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Hedonism understands

 
 
astrojax69
04:55 / 14.04.04
my philosophy is not so much 'if it feels good, do it', rather the subtle variation: 'if it doesn't feel good, don't do it'.

i learnt to cook well as a lad and did so pretty unconsciously. having analysed it, i strongly suspect i was following an instinct to take pleasure in delicious food as often as possible, so if i could cook it i could eat it.

this goes for much of my life's choices: i choose for pleasure. rekkun it's all about living the experience of life being as good [relative to your own tastes] as you can - this informs my moral aesthetic, too.

there are threads on barbelith about religion, should we have it, does god suck/exist/really think we'll fall for that? or about post-modernist perspectives of inflated ids and egos... but no-one seems to have sewn the thread of pleasure - yet we all wanna indulge. don't we?

go on, get out there!

what i wanna know is, why don't we force the UN to adopt hedonism as it's organisational philosophy and make all member states throw their arms and their greivances into the marianas trench and just get along? ... and then come back to my place for slow-cooked lamb and cous cous... : )
 
 
Tom Coates
09:38 / 14.04.04
Hedonism is a profoundly tricky 'philosophy', for the main reason that the pleasurable things often have consequences. The philosophy that's most often associated with the pursuit of pleasure is Epicureanism, named after the Ancient Greek Philosopher Epicurus. His philosophy was directly based upon the maximisation of pleasure, but the conclusions he came to as a result of this philosophy were radically different from the simple 'indulge yourself' angle you see to be advocating. Basically eating rich foods might be considered pleasurable, but indigestion, obesity, constipation and the like are very much not pleasurable. So then the question becomes how to maximise pleasure - do you do it by eating whatever you want or do you do it by eating responsibly? Epicurus thought the hedonist would eat limited amounts of plain and simple foods. Similarly - indulging in sex with a large number of partners is fun, but if the consequence is sexually transmitted diseases or a lack of stable relationships, then is it actually more pleasurable in the long-term? And then there's our relationship with other people - exploiting people for personal gain might be considered living life to the full, but if they respond in kind as a result, then have you really gained pleasure?

Here's a chunk from a really useful introduction to Epicurus (link) that you might find useful:

We don't need caviar, champagne, palaces, or bodyguards, which are expensive and difficult to acquire and keep. People who want more than they need are making a fundamental mistake, a mistake that reduces their chances of being satisfied and causes needless anxiety. While our bodies need food, water, shelter, and safety, all that our souls need is to be confident that our bodies will get what they need. If my body is contented and my soul is confident, then I will be cheerful, and being cheerful is the key to being happy. As long as we are cheerful it takes very little to keep us happy, but without cheerfulness we cannot really enjoy even the so-called 'pleasures' of life. Being cheerful is a state which is full of pleasure—indeed Epicurus calls it 'the limit of pleasure'—and it is a normal state, but if we suffer from anxiety we need to train ourselves to attain and maintain it. The discipline of Epicurean philosophy enables its followers to recognize how little they actually need, to enjoy possessing it, and to enjoy the confidence that they will continue to possess it. On the other hand, there is no reason not to enjoy occasional luxuries, if they happen to be easily available. There is nothing wrong with luxury in itself, but any dependence on luxuries is harmful to our happiness, as is every desire for unnecessary things.

Epicureanism is interesting for a whole range of reasons, and one of which is that it has certain resonances with the evolutionary development of altruism. It's like an enormous game of the Prisoner's dilemma - we actually all have a better quality of life if we cooperate with one another rather than trying to exploit one another. We all have reproductive advantages if we work well with each other rather than only caring about our own short-term pleasures. That's why we have evolved societies, that's why we care about our families, it's why the excessive pursuit of pleasure (or power, which Freud said is normally about securing certain forms of pleasure as well) is generally considered to be a sign of a 'bad' person.

So I guess the questions we are left with are: How do we really maximise pleasure? Is the pursuit of short-term pleasure a panacea to any of the world's problems? Is there any space for ideas like honour, responsibility and service in a hedonist or Epicurean philosophy?
 
 
charrellz
13:49 / 14.04.04
I see one small problem off the bat. You're hypothetical position is 'don't do anything you don't like.' What about work. Going to work sucks, but so does starving on the street. A system could be set up in which some enjoy luxury and others do all the grunt work, but that isn't very democratic and raises issues of morality/politics/philosophy. Basically what I'm saying is: sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. And work sucks.
 
 
cusm
16:35 / 14.04.04
A long time ago a friend of mine challenged me that all actions we take are ultimately done because we want to do them, because the results bring us greater happiness. I've worked this over and over over the years, and there is a very primal truth to it, I believe. We are ultimately hedonistic creatures. Every choice is choice for the greater pleasure, even in cases where what we perceive of as pleasure might be seen as pain by another. Definitions of pleasure are entirely relative, exampled most evidently by masocism or self destructive tendencies. For some, even death of the self is a choice to greater pleasure, be it from escaping a painful stimulus or in simply enjoying the experience of the destruction itself. Simialrly, choices to do unpleasant tasks such as work or obeying laws are rooted in a choice to avoid the less pleasent alternative of poverty or punishments. It may be that we fear the lash, but it may also be seen that we enjoy the work more than the punishment of not doing it.

I find it useful to recognize that we are inherently bent towards seeking the greater pleasure, in whatever form it comes. To what extent we consider additional factors such as Epicurus details in maximizing pleasure is a measure of wisdom and ability. It does not change our essencial goals.

The only useful application of this principle however, is in making choices based upon one's conscious assessment of a situation rather than a preset rule applied by another. To eat the pie, or not to eat the pie, under this philosophy is chosen based on a conscious consideration of the various pros and cons of the effects eating the pie will have. If the possible dangers are not considered relevent enough to outweigh the pleasures of the yummy goodness, eat the pie!

The counter to this idea is the question of our ability to make that decision. Universaly affecting cultural laws such as those forbidding the eating of pie are made because it is just safer, as one can not be trusted to be fully aware of all the possible ramifications that pie eating can have upon them. So, the choice in philosophy is based in one's level of confidence in their ability to make an informed decision about pies.

Really, its all about pie, isn't it?
 
 
Scanner Vainly
17:49 / 14.04.04
Check out this site on Wirehead Hedonism.

I'm not sure if I could handle having my state of consciousness altered so as to always be at a climax.
It's creepy.
 
 
astrojax69
02:41 / 16.04.04
i was deliberately pithy in my description of my philosophy and almost entirely silent on a description of my life - but as for your point, charellz, that work sucks: well, change jobs! it is possible to choose to engage in meaningful employment, pursuing ideals and desires, while acknowledging that 'working, therefore eating' is superior to 'not working, therefore starving'.

so of course, the longer term is a maximal consideration of one's tastes and desires - i don't recall saying i chose only for the moment... and i didn't express what 'pleasure' is for me...

anyway, it is fascinating, tom, you bring up altruism... i agree, i find philanthropy and altruism stimulating, richly rewarding and greatly pleasurable! the co-operation and comraderie engendered by sharing is what makes our cultural traditions so engaging.

think about it, most of the bits of festivals we like, and so endure, are the good bits like eating, sharing food, drink, music, creative expression (pick xmas, easter, rammadan, new year, halloween, anything - then pick different cultures [european, middle eastern, asian... whatever] and see how they enjoy festivals.) so i contend that we biologically express our communal instincts in precipitating pleasure as a tool to remember, and so commemorate, the important events... it was the only way before palm pilots!

pleasure is a great driver!

and so i am a careful passenger, who takes turns driving when someone else is sleepy, and i pay my share of fuel!

i am off over to cusm's for some pie.... : )
 
 
Z. deScathach
07:27 / 16.04.04
Hmmm, I would say that the real question is, "What are the sociological implications of what Astrojax69 is talking about?" I think that we are basically pleasure seeking creatures, or at least pain avoiding ones,(which brings up some thorny philosophical questions about duality and polarity that are being covered presently in another thread). Yes, work can suck, but if a person makes a decision to do the work that they enjoy, does that not increase productivity? When people are doing work that they hate, they don't tend to do a very good job. Then the argument arises, "Well, someone has to do those awful jobs....", but isn't "awful" really a relative perception. I've seen people truly enjoy jobs that I would think no one would like. Focusing more on what we WISH to do, what gives us pleasure would IMO create a greater level of efficiency. Things done with focus tend to be done better. True, there might be less total production in some areas, but is that necessarily a bad thing. In the states there are many people who are working for 80 hours a week for essentially the right to stay alive. Personally, living in the Land of Widgets, I could see us creating fewer of them. It is true that some short term pleasures can have long term negative consequences, but as was mentioned, a healthy moderation of those can still be traced to a desire for happiness. The bottomline is that happy people tend to be less asinine to each other, unless of course the individual has confused pleasure with the giving of pain, i.e., the sadist.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
21:36 / 17.04.04
The pursuit of sensory pleasure is on my mind a lot these days. I have discovered that studying lots of math for several hours makes me desperately need physical grounding—when I come down from all the abstract thinking, I feel horny and hungry. (Hungry's the wrong word—I feel desperate for taste quality, rather than being quantitatively hungry.) Since the former is only rarely available, I'm thinking I need an exercise program as a substitute, but that's more a bodily sensation than a pursuit of pleasure.

So, would it be useful in this discussion to distinguish between sensory pleasures, and more rarefied intellectual/spiritual ones? The satisfaction of liking your job and therefore avoiding starvation in a relatively painless way sounds pretty far from being 'hedonistic' to me.
 
 
Perfect Tommy
21:40 / 17.04.04
...And this is why we read the links before we post. "What's terrible is easy to endure," being part of the Epicurean four-part cure. "My job sucks" is pretty easy to endure (for anyone of the population who can read this, anyway).
 
 
astrojax69
02:09 / 27.04.04
as a materialist, perfect tommy, any perceived discrepancy between sensual pleasures and intellectual ones disappear for me.

the experience of living, however that is at any given moment, is what i contrive to be pleasurable - that is for me as much realised sexual fantasy and expression as it is slow roasted lamb shanks and vintage bordeaux, shara nelson's voice and mahler's symphonies or reading erudite arguments and beautiful prose... and many other things!

hedonism is, for me, the pursuit of paying attention to the life experience, ruminating on it as it suits, or immersing myself in it at other times, as that too suits. my contention is that if we all of us paid the same amount of attention to our lives as we live them we would cease engaging in destructive behaviour - that is destructive both to ourselves and to our environment.

i am prepared to hear from sadists and existentialists who derive little moral worth, it seems, from behaviour that satisfies an aesthetic of pleasure more broadly than the 'self'... we are, after all, just an aspect, a mode as spinoza would have, of the universe, indistinguishable at some level from everything else, thereby engaging a vested interest in everything else...
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
12:29 / 27.04.04
hedonism has tended to lead towards decadence, or maybe 'lead' is the wrong term, maybe where there is one the other is always close by.

So where do the rules lie in this hedonistic state? Assuming that the unpleasant jobs would be done by people who like doing it in their free time is different, someone who enjoys rolling around in their own filth might not necessarily want to work at a sewage farm, I don't have the fu to find it but I believe there are studies about a good work-life balance and the bigger difference between the two being important (after all, I'm a librarian, that doesn't mean I want to fuck in a bookshop. The stacks possibly, but that's a different fetish...)

And what do we do about those crazy murderers who really do just want to kill people to have a good time? Do we just hope that in a hedonistic society they might all decide they enjoy crochet instead?
 
 
TeN
22:56 / 30.04.04
I always think of it this way...
If I believed in Solipsism wholeheartedly, I'd be a Hedonist. But because I admit that I can never be entirely sure of the nature of reality, I'm a Humanist.

Confused?
Let me explain...

Solipsism, for those who don't know, is the belief that you are the sole inhabitant of the universe, and that you have created in your head a complex illusion which includes everything around you, including your own body. It takes Descartes, "cogito ergo sum" to the extreme, saying not only that the only thing one can be sure of is his own existence, but that because one can be sure nothing else, one can assume that nothing else exists. It sounds ludicrous, I know, but any reasonable philosopher (Descarte included) will tell you that although it may be foolish to believe wholeheartedly in it, it is a perfectly reasonable possibility.

Were I to believe in Solipsism, I would have no compassion toward anyone, because I would not believe them to exist. The only thing I would be concerned with was making myself happy. Hence I would be a Hedonist.

But if reality is not an illusion, it would be foolish to perpetuate the philosophy of Hedonism, because although people would theoretically bring happiness to themselves, they would cause suffering to others, and if everyone acted this way, the world would be filled with suffering.

Therefore, the best philosophy to adopt is one that attempts to create happiness for both yourself and those around you... Humanism.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
00:10 / 01.05.04
Hmm.. but what if you pull it back a bit? Is there a problem with creating a self-interested form of hedonism, which identifies not being shanked by irate people, whether you believe them to be constructs of your mind or not, as necessary to the maintenance of plaeasure, and thus places controls on the means by which the desire for pleasure is satisfied in the interests of perpetuating one's access to pleasure (via an absence of shanking)? This is a bit of a stretch from pure esse est percipi, but if one accepts the possibility of pain at the hands of the world one has created, why not also accept the possibility of death, and behave accordingly. Our solipsist hedonist, for example, might be loth to hurl hirself out of a window, having observed the possiblity of pain and thus also the possibility of incapacity and the resultant straitening of pleasure...
 
  
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