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Israel assassinates Hamas leader

 
  

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Joetheneophyte
08:56 / 24.03.04
Northern Ireland is a good analogy and I agree there have been great steps taken there

Sadly (and I admit my defeatist attitude) I cannot see the same good news for Israel

the Israeli Government are not just hard line like the Thatcher Government was in Britain....they are purely crazy in my opinion.

They don't seem to care what their policies achieve and they are so superior militarily to the Palestinians that Geurilla war is bound to continue and reprisals will continue ad infinitum.

America is the only country that could feasibly force the Israeli's to get around the table and talk. Sadly for the reasons outlined above, this is highly unlikely and further complicated by Bush's own 'pre-emptive strike' against Iraq. He cannot really say anything to Sharron without sounding like the ultimate hypocrite....even if he did have the gonads to do so

Jimmy Carter said that when he was trying to broker the peace deal between Israel an the Palestinians in the late 70's, he was chilled by the then Israeli Prime Minister's attitude that Arabs were a lower form of life. I am sure the feeling is somewhat reciprocated in Arab thought and with these type of attitudes (that I believe is still prevailent in the Israeli Government mindset)....peace is impossible

If you actually believe that the person you are being asked to negotiate with is unworthy, how can anything constructive come about?

At least with the US and Ireland....whilst xenophobic nonsense was exhibited on both sides, I do belive there was begrudging resepct and NOT the level of hatred that occurrs between Palestinian and Israeli

Islamic Fundamentalism and the teachings of the Talmud are so intolerant of other religions that the divisions between Protestant and Catholic pale in comparison (imo)


But I hope YOU are right

I sincerely do
 
 
Joetheneophyte
08:58 / 24.03.04
that was meant to say "England and Northern Ireland"

Not US


sorry in a rush, just off to work. Will try to check in later

Joe
 
 
Joetheneophyte
09:02 / 24.03.04
O h by the way, the issue about Islamic Fundamentalism is not the whole picture I know

Many of the Palestinian youth are not overly religious but they adopt a religious fervour like hatred of Israel due to their conditions and the culture of hatred that they are brought up in

the sad thing about Islamic Fundamentlism is that due to the actions of the west ....it is probably on the rise. Iraq did not help


and NO I would not really wish for an asteroid to hit that area.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:43 / 24.03.04
Yeah, I kind of figured you didn't.

BUT... that "solution" not being an option...

what next? What reactions will the world have to the reactions to what happens next?

The US having been the only power not to condemn Yassin's assassination... what's that gonna do to the remainder of "the coalition", which technically should not even have anything to do with this, but in reality...? Even Mr Tony wasn't too happy about this one. (of course, he can always wait a few days, then say he was into agreeing with Georgie all along on the endorsement, and hope us fucking plebs don't remember. A tactic that's served him well thus far).

I'm still of the opinion that Sharon doesn't give a shit about lives cost... (much as I believe in Israel's right to exist)... he's at the stage where the principle matters MORE than the people on whose lives it impacts... does anyone honestly believe he wouldn't blow up an Israeli settlement if he thought there was an important Palestinian "piece" (as in chess) who'd be caught in the blast? Y'know... who gives a fuck about the pawns, take out the rooks etc...
 
 
Joetheneophyte
13:19 / 24.03.04
I agree Sharon does not give a fig for human life, whether that be JEW OR ARAB OR GENTILE


I don't even REALLY BELIEVE he cares about anything ideologically

I might be wrong but I cannot reconcile how anybody who professes a love for Israel can have such little concern for Israeli life?

Again, I take your point that he might be playing the long game and this might all be Sharon thinking of the greater good. I know leadership can force a person to make terribly costly decisions but Sharon's seeming total lack of regard for life goes beyond leadership and strikes me purely of political survival.

he cannot back down and would rather cause havoc and stay in power than make a potentially unpopular concession to the Palestinians
 
 
Ray Fawkes
13:34 / 24.03.04
he cannot back down and would rather cause havoc and stay in power than make a potentially unpopular concession to the Palestinians

The problem is that any concession made to the Palestinians isn't enough for extremist groups like Hamas. They've stated, on more than one occasion (as has the PLO) that they won't be satisfied as long as Israel remains in any form.

I mean, look at the situation. There is a nation, and it has a seperatist population. Not only is that population seperatist, they are (according to their statesmen) seeking the destruction of the nation they currently dwell in. It's demonstrated that a number of them are willing to pursue this goal violently, and with disregard for any diplomatic attempt that doesn't offer dissolution of said nation. How do you negotiate with that?

On the other hand, you have this seperatist population. Because of their desire for soverignity, they are marginalized, cut off from amenities on a regular basis, brutalized, and characterized en masse as violent terrorists. They can't face down the nation's military, they aren't taken seriously at the negotiation table (because of the brutally shortsighted statements of their own representatives) and they can't escape their reputation. How do you negotiate from that position?
 
 
Joetheneophyte
14:03 / 24.03.04
IMPOSSIBLE

I know. I still suspect that Sharon, must love Hamas as they make his job so much easier. If you are willing to accept that Sharon has little interest in Israeli life and sees the good of Greater Israel beyond all else, is it too much of a stretch to believe or even contemplate (as some conspiracy sites assert) that Hamas actually receive funding from Mossad?

I know it sounds ludicrous but I can actually believe that as a political tool, Hamas is actually the hardline Israelis best friend as they provide all the excuse Sharon needs to continue with his policies

I am not stating that that is all there is to Hamas but it does throw a weird perspective on things and in my opinion is not thoroughly beyonf the realms of possibility
 
 
BioDynamo
14:36 / 24.03.04
Aufheben, Brighton's gift to theory sluts all over the world, has the best article ever on the issue: Behind the Twenty-first Century Intifada, a historical, analytical article on issues that tend to be left out of the problematic, such as Labour (left-wing) Zionism, the role of palestinians not only as exploited workers in Israel but as an actual proletarian subject, and even the bizarre phenomenon of the Israel Black Panthers!

The article basically and unsurprisingly states that relevant sectors of the population of both Israel and Palestine are not represented by their representatives, be they the Knesset or the P.L.O.

Also detailed exellently are the struggles between Hamas and the P.L.O.

Everything footnoted and lovely. I love this mag. You should all read it.
 
 
BioDynamo
14:40 / 24.03.04

Oh yeah, it offers some class-based solutions, too. Not for the faint of heart.
 
 
BioDynamo
14:43 / 24.03.04
"Given cross-class experiences shared by Palestinians of repression by the Israeli authorities, it seems that the nationalist alliance between proletarians and the petit bourgeoisie is stronger than bonds of class solidarity between Palestinian and Jewish workers. Palestinian nationalist attacks increasingly target all manifestations of Israeli domination, notably the settlers themselves, and even civilians in Israel. The physical danger this creates for Jewish workers pushes them to support the Israeli state's security imperatives.


There have been tendencies among both Palestinians and Israelis to resist their incorporation in the opposing state machines and their war logic. But ultimately the development of such tendencies into a social movement that is capable of breaking out of the deadlock of mutually reinforcing nationalisms cannot be found within the bounds of this conflict in isolation. Rather, such a development is bound up with the generalization of proletarian struggles in the Middle East, and crucially, in the West. Depending on the extent of the class resistance it generates, particularly at a time of world recession, 'the war on terrorism' opens up at least the possibility of such a generalization."

Written in 2002. Hmm. Haven't seen very much class resistance against the "war on terrorism" yet...
 
 
sdv (non-human)
17:45 / 24.03.04
Latest issue of NLR has a good and enlightning interview with Benny Morris 'pandora in zion' - very misguided and mistaken, but then he states that he thinks the 'Zionist project is Apoclyptic' which is very bizarre bbecause he should no better...

As E.M.Cioran put it 'the great persecutors are recruited amoung the martyrs not quite beheaded...' In relation to Israel and Palestine it is a commonplace to remind ourselves that NO victory over inhumanity has ever made the world safer for humanity. So when after the horror of the Fascist death camps in the second war - it should not be a surprise that the Isaraelis and fellow travellers welcome and embrace the spectre of inhumanity as it emerges from the shadow of the oh so not unique holocaust.

The geneocide perpetuated by the fascists on the jews during the mid 20th C have enabled their descendents to have a firm and murderous hands. Mass deportations, roundings-up, hostage taking, concentration camps, murder... these are remembered as being simply cost-effective.. They are like the child abuser who turns out to have been abused in term... depressing isn't it - except it's not as depressing as the fellow travellers who vent there hatred for humanity over the spectacle (death to Ms m. phillips... what a fine camp guard at belson she would have made.)
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:32 / 24.03.04
Isn't Sharon just taking advantage of the " window of opportunity " afforded by the upcoming US elections ? Knowing full well that there's no way anyone standing's going to outright condemn any " ani-terri's " measures, never mind risk losing " the Jewish vote, " he must feel around now he can do what he wants. And so he does. Until someone in power in the USA makes it graphically clear that this kind of behaviour from right wing elements in the Israeli government ( and let's not forget that Sharon is a convicted war criminal, never mind, less overtly, but also equally clearly about the worst kind of racist, the type that doesn't just sit there and mouth off in the pub - if there's a country in the world that you wouldn't expect to put up with that style of leadership, then for God's sake, then surely... but, um... apparently not, ) then the UN and so on, worldwide condemnation, these things are a joke.

Essentially, Sharon and his guys have a long-term agenda, they'll watch and they'll wait, but it roughly translates as any time soon they can murder some arabs, you can be damn sure they're going to seize that opportunity, of which this is one.

Anyone who's casually licensed the " tactical necessity " of upwards of something like two thousand ( non-combatant, civilian deaths, that's a conservative estimate, if you look at the records, ) is simply in no position to hold public office.

Which is not to say Hamas and so on are doing the right thing, but these are are fringe groups, marginals, not democratically elected, they don't really have any popular support.

Though they will do shortly, if this carries on, as Sharon pretty clearly knows better than anyone.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
05:34 / 25.03.04
exactly

You cannot fight terrorism like this. Bush is making the same mistake.

All you do is create more extremists and it is like Fantasia....evry time you chop up the broom, you create two more from the pieces

I don't know what the answer is ....I wish I did and then I would put it forward for the world to see. I don't really think post the next US election anything will change either. Successive US presidents have done little to concretely bring about peace in Israel throughout the years. All we have is a number of broken accords and deals that the Israelis and the fringe lunatics on the Palestinian side, never had any intention of adhering to.
I'm glad tha point has been made that Hamas are not in the same league as the PLO as a political entity.

In Northern Ireland, even when the British Government accepted Sinn Fein and the IRA had called a cease fire.....the 'REAL IRA' was a splinter group of disgruntled extremists that still planned and executed terrorist attacks.
Gladly, whilst it slowed the peace process, this did not totally derail it and progress has been made.

I cannot see this happening in Israel because even when Arafat has said he condemns the actions of Hamas....Sharon accuses him of not doing enough.

Now I am not qualified to know whether Arafat has any clout with the extremists in Hamas..........but Sharon does take advantage of any such attack for his own political gain. If the same attitude had been taken in Northern Ireland, there would still be the horrible situation we had in the 1970's and 80's. The Israeli Government and Hamas do not want peace.....the difference is that Hamas have no political leverage.
I am not saying that the Israeli Government should bow to terrorism but possibly if they at least negotiated with teh PLO, then Hamas would lose some of it's support and eventually would dry up as less and less people funded their cause

overly optimistic but still better than the options before us now
 
 
Francine I
22:01 / 25.03.04
Joe,

While I think some of your views on terrorism and it's causes are fairly enlightened, I would still suggest you delve more deeply for the rationale behind the modern American-pseudo-racist. In my estimation, it's equal parts apathy and fear of losing privilege. In this equation, I would resist passionately the assumption that apathy is an automatic. I don't believe it is.

The longer you talk with someone who has rationalized U.S. maneuvers as "cleaning up after the towel heads", the more you get the impression that they care about *something* very deeply indeed -- just not people in general.
 
 
Baz Auckland
23:09 / 25.03.04
US vetoes Security Council resolution condemning Yassin assasination

The veto came after Algeria, the resolution's sponsor, rejected a U.S. demand that the measure also condemn violence by Hamas and other militant groups by name

The 11 Security Council members who voted for the measure were: China, Russia, France, The Philippines, Angola, Chile, Pakistan, Spain, Algeria, Benin and Brazil. Britain, Germany and Romania abstained.

The vetoed resolution condemned Yassin's death and called for a "complete cessation of extrajudicial executions." It also condemned "all terrorist attacks against any civilians as well as all acts of violence and destruction." However, it did not mention any militant groups by name — a traditional U.S. demand.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
05:33 / 26.03.04
Frances....I take your point

I agree about the priviledge thing and can see how that would work


Some though are just idiots, parroting what the media tells them they should believe

Much like myself !!!!!

I mean here I am mouthing off about Israel and my only sources of information are all second hand as I have never ventured further south than France. I do try to vary my news by going to different websites but only recently, I had a weird experience where my Uncle and I had read the same book and gotten VERY different conclusions

He is a conservative supporter of Globalisation and I am more left wing in my views and think Globalisation=exploitation

We read the same book without knowing it and hearing him explain it later, it was as if we were both reading totally seperate books

We made our conclusions fit our own prejudices

I know I am at least partially guilty of doing that over this issue as well. Thanks for you all who have pointed out where I may have gone wrong, it keeps me on my toes
 
 
illmatic
10:53 / 26.03.04
I'd just add I think what you were expressing upthread wasn't so much pathy as disengagemnt brought about through impotence. I think this is something we all feel especially after the way "our" Government has behaved in Iraq
 
 
---
13:16 / 29.03.04
Why has this happened?! I thought that Sharon had said he was pulling troops out of Palestinian areas and then he goes and orders this!?!

Can anyone help me to understand this or is it something that's genuinely difficult to work out? Is it an easy or even more cloudy situation if you decide to research into it?
 
 
---
13:47 / 29.03.04
My own view on this after doing some research is that the Palestinians should stop attacking Isreali targets upon agreement that the Isrealis give them their land back.

Is this niave and wrong or is it right but the chances of this happening are very small?
 
 
Joetheneophyte
17:34 / 29.03.04
I think the problem is this


Sharon and a substatntial number of his governement and Israeli population, believe that any concession is too much

understandable to an extent when the average Israeli is scared that if their kid gets on a bus they may not get off again due to a suicide bomber

The Palestinians are equally frightened and full of hate as per the actions of the IDF and Israeli bulldozers, squashing their homes and increasingly horrible living conditions


it is a no win situation. Politicians on both sides are bound by hatred of the electorate for the other side and worse, the actions of extremists in both camps


there was a peace plan proposed recently by a group fo Israeli and Palestinian activists, that basically would secure what you allege (borders being returned in return for a lasting peace initiative)


Unfortunately , Sharon's Government and the extremists of Hamas et al, were unwilling to consider this and preferred to pretend they were sticking to the US 'roadmap' (effectively derailed) and totally disregard this motion respectively


God help that country



there is unlikely ever to be peace
 
 
bjacques
13:23 / 31.03.04
There is a possibility, when somebody like the US threatens to bang heads together. The last time was, ironically, when Poppy Bush was president. He threatened to cut off aid to Israel unless they stopped building settlements, and it worked for awhile.

First of all, according to the great Stan Lee, with great power comes great responsibility. Israel, as the more powerful, has to make the first move and they can because they have more options. They can stop or dismantle settlements, release prisoners or at least allow family and Red Crescent visits, dismantle the wall or stop building it on Palestinian land.

Palestine has no functioning government; it's got a mafia in nominal charge and a few violent factions over which it has no real control. Arafat's Palestinian authority just settled scores and raked in the cash.

Kick Arafat's ass out and let him go to whichever country will take him. Freeze his Swiss assets and use it to rebuild Palestine. Put it under a UN mandate, but administered mostly by Arab countries until a functioning government and social welfare infrastructure, and then an economy can be built.

Sharon's got to go. He's an old crook who, like Bush, would rather go to war than answer embarrassing questions about conflicts of interest. Likud should dump him.

If anyone starts making one-sided arguments, tell them you thank G*d or Allah everyday this isn't the 1970s or 1980s, when the US and USSR backed opposite sides in the Middle East, nuclear missiles at the ready. If the radicals on ($side) have their way, the whole Middle East goes kaflooey and the rest of us will be entertained and shocked, but we'll live.
 
 
Baz Auckland
19:29 / 17.04.04
From AP: Hamas Leader Killed in Israeli Strike

An Israeli missile strike killed Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi as he rode in his car Saturday evening, hospital officials said. Rantisi's son Mohammed and a bodyguard were also killed in the attack

The militant Hamas leader was one of Israel's top targets after it assassinated Hamas founder Sheik Ahmed Yassin in an airstrike last month.

Rantisi's car was hit with missiles Saturday evening on the road outside his home, leaving only the burned, destroyed vehicle. After the explosion, Israeli helicopters were heard in the area.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:55 / 18.04.04
Oh shit.
 
 
pachinko droog
15:50 / 18.04.04
As if the Shiites in Iraq weren't already hopping mad. The long hot summer predicted for US troops seems to coming a little early, and that worries me. Why is this scenario in Iraq and Palestine starting to feel, for lack of a better word, "scripted"? As if we and the Israelis are deliberately trying to make things worse overall for ourselves...I wonder....
 
 
Ray Fawkes
03:41 / 19.04.04
meanwhile, I'm noticing that the loudly proclaimed wave of vengeance has yet to materialize. If Hamas never really manages to strike back for all this, does that mean that Israel's methodology is a success?
 
 
Jamie Gorelick
11:51 / 19.04.04
I think October Ghost may be on to something. If Isreal continues to decapitate Hamas it will be hard for them to organize the "wave of Violance".


On a side note. It is discouraging to see John Kerry, the Democratic presidential hopefull, announce that he would continue the Bush policies regarding Isreal. This was said on Meet the Press this past Sunday.
 
  

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