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"Joycore" Comics - Recommendations?

 
  

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■
11:23 / 24.03.04
You sure Sooner or Later never got collected?
Fred the Clown!
 
 
diz
11:37 / 24.03.04
Ditto with Transmet, but that's because I felt it got wrapped up in its own excesses at the expense of its narrative.

i think the problem with Transmet is exactly the opposite - that as time went on it got too wrapped up in its stale, conventional, relatively dull narrative at the expense of the gonzo excess of the earlier future commentary stuff. things like Spider watching TV worked - the umpteenth installment of Spider's self-important crusade against the Smiler didn't.
 
 
Bed Head
11:42 / 24.03.04
Cube:

BondPhilipBond has got a back catalogue that's lovely as fuck and half a mile long, pretty much all of which could do with a damn good reprinting. In a single big, fat, black and white volume, with a flexi disc of choons bound in the middle and a lollypop sellotaped on the cover. And stacked on the counter in all cool record shops. It’d be the biggest selling comic in history and would spread sunshine and joy throughout the land.

I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re right and I’m wrong re: Sooner or Later. But I’ve never seen a copy.
 
 
sleazenation
11:43 / 24.03.04
Surely Fred the Clown is the antithesis of joy - not because its ever dull or boring, but because its so unremittingly emotionally bleak and painful to read - Fred the Clown is hardcore.
 
 
Haus, Heart, Home, Hearth
11:52 / 24.03.04
INVINCIBLE by Kirkman

Just go and buy it.

Now.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:20 / 24.03.04




I'm a stuck record, I know.
 
 
sleazenation
12:21 / 24.03.04
Macro-Sentinel - why?
 
 
sleazenation
12:26 / 24.03.04
Was really and truely 2000AD? If you then it's prolly worth dropping them a line saying you would buy such a collection - they have an editor handeling their GN line and its always worthletting such people know what GN's you want to see (but not zenith - the editor inquestion turns into the hulk when anyone asks...).
 
 
D Terminator XXXIII
13:05 / 24.03.04
JLA was kinetic fun. Of that I can agree.

Carl Barks' and Don Rosa's Donald Duck is mightier fun, at times.
 
 
Haus, Heart, Home, Hearth
13:34 / 24.03.04
Invincible

Fun.
Strong continuity that doesn't bog the story down.
Creative.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
13:51 / 24.03.04
Ah, this is what I get for getting to these threads a bit late - there's a few things I want to respond to but its a bit overwhelming, and I'm already burned out on this topic after discussing it at length yesterday on IM with Big Sunny D.

I don't think there are really that many joycore comics because the overwhelming majority of people involved in making comics today are either overtly Borecore or somewhat resistant to embracing Joycore.

I think that the personality type which is drawn to working in comics is predisposed to Borecore - shy, quiet, depressive, shut-ins with limited social skills. I think that's why the overwhelming majority of the comics produced fall into one of three basic categories - wish fulfillment/fantasy, regressive nostalgia, or misanthropic, misery stuff. What else are these people going to do? They are just expressing themselves, and they attract an audience similar to themselves.

I think that a lot of what seems like joycore in comics today really is just that regressive child-like element, which I think CAN be joycore, but often isn't quite the same thing. It's kinda like how I don't think that collecting toys is a particularly joycore hobby.

I agree that this thread seems to have become a "what comics would you give somebody who doesn't read comics" and not about Joycore. I can't think of any other reason why some of these suggestions would be made.

I'd agree that a lot of what Grant Morrison has done has a Joycore spirit. Philip Bond and Mike Allred are very Joycore artists. Most 60s Marvel comics are very Joycore to me. Alan Moore is most certainly not Joycore. Daniel Clowes isn't Joycore, but occasionally little glimmers of Joycore come through in his work. Love And Rockets is pretty Joycore, or at least the bits I've read.

X-Statix is very, very Joycore. That's probably the most Joycore comic currently being published.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
14:01 / 24.03.04
Here for my Really & Truly reasoning. sleaze - cheers, I'll do that.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
17:27 / 24.03.04
Yeah, I pretty much willfully ignored the stated topic and went w/where the topic looked like it was going (entry-level comics for new readers). Mostly because I totally agree w/Matthew's assessment: joycore comics are almost completely non-existent. Which is especially true for non-superhero material (although the vast majority of superhero material = borecore plus). On the joycore tip, I'd still recommend Los. Bros Hernandez, although Love & Rockets can get pretty damn dark at times. Junko Mizuno. Maybe Gary Panter. Morrison & Milligan, for the most part. James Kochalka. Bond, Allred, and Cameron Stewart are all pretty joycore artists. I don't know. That's about all I can come up w/at the moment.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:30 / 24.03.04
Yeah, Kolchalka is basically joycore, but is a bit too regressive for my taste. Monkey Vs. Robot and the Crystal Of Power is obviously a very joycore thing.

Cameron is a very Joycore comics artist too, and a lot of that comes from the fact that he (like Mike Allred) really do not fit the typical psychological profile of a comics artist much at all.
 
 
■
17:59 / 24.03.04
Tchoh! I had no idea R&T was a Morrison. However, the 200ad boxes are just too unwieldy right now, and I should be writing an essay.
 
 
sleazenation
18:13 / 24.03.04
Xaimie's love and rockets i can see as having elements of fun, but I really can't see any in Gilbert's work - which funny because i prefer Gilberts work.
 
 
■
20:24 / 24.03.04
The Bojeffries Saga, when and wherever it appears. Come to think of it, most of Steve Parkhouse is groovy.
Ooooh, oooooh Trondheim! Trondheim! ANY of the Lapinot series are superbly silly.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
20:32 / 24.03.04
Seriously, sleaze? No fun in Gilberto's work? I beg to differ, sir. I'll agree that the heavy and/or dark themes are present more in Gilbert's work than Jaime's (and, at times, omnipresent), but I would say that there's often a sense of fun in his stuff (or I would at least say that there used to be, as I have yet to actually read any of his L&R V.2 work).
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:50 / 24.03.04
There's no reason why something can't have dark themes and be Joycore at the same time.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
21:15 / 24.03.04
Really & Truly... I'd forgotten about that. That scene in Mexico on The Day Of The Dead... Really classic stuff.

Didn't Morrison claim at the time he'd written the whole thing in a day on ecstasy ? It wasn't all that long ago, but it seems like ages.

Anyway, I'm going to recommend Johnny The Homicidal Maniac by Jhonen Vasquez - It's not Joycore exactly, but it is... well it's fun. In so far as you don't have to be some kind of bourgeouis ( sic, ) sort of Born Again clown with a Christian agenda, leather etc, right wing thrills, Captain America as a Republican wank-off, while you snail off, hypocritically, genuflect to the church.

Oh well.
 
 
PatrickMM
21:17 / 24.03.04
I've actually "converted" a bunch of people to comics, so here's a couple of tales of what works.

I had a couple of friends who were into Batman, the animated series and the movies, but had never read comics. So, I give them Dark Knight Returns, and both of them love it. Follow it up with Watchmen and we've got some lifelong fans.

For another friend, I gave him Watchmen as a comic to get into, having never read comics before. He doesn't really get into it, and nearly a year later, hasn't finished it. One day, he and someone else come over to my house, and spot The Pro lying around. One read of that, right there in my house and both of them are hooked. I give one Transmet and one of them Preacher. Both of them love the books, read the whole series of each, and then go onto read some more comics.

I think the most important boundary to get past when getting people into comics is that comics are only superheroes, and only for kids. That's why someone like Ennis works so well, since he'll shock you with the content, but also make you care about real people.
 
 
sleazenation
21:34 / 24.03.04
Tron

- perhaps its overstating things to say there is no fun in Gilbert's work, but i certainly see it as closer to Dan Clowes work on the joy scale than anything else.

Yeah, as flux says you can have joyful comics with dark themes, X-statix is a prime example of this but of the comparatively small section of joyful comics it is one of an even rarer example of joyful comics that touch on darker themes. Oddly enough I'd see Manga as a farmore joyful on the whole than most western comics - what say you flux?
 
 
sleazenation
22:11 / 24.03.04
Awhile ago diz said

I think the problem with Transmet is exactly the opposite - that as time went on it got too wrapped up in its stale, conventional, relatively dull narrative at the expense of the gonzo excess of the earlier future commentary stuff. things like Spider watching TV worked - the umpteenth installment of Spider's self-important crusade against the Smiler didn't.

I wasn't sure weither to start this in a new thread or not, but i figured i'd leave it here for the moment and if anyone thinks it should be a new topic, we can move it...

I can appreciate what you are saying and can identify what might be termed as joyous elements in transmet - as you say, the bits of spider acting like hunter s thompson on drugs (well, er more drugs...from the future). But I still think that this was the title's weakness rather than its strength.

To put it another way, the joyous elements, the excesses, while being one of the better accomplished features of the series severely detracted from the journalist's tale that I thought was supposed to be at the heart of the comic. That the Smiler turned out to be such a paper thin, cardboard cutout political villain, that Ellis seemed to fluff the plot, that Spider got such an emotional cheat of a happy ending and the lack of any significant of questioning of the notion of journalist as hero further underminied the journalist's tale narrative, but I still figure that Transmet was supposed to be more about a journalist than about, self-righteous, drug taking tourettes sufferer.
 
 
The Falcon
22:15 / 24.03.04
do not fit the typical psychological profile of a comics artist much at all.

That being? John Byrne?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:29 / 24.03.04
Emotionally stunted shut-ins.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:32 / 24.03.04
I realize that I'm being insulting and reductionist, but I'm just making a general point. Being in comics, particularly if you are an artist on deadlines, requires a fairly solitary life. This isn't a bad thing, necessarily, but a certain type of person is drawn to this kind of thing and it explains why certain ideas and themes dominate the comics world.
 
 
sleazenation
22:34 / 24.03.04
But flux would you say manga is more or less joyful than western comics?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:40 / 24.03.04
Another factor is that comics have a very tiny audience, and there's not much money in it - that narrows things down too, because only a certain kind of person is going to pour so much time, passion, and energy into a medium which almost no one cares about and won't make them much money. I think that a lot of the time, these factors attract a kind of person with an antipathy for mainstream culture, and that's why so few people in comics can embrace or engage with pop culture, much less understand it. Think about all of the failures that the comics world has with trying to attract mainstream audiences - a lot of this comes from the creators and companies behind them having a poor comprehension of what people want or what their consumer habits are like.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:42 / 24.03.04
I suppose that manga is more fun and joyful, and that's what attracts kids and teenagers. It doesn't take itself very seriously, in general. It's colorful and flamboyant, that's for sure.

As a person who does not read or enjoy manga and anime in general terms, I can't speak with great confidence about it.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:46 / 24.03.04
I think that in general terms, manga isn't as hung up respectability and seriousness as western comics have been in the past 20+ years. I think western comics has a horrible inferiority complex and always wants to prove how adult and grown up it is, whereas manga just doesn't give a fuck and is willing to be totally ridiculous. Giving up to that kind of joyful abandon, silliness, and weirdness is very very very Joycore.
 
 
sleazenation
22:59 / 24.03.04
The other thing I'd mention on this thread is tank girl - and Deadline, the comics and music mag that, by and large, worked - fun, irreverent strips and articles/reviews on bands and other media and free tunage on the cover occasionally...

 
 
broken gentleman.
23:09 / 24.03.04
I find transmet is excellent for getting people into comics, because it's not trying too hard to be "real", like so many non-superhero books these days. That said, I can completely see how some people would not get absorbed into the more idealistic portions of the story.

Invincible is another great choice, because it just makes you like the characters, very quickly. It's very Erik Larsen kind of superheroey, but will a little less excess, and a little stronger of a nod to the past. Very comic-esque, but also very differently put together.

I'd say as good as books like Watchmen are, they aren't great for getting people into comics, because they are foremost (obviously just my opinion) powerful in their contrast to the rest of comics at their time. It's kind of like starting off an appreciation in music with some indy metal band. It could be genius, but with no real background in the genre, you kind of miss the brilliance, and just see something technically impressive. People introduced to comics with Dark Knight returns might not get everything that makes it so poignant.

As for other suggestions, maybe something that is both not comicky, and yet very much within the realm of comics, like Y: The Last Man. It's good, entertaining, a little into the realm of the fantastic, but without being a "statement" on the idea of heroes. Also, fun things, like the current New Mutants series. Not the most challenging thing in the world, but it looks cool, has accessible characters, and handles the issue of superness without lots of fanfare. (There are probably continuity needs that I completely disregard because I'm a comic addict)
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
00:15 / 25.03.04
(Note: Some of the links in this post are possibly not work-safe.)

Re: the work of Gilbert Hernandez - There's no reason why something can't have dark themes and be Joycore at the same time.

Precisely. For example: Fear Of Comics is very dark in places, but it's joycore-as-fuck. Possibly a major reason why it's one of my favorite books by any of those crazy Hernandez kids.

About the manga question: I'm honestly not very familiar w/much manga, but what little of it that I am familiar w/I've discovered via my interests in contemporary Japanese art (primarily the Superflat/Hiropon Factory/Kaikai Kiki scene). As noted twice above, I can't recommend the works of Junko Mizuno highly enough.

The comics section of the Giant Robot online store looks like a pretty good repository for a lot of the stuff I've mentioned, as well as some stuff I'd forgotten about. Marc Bell (Shrimpy And Paul), Archer Prewitt (Sof' Boy), and (I suspect, although I haven't read enough of their stuff to say for certain) at least some of the stuff from the Fort Thunder kids would probably make the joycore grade.
 
 
lekvar
02:49 / 25.03.04
One more I forgot, pure Joycore (as far as I understand the concept)
Sam & Max, Freelance Police by Steve Purcel.

As to the whole "converting the unbelievers" thing goes, most people out there have simply never picked up a comic (my girlfriend, for example, was not allowed to read them), or their entire concept of them is SuperFriends or something equally god-awful.

But you can rest assured that they have seen at least one comic-derivative movie in their lives, whether they know it or not.

You just have to tailor your ammunition to the victi- er, initiate.

Older PC gamers will be familiar with the Sam & Max game; Slip them the comic.
Everyone and their goldfish has seen at least one Batman movie; wave Killing Joke under their noses.

The arthouse crowd will have seen Ghost World; Introduce them to 8 Ball.

It has worked for me, I never get the "you like comics?!?" stare anymore....
 
 
matsya
03:21 / 25.03.04
Hm. Joycore stuff. How about Krazy Kat and Tales from the Beanworld? Nutty as fuck and fun fun fun. Don't know about beanavailability, but fantagraphics are reprinting KK strips up the wazoo at the moment. pick a volume at random and dive right in.

m.
 
  

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