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The fine line between challenging storytelling, and overly confusing storytelling

 
  

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m
02:30 / 02.04.04
First off, let me just say that really I dig on Grant Morrison's writing. I understand that he likes to leave things ambiguous, that he throws in lots of suprising plot shifts to keep things exciting, that his books work as meta fiction whatsit whoozit and that there's hyper sigiltastic magic in there too. I love that stuff, it's what attracted me to his work in the first place. That said, there are times in just about every one of his books that I get the impression that I have been lost by unintentionally confusing storytelling. I haven't read a lot of criticism about it, and it seems to me that he's usually just given the benefit of the doubt when some part of his book is unclear. Grant's in a nice position in that he can fuck up and there's a whole web community that is willing to bring in whatever crazy theory it needs to explain his mistake. There were a lot of points in the New X-men threads where folks were doing some pretty hilarious mental gymnastics just to explain silly little inconsistancies between panels. So anyway, have you encountered any vexing fuck ups or unintentional ambiguities in Morrison's books, and if so, to what crazy lengths did people go to explain them to you?
 
 
Pan Paniscus
14:49 / 02.04.04
I haven't read any new stuff by Morrison for some time (last thing was E is for Extinction), but I have recently reread quite a few Animal Man, Doom Patrol and Invisibles issues (and some other stuff) from when I younger. I think a lot of his writing (especially on long series like those), because of the forshadowing and repetition and interconnectedness, works better in large chunks read back to back. I'd originally read them issue by issue, with gaps of a month or more inbetween, and they'd often confuse the hell out of me at the time. They each make much more sense as big long narratives if you can read the whole lot in a weekend.

Having said that, I think it's a testament to the quality of the storytelling that I even have those back issues to reread now. Even when i didn't know what was going on, I was still engaged enough with the flow of the story to make the effort to keep buying it month after month. There'd always be an image, a twist, or a well-phrased line that'd stop me from thinking I'd wasted my money.

Also, there's so much information in the comics that you can always find something you'd forgotten, which often seem to be one of the weirdest/ most overly confusing elements, which is now made into a fun surprise because you forgot it was there. Either that, or you pick up on a detail you'd previously overlooked, which suddenly explains something that happened apparently randomly five issues ago.

I don't know about New X-Men (or mental gymnastics) and how that finally panned out, but everything I've read by GM does seem to make some sort of sense eventually, even if it's several years after the first reading. As far as them being 'fractal' comics, or supporting any ideas of convergence, you can take it or leave it. But the attempt to do something like that does make for a rewarding type of storytelling, even if sometimes it can border on the incomprehensible.
 
 
PatrickMM
21:22 / 02.04.04
I think Morrison certainly gets more benefit of the doubt on things that don't make sense, but, because he's telling the sort of stories that make you work, I think you go in expecting to be confused, and not able to sort out everything until the end. On The Filth, I heard a lot of people complaining that it didn't make sense as it was going along, and that's accurate, you need to wait until the end, and frequently reread to make connections.

Are people making connections that aren't there? It's quite likely, but I'd imagine there's some things that Morrison imagined that no one else has written about. When you make a work that relies so much on interpertation, it really is up to the reader to come up with something that works for them.

I think Morrison resembles David Lynch a lot in that respect. If I saw Mulholland Drive, and wasn't approaching it from the mindframe of it being a puzzle, I might just say that it makes no sense, and dismiss the film. But because it's Lynch, I gave it the benefit of the doubt, and came up with my own interpertation of what happened. People like Lynch and Morrison can get away with things that other writers can't, just due to the reputation for narrative experimentation and challenging stories.
 
 
O.C Goodwin
08:42 / 03.04.04
I think Morrisons reputation or writer personality to those of us within at the moment the relatively small comics industry give him latitude for his crazy ideas than we do other writers ...
but yeah even when its confusing its still cool..
 
 
TroyJ15
15:04 / 03.04.04
I think Matthew has a valid point, one that I thought of but was abit apprehensive about saying on the thread. Sometimes I wonder if Morrison is being lazy or just doing a great job and I'm not getting it. It's true however that is stories read better in large chunks and that's exactly what happened for me with points of New X-Men , what I don't appreciate however is leaving so many plot threads open-ended. Now the excuse for this can be that he does this so you can come to your own conclusions or so other writers can spring off. I don't mind a few open-ended things but Morrison makes me wonder sometimes if I'm being a sucker and he really wasn't giving it a second thought. But ultimately if I've enjoyed it for the most part from the beggining then I will enjoy it enough to try to figure out the end.
 
 
The Natural Way
15:58 / 03.04.04
I think it might be a bit of a mistake to "approach Mulholland drive like a puzzle", Patrick. Hard empirical evidence is scarce in Lynch's films. He's an intuitive, impressionistic film-maker and he doesn't scramble time, space, place and identity just so we can piece it back together in the "correct shape". I say this, not because I think yr being dumb (I dig yr posts), just that you may be barking up a bit of a blind alley. With Lynch, it's far more important to ask the questions "What am I feeling?"; "What does this resonate with?". He works by an analogous, emotional logic, not an intellectual one.

And that's where his work really departs from Morrison's. Sure, Grant plays in this kind of area, but strays from it far too often in order to shoe-horn his ideas into some kind of over-arching theoretical framework. In some ways, his mystical experiences, and his interpretations of them, get in the way of his best writing. That is to say, when Grant stops proselytizing and just starts to "feel his way", he tends to throw up the best stuff.
 
 
FinderWolf
21:44 / 03.04.04
I think Grant's New X-Men run, while overall really terrific, is the only work of his that has a few (small, but nonetheless there) holes that genuinely seem to me to be holes, and not really 'show, don't tell/make the reader connect the dots to challenge you to think' stuff.
 
 
penitentvandal
18:52 / 04.04.04
Grant's in a nice position in that he can fuck up and there's a whole web community that is willing to bring in whatever crazy theory it needs to explain his mistake.

I quite like the idea of bringing in random crazy theories to explain writer/artist fuck-ups. It reminds me of the glory days of the 'No-Prize' over at Marvel...
 
 
PatrickMM
19:30 / 04.04.04
I think it might be a bit of a mistake to "approach Mulholland drive like a puzzle", Patrick. Hard empirical evidence is scarce in Lynch's films. He's an intuitive, impressionistic film-maker and he doesn't scramble time, space, place and identity just so we can piece it back together in the "correct shape". I say this, not because I think yr being dumb (I dig yr posts), just that you may be barking up a bit of a blind alley. With Lynch, it's far more important to ask the questions "What am I feeling?"; "What does this resonate with?". He works by an analogous, emotional logic, not an intellectual one.

Yeah, a puzzle was probably the wrong term. I really like that idea that he uses emotions to connect events rather than a linear narrative. Club Silencio in Mulholland Drive, or the fucking in the headlights sequence in Lost Highway both don't really make that much sense narratively (it's possible to come up with something, but it's all speculation), but on an emotional level, those two scenes are the high point of the film, as well as the primary turning points in the narrative.

And that's where his work really departs from Morrison's. Sure, Grant plays in this kind of area, but strays from it far too often in order to shoe-horn his ideas into some kind of over-arching theoretical framework. In some ways, his mystical experiences, and his interpretations of them, get in the way of his best writing. That is to say, when Grant stops proselytizing and just starts to "feel his way", he tends to throw up the best stuff.

Very true. I think Grant has more of an agenda in writing, he's trying to show people his view of the world. His little essay in one of The Invisibles letter columns, that talked about all the stuff he'd discuss before the end of the series (what happens to you after you die, etc.) was a good example of that. Lynch doesn't have that, he's more concerned with making you feel.

For me, Grant is best when he really integrates the narrative and the preaching. Robin's return in 3.1 is critical to understanding the supercontext, but it's also one of the most emotional moments of the series. Similarly, Fanny kissing Quimper (I just got where that trade title came from), and Jack restoring Miles' aura in 3.1, and the last issues of Animal Man and Doom Patrol. The weaker Morrison is when he just spits out terms and concepts, but doesn't anchor them with strong characters.
 
 
eeoam
19:40 / 04.04.04
I think Morrison's biggest problem is that he hasn't evolved as a writer. And so he has fallen foul of the fate that awaits all writers who don't grow – he's become a parody of himself. I mean I read the filth - all at once not month by month - and it read like someone had looked at GM's weird' work and had attempted to emulate him but of course it didn't work because he wasn't really telling a story – he was just cobbling together bits and pieces and trying to force them to achieve the effect he wanted (and failing miserably). He hoped that the 'weird' label would keep us from noticing what was wrong and instead that we would think that we were just too stupid to understand the book.
It was his MATRIX RELOADED basically.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
19:42 / 04.04.04
Felt more like an expungence of all the psychic crud he'd accrued whilst writing the Utopian ending of the Invisibles. Bloody funny it was too.
 
 
PatrickMM
03:51 / 05.04.04
I came across a quote from Lynch that serves as a good juxtapostion to GM:

Lynch: "I'm of the Western Union school. If you want to send a message, go to Western Union. It's even a problem with responsibility. You have to be free to think up things. They come along, these ideas, and they hook themselves together, and the unifying thing is the euphoria they give you ro the repulsion they give you - and you throw these ideas away. You have to just trust yourself."
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
06:54 / 05.04.04
The thing that interested me was that New X-Men and The Filth broadly speaking start and end in the same place, a rescue agency and then a sacrifice in order to make the world a better place. Of course, The Filth goes off and spends 12 issues talking about bad sex while New X-Men does superheroiy stuff, but the end of New X-Men helped me understand the end of The Filth more, though I still think that it's rubbish.
 
 
Krug
15:50 / 05.04.04
/How can you tell when Grant Morrison is fucking up?/

When his stories read like shit and everyone on Barbelith has explanations ready ; )
 
 
Jack Denfeld
16:52 / 05.04.04
Or maybe he's just got a reputation over the years as a "weirdo" writer, that people will skip over something they could easily figure out and just say "whoa, weirdo, moving on".

Or maybe there are some dumb readers out there. Maybe Morrison was never really supposed to be the kind of writer who was the face of mainstream comic books, but then he landed the JLA gig and then the X-Men gig, and all of a sudden everyone has to read him even if they're accustomed to a really different style of comic writing.
 
 
Spaniel
17:14 / 05.04.04
Or maybe he's a very interesting, rewarding, fascinating, writer who occasionally gives way to bouts of slapdashery.
Not sure he's always particularly articulate, neither.

And, ya know, sometimes he falls back on some rather tired techniques - telling as opposed to showing, for example.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
17:28 / 05.04.04
And, ya know, sometimes he falls back on some rather tired techniques - telling as opposed to showing, for example.

True dat. I figure at times he wants to include a lot of stuff but then stops himself because it'll slow down the story.
 
 
stinkbot
20:42 / 05.04.04
For some reason i think if grant morrison just wrote a cliche story with no plot twists it would still be better than any other on the shelf. For some reason i look at other writers comics, like millar or ellis a lesster immataion.

Morrison comes up with wierd storys that make you think for sure, but i think for me sometimes its the characters he creates that make you wanna push through the crap that doesnt make a bit of sense. He even made me care about greg feely who had almost no redeemable value. I dont think ive ever read any persons comics where all the characters and their interactions were as well written.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
11:45 / 07.04.04
I think, essentially, that Morrison hit his own glass ceiling a while back - his creativity isn't in question, both in original material and in his appropriation of others' material and attempting to place a new spin upon it. I just don't think he's currently a good enough writer to place those ideas in the context of a good story. And the lowering of critical standards in reviewing his work has probably given him the impression that he's still firing on all cylinders, in all honesty. He's an excitable chap, after all, and it's not beneath him to completely believe in his own hype when it's perpetuated on a daily basis.

I think that due to the nature of the way they're produced, monthly comics, more than almost any other medium or aspect of the medium, require tight editorial control and an objective critical presence for the writers, in particular, to continue to produce serially good work. With the loss of letters pages in comics, and the only people online willing to properly go over Morrison's stuff being his fans who - pardon me - can verge on the obsessive, I don't think anyone's actually had the guts or the interest in approaching him and telling him that his storytelling skills are suffering.

Like Ellis, he tends to lasershark (ie, throw in seven mediocre-to-good ideas when one excellent idea will do) - again like Ellis, he also tends to have his characters speak in exactly the same way, in his own style. Ellis has every paper-thin nails-hard Old Bastard speaking in the same hard-bitten, piss-taking style (the one that Lobo took the piss out of so much in the recent Lobo/Authority comic) because he thinks it's cool, and because he wishes he actually talked like that. Morrison has his characters speaking in Morrisonese - for example, Jean Grey calls Cyclops "her favourite superhero", not because that's something Grey would ever say, but because Morrison thinks it's cool, and because it's something he'd say. And because it's a lovely one liner for a superhero (by any other name) to say to another superhero, we skip over the poor collision detection in the characterisation.

And I've noticed far too often in the last few years that deus ex is the order of the day when it comes to a drmatic climax - characters will have the upper hand, only for their victims to say something like "You don't understand," pull the rug out from under them in an underwritten fashion, and pontificate in a few choice, cool-sounding soundbites for a few panels. Sometimes this will happen several times in a row in one scene. His New X-Men stuff is full of this kind of lazy writing, there because Morrison thinks this kind of showdown is cool, not because it works dramatically. This, for me, leads back to the subject of the atrophy of his storytelling skills.

Zenith, St. Swithin's Day, Doom Patrol, Animal Man, the first half of the Invisibles - all wonderful stuff. It's since then that things have fallen off, in my opinion.
 
 
Spaniel
15:14 / 07.04.04
Yes, Morrisonese can get v. irritating.

Sadly alot of comic writers have the same failing.
 
 
Haus of Mystery
15:20 / 07.04.04
But not President Chuck Dixon!
 
 
m
17:09 / 07.04.04
To Lasershark. Man, that is the coolest verb ever.
 
 
PatrickMM
03:41 / 08.04.04
I think it may not be that Morrison is falling off so much as you know all his tricks. I just read Doom Patrol, and was underwhelmed. I liked it, but it wasn't the earth shatteringly great run that I'd heard people discuss. I think both New X-Men and The Filth were stronger works. I think Grant is still doing the best work in the medium, but I would agree that it sometimes seems like he is trying to hard to fit in cool concepts, rather than character development. Though, IMO, New X was one of his best character based works yet.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
07:17 / 08.04.04
Yeah, but it ain't difficult to revitalise a flagging ongoing superhero title. Peter David, warren Ellis, Kurt Busiek, John Ostrander, D G Chichester, god knows how many other writers/hacks have had that kind of plaudit. Essentially, all you have to do is improve on what went before - not hard given the X-men's poor showing in the last ten years. And since Morrison came to the gig with an army of loyal - and vocal - fans, it's not surprising reviews were positive.

For what it's worth, I really didn't like what I read. As a longtime X-men fan, I found that none of the characters were acting quite right. Most of the storylines I read seemed like slight revamps of old X-men stories and situations. And every time Morrison mentioned 'evolution', I was just cringing... the man obviously doesn't have a very broad understanding of the term, and seems to consider the physical evolution of the species as something, not analogous to, but comparable to, the kind of mental evolution he experiences from magic and the like. Which it just isn't. If you're going to figure hard science in your stories, you need to have wider reading habits, Grant.

At the end of the day, the X-men is a very generic genre work. His stuff wasn't remotely groundbreaking, and not particularly well put together, either. A couple of cool soundbites don't make up for the kind of lazy inconsistencies I saw there.
 
 
misterpc
10:39 / 08.04.04
Glad to see that there are others out there feeling the same way as I do... I still believe that GM is one of the greatest comic book writers the medium has seen, although not necessarily a great writer in himself, as the columns on his website demonstrate.

A quick thought to tag along with this discussion. One of the things that most impressed me when I started reading GM (Zenith / Animal Man / Doom Patrol) was the way that everything seemed to come together at the end of the run. This holds true in the run in New X-Men, and I have no doubt that GM has plotted everything fairly carefully (while leaving some holes for us to chew on, natch).

However it seems that many people get overly impressed that Grant actually thinks about the end when he's writing the beginnings. This is standard writing practice in every medium except serial comics and serial television drama, people.

The use of foreshadowing is cool (Animal Man's time travel trip being a great example, where suddenly you have to reread the entire series to see the signs, as it were), but it's not revolutionary - it's a standard literary device. GM has introduced it into comics in a way we haven't seen before - but let's not pretend it's more impressive than it is.

Is one of the reasons that it looks impressive to us is because virtually no other comic writers can be bothered? How can you tell when Grant Morrison is fucking up? You can't, because he's such a metatextual writer that it can always be argued that the fuck-up is part of the text itself...
 
 
The Natural Way
13:42 / 08.04.04
Whilst I agree with everything you have to say about editorial, Jack (and I'm so pleased SOMEONE said it), I don't hold with all this "Grant didn't take the X Men anywhere" stuff. For a start, he actually PLAYED the evolution angle - something sorely neglected in the X Men of yesteryear, in favour of the racism stuff (which quite frankly was getting soooo tired). Not only that, but he turned the institute into a school for the first time ever; added a huge dose of wonder, otherness and horror to the idea of mutation; brought a sense of humour to the book and injected all the stale, old ideas - Sentinels, long lost relatives, Xavier's dream, The Phoenix...blah - with a huge dose of fun and imagination. And those he couldn't (Magneto), he offed.

There was a genuine attempt over the course of Morrison's run to reappraise and reimagine.

And I don't care about whether or not he played the science hard. That's just a question of taste.
 
 
TroyJ15
14:04 / 08.04.04
A bit off subject...but on the subject:

Mullholland Drive was a gimmick instead of a movie. That is my biggest problem with it. I ask you, would the story had been as interesting if it had been told in a liner format. I really doubt it. Unlike, say, Pulp Fiction in which, in spite of the film being thrown around chronologically, it still is effective...Mullholland Drive is a cheap trick. And it plays out as such. Granted it was supposed to be a TV show, a matter of fact, alot of the shots were taking from the stuff they filmed for the TV show before the network told Lynch "No" and he decided to use it all for a film, but it's not a movie...in my opinion, it's a gimmick.
 
 
The Natural Way
16:33 / 08.04.04
What's the gimmick, then?

Non-linear time? Christ, look, Mulholland has nothing in common with Pulp Fiction, precisely because you can't slot it together "correctly". It's not a bloody formal trick, it's an emotional fugue. A disastrous relationship playing itself out obsessively - endlessly renegotiating its possibilities, limits and boundaries. A ghost haunting the celluloid.

It's also an exploration of Hollywood, glamour and the "clean and proper body" that we attempt to impose on our relationships.

A million times more human and relevant than Tarantino's fun (but essentially rather vacuous) post-modern gangster-fest.

Aaah, go and dig up the thread in Film, we can debate this there.
 
 
The Natural Way
16:48 / 08.04.04
Sorry about the grumpiness Troy (I certainly don't intend to greet every one of yr posts with the same sour face), but I think you've basically got it very, very wrong when you assume Mulholland Drive can be "told in a linear format", and taking that into account kind of invalidates the essential premise of yr critique. There's also the fact that dismissing a film that clearly has much, much more to say than "look, see how time is fucked up" seems a little wilfully disingenuous.
 
 
eddie thirteen
19:07 / 08.04.04
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh...I don't think that guy has even SEEN Mulholland Drive. Either that, or there's an essential misapprehension of what linear/non-linear means. The movie is a mobius strip. It cannot move in a straight line because it is a LOOP. There isn't a before or after because you're dealing with two realities, neither of which is necessarily the "real" one, and...

...Gahhhhhhh! I gotta go to class!

The crappy parts of NXM are clearly meant to be crappy. That's why you have characters talking about how crappy it is that Magneto's back, there was never a Xorn, Magneto has all the same stupid ideas as before, etc. I was just listening to a guy on NPR who's written a book called Changing Minds, and his theory (one of them) is that getting new ideas across is not possible without also (I paraphrase) throwing rocks at the old idea until it wobbles around and finally falls dead. Pretty much exactly what GM was doing toward the end of NXM. He clearly failed, because the reboot/reload/re-whatever (retread, maybe?) x-books all look like shit from fifteen or twenty years ago. He may have failed, in part, because toward the end NXM really *did* kinda suck (not to get all Butthead over here, but I think the reasons for its kinda-suckingness have been thoroughly explored here and in other threads) in addition to being about the kind of stories *that* suck.
 
 
The Natural Way
11:15 / 09.04.04
The crappy parts of NXM are clearly meant to be crappy.

Eddie, this is a really dodgy premise because it makes criticism nigh on impossible.

Bloke: What about that bit of dialogue? That was shit.
Other Bloke: No, you see, it's supposed to be shit.
Bloke: You mean it's actually very clever?
Other Bloke: That's right.
Bloke: Thanks for clearing that up.
 
 
TroyJ15
12:33 / 09.04.04
sorry I should have elaborated but I was short on time. The gimmick is that the majority of the film is one girl's drug induced stupor. Her thoughts after being completly consumed by Hollywood, right before she checks out. At least that was always my interpretation. And the movies story comes from that fact. I used Pulp Fiction as an example because it also has a gimmick, in that it's told out of chronological order but to me (granted these are still two drastically different movies) the story is interesting either way. Mullholland Drive lost my interest about halfway through. I recognize that it could not be told any other way for it to be effective, but I just felt that there was not enough story there, and that really all Lynch was doing was entertaining his own personal indulgences instead of telling a strong story.
I get what eddie is saying, his defense isn't it's supposed to be shit, necessarily it's that Morrison was pointing many of the X-books cliches and putting them at the forefront, so that even the characters get it:

Emma: This is only the third time she's died on you, Scott.
Scott: Not funny, Emma.
Emma: Yes it is and you know it.

I think Eddie answered a part of the question but not the whole question. He pointing out that Morrison recognizes the goofiness of all this and plays with it, but it still doesnt really answer the question ---how do you know when he is fucking up?
 
 
eddie thirteen
17:34 / 09.04.04
Well...damn. Thanks, Troy! I can only presume you can sense a fellow short-on-time poster when you read one and made allowances accordingly. But yeah, to elaborate, Morrison has characters within the text comment on the use of cliches (the "death" of the Phoenix, the return of Magneto, etc.), and what's more, he has characters comment on the stupidity of the plot itself vs. what has gone before. (As someone else noted in a similar thread, Beak's horror and disgust at Magneto's behavior -- said behavior being no more than an amplification of what Magneto has done a million times before, in previous x-fanboy epics -- is also commentary on the tired tropes of superhero comics vs. what Morrison had been trying to do in his run to that point.)

Nevertheless...

In the case of Planet X, I think you can tell that Morrison is, if not fucking up, at least not hitting on all cylinders consistently. It may be a story about tired story ideas, and that's fine, but it's also very, very slight when judged against most of the previous arcs. Too much happens off-panel, and we're shorted on key scenes that could have gone places, but don't (what sticks out most in my mind is the Wolverine/Jean scene, a squandered opportunity for all kinds of things...I mean, look, for one thing, if Scott can cheat on his wife and remain sympathetic, why the hell can't Wolverine finally get it on with this woman like he's been trying to do since, I dunno, 1975 or something? To say nothing of the predictable Phoenix resurrection minus any real explanation of what the Phoenix means in the NXM run, which might actually have been interesting, or at least more interesting than a "plot twist" anyone could have seen coming two dozen issues back), while at the same time we spend forEVER on stuff like Magneto's takeover of Manhattan, which needed to be maybe ten pages...not a complete issue. Not to mention things that do not work at all, like the whole goofy routine with the NYC cop stereotype. So......

Basically, I think if you read any story and find it unsatisfying, by any writer, the writer is fucking up, to a lesser or greater degree. I don't think I've ever read a comic of Morrison's that I thought completely failed, but some are definitely less scatter-shot than others. Obviously, mileage may vary.
 
 
eddie thirteen
17:34 / 09.04.04
Man...this double-posting is seriously starting to bug me.
 
 
Jack The Bodiless
01:39 / 10.04.04
Soooo... Morrison acknowledging the X-men's weird, repetitive, fucked up history within the text is somehow nouveau? Fucks sake. Wes Craven's Scream movies, anyone? And, for anyone else who may have missed it, the X-men has been taking the piss out of the whole revolving door, same-old-same-old for fifteen years, to varying degrees of success. So it's not groundbreaking in the comics, or in terms of the writing... it's just trad.

Repetitive, repetitive, repetitive. Dull as ditchwater.
 
  

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