BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


Troy

 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:46 / 21.05.04
Yes, it's always baffling when the Lesser Educated haven't even heard of the incredibly old, classic tale of doomed love etc etc that all of the Greater Educated have known off-by-heart since before they were born. How can we suffer them to live?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:54 / 21.05.04
Hooom. He's got a point, you know. I guess my problem is that the Troy story is a very complex and multi-levelled thing, and (puts on snob hat) there *is* something a bit bleeworthy not so much about boiling it down to a way to part people from money in order to match and then exceed the costs of the production, but in pretending that this is the result of some kind of love affair with the original... which is the fault of the marketeers and to an extent the creators rather than the audience.
 
 
Char Aina
16:22 / 21.05.04
its not about knowing it off by heart, though, is it?
i mean, i hear you, but the fact that 'trojan horse' viruses are abundant, and that the expression is used to refer to other situations where something is not what it seems...

i dunno.
there are clues, is all.

also, i was not educated in the classics until i sought it out. i asked mum and dad to buy a book because tyr, the one handed friend of thor, looked fucking cool on the cover. the back cover had a picture of some spartans marching in their red cloaks, and the two images sold me. even poor people can read, you know.
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
07:43 / 24.05.04
I (I am a she, btw) wasn't so much trying to fill the snob hat with the ever-expanding circumference of my noggin, but to poke fun at something I thought quite preposterous. I have known about the trojan horse story since I was eight years old (I remember the house I was living in when my mom told me the story after seeing something related on TV), and I just can't imagine not knowing the outcome. I must admit I haven't even read the original. I think Haus brings up a rather ingenious point about selling a film on the pretext of its universalness and classicism, and then relegating it to the conventions of Hollywood, so I will thank him for the defense.

Granted, this might be the equivalent of me going up to my Jewish friends and saying "the fish and the loaves... he feeds a lotta people with 'em... come on! Don't pretend you don't remember!" But I still believe, in my lovely snobbish way, that people should learn a thing or two before they go to bed at night. My apologies to the uninformed; may they be fruitful and multiply, and buy many tickets to the blockbuster version of The Odyssey that I plan to write.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:39 / 24.05.04
But I still believe, in my lovely snobbish way, that people should learn a thing or two before they go to bed at night...

Presumably nothing you don't already know, though... I mean, how could you feel superior to them, otherwise?

Ah, never mind, I'm probably being uncharitable. It just strikes me more and more that the only acceptable form of prejudice on Barbelith is against the those considered to be less intelligent, or (relatively) uneducated/uninformed. It grates. Never mind, ignore me. Just Jack (jazzhands! Will & Grace style!) being grouchy and old again.
 
 
Char Aina
14:36 / 24.05.04
Just Jack being grouchy and old again.

its not your fault, man.
yer stoopid.

[WINKy-WINKy]
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:15 / 24.05.04
Hmmmm... I think "grouchy and old" is romanticising it. You're being rude...let's go back to the outside of each other's heads and talk about the film, eh?

I think we can confidently say that there are many reasons why somebody might not have heard about the story of the Trojan Horse. They may be from a culture that places less weight on the Classical tradition, they may not have encountered it. However, it is not unreasonable to be surprised by something that, as toksik points out, has been immortalised in hacker lingo as a *successful* stratagem for getting what one wants to get through defences before unloading its payload on the other sid of the (fire)wall... for example, it's not known as an "Evnissien's cauldron", or similar.


Annnnyway - that makes for quite an interesting squeezy squeezy thing. As I said, there is no "original" per se here, just a collection of stories. So, some people will, as Wembley is my witness, have no accurate knowledge of the story, others will have memories and views of other representations, others will have read secondary sources (compendiums of stories, Tony Robinson etc), others will have read some or all fo the source texts, some will have read some or all of the source texts in the original... rather delightfully, there is a point where the headroom just gets chopped of - for example, the cyclic epics have not survived; all we know about them is from summaries or references. So Troy the movie is another layer of accretion. So, whether it is true to the original is a slippery and Protean question - what we maybe can ask is is it as good a representation of those bits of the original sources that we know and love as we could hope for, bearing in mind that it is in a very different medium...
 
 
passer
18:05 / 24.05.04
I'm eagerly counting the hours until I load my budding classicists on a bus for an academically dubious, but fun class trip. However, I expect to be disappointed, but not in any righteous "oh, I'm an intellectual snob" way, but closer to my righteous "but that's not the way the story goes, you bastards" kind of way I, and I think many other people here on Barbelith, more often reserve for movie versions of our favorite books, comic and otherwise.
 
 
passer
00:33 / 26.05.04
Well, at least I managed to get a bus full of students talking about classics...

As a period piece Hollywood blockbuster, this movie was disappointing. It tries far too hard to be serious and ends up ringing false. The speeches are overwrought, but by far the worst offense is the numerous long pan, "can't you see the torture inside" shots. However, I did enjoy the battle scenes, particularly when the Trojans fight in a phalanx.

Now I am putting on my snob hat:
I want my right foot to have an intimate conversation with the set designer and costumer. I'm sure they both failed whatever intro art history course they might have taken.

And port of Sparta? City on the cliffs? Wha?
~snob hat off~

I actually enjoyed the story as a movie inspired by the Iliad, with a few choice steals. Achilles does call Agamemnon a sack of wine, which was enjoyable. I thought the screenwriter did a good job of culling a modern story sans gods from selections of the Iliad.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:29 / 01.06.04
You've got me there, Haus. I was being wude. Absolutely. Can't put anything past you... especially given that you saw through my cunning ruse of 'admitting it just beforehand and telling everyone to ignore me'. How could I have thought that'd work?

I have to admit though, I felt sure you'd miss it completely - I thought the Haus Of Ill Repute had just left on that much needed vacation to Selfawaria. Guess you decided to postpone it eh, sparky?

Anyway. A peace-offering. This is, I think, the funniest of Cleo's offerings to date... "In conclusion: cousin."
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:44 / 01.06.04
You've got me there, Haus. I was being wude. Absolutely. Can't put anything past you... especially given that you saw through my cunning ruse of 'admitting it just beforehand and telling everyone to ignore me'. How could I have thought that'd work?


As I believe I mentioned, romanticising your rudeness as some sort of endearingly crusty character flaw rather than simple impoliteness is no exc... hang on.

Oh, bugger.

If events are as described in that genius recap, then any resemblance between this film and the Iliad seems largely coincidental, btw.
 
 
Jub
12:20 / 01.06.04
They are indeed - it could have been any story really, and still been a big deal - eg, they could've set it around the Roman seige of Carthage, and still got Brad Fitt et al involved.

Jack - thanks for taking the time to read my link on the 1st page of this thread.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
21:02 / 07.06.04
No problem. Thanks for taking the time to kiss my ass.
 
 
Jub
04:33 / 08.06.04
Pardon?
 
 
Mourne Kransky
08:58 / 08.06.04
I left half way through. Haven't left half through a shit film since ... well, never, that I can recall.

What a waste of some talented actors and Brad Pitt too. What a waste of a glorious, primal story, packed with archetype.

There must be some good points about a film with half naked Eric, Orlando and Brad throughout. *scratches head* Nope, none.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
20:14 / 26.04.05
But Trevor Eve man, it's got Trevor Eve in it too!

Watched it at the weekend. It would have been a good film if they hadn't focused on the pouting intensity of Achilles. You cannot do an interesting film if your central character is going to sulk all the way through. Sulking sublimates emotion and leads to tedium. They should have made it more equal and about everyone. As it is Achilles doesn't want to go, wants to go so he'll become famous, though why this should matter to him is not established, then, once he's arrived outside Troy, seems to think that his fame is assured and refuses to do anything else, sitting out the first major battle and then deciding to go home early, despite the fact that he came there because he supposedly wanted to get the fame and glory. They had no idea where they were going with this film.
 
 
lekvar
21:51 / 26.04.05
You cannot do an interesting film if your central character is going to sulk all the way through.
My recollection of is hazy, but it seems to me that that was about half of the Iliad, Achilles moping about because he wanted an apology and/or Briseas from Agamemnon.

Despite the fact that this movie was dragged backwards, kicking and screaming, out of the depths of Hollywood, I felt the people responsible did the best job they could. I was irritated when I heard that the Gods would make no appearance, but their absence was crafted well. There were other details that the fatbeard in me lamented, but I was shocked at how much "Troy" didn't suck. Maybe we'll all get lucky and someone will make the 6-hour film that the Iliad deserves, but I doubt it.
 
 
lekvar
21:56 / 26.04.05
ODYSSEUS: Lookin' good there, kid. What is he, your--

ACHILLES: Cousin. He's my cousin. Cousin. Totally my cousin. In conclusion: Cousin.


I thought this synopsis was great.
 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
  
Add Your Reply