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Troy

 
  

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Benny the Ball
19:26 / 14.04.04
Just seen a trailer for Troy (the one with acting rather than boats 'n' action). Must say it didn't light my fire, in fact it has put me off of the film all together. Is Petterson living off of Das Boot glory? Is it all pretty boys in the desert? Will it be another disapointment of shallow characterisation like Gladiator?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:42 / 15.04.04
My general feeling is that it will be the empty spectacle of Gladiator. ALthough I actually found the trailer fairly impressive (having said that, I also liked the Gladiator trailer, but thought that with the exception of the opening scene the movie blew goats).

Also, much as I like Brad Pitt as an actor, he does have a habit of appearing in shit films. (Not exclusively, but c'mon, he doesn't seem to have quite the quality control-sensitive agent someone like Depp does).

I'll go and see it... I love the story anyway, and am keen to see how they do it. Hopefully I'll be pleasantly surprised.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
15:40 / 17.04.04
How can you be dissing Tron?
 
 
Sunny
16:46 / 17.04.04
Tron? did someone say Tron?
 
 
Sunny
16:47 / 17.04.04
well like, isn't it directed by Darren Arronofsky? or am I completely off?
 
 
Mazarine
19:26 / 17.04.04
While I'm excited for the movie, I have my doubts about it being true to any sort of classical mentality. When I saw one of the trailers, when they were slowly zooming out on all the ships, I got little chills. So I may just go see it for the boats.

Poor Orlando Bloom. He's never going to get to be in a movie set after 1900.
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:13 / 15.05.04
I was thinking the same thing about Orlando... he'll be cast for his good looks with either a Bow or sword...

HECTOR was great... eric banna did a surperb job.

Brian Cox was a splendid AGAMEMNON

and ODESSIUS was also enjoyable...

While watching it occured to me who much I had forgotten about the tale... I was in 7th grade when i read it. Upon rereferencing it after the film ended I thought it was a decent take. Of course there was the Dubious "Cousin" Patracleas....

heavy handed at times 4 sure... but hey I liked HULK as well!!!
 
 
Tamayyurt
20:34 / 15.05.04
I actually thought the movies was pretty blah. All the epic stuff left me pretty cold. But I have to say that Hector was incredible and the Achilles/Hector fight was awesome. Other than that it was... okay.
 
 
Nobody's girl
03:57 / 16.05.04
Just thought I ought to put in a word for Discordians in this thread.
Obviously the lack of Eris in this film is scandalous. Thankfully, one incensed Discordian has made flyers to hand out at the screenings, you can find them here.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
07:48 / 16.05.04
I hear the whole gayness aspect has been very played down- how does that work?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
07:50 / 16.05.04
Oh, and cheers for that link, N's G...

Hail Eris!
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:22 / 16.05.04
I'd be happier with that flyer if they didn't manage to spell Odyssey and Iliad wrongly in the first cocking sentence...

However, critical opinion seems to be that removing the influence of the gods (although, as one reviewer pointed out, that's *more* white-haired English actors if you do) has left a much duller tale. Also making Patroclus younger than Achilles seems a bit shit and buddy movie. Is it true that in order to downplay any hint of homoeroticism, they have made Bradchilles' reaction to Patroclus' death appear entirely disproportionate to their previous relationship?
 
 
Nobody's girl
15:35 / 16.05.04
The person who made the flyer does not use English as a first language. That may account for some spelling errors.
 
 
Nobody's girl
15:38 / 16.05.04
You pedant
 
 
■
19:47 / 16.05.04
Sorry, someone told me today that Achilles has a girlfriend in the film. Wha? Who? Huh?
"I am Achiiles-hood. Come maid Helen we shall kiss with tongues."
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:18 / 16.05.04
Well, Briseis presumably. He also impregnates a girl while hidden from the war, although I suspect they have skipped dressing Brad Pitt up as a girl, and fell in love with Polyxena, although that was not exactly consummated (unless you count her being sacrificed on his altar)...

The person who made the flyer does not use English as a first language.

Unlike Homer, who did. Ahem.
 
 
Triplets
23:54 / 16.05.04
Hang on, Achilles is gay in the original?

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
01:07 / 17.05.04
Well now, *there's* a question.

The short answer is, there is no original. "Troy" covers a period from the rape of Helen ("rape" in the sense of "grabbing") to the night before the fall fo Troy, which is a *long* time, and the events of which are depicted in a large number of works, primarily the Iliad and the cyclic epics, but also a sizeable number of tragedies, other epics, and then later on various Latin dramas and epics, including the Metamorphoses. So, there is no original for Achilles to be gay in.

The next problem is that Achilles would not understand the term "gay" as you are using it. He is certainly described as being attracted to, having sex with and at times claiming to wish to marry women; in the Iliad he and Patroclus retire to bed with a woman each, IIRC. However, it doesn't take a weatherman to read something into his relationship with Patroclus - most obviously, from the story that their ashes were according to some mingled together after Achilles' death. There is also a legend that he was sexaully attracted to Troilus, one of Priam's sons. Then there's that whole cross-dressing episode.

So, wipe away that inexplicable sad face, chummy. The answer to your question is "no", even if not for the reasons you might have been expecting.
 
 
Jub
12:16 / 17.05.04
Patroclus and Achilles are cousins man. Of course he's going to be upset. Achilles wouldn't have been that upset if he was just his friend! There was nothing ahem, untoward about their relationship at all. Cousins. Got that? Now there's a buddy relationship we can all understand.

To be fair, I can understand why they didn't include the Gods as beardy old English men and/or James Earl Jones/Morgan Freeman types interacting with the soldiers would have been incredibly confusing in 2.5 hours of film. That's no excuse, of course, for shortening the 10 year seige to a matter of 3 weeks!

Generally I thought it was okay. The battle scenes were fantastic, as was the cast. I just couldn't help but think the filmakers were making a plot based on the Iliad to fit their ideas of an epic film, to follow the success of braveheart/gladiator and the LOTR trilogy. Lacklustre.
 
 
Triplets
21:26 / 17.05.04
Oh, cool, cousins... that makes everything wholesome!
 
 
nedrichards is confused
22:40 / 17.05.04
Gods! Gods! Everyone wants gods, especially movie stars as gods. I'll take Meg Ryan as Athena flirting outrageously with Odysseus for 5 points of cinematic gold please Bob.
 
 
Char Aina
05:28 / 20.05.04
wait.., they took out the gods?
well, that's gonna suck.
is it a jesus thing, d'you reckon?

and how without olympus will they explain achilles' invulnerability? is he just going to be rilly rilly, like, buff, and, like, rilly rilly fast? all bullet dodging and stuff? like, dodging those bullets bows fire? the long ones?

fuck.
i was totally looking forward to this, using sentences like "man, troy looks awesome" and "i grew up on greek and norse legends, i cant wait to see this on a big screen!" or even the occasional "we should all go see troy".
now i am going to go back to bed and cry;
cry like some nega-tantalus, shedding endless unwanted tears, drip after tear after drip.

if only i was thirsty.

(and drank saline solution)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
06:37 / 20.05.04
and how without olympus will they explain achilles' invulnerability?

You know, I was wondering about whether they make Achilles nigh-invulnerable (when he's blasting)... they could explain it away as a gift of the Gods who are just not present - I mean, Thetis is kicking around so presumably there is some sort of recognition that the gods are kicking around, unless they have Achilles phone up his mum at opportune moments...

But anyway. Achilles. Invulnerable. The first and most obvious thing is that he *isn't* invulnerable in the Iliad - he's just very good at fighting, and as such doesn't get hit. However, there's a bit near the end where Asteropaeus cuts his shoulder. Which is more convincing and also, I'd imagine, nore entertaining. I mean, I guess people probably know how it ends anyway, but invulnerable Achilles mowing people down would get a bit tedious...

Oh! I know what I was going to ask. This goes from the start of the war to the horse, yeah? So Brad dies about three-quarters of the way through? Like Steven Segal in Executive Decision?
 
 
Char Aina
06:56 / 20.05.04
well, if brad should dies about seven years in, he might be alright. this seige's only going to be three or four weeks, i've heard.
perhaps afterwards he should spend some time off. somewhere nice. in the mountains, maybe.
 
 
Char Aina
07:07 / 20.05.04
so did the evolution from 'as if he were invulnerable' to 'he is invulnerable' happen after the iliad, or was it a facet of the tale homer disbelieved?

i ask, as i can quite vividly remember the backstory, with his mother bathing hi in the styxx.
was that added by fanfic writers later?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
07:41 / 20.05.04
so did the evolution from 'as if he were invulnerable' to 'he is invulnerable' happen after the iliad, or was it a facet of the tale homer disbelieved?

Good question. I think it's probably most helpful to think of the legend as a whole different series of legends, happening at different times and in different geographies, but overlapping. So, there probably isn't a "core" version that Homer (whatever we mean by Homer) could agree or disagree with, but rather a jumble of local interpretations. Having said which, Homer's tendency in the Iliad (and I realise that this is a bloody odd thing to say while simultaneously complaining that the Gods' involvement is left out in the movie) is to make his mortals mortal - people don't get superpowers as a rule, which means that when mortals do inhuman things (like when Achilles finds himself fighting a river), or mysterious things happen without the gods being involved (like Achilles' horse speaking for the first and only time) it is thrown into very sharp relief. Partly, IMHO, this is about intertext - I have a theory about Helen which is probably a bit offtopic.

So, instead of the physical superpower of unbreakable skin, Achilles gets a sort of metaphysical invulnerability, in which he, alone of mortals, gets to choose his fate (or have foreknowledge of it - the way this is referred to changes in different places in the text); he gets the option of a guaranteed long life if he doesn't go to war, and a guaranteed early death if he does.

Incidentally, invulnerability, or more specifically a resistance to weapons, is a pretty common theme in the Troy story. Just off the top of my head, Ajax Telemonius is sometimes described as invulnerable, having either to hang himself or stab himself in the armpit to commit suicide. Cycnus (the first warrior Achilles fights on the beach of Troy when the boats land) is invulnerable to sword blows (ends up strangled with his helmet straps, I think. Caeneus (mate of Nestor' from an earlier legendary cycle) is invulnerable, but ends up smothered by centaurs and turns into a bird (don't even ask)... then there's Siegfried, of course. Although clearly not Roy.

Back on the movie, does it actually represent the siege as that short? The Iliad does telescopy things with the narrative, where, for example, you get scenes that clearly come from the beginning of the war happening in the early chapters of the book, bt it is essentially a story of what happens over the course of three days... the pacing of the film is something that interests me, because I don't think you can do quite the same thing...
 
 
Jub
08:16 / 20.05.04
***SPOILERS*** obviously.

The only fast forwarding they tell you they're doing is the 12 days fro Hectors funeral rites. The rest appears to be ongoing - ie day after day.

The beach and Temple are captured by Achilles and crew straight away on the first day. Achilles lets Hector off.

The next day the Greeks have a pop at Troy itself but the mighty Trojan army repulses them (Achilles not fighting in this one).

The next night the Trojans decide to retaliate, and attack the beach. This is when Hector mistakenly kills Patroclus. Uh oh.

The day after Achilles goes to the city walls and shouts HECTOR! until he comes down. That night, Priam visits.

"12 days later" while the Trojans mourn, and the Greeks build a horse.

The Trojans come out after the funeral to find the Greeks gone but the horse there. That night - it's all over.

Bout 3 weeks all in. Shock and awe huh?
 
 
Jub
08:20 / 20.05.04
...and what's this off topic Helen theory? I'm intrigued.
 
 
miss wonderstarr
13:53 / 20.05.04
and how without olympus will they explain achilles' invulnerability? is he just going to be rilly rilly, like, buff, and, like, rilly rilly fast? all bullet dodging and stuff? like, dodging those bullets bows fire? the long ones?


This is exactly what happens. So it doesn't make any sense that he's suddenly agonised and weakened by an arrow in the heel.
 
 
Mr Tricks
16:18 / 20.05.04
I dunno... I saw it with people who never knew the myth & it seemed to make sence to them. He was hit in the heel while he was focused on something(one) other than war/combat. Since that was a first, it was the first time he had actualy felt any real pain. Throughout the film it's made clear that he has NO scars, even Hector had scars, so it stood to (some) reason that being struck in the anckle was hurt BIG-TIME and from there the handful of arrows shot into his gut would eventually kill him.

I agree that the whole war seemed over in a few weeks...
 
 
miss wonderstarr
21:46 / 20.05.04
I don't see how, in "real terms", being hit with an arrow when you were romancing someone would hurt more than being hit with an arrow when you were expecting it in combat.

Considering that the other arrows hit him in the gut through leather armour and he pulled them out easily enough, I didn't feel that his death from four or five hits (fired by a total puss) seemed "realistic". Though I can accept that it incorporated the Achilles heel myth without making it baffling or fantastical.
 
 
RaiynCloud9
02:16 / 21.05.04
Well, I found this movie to be one of my favorites in terms of Historical/War. Not only was there gripping dialogue at least in Paris and Priams cases, and the fight choreography was the best I've seen in one of these genres of movies. Period. Also of note, the cinematography was great in at least one scene I noted. It does an extreme zoom out after Achilles death. It was absolutely wonderful...you see a dark and eerily peaceful temple (Where Achille's death occurs) and on the other side a fiery and particularly brutal sacking of the city of Troy. This makes an beautifully well-crafted contrast of Achilles life as a continuous bloody war, chaotic and unrelenting, and his death as a relief on his soul, now untainted by war. This doesn't relate much to the topic, but I think it neccessary to put all those "DUDE HOLLYWOOD SUX" people who couldn't possibly merit a movie for actually being good when it simply is, in their places. I think the taking out of the divine intervention was to not convolute the 2 and half hours of plot...I did disagree with the fact that they make Paris seem like he had always been a Prince of Troy, skipping the whole curse part...but it helped the plot to keep flowing. Although they didn't stick true to the (common belief of)chronological order of events, neither has most of the adapters of the plot throughout history. I gave this movie a 8.5/10 and would see it again. Honestly, instead of being critical of how dull you found the (5000 things this movie has that you could never replicate or hope to dream up) look at the merit of the 3D design group that did a commendable job, the writer who wrote some pretty moving dialogue (Most noteably the Paris/Helen interactions and King Priam's plee), and some absolutely great choreography in the fight scenes. Well, there's my 2 cents. ~Sharky
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
05:31 / 21.05.04
I've read from more than one person on another message board that large numbers of audience members actually gave out gasps of surprise when the Greeks come a-chargin' outta that horse. Apparently the phrase "I thought the Trojans were supposed to win" even escaped a few lips.

Anyone experience this? I'm now in search of the worst-educated audience so I can be entertained while watching the film, if I must go and see it.
 
 
Jub
10:10 / 21.05.04
Troy in 15 minutes. Quite funny.
 
 
adamswish
10:54 / 21.05.04
I was wondering if they would be truthful to the fate of Achilles considering who they got playing him.

Good to see they are (more or less).

And the reviews I've seen/heard all say the same thing: Peter O'Toole is magnificent in his scenes and steals the movie
 
  

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