mean you can't be a good father - and he's a lovely father, even if he does let his four year old watch Shogun Assassin. The end, when Bill is staring into Beatrix's eyes knowing he'll die when he walks away is quite striking, because she, like Bill, is essentially a bad person - an assassin, a murderer - but she too can be a good mother. The thing that makes this whole ending work is that, in that final chapter, Tarantino manages to show that whilst Bill and Beatrix clearly have a deep-rooted love for each other, neither of them would bat an eyelid at killing the other. If Beatrix let her guard down, Bill would have killed her. Simple as that. He doesn't really want to, but he needs to.

That's the big thing coming out of the film for me - nature is rooted in us, and whilst we can all act counter to that nature, we can never escape it. Pessimistic, but it also means that Tarantino can be quite sentimental and show the joy of sentimental things. I love the scene where BB 'shoots' Beatrix; as a whole introduction to the newly-reunited family unit, it's great.

Interesting aside:

the reviewer from The Independent (in a dorky, irrelevant review) mentioned that she hadn't seen the first film, and she watched the second film first, and then saw the first on DVD for backstory. She explained that she preferred it this way around.

I can kind of see her point. To me, the second film is the story of Kill Bill - the Bride taking her revenge, how it happens. The first film is the legend - how the Bride gets her sword, the fight with the Crazy 88 which Bill rightly explains didn't involve 88 guys. It's mythical exaggeration. In the legend, Bill is absent; a goal, a MacGuffin. In the story, he's vital. When you see the story before the legend, you understand why the legend is so overblown, so exaggerated - huge swordfights, people surviving bullets to the brain and comas, the origin of O-Ren. Bill has to match up to the legend, and when we meet him, I think he does. Also: the story's what you'll watch once; it's the legend that will be repeated, savoured again and again.

The story is what the film's really about; Motherhood, human nature. The legend is a fun excuse for swords and violence. Seen like that, it all makes more sense. I just find the gap between the two jarring. When the credits roll at the end of Vol. 2, and you get a bit of the House of Blue Leaves fight... it made me want to see the whole thing again. I really think Vol.2 needed another, moderately large action sequence. Just one. For consistency.

Hmn. Not explaining self very well, but have been umming and ahhing since I saw it. I enjoyed it, it's pretty good, but there are all these gaps and niggles that I'm trying to explain.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
12:59 / 26.04.04
the reviewer from The Independent (in a dorky, irrelevant review) mentioned that she hadn't seen the first film, and she watched the second film first, and then saw the first on DVD for backstory. She explained that she preferred it this way around.


You would think that if someone was getting paid by a national newspaper for reviewing films, they might have made the effort to see the 4th film from one of the most important contemporary directors when it came out.

Failing that, to watch it on DVD as soon as she knew she was slated to review the sequel.

"Preferred it this way," my yellow ass!
 
 
eddie thirteen
16:27 / 26.04.04
Yeah, I'm with you, Kovacs. Makes me wonder if screener copies of the newest films aren't sent directly to this woman's cave. What the hell.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
17:43 / 26.04.04
there are all these gaps and niggles that I'm trying to explain

I found it as entertaining as Vol I and the change of pace was refreshing after all the comic book splatter shock first time around. Don't know if your Gaps and niggles were the same as mine, Paleface, but this time I found I was just accepting the illogic, instead of being annoyed by it as I often was in Vol I.

The attempts at profundity and demarcating the boundaries of a sadomasochistic relationship were just daft but, as a game of in-jokes about genre, style, movies and myth, it interested and entertained me without beating me around the chops quite as much as Vol I did.

I thought he did interesting stuff with the bisected format. He took one simple plot and finessed it in very different ways within the chapters and, particularly, between the two halves.

It pushed most of the emotion buttons. Can't see that it had any poignancy though. That would have been an achievement, to make me well up at some point after conflating other emotions.
 
 
Quimper
20:20 / 27.04.04
How he plays with the idea of alter egos amazed me. *That's why they bleeped her name out in the first one.* Two movies. Two alter egos. Two methods. In the first one, she was The Bride, her superhero persona/secret identity. The first one ends with The Bride ending her secret ambushing of her enemies as she tells Sophie, "tell them I'm coming." Thus ends the need for her secret identity. She's free to be (insert her full name here) in the second movie. Her yellow superhero costume is off. Her flashy "Batmobile" is gone.

It's a variation on Bill's Superman/Batman/Spider-Man speech at the end, which *is* relevant and is a running theme throughout both fims. Alter egos are everywhere.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
12:02 / 28.04.04
TyCho Androgyny: "I thought it was drab. Dull. Insipid. I got bored. I kicked the seat in front of me. I think Tarantino was directing well and writing disastrously. I thought the script was flat. I think he just cut the movie down the middle. I can't understand why you'd have a zingy first half which sufffered from a lack of story and a wordy second half which desperately needed leavening. I thought much of the movie was pointless. I'm stunned by the idea that he felt unable to make one movie out of that.

In all, a raspberry."


Got to agree. Volume One was a near-masterpiece, in terms of what it was trying to accomplish. Volume Two - eh. No great shakes. We're supposed to give a shit about the Bride in Vol Two when she was never given any personality in Vol One? She was an archetype - nemesis, if you like. And we're supposed to give a shit about Bill when he's been set up in Vol One as the unmitigated bastard of all time? How does that work?!

There's so little tension in this film, either dramatic tension or narrative tension. Just a soggy mess with the by now incredibly predictable non-linear structure Tarantino's been using in every movie. The title of the movie is a spoiler, and so is the entire raison d'etre - it's a revenge thriller, everyone knows what's going to happen. When Bill mentions the fancy punch that Pai Mei didn't teach him, you know Kiddo's going to off him with it two hours later. When we leave Kiddo in her grave and get the Pai Mei flashback, we know that she's going to use the punch she never perfected to escape. It's as formulaic and predictable as the fucking Karate Kid. And I don't care whether it's supposed to be, before you mention it. That just means it's supposed to be rubbish.

The fight scene between Elle And Beatrix? Looks fantastic, really enjoyed it - but how is Elle fighting with both sides of her body when she has one eye? Just a tiny flaw (didn't spoil what, for me, was the best part of the film), but it's one I thought Tarantino would have picked up on, being so much more of a pedantic film/fight fanboy than me...

It's all very well filmed and written, as far as it goes, but that's it. There's no point to it, and, like many fanboys, Tarantino assumes that just because he loves something, everyone else should too. I do not care that the Bride/Kiddo lost and regained her daughter. It matters not to me, apart from that it skews what little dramatic pacing the movie has. I do not care that Bill felt betrayed and shit. And I think telling us that everything that's happened stems from the fact that Bill thought he'd been dumped on his ass is cheesy, bathetic and insulting.

The film ain't dire, but I loved Vol One, and I expected a lot more than this kind of warmed over, aimless, poorly thought-out movie. Was very disappointed. And bored! Who thought I'd get bored! Weird...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:51 / 29.04.04
I loved it. It was wonderfully silly.

And Pai Mei (sp?) was wicked in an "evil Yoda dude" sort of way. I could have watched two whole movies of him just flicking his beard and hitting people on the head.

I think the splitting thing was a very good idea... if anyone's seen Wenders' "Until The End Of The World", you'll know what I mean (even if you disagree) when I say that an abrupt and complete change of pace halfway through a long movie can totally fuck up the viewing experience.

Having read many reviews before watching, I was expecting Carradine's verbosity to grate... not at all. I thought he was a brilliant character.

Also a nice touch was using the dubbed intro to "Shogun Assassin" (rather than "Lone Wolf and Cub", which I imagine QT probably prefers) which is also the intro to Genius' Liquid Swords album in, in a movie with music by the RZA.

And Daryl Hannah pretty much reprising Pris' death scene from Blade Runner.

I adored it. But then I love Leone westerns. (I was only mildly disappointed by him not having a tribute to the scene in For A Few Dollars More when Eastwood and Van Cleef are shooting each other's hats... I really would have thought that would have floated young Quentin's boat...)

Re: the Superman art thing- yeah, my initial thought was "but it's had tons of artists". I think we can assume QT knows this. BUT... there's no indication that Bill's supposed to be any kind of authority on comics, or even that he's read them since he was a kid. So yeah, I think my initial outrage during that monologue was just my inner geek showing through.
 
  

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