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Israel assassinates Hamas leader

  
  

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Tryphena Absent
14:44 / 22.03.04
As reported in The Guardian and on The BBC website.

The action has been condemned by Kofi Annan.

This just seems like an insane action.
 
 
Lurid Archive
14:52 / 22.03.04
Well, yes and no. If you want to combat terrorism, it is pretty hopeless. One might argue that it is an action driven by...desperation, to put it kindly.

Far more likely, in my view, is that it is designed to do precisely what it will do - provoke Palestinian retaliation. In turn, this will be used to justify Israeli actions, which must be useful at the moment, given the controversy of the security fence.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:59 / 22.03.04
"They have opened the gates of hell," he warned.

Damn right. This is fucked. I'm with Lurid- Sharon's not stupid. He KNOWS what this means. And it ain't pretty.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:04 / 22.03.04
That's not what makes it insane though or rather what I mean is Sharon's insane. The man consistently toys with the lives of the people he's in charge with and this really just... I'm groaning.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:31 / 22.03.04
His actions since the mosque visit have been to try and provoke the Palestinians to fight. I wonder if he's hoping he can make them do something so outrageous and 9/11-tastic that will 'force' the US to come and fight directly for the Israelis.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:34 / 22.03.04
Which is not to deny that this Saruman lookalike was not a nice person. But Sharon's personal position is weaker the closer the two sides are to peace. Perhaps moreso than the US, Israel needs a strong left-wing opposition to bring Sharon down.
 
 
Mirror
17:24 / 22.03.04
Perhaps if the U.S. had sufficiently left-wing leadership that we could quit wasting our time propping up Israel, it would force the Israelis to reconsider whether they couldn't maybe come to an amicable agreement with the Palestinians.

I'm so disgusted by the Israelis' treatment of the Palestinians that I can't begin to express it properly. You'd think that a minority culture that had been subject to such persecution over the years would be a little more understanding of the plight of these people who've had their lands and livelihoods blatantly stolen.
 
 
Loomis
17:48 / 22.03.04
He does look like Saruman doesn't he? I hadn't noticed that earlier.

Even if it is justified to assasinate him, is it justifiable to do it with MISSILES? Killing 7 and wounding 17 in the process? It definitely looks deliberately over the top in order to invite a reaction.
 
 
Lurid Archive
18:13 / 22.03.04
Well, arguably a missile attack is the only way they have to assasinate (or bring to justice, depending on your ideology) someone like the leader of Hamas. Of course, the fact that more people die as a result of "collateral damage" in Israeli actions than in Palestinian indisciminate attacks should give one pause for thought.
 
 
Joetheneophyte
18:24 / 22.03.04
I by my own admission am a terrible conspiracy theorist but I have read enough semi credible sources (if I can find the links I will post)
stating that the Israeli intelligence services actually fund Hamas to an extent.

I know this sounds totally crazy and ridiculous to even contemplate but the reasons given are as follows:

the PLO led by Arafat were gaining too much popularity and had a potentially viable stance about getting political rights for Palestinians. The more lunatic fringe of the Palestinian youth were encouraged or funded to form their own groups such as Hamas and the Martyrs Brigade, to basically split support and make negotiations impossible. With each more extreme action by these groups, the Israeli Government could claim that Palestinians were not interested in peace. The Pro Zionist American media would tell in gory detail the horrors (and they are horrors) of suicide bombings. The fact that nearly 3 times as many Palestinians as Israelis have been killed over the last couple of years is hardly reported or only in small print.

All death is terrible and whilst my sympathy is with the Palestinians as the Underdogs in this situation, all murder is disgusting to me.

Regarding Mossad and the other Israeli intelligence services allegedly funding and supporting Hamas........I am not saying this is correct (nor do I know, just personally suspect that this is true)

(although it is funny that Mossad's alleged motto is
"by way of deception, thou shalt make war"............how apt?)

The British Government were equally corrupt in Northern Ireland, playing one side off against the other and often channelling money to various nefarious causes resulting in innocent deaths.

Regarding Sharron and his 'concern' for Israeli life:

By the Israeli actions today, it seems to prove that not only does Sharron have little time for negotiations but he cannot care for Israeli lives or welfare. The expected and obvious 'tit for tat' killings will undoubtedly take totally innocent Jewish lives
and the whole cycle of death and destruction will continue.


Sharron can then play the martyr and the wall will continue to be built

How could todays actions produce ANYTHING but more bloodshed for Israeli and Palestinians alike

Allah/ Jehovah/ God

How could you let your flock be so fucking stupid?
 
 
Simplist
23:30 / 22.03.04
Everyone's acting like this is some sudden surprise, but IIRC the Israelis have been trying unsuccessfully to kill Yassin for years. The well-publicized incident several months back where the Israeli army fired missiles into a residential apartment building was an attempt on Yassin, if I'm not mistaken.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
23:40 / 22.03.04
Let's face it, this is a totally hopeless situation. For the forseeable future, each side's going to see itself as the underdog, the Israelis because they're " surrounded by hostile countries, " the Palestinians because " America's on Israel's side. " Unless one or side or the other's prepared to admit it's in a position of strength, and so in some sense entitled to open serious negotiations, without losing face, then this is going to go on, and on.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
02:38 / 23.03.04
Does the threat of retaliation carry any weight at all when the organization delivering it is already responsible for dozens of apparently random attacks on civilian targets? How are we supposed to differentiate between their violence as motivated by revenge and their violence as motivated by political fanaticism?
 
 
Oresa delta 20
03:59 / 23.03.04
I remember the days when assassinations were much less extravagant affairs, carried out with a sniper rifle from half a mile away, or perhaps a car bomb at most. The Israelis launched a $1.2m anti-tank missile at an old man in a wheelchair. That pisses me off, but what pisses me off a hell of a lot more, is that two weeks from now, when Israeli tanks are rolling into yet another palestinian settlement to fire indiscriminately in retribution for the suicide bombings that we're sure to witness in the very near future, everybody will have forgotten that they vapourised a paralysed sextagenarian in a wheelchair. They really are just taking the piss with this bollocks.
 
 
Oresa delta 20
07:15 / 23.03.04
Just caught the morning BBC news. Apparently, after being condemned by the governments of many western nations, and in the wake of protests by some of the Israeli people, Ariel Sharon has publicly announced that he doesn't give a shit (paraphrasing) and that his forces will continue to assassinate prominent Palestinian leaders (not paraphrasing at all). In addition to this, he also claimed that the missile strike yesterday was an act of 'self-defence'. Well, i'm convinced: I know those wheelchair-bound pensioners can be a real hazard to military helicopters....
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
10:24 / 23.03.04
This may be a snap judgment which I may retract in a few hours, so don't hang me for it- Sharon not only knows what he's doing, but his very cognisance of this means that he doesn't actually give two shits for the Israeli people either. To provoke the inevitable response (I hate to use the word "inevitable", but let's face it, it just is)... what's the arithmetic on that? If x number of my people get blown up, then it'll be worth it so that we can send y amount of troops in with justification? Tell it to the dead on both sides, Ariel, mate.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:48 / 23.03.04
Well, I think the calculation being made is that of establishing an extremely secure greater Israel, which controls most of the local resources, leaving room for settlers and, possibly, a compliant and impoverished Palestinian workforce.

Certainly, there is a view that acts of this kind are a necessary evil - see Benny Morris.

You've gotta break some eggs...
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:12 / 23.03.04
Well yeah, but what I'm saying is, try explaining to the eggs how fucking wicked your omelette's gonna be.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:56 / 23.03.04
To put it basically- sounds like Benny Morris needs to shoot himself in the face. Do you have a link so I can judge him accurately?
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:28 / 23.03.04
Its only marginally relevant, but I remember reading a Benny Morris interview where he was discussing the creation of the state of Israel and his book on the subject. He conceded that although ethnic cleansing, rape and massacre of Palestinians had taken place, one had to make difficult choices. This was in Haaretz, but the link I have doesn't seem to be working.

After some googling, I've got this, which seems to be the same interview.

Some quotes,

"There is no justification for acts of rape. There is no justification for acts of massacre. Those are war crimes. But in certain conditions, expulsion is not a war crime. I don't think that the expulsions of 1948 were war crimes. You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. You have to dirty your hands."


"There are circumstances in history that justify ethnic cleansing. I know that this term is completely negative in the discourse of the 21st century, but when the choice is between ethnic cleansing and genocide - the annihilation of your people - I prefer ethnic cleansing."


"I feel sympathy for the Palestinian people, which truly underwent a hard tragedy. I feel sympathy for the refugees themselves. But if the desire to establish a Jewish state here is legitimate, there was no other choice."


"But I am not a statesman. I do not put myself in [Ben Gurion's] place. But as an historian, I assert that a mistake was made here. Yes. The non-completion of the transfer was a mistake."
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
12:33 / 23.03.04
Certainly, there is a view that acts of this kind are a necessary evil

Yep. Sharon's inclination has always been to a militaristic view, in which your own casualities are an unfortunate neccessity,

Well, i'm convinced: I know those wheelchair-bound pensioners can be a real hazard to military helicopters....

Well, it's a show of force, isn't it, perhaps to pave the way for honourable withdrawal, as opposed to what Sharon sees as the 'disgraceful' Israeli 'surrender' of the Lebanon.

And to be honest, all this 'frail old man' business, (it's been all over the media) is bollocks. I'm in no way an Isreali apologist, but Yassin was one of the powers behind Hamas, who are unapologetic about their dseire to eradicate Israel. We're not talking about a harmless Chelsea pensioner here.

IMO, Sharon's got what he wanted all along. As have Hamas. And peace is nowhere.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
12:36 / 23.03.04
Off-topic a little, but Lurid: yes, that's the same interview, it's archived at a few sites. A terrifying insight into a kind of pathology that unfortunately appears quite widespread amongst supposedly left-wing, liberal supporters of Zionism.

"Even though we are oppressing the Palestinians, we are the weaker side here."

...But of course. Doublethink in action.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
13:32 / 23.03.04
The Guardian's reading of the situation is that Sharon did this because Hamas were boasting they'd driven the Israelis out after he announced that withdrawl a short while back. It was a 'we're CHOOSING to leave, we're not being driven out' gesture.
 
 
grant
13:57 / 23.03.04
A friend pointed me towards this thread, with what I believe are pictures of Yassin's autopsy. The forum is all in Arabic, so I can't be sure.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
15:48 / 23.03.04
That's just great, grant, thanks a lot for that. I shouldn't have clicked, but, hey - I clicked.

Perhaps a SPOILERS warning (as in, your evening meal).

The Israeli ambassador to Washington was phenomenal on Newsnight last night...describing it as a 'moral killing' when challenged by Jezza Paxman.

Moral killing? That surely ranks up there with Military Intelligence for oxymoron of the month?
 
 
pachinko droog
16:57 / 23.03.04
Not only does this worsen things considerably in the occupied territories, but now Shiite clerics and their followers have taken to the streets of Iraq in protest and have pledged support to the Palestinian Hamas cause.

The support of the majority Iraqi Shiites are essential to US hegemonic goals. But now that support is fast dissapearing. I fear we could very well find Iraq a much deadlier place this spring and summer, perhaps even necessitating a troop buildup. The repercussions of Yassin's assassination are going to be enormous.
 
 
Simplist
17:47 / 23.03.04
Sharon not only knows what he's doing, but his very cognisance of this means that he doesn't actually give two shits for the Israeli people either.

I dunno, my hit is that Sharon genuinely believes that any sort of negotiated solution is tantamount to eventual suicide on the part of the Israeli state, and is therefore more than willing to provoke massacres of Israeli civilians in the short term in order to advance his longer-term agenda, namely the creation of a walled-in, ultramilitarized Israel, in his mind the only version of the Jewish state that's ultimately viable.
 
 
Simplist
18:31 / 23.03.04
Uh-oh. According to Israeli army chief Lt. Gen. Moshe Yaalon, Arafat may be next. Not that it hasn't been threatened before, but in the current climate Sharon might be more likely to actually go through with it. Now THAT would be a provocation...
 
 
Baz Auckland
19:16 / 23.03.04
...he's 75! Just make him live a few more months locked in his compound without heat and electricity and I'm sure old age will simply take care of him....
 
 
Joetheneophyte
05:45 / 24.03.04
Scott Ian from Anthrax ws once in a band called "Stormtroopers of Death" (TERRIBLE GROUP/SHIT MUSIC)


NOT my cup of tea at all and their songs were in poor taste but one of their little ditties, did make me laugh and is quite apt now:

it was called "fuck the middle east"


Let's be honest........we all hate mindless death and can see where this is going and how it will impact on all of us but the sentiments of that song are now starting to ring true.

As has been stated here before, US and British (is there anybody else left?) troops in Iraq will suffer if the Shia rise up against them

There will undoubtedly be more terrorist attacks in Europe and the US as a result of

1: our support of Israel

2: the occupation of Iraq

3: the resultant martyrdom of Osama and his ilk (we just know that Bush is going to wheel him out before the next election......it's a sure thing)


Bush's policy has been short term solution for long term problems and driven by greed and vengance (and by a pro Zionist lobby in Washington)

As time goes on, I get more and more distressed at the situation but like most humans, this distress can only mount for so long before apathy sets in. Whether this be a coping mechanism or whatever, I do not know but I keep thinking about that song and wondering whether the world would be worse off if a fucking big asteroid crashed into Israel/Palestine and took them all out....Arab and Jew alike.

i KNOW THERE ARE OTHER TROUBLE SPOTS IN THE WORLD but none are covered in such depth or have seemingly NO possibility of resolution like the Israel/Palestine issue

If some accident were to befall this area it would be a tragedy yes but in the long run the world might be a more peaceful place as a result.


I DO NO REALLY WANT THIS TO HAPPEN BUT THE FACT THAT I AM THINKING IT SHOWS JUST HOW PISSED OFF I AM HEARING ALL THESE HORROR STORIES ABOUT THAT FUCKED UP PIECE OF LAND AND THE STUPID HATEFUL PEOPLE WHO INHABIT IT
 
 
Joetheneophyte
06:22 / 24.03.04
Aaaaaah sorry

I don't really want that to happen but I am tired of the whole hatred and retribution nonsense and worse, I am sure the Neo Cons and Arab fundamentalists will drag us all down with them

Wolfowitz and his ilk plus the Zionist lobby in Washington will ensure America will back Israel no matter what or how it acts (NO MATTER WHO WINS THE NEXT ELECTION)

Our actions in Iraq will have created another hundred thousand potential Bin Ladens.....all with nothing to look forward to but their 72 virgins in Heaven. Suicide bombings will occurr in Europe and America just as they now do in Israel.

Sharron and his murderous Government will have ultimately won because they will have a never ending supply of US/European youth laying down their lives to police the middle east and keeping Israel's enemies in check.

Cheney, Bush and their ilk will grow older and richer as they usurp more and more of the worlds' resources and via dodgy business deals.

it all makes me sick and I am sorry for the negativity but I just cannot see any way that this situation will improve


not without the asteroid ;-)
 
 
Francine I
06:27 / 24.03.04
"If some accident were to befall this area it would be a tragedy yes but in the long run the world might be a more peaceful place as a result."

I guess on a literal and detached level it seems like any disaster which might befall the "Middle East" ( though I wonder if you're mostly referring to places where Arabs live and there is conflict? ) would have a considerable and unfortunate impact on humanity. It would do vast damage to cultural diversity, in a way that I think most of us who have been somehow indoctrinated in this place some people call "the West" are disadvantaged to appreciate. It could also cause an immediate migration from fossil fuels. We cannot efficiently deliver such goods, not living over such vast and relatively available repositories. The resulting unrest, counting for economic and social ramifications, would probably be extreme.

On a human level, to be totally honest, that just really pisses me off. Those are people, for fuck's sake. How is apathy a natural reaction? Are you being serious?
 
 
Joetheneophyte
07:21 / 24.03.04
Yes I am (to a point)

when faced with and yet detatched from horror, I believe that we become hardened to the plight and ultimately, lose interest.
As evidence (not ideal as some fo this example is only fiction) think about how horror movies and news reports have grown more and more sensationalist.
Each Hollywood blockbuster has to have more blood and explosions as we become deadened to the horrible scenes in each movie and each news report has to be more sensational to keep the masses entertained.

We are so conditioned by violence and over exposed to scenes that are horrific that I believe a coping mechanism is that we switch off and this is made easier when we are thousands of miles away.

After 9/11 how many US citizens really gave a fuck about the poor innocent goatherds blown to fuck in Afghanistan from a BF52 thousands of miles up? Not many. I have frequented message boards where numeroous US citizens have said things to the effect of "towel headed camel fucking rag heads" and laughed about human death

It is easy to become detached when it is happening thousands of miles away. If we were to witness the horror first hand we would obviously be traumatised but when faced with TV and relentless images, each more horrific but happening thousands of miles away, it is easy to reach for the remote and think "fuck them"

I never thought I would say it but I am getting close to that point over the middle east (Israel/Palestine)

Sitting here safe and cosy, it is easy to reach saturation point and think "fuck them"

thirty plus years of war after war and escalating bloodshed and for what? a piece of piss poor land fought over by extremist nutters

One side claims that a burning bush promised them the land two and a half thousand years ago and the other side thinks that getting on a bus and blowing up the other passengers will get them to heaven!


I did say in my last post that I did NOT really want this to happen.
I did qualify my point with that......I suggested the asteroid as the ONLY viable solution in this terrible quagmire that I could see.

I do believe that the problems of the middle east will ultimately drag us all down with them and my point was more of a question, ergo "would it be beneficial to sacrifice the limb for the health of the whole organism?"

it was pure conjecture and qualified with my proviso that I did not want it to happen.

With no political solution, an American establishment terrified to intervene in case they lose the Jewish vote and escalating violence that threatens to spread to the rest of the globe.....my question was meant as pure specualtion but with each day that passes, I just cannot see any way for this to improve


NO I do NOT want inncoent people to die but I cannot see a solution to this terrible situation. The hatred is indoctrinated from birth and multi generational. My point about the asteroid was that if divine intervention chose to wipe out the region, then feasibly the world would ultimately/potentially be more peaceful. I know about the natural resources and how the world would suffer.....I do not really want an asteroid to hit......it was all just idle speculation about a situation that I feel helpless about and that the rest of the world chooses to ignore owing to the financial clout of the zionist supporters
 
 
Joetheneophyte
07:58 / 24.03.04
that should have read a B52 thousands of feet up NOT miles

Anyway, I hope I conveyed my true meaning in that last post

I do not want anybody to die but the current middle east situation is so bad that I cannot see any way out of it and worse, the geo-political and natural resource situation COUPLED with the double edged sword of Zionist intransigence and Islamic Fundamentilst nonsense......makes me think that for numerous reasons, the rest of the globe is going to be sucked in

The myth of poor little Israel being surrounded by hostile neighbours is not something I subscribe to. Estimates are that they are about the fifth largest nuclear power in the world and I dread what they are capable of or worse pushed to if this situation escalates due to recent events


I can see this leading to at least a limited nuclear exchange and whilst both sides are so hateful, peaceful negotiations are impossible
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:45 / 24.03.04
Yeah, but... while not wishing to add to the derailment of this thread, I have to ask... If I was God. Whichever God. And I gave you the choice RIGHT NOW to wipe the region out just like that... would you do it?

I don't think so. I certainly hope not. I understand your frustration, but really, at best, that kind of thinking is the ultimate in defeatism. At worst, it's the ultimate in selfishness- back to the omelette thing, only in this case you'd rather they chucked the eggs out than bothered to learn how to make one.

This isn't a situation that can just be ignored/wished away. It's what's happening NOW, and has to be dealt with as such.

A few years back Northern Ireland seemed just as insoluble. And while that's still not perfect by any means, look how far it's come- to a state that would be unthinkable to a time traveller from the 70s.

And yes, I do agree that there is always the risk of horrible nuclear death for, like, EVERYONE... I don't agree that guaranteeing death for some is worth it to remove a risk we're just gonna have to work hard to mitigate against.
 
  

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