BARBELITH underground
 

Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
Barbelith is a new kind of community (find out more)...
You can login or register.


The fine line between challenging storytelling, and overly confusing storytelling

 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
 
Spatula Clarke
01:54 / 10.04.04
The gimmick is that the majority of the film is one girl's drug induced stupor.

No. No no no. Thread here.

No.
 
 
TroyJ15
14:18 / 10.04.04
Well, I was a fraction right. It was one of characters thoughts after overdosing for a portion of the film. Either way not my cup of tea.
 
 
m
06:29 / 11.04.04
Y'all should carry that Mulholland Drive stuff over to the Mulholland Drive thread, and duke it out over there.
 
 
The Natural Way
10:09 / 11.04.04
Uh, I wanted to.......
 
 
Haus of Mystery
14:21 / 11.04.04
FIGHT!
 
 
Spaniel
11:11 / 13.04.04
Well, I was a fraction right. It was one of characters thoughts after overdosing for a portion of the film. Either way not my cup of tea.

Okay, so I shouldn't be perpetuating this, but I just can't help myself.

Troy, whilst you are more than entitled to your opinion, I would suggest that you give the MD thread a proper read. Your analysis is, ostensibly, both lazy and inaccurate.
Here's the thing - you might get more from the movie if you attempt to engage with some of the v.insightful criticism hereabouts.

Good criticism can help inform a reading of a text.

I'll stop now.
 
 
--
11:40 / 13.04.04
"The Filth" was aces. It's only real problem was the supporting characters, who were, for the most part, VERY dull.
 
 
diz
13:11 / 13.04.04
A million times more human and relevant than Tarantino's fun (but essentially rather vacuous) post-modern gangster-fest.

Tarantino's movies are not "gangster-fests" but gangster-movie-fests. they're movies about movies from a guy who's obsessed with movies, not movies about gangsters from a guy who's obsessed with gangsters.

carry on.
 
 
Spaniel
13:14 / 13.04.04
He knows that. But there was some strong feeling re MD messing with his head.
 
 
The Natural Way
15:27 / 13.04.04
Indeed, Diz, indeed.

Tarantino's films are so self-consciously textual! He's Mr. Gimmick incarnate.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
16:48 / 13.04.04
Look over there! Jesus Christ is flashing his tits in the Movies forum! Meanwhile, back at the topic...
 
 
Haus of Mystery
17:12 / 13.04.04
You lied. I checked.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:45 / 16.04.04
To get this back on track...

Oxtail Pig: "I don't hold with all this "Grant didn't take the X Men anywhere" stuff. For a start, he actually PLAYED the evolution angle - something sorely neglected in the X Men of yesteryear, in favour of the racism stuff (which quite frankly was getting soooo tired). Not only that, but he turned the institute into a school for the first time ever; added a huge dose of wonder, otherness and horror to the idea of mutation; brought a sense of humour to the book and injected all the stale, old ideas - Sentinels, long lost relatives, Xavier's dream, The Phoenix...blah - with a huge dose of fun and imagination. And those he couldn't (Magneto), he offed.

There was a genuine attempt over the course of Morrison's run to reappraise and reimagine.

And I don't care about whether or not he played the science hard. That's just a question of taste."


First up, the X-men's history/continuity has never just been about racism - it's about all negativism in society, all prejudices and bigotry. The racism card has been heavily played by the makers of the recent movies, becasue it's the most resonant one in a wider context - but the X-kids were geeks, outcasts, and misfits of all different kinds. There are parallels with the Holocaust/anti-semitism, sexism/chauvinism, homophobia both active and passive, amongst others, all throughout the X-men's history.

The institute may not have been a school for a while, but that's not to say it's never been one - almost the entire of Claremont's run (which was a long one) showcased the entire life of the X-men, inside the school and out. The New Mutants were all students, and they had their own comics intrinsically tied in with Uncanny X-men continuity, and sharing the same writer. That comics ran for 100 issues. It's not recent, no - but it's a huge part of the comic's history.

The injection of fun, etc - that's a matter of taste. Personally, I found a lot of his 'ideas' to be hasty rehashes of other ideas, a lot of which had been used in X-men before. The secondary mutation thing? Yeah, that was a new one - and not a particularly well thought through or
well executed one, either. A lot of wasted potential in that. Same as his handling of Magneto - we get him 'reimagined' as a Bin Laden-style terrorist - a failed politico turned doomed drug addict and rather thick megalomaniac. Which ignores decades of continuity which had established him as the King Lear tragic king/fool archetype, forever, let down by his bloodthirsty associates - and ignores it for no good reason. Why not use someone like Mr Sinister, who'd work far better in the 'history-has-passed-me-by' fuck-up mould than Magneto? If Morrison can't use the guy, he has no obligation to use him - but to rewrite the entire character just because he has no place for him is a stupid fucking waste and smacks of Morrison's usual florid egotism.

Finally, you may say that the slender grasp of basic evolutionary and genetic theory is 'a matter of taste' - I tend to think it's 'a matter of laziness'. He's just extrapolating all his old theories and high-concept ideas about the evolution of Mind and World onto the genetic mutation template, and leaving them there without adequate explanation or research into how they might actually apply in the world of the X-men. It's typically cavalier, and smacks of his current attitude to all his work - "ah, the fans will lap it up, 'cause it sounds pretty Invisible, doesn't it?"

I'd say it was disappointing, but I haven't expected much from him in some time...
 
 
diz
13:06 / 16.04.04
The institute may not have been a school for a while, but that's not to say it's never been one - almost the entire of Claremont's run (which was a long one) showcased the entire life of the X-men, inside the school and out. The New Mutants were all students, and they had their own comics intrinsically tied in with Uncanny X-men continuity, and sharing the same writer. That comics ran for 100 issues. It's not recent, no - but it's a huge part of the comic's history.

that's not really the same thing. between the X-Men and the New Mutants, there were never really enough young mutants on hand to fill a decent-sized lecture hall. plus, the New Mutants were not really students - they fought villains and such about as often as anyone else, and only seemed to make token gestures in the direction of functioning like a school. there's a huge difference between the X-Men and the junior X-Men living in a mansion and occasionally paying lip service to the idea of being a school, and a place that's teeming with students who actually go to class and don't spend all their time running off to Asgard or whatever to fight supervillains.
 
 
The Natural Way
20:54 / 17.04.04
I couldn't agree more, Diz. Grant was the first to make the place a school. The New Mutants are a poor excuse. And that's where yr losing me, Jack. Yr point of view strikes me as too general, Jack. Grant's approach to mutation was new, at least to the X Men. Suddenly you have teachers laying eggs in front of the class and fly-girls with acid bile. The ideas ran from a girl who projects a sexy psychic body to compensate for the lack of her physical one, to illegal mutant organ farming, to a future where the whole man/mutant thing is rendered redundant by the extinction of the human genome.This stuff can't just be written off as a bunch of regurgitated Morri-themes. Nah, when you get down to the specifics, there's a lot of good stuff there.
 
 
The Natural Way
22:45 / 17.04.04
Although I do think it can start to look a bit contrived and "Look at me, Grant Morrison, being Mr. Big Ideas!".
 
 
The Phoenix IMX
00:18 / 18.04.04
Okay. I was just wondering if any of you guys can clear up some of Morrison's trails of agency in New X-Men. Sublime, Cassandra Nova and Magneto all have plans within plans within plans, some of which may or may not have to do with one another. Anyone have any thoughts on who is manipulating who? Sublime seems like the ultimate but how do Magneto and Cassandra fit in with one another and back into Dr. Sublime?
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:53 / 21.04.04
diz: "...between the X-Men and the New Mutants, there were never really enough young mutants on hand to fill a decent-sized lecture hall. plus, the New Mutants were not really students - they fought villains and such about as often as anyone else, and only seemed to make token gestures in the direction of functioning like a school. there's a huge difference between the X-Men and the junior X-Men living in a mansion and occasionally paying lip service to the idea of being a school, and a place that's teeming with students who actually go to class and don't spend all their time running off to Asgard or whatever to fight supervillains..."

Or starting riots, killing humans, selling drugs... While you could be flippant and say that these are all ordinary school extracurricular activities, there's actually precious little studying going on on most of Morrison's run. And 'teeming' is excessive. He created enough half-assed characters for three-quarters of a decent sized class, and left the rest for furniture. And I really mean 'half-assed'. A bigger bunch of underwritten school stereotypes I have never seen, and that includes in Smallville, Buffy and The fucking Breakfast Club. Oh, and how about alien invasions of the school, attacks by other random bastards, co-option by mutant terrorists... all shit that could have popped up anywhere in Claremont's run of New Mutants or X-men. And lots of learning being done, yessir.

And as for the mutation thing... no. Just no. Laying eggs? Someone provide me with an explanation as to how an ostensibly human looking girl with a few bug characteristics is capable of mating with a birdboy to produce offspring - because Morrison didn't even try. It's just... horrible, horrible and ultimately really (this word is so apt for this guy's writing recently) LAZY writing. How is the above pairing possible? This is not a rhetorical question. Within the narrative, this is a simple question of biology. If this is one of the premier mutant/mutation-study centres in the world, why is no one physically evaluating the kids to find out how far their mutations go in terms of living an ordinary life, etc? "OK Angel, you're a bug-girl. However, contraception is still important, because, HAVING DONE SOME BASIC TESTS, there's an 85% chance that, physically, you can still reproduce with the human species." What do they do, just sit the students down on their first day and tell them to turn to page five of the Special Kids Fantasy Faux-Science Textbook? Christ, even Scott Lobdell read up enough to graduate to the Special Kids Fantasy Pseudo-Science Textbook...

It's like he's looked up words like 'genome' and 'mutation' and 'genetics' in the Collins Abridged Dictionary and based a storyline and characters on the definitions. And it reads like hackwork.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:56 / 21.04.04
And, for the record, I didn't say he was just regurgitating his own work. No, as usual, there are shitloads of other people's ideas being vomited up as well. He's not fussy, he'll nick anything. He's a geezer. Don't put that (high-)concept down. He'll nick it.
 
 
Spaniel
13:22 / 21.04.04
Boboss and pals down the pub for a Thursday night comic chat.

Boboss: "How the fuck did Beak and Angel manage to breed? Why didn't Hank investigate? Morrison's such a lazy shit!"

Boboss is ejected from pub by pals.
 
 
eddie thirteen
17:45 / 21.04.04
Scientifically, I would surmise that Beak's "fuckstick" became swollen with blood as he grew aroused, possibly as he laid saucer-sized pigeon eyes on Angel's "titties." Angel, herself in a state of arousal (I am still trying to develop a hypothesis sufficient to explain this), became lubricious in her "coochie" region; whereupon....

I'm more interested in learning what blip in the human genome could allow a man to shoot laser beams out of his ferchrissakes *eyes,* myself. We're not exactly talking hard science fiction here, guys.
 
 
Char Aina
19:14 / 21.04.04
no, but there is a world being created, and it would help if it made sense in relation to itself.

like, duh.

mozza-son is a bit over excited by ideas, methinks. i canimagine that it all 'seems so ...significant!' when he is as high as a kite, but then so can murder she wrote.
 
 
eddie thirteen
23:35 / 21.04.04
Eh, I dunno, in this particular case, it kinda seems to me that if the Beast can get it on with non-mutant women, two mutants can certainly do it, even if they're physically kind of incompatible on a surface level. I don't think there's anything especially weird or inconsistent about that. Not really sure why this woman would lay eggs, but whatever. Of all the things to find fault with in NXM, this seems like more than reaching, to me.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:43 / 22.04.04
Bollocks. You want to talk about the comics properly using the concept of the institute as school, then it's highly relevant. He just couldn't be arsed to actually treat it as a boarding school for MUTANT CHILDREN, as he's been so highly praised for having done in his run on the comic.

There's no effort made on these comics at all. It's all "nick this idea, nick that idea, recycle Claremont-era angst, make Jean Grey a wanker, sling it all together, quirky lil' Morrison one-liner here and there, off for coffee, take long lunch, nick this idea, nick that idea, recycle that idea from my other stuff (memo: have mined Invisibles concepts for too long... maybe return to storytelling, a la Zenith and Doom Patrol? Nah, fans won't 'get' it...), cute lil' Morrison one liner here... hell, that's six months done. Did I recycle Claremont's Shi'ar invasion storylines from the Dark Phoenix saga? Yeah, got that - I am allowed to make Magneto a useless fucktard, right? Yeah, got carte blanche to do whatever I like as long as it seems kool to me, and everything seems kool to me, so hey! Oh, my old idea from Animal Man about superheroes wearing kool jackets instead of/with the spandex - let's recycle that. In fact, let's use an almost identical design. The fans won't notice (when do they ever, and it's a really kool jacket..."
 
 
Spaniel
14:36 / 22.04.04
Jack, if you're gonna start crying again...
 
 
diz
15:44 / 22.04.04
*yawn* this whole line of critique is getting pretty borecore. all ideas are recycled versions of someone else's ideas. what's your point?
 
 
eddie thirteen
03:27 / 23.04.04
Personally, no offense, Jack, but if I hated any comic as much as you seem to hate this one -- I'm waiting for a scathing critique of the quality of the staples used to hold the individual issues together at this point -- I'm sure I would have stopped reading it well before the end of a forty-issue run. I'm not about to make an argument for it being Morrison's best work, but when you get to a place where you're accusing the man of ripping of a series he himself wrote fifteen years ago because the main character wore a black jacket and, hey, the X-Men wear black jackets, too -- um, never mind both (a) that the look of the NXM characters was much more obviously derived from the Matrix-stylee costumes they wore in the hugely popular X-Men movie, which had been released less than a year before Morrison started NXM, and (b) just how really nitpicky and crazy it sounds to accuse someone of swiping an incredibly minor detail from *himself* in the first place -- man, I dunno, maybe it's time to take a little step back.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
12:02 / 23.04.04
Dude, how can you swipe an idea from yourself? I said he reused old ideas from his own work. Sometimes he doesn't even bother putting new spins on them, or even enlarging the context so that it fits in the new work.

My main point (which you're right, I've been labouring, but that's what rants are for) is that Morrison has become a VERY LAZY WRITER. I do not believe that his New X-men run is even a good run, much less a great run, much less a groundbreaking run. As of two weeks ago, I have now finished reading it (borrowed it off a mate on CD - and as to why I read the whole thing when I thougt it was shit? Gotta have something to do on the train to work, and I draw the line at the fucking Punisher), and much to my dismay, it actually got worse, and actually completely lost cohesion (from a narrative point of view). As a writer who's written serial comics (albeit unpublished, granted), and who has a fair understanding of the basics involved in actually plotting and pacing a narrative, it seems that Morrison has not even tried. It's frustrating, it pisses on the memory of a comics series that I used to love, and a comics writer I used to hold in fairly high regard, and this thread gave me the perfect soapbox to shout about it for a couple of weeks.

As to "all ideas are recycled versions of someone else's ideas" - yes. Yes, this may be the case, although I'd love to see you twist yourself in a knot trying to prove such a blatantly unproveable supposition. However, ripping ideas wholesale from other works (some of which are your own) and using them in your new work is fine. Not a problem. I love Tarantino's films, for example. However, when everyone and his pet monkey praises the stunning concepts, fantastic ideas, etc, it makes me want to take hammers and teeth to their skulls to see if part of their brains are missing. Everyone knows Tarantino is an accomplished thief - it's the execution that's all his, and that's (IMO rightly) praised. Morrison gets praised for being a creative genius, and I've not seen him actually be creative in years. I keep waiting for him to get back on form, but it's been striking me recently that he doesn't actually think he's off form, so...

Oh, while I'm ranting - another thing, albeit threadrotty. Just because some asshole in New York decided that he was going to use the word 'borecore' to describe everything he had no time for, does not mean that it actually means anything. In fact, it's solipsistic crud-on-a-stick, much like Flux himself. Yes, I blame him, and him alone - not because it's necessarily his fault, but because I'd like to see the pointless fuck bleed from his nose just once before I die. Horrible fucking word. Horrible fucking man. I feel better now. I can leave this thread with the conscience of a tender angel.
 
 
diz
13:45 / 23.04.04
As to "all ideas are recycled versions of someone else's ideas" - yes. Yes, this may be the case, although I'd love to see you twist yourself in a knot trying to prove such a blatantly unproveable supposition.

what's there to twist myself in a knot about? that's pretty much a given at this point for anyone who's followed the last few decades of theory on language and cognition and memes and blah blah blah. where have you been?

Oh, while I'm ranting - another thing, albeit threadrotty. Just because some asshole in New York decided that he was going to use the word 'borecore' to describe everything he had no time for, does not mean that it actually means anything.

this bizarre hatred of Flux you seem to have been obsessively nursing is pretty borecore, too.

and, obviously, it does mean something. it means "the opposite of joycore." duh.
 
 
The Falcon
13:54 / 23.04.04
Wow, you're making friends everywhere, Jack.

Mudslinging aside - mutants breed. I cannot believe the level of outrage and disbelief you managed to wring from your keyboard about one particular pairing.

If I have a whole day to spare, I'll dismantle the rest of your very boring, if not 'borecore' posts.
 
 
PatrickMM
15:46 / 23.04.04
(I've only read the first two hardcovers of NXM)

New X-Men is far more original and fresh than Doom Patrol, which I'd assume you hold in high regard. It's less about the ideas and more about playing around with the characters. The Scott/Emma/Jean triangle was amazing, just really fun, soap opera style character interaction. I know that that page at the end of issue 128 or so, with Scott going to Emma, and Emma saying "I think you came to Auntie Emma just in time," that was phenomenal, just emotionally.

And, I don't think the ideas are retread. He has certain themes he goes back to, yes, but he's never done anything like Quentin Quire, or even the sheer soapiness of Murder and the Mansion.

I think there's always a tendency to prefer the work you read first. I read Doom Patrol after reading New X, and The Invisibles, hence I didn't find that as strikingly original as others have. Whereas if you read his 80's work first, you'd be looking for similarities in New X, and also be comparing it to works that have become rarified in your mind, hence, no matter how good it is, it could never measure up to the memory of reading those books for the first. I know the third time I read The Invisibles, it didn't measure up to the legendary work I had constructed in my mind after reading it the first two times.

And the jacket is point is just ridiculous. If he threw a jacket over the Jim Lee suits, you'd have a point, but he made a whole new look for them, with shirt, pants and jacket. It's a completely different situation.
 
 
m
18:09 / 23.04.04
Seems to me that folks are picking on the rantier minor parts of Jack's posts, and ignoring all of his major points.
 
 
diz
18:49 / 23.04.04
Seems to me that folks are picking on the rantier minor parts of Jack's posts, and ignoring all of his major points.

he has major points? news to me. he seems to just want to bitch.
 
 
m
21:11 / 23.04.04
Mr. Morrison's biggest selling point is that he has all of these CRAZY ideas that'll blow your mind. What Jack is saying, and I tend to agree with him, is that Morrison's CRAZY ideas are becoming pretty familiar, and that his writing on NXM in particular, has not been good enough to compensate. Remember, there's more to writing than just stringing ideas together and calling it a day. There's also stuff like characterization, pacing, and coherence.

For instance, if you were reading the script for NXM you would never be able to tell who was saying what 'cause everyone talks in good old familiar Morrison-speak. One consequence of such flat characterization is that when surprising character developments actually occur they don't make you think, "gee, I didn't see that comin'", they make you think, "huh, where the hell did that come from?" The Beast coming out was so strange because it could have just as likely been any of the other X-people. They were all ciphers.

The Morrison-speak doesn't only screw up the characterization, it also makes plot advancement herky-jerky and unclear. So much time is afforded to verbal Lasersharkery (see page one for definition. what a great word) that when it comes time to move the story along, great-big-huge-important events have to take place off page. In NXM there was a hell of a lot of, "Oh yeah, by the way, I just destroyed an ancient intergalactic empire/ whole country/ most of Manhattan a second ago. Thought you might like know, 'cause we won't be mentioning it again." Now, that's just downright lazy storytelling.

Also, Jack's right about all of that "borecore" shit. Put up or shutup, folks.
 
  

Page: 1(2)

 
  
Add Your Reply