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Good news for terrorists? (Spanish Election Results)

 
  

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SMS
22:11 / 14.03.04
A poll conducted one day before the terrorist bombings in Madrid predicted the ruling popular party would win 182 seats in parliament. With 95% of the votes in, the socialists have 43% of the vote, and the ruling popular party only 37%, giving them only 148 seats.

What message does this send to terrorist organizations, particularly Al Qaeda?

And what of the organization that conducted the attacks in Madrid (we don’t know who it was, yet)? Are they likely to take this as a gesture of good will from the Spanish people and stop attacks (at least in Spain) or will they grow more bold in their efforts? Will they view this as a success for them, and, if so, will this success help their recruiting efforts? Could it hurt recruiting efforts?

Will it help, hurt, or have no effect on other terrorist organizations?
 
 
sleazenation
22:30 / 14.03.04
I honestly don't know - as i said in the thread on the Spanish terrorist attack the old curse rings true - we do live in interesting times.

This election victory poses many difficult questions for the incoming Spanish government. The have vowed to 'fight all forms of terrorism'. Will this mean continued Spanish support for the US lead coalition? If not, doesn't it hand a great victory to Al Queda (regardless of whether or not they were responsible)?

Is it even clear what the surge of public support for the socialists even means?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
23:05 / 14.03.04
Apparently the majority were already opposed to the war in Iraq... Anyone know what the polls were like BEFORE the bombings? I know Aznar seemed a cert, but by how much?
 
 
Baz Auckland
01:32 / 15.03.04
AP story here...

Before the attacks, polls had given the governing party a lead of 3-5 percentage points.
 
 
Turk
03:36 / 15.03.04
Well of course opposing the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan does not mean you're favourable of terrorists. I suppose Al Qaeda could take the view that such a position would be enough to warrant no further attacks, otherwise they'd be bombing virtually every nation on the planet.

If something similar happens in Britain I wonder what the voter reaction would be. I imagine the Labour government are probably working on how best to ultilise support from it, because if there is anything to be learnt from the Madrid bombing, it is for governments to learn how to survive the political outfall.
It's weird territory though. Did voting out a government, albeit one that employed repugnant policies that marked Spain out for such an attack, give a victory to terrorist action, and if so, would it have been better to have retained the government?
This weekend the loud and clear message to Al Qaeda has been they can be successful if only they kill enough people.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:10 / 15.03.04
I think the terrorists will see this as a victory, yes. Though it should be noted that the faultline here is a democratic deficit with regards to the war in Iraq. Had the Spainish people been for the war, this attack would not have favoured an antiwar party. And now that the Socialists are in power, further attacks are likely to make the Spanish more belligerent.

Also, it is worth noting that the swing against the PP was partly because of the perception that they were playing politics with the Madrid bombings.

Thing is, one could also argue that one goal of Al Qaeda is to undermine western society and civil liberties. In which case, electing increasingly hard line parties plays into their hands. *shrug*

Second guessing the terrorists in this way isn't worth it, if you ask me.
 
 
sleazenation
10:00 / 15.03.04
'Spanish troops to withdraw from Iraq'.
 
 
diz
14:31 / 15.03.04
it's definitely a victory for the terrorists, yes, but it's also a victory for the rest of us. the voters did the right thing: they laid the blame for terrorism squarely on the people who make foreign policy decisions, which is where it belongs.

terrorism is a symptom, a reaction. it's like weather. you don't - can't, really - fight terrorism directly. that's the whole point of terrorist methodology. all you can do is work to stop provoking it. the Spanish voters recognized that, and acted accordingly. it's the triumph of reason over the irrational retaliatory mentality. i think that's worth celebrating.
 
 
HCE
15:05 / 15.03.04
it's like weather. you don't - can't, really - fight terrorism directly.

Well put.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:28 / 15.03.04
Many people over the last few months have told me that the people who plant bombs couldn't give a shit whether we demonstrate partly for their cause. Why then would you assume that those same terrorists recognise any victory or loss in this election?

The war against terror is repugnant, it's nonsense, it's a soundbite with no meaning and the Spanish public aren't supporting it. They may not realise that they aren't but that's rather past the issue. I wish we had that option in Britain but there is no party that could plausibly win that would pull troops out of Iraq and if there was our public wouldn't vote for it.
 
 
SMS
18:46 / 15.03.04
They laid the blame for terrorism squarely on the people who make foreign policy decisions, which is where it belongs.

I know that the government is supposed to protect its citizens, but surely it doesn't deserve the blame for these terrorist attacks. The blame ought to fall on the organizations who carried these out.

terrorism is a symptom, a reaction. it's like weather. you don't - can't, really - fight terrorism directly

The difference is that terrorism is carried out by individuals (people) with a will. They chose to attack Madrid. And people respond to incentives in predictable ways. Changing to a policy that accomodates them acts as a reward to them in ways that, say, changing policy to prevent climate change does not. If we were to stop pumping greenhouse gases into the air, the earth would not recognize that it is able to dictate policy. People, terrorist or otherwise, can recognize this.

It is because they are people, and not simply mindless forces of nature, that I believe they could recognize this as a success. I can't believe they don't care if we demonstrate for their cause, either.
 
 
diz
20:00 / 15.03.04
I know that the government is supposed to protect its citizens, but surely it doesn't deserve the blame for these terrorist attacks. The blame ought to fall on the organizations who carried these out.

no, it shouldn't, or at least not solely. if you plan to do something which anyone with half a brain could have told you (and, in fact, did tell you) would provoke a terrorist response, and then you do it anyway despite overwhelming opposition, you are responsible for the consequences. sow the wind, reap the whirlwind, and such.

The difference is that terrorism is carried out by individuals (people) with a will. They chose to attack Madrid.

you're focused to inappropriate and unrealistic degrees on individual choice and free will. simply put, while you could try to argue that in some highly abstract theoretical sense individual people "chose" to attack Madrid, in actual practice, those choices were predictable. it's like any other kind of crime: put in (set of social and economic conditions) X you will get crime rate roughly in the vicinity of Y. it's statistically predictable, and given that X produces Y, who really honestly cares who the individuals are who "chose" to commit the crimes and what their decision making process was? you knew that under certain conditions, a certain percentage of the population is going to commit a crime. if conditions were different, different percentages of people would choose to commit or not commit a crime.

let's say you have an ice cream store. each customer, theoretically, can choose any flavor they want. however, over time, you can reasonably say that out of 100 ice cream store patrons, roughly (and i'm pulling a number out of my ass here) 20 are going to order vanilla. yes, theoretically, they could all choose to order something other than vanilla, but we know that that's not actually going to happen, so we make sure we stock enough vanilla to accomodate those people. could any one of those 20 order something else? maybe, but they probably won't in practice. does this mean that their choice was predestined? is free will an illusion? does it even matter? just stock enough vanilla, or you don't get to bitch when you run out.

people in general have to ditch all this 18th century baggage about the sovereign individual making rational decisions, take a step back and start looking at human interactions as teh results of systems rather than the results of individual decisions. are statistical models and predictions off sometimes? sure. but really, most of the time, given enough data, they're the most useful tools we have. humans are meat blobs with binary computers in their heads, a series of on and off switches, and under certain circumstances certain decisions are going to be made regardless of who specifically ends up making those decisions just as surely as a coin flip is going to come up heads roughly half the time.

basically, foreign policy makers and world leaders and diplomats and governments and such, collectively make social systems that will produce terrorists as a by-product. if you create a niche for a terrorist, some angry young person will move into it. if the particular people who bombed Madrid didn't "choose" to become terrorists, someone else would have.

thus, if you want to stop terrorism, stop producing niches for terrorists. if you could do so, and you don't, then you bear a higher degree of responsibility than people who have little or no input in the political process (which, incidentally, causes a certain number of them to choose terrorism).

And people respond to incentives in predictable ways.

people respond to everything in predictable ways. that's my point.

Changing to a policy that accomodates them acts as a reward to them in ways that, say, changing policy to prevent climate change does not. If we were to stop pumping greenhouse gases into the air, the earth would not recognize that it is able to dictate policy. People, terrorist or otherwise, can recognize this.

it doesn't matter. it's not about punishing the guilty or rewarding the innocent. it's not about negotiation or justice or what-have-you. every political system you set up, every diplomatic position taken, every economic policy, should be expected to produce a certain amount of terrorism as a by-product. if you want less terrorism, change the rules the system is operating by so that it produces different results. terrorism is one variable in a complex equation. change the others, and it will change with it.

It is because they are people, and not simply mindless forces of nature,

i don't accept the distinction you're making. people, when looked at one a large scale (the scale of societies, nations, etc) behave no differently than any other system. the mindless/not-mindless distinction you're making doesn't hold up with actual behavior.
 
 
cusm
21:59 / 15.03.04
What message does this send to terrorist organizations,

That polls are bullshit, more a tool to sway public opinion than collect data on it?
 
 
SMS
01:30 / 16.03.04
On the one hand, you and I have different political views. We disagree about the best policies for the government to protect us from enemies.

If that’s all that matters, then the election in Spain is really no different than any other election. If the socialists are right, it’s a victory for the Spanish people; if the conservatives are right, it’s a defeat for the Spanish people.

But we disagree about something else. The wisdom of Spain’s support in the Iraq war (at the beginning) does not change over time. If they made the wrong decision, then a miraculous success does not change the fact that it was the wrong decision, given what they knew. Ninety percent of Spaniards opposed the war, but they still weren’t going to oust their leader over it. Now, an organization hostile to those people appears to have been the immediate cause of their changing their votes. It appears this organization has affected a major foreign policy shift by threatening people.

If cusm is right, and the polls were lousy indicators of public opinion anyway, then the appearance is just appearance. But this appearance can, by itself, prove dangerous. I think enough people have some faith in polls that it is safe to assume the terrorists and their potential recruits, by and large, also have some faith in polls.

the mindless/not-mindless distinction you're making doesn't hold up with actual behavior.

I agree that, on a large scale, we can treat groups of people as we can treat any other phenomena, but we cannot treat them as equivalent to any other phenomena. The fact that groups are made of individuals with minds, means they (the groups) have what are effectively collective desires. Desire can do funny things to a system. For instance, it is possible that Spain would not have been attacked if it had taken the French position on the war, but then, that Spain’s retreat from Iraq, far from reducing attacks by removing the cause, could increase attacks (there or elsewhere) by feeding the hostile organization’s desire. Now, this wouldn't be true if all one could do to fight terrorism was to stop provoking it, but this supposes that provocation is the sole cause of terrorism, which, given the natural desire for power in the human heart, simply cannot be true.
 
 
Ray Fawkes
02:31 / 16.03.04
given that X produces Y, who really honestly cares who the individuals are who "chose" to commit the crimes and what their decision making process was?

This statement debases the individuals you're talking about, essentially saying that they don't have the capacity to be non-violent. Do you think you have the will to control your actions? If you do, what makes anyone else different? Are you saying that anybody who lashes out at an unsuspecting victim should be allowed to claim innocence by way of inevitability? "I blame society"?
 
 
sleazenation
06:27 / 16.03.04
SMatthewStolte

I think you are leaping to a few conclusions about why the Spanish people tossed the government out of power. I've heard theories form political comentators of all stripes and nationalities that range from the Spanish people feeling they were being lied to by Aznar when he seemed to leap all to readily to the conclusion that ETA was behind the blast (some even suspect Aznar had a political motive to portray this as the work of ETA) to a higher turnout (the product of an upsurge in the notion of democratic duty in the face of terrorist coersion) inevitablely leading to a greater proportion of the vote going to the left- (the left traditionally being the side the suffers most when turn outs are low). As far as I'm aware the jury is still out on that one.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
06:55 / 16.03.04
to a higher turnout (the product of an upsurge in the notion of demopcratic duty in the face of terrorist coersion) inevitablely leading to a greater proportioon of the vote going to the left- (the left traditionally being the side the suffers most when turn outs are low)

Oh, the irony. A display by a population that it will not let democracy be threatened by terrorism has led to the exact opposite result the most vocal players in TWAT desired. Sorry, Tone, Georgie-boy, you want democracy- you got it.
 
 
diz
09:35 / 16.03.04
The fact that groups are made of individuals with minds, means they (the groups) have what are effectively collective desires. Desire can do funny things to a system.

not really, no, it can't. the fact that the group is made up of individuals we normally ascribe some sort of intelligence to really doesn't change its behavior in any noticeable way. human desires don't look any different in terms of behavior than air's "desire" to move from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure or the "desires" of individual ants to follow the pheromone trails left by other members of their colony. human intelligence and desire is really just not very unique, special, or unpredictable.

Now, this wouldn't be true if all one could do to fight terrorism was to stop provoking it, but this supposes that provocation is the sole cause of terrorism, which, given the natural desire for power in the human heart, simply cannot be true.

yes, it can. terrorism is primarily a defensive strategy, not an offensive one. it necessarily comes from a position of real or perceived weakness or helplessness. it's not something you do to conquer, it's something you do to liberate (at least in your own mind). as such, i do believe that the sole cause of terrorism is provocation. stop the provocation, and you stop terrorism.

which is not to say that you would or could ever necessarily convince the hardcore terrorists to come in from the cold, so to speak. i think once you get to the point of voluntarily living in a cave in Afghanistan you're sort of beyond reintegration into the mainstream. however, that hardcore element floats on a sea of the goodwill of ordinary people, who fund them, shelter them, and quietly choose not to cooperate when investigators come looking for them, and which serve as an essentially bottomless recruitment pool. if you stop the provocative acts which cause terrorism, you can start the long, slow work of winning back the trust and sympathy of those ordinary people who hate you (generally, for good reason), which dries up the support that the terrorists need to function effectively and stops opening new niches for replacement terrorists.

This statement debases the individuals you're talking about, essentially saying that they don't have the capacity to be non-violent.

it's only debasing if you have some weird ideas about human dignity and some kind of human special-ness, and those things being rooted in free will and all that. those are exactly the kinds of 18th C. ideas i was talking about people needing to move past.

Do you think you have the will to control your actions?

of course not. at least, not in the way that you're framing it. you're sort of framing it as if there's an individual "me" which pre-exists society and is then forced to do things by social and political trends. however, there is no "me" outside of social construction to be "forced" to do anything. i move when society moves because i'm just a single iteration of the process that is society.

Are you saying that anybody who lashes out at an unsuspecting victim should be allowed to claim innocence by way of inevitability? "I blame society"?

"should" according to whom? allowed by whom? this is all very loaded with the concept of "justicce," but there's no such thing as "justice," except insofar as we mutually agree to use the concept of "justice" together becuase in so doing we acheive some practical end.

your whole quesion is predicated on the idea that we are compelled somehow to punish wrongdoing for its own sake, but we're not. we should only punish when it's useful to punish, when doing so would make the public safer (which, generally, would be better accomplished by directing the same resources towards addressing the root causes of the crime) or would reduce the chance of recidivism. beyond that, i couldn't care less what someone "gets away with" or whether or not they "get what they deserve."

Sorry, Tone, Georgie-boy, you want democracy- you got it.

this reminds me of the situation in Turkey on the eve of the war. people were so used to dealing with Turkey as essentially being a military dictatorship that they were floored when the Turkish Parliament actually went against the will of the generals and wouldn't allow US troops through. the same point about wanting democracy in the Middle East applies there, i think.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:05 / 16.03.04
dizfactor: I think you are overstating your point and I think you know it. The idea that we are pefectly free individuals, uninfluenced by others, has surely been debunked. And determinism is certainly tenable. But that doesn't mean it is indisputable, far from it. Even if we accept determinism, this is a long way from predictability. In fact, it is pretty clear (via chaos theory, if you want, though I think it is rather clearer than that) that any deterministic system is unpredictable in many ways, the more complex it gets the harder to predict. And so consequentialist theories of punishment, for instance, are seriously flawed.

I think this is all apparent from that fact that explanations tend to be post hoc. At best, this is good evidence that people do things for a reason, and subject to societal forces. At worst, one presents a series of just so stories that confirm one's ideology. There are enough examples of the latter to cast serious doubt on the former.

One can make broad and crude predictions, of course, with varying degrees of accuracy. This is hardly the basis for political decision, though it should doubtless inform it.

SMS: I think sleaze and stoatie have said what I wanted to say, though I thought I would reiterate. One, quite plausible, cause for the PSOE win in Spain is the higher voter turnout. If we are to denounce the result as al qaeda inspired, what are we saying? Don't vote in your general election because that is giving in to terrorism? I think these attempts to undermine a legitimate political party are reprehensible, myself. It shows a level of contempt for democracy and the electorate that belies all the rhetoric about freedom.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:18 / 16.03.04
If I were Spanish, I'd think that this article in the Telegraph was an insult. Patronising and dismissive of a democratic choice.
 
 
Baz Auckland
13:11 / 16.03.04
...and given that the two parties were only about 5% apart in the polls in the days running up to the election, it wasn't that far a leap for the Socialists to win...
 
 
SMS
14:21 / 16.03.04
It shows a level of contempt for democracy and the electorate that belies all the rhetoric about freedom.

I admit that I'm no democrat, but I haven't been talking about whether what the electorate did was right or wrong, since I don't know what the actual cause for the results was. The appearance of appeasement can be enough to be dangerous. Of course, I would never advise any informed person with an opinion not to vote
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:30 / 16.03.04
Sorry, SMS, that wasn't really directed at you. I've just been infuriated by some of the pro-war commentary I've been reading about this.
 
 
ibis the being
18:55 / 16.03.04
it doesn't matter. it's not about punishing the guilty or rewarding the innocent. it's not about negotiation or justice or what-have-you. every political system you set up, every diplomatic position taken, every economic policy, should be expected to produce a certain amount of terrorism as a by-product. if you want less terrorism, change the rules the system is operating by so that it produces different results. terrorism is one variable in a complex equation. change the others, and it will change with it.

Here diz has said what I'd wanted to say only a million times better. At the outset I don't understand this whole premise that the outcome of the election meant the terrorists "won." That has a strong GWB "you're with the terrorists," cut off your nose to spite your face, ring to it. So they win when their actions result in peace & an end to war? So we should always respond by counterattacking the hell out of them, regardless of the damage we do to ourselves? So we just fight this War on Terror till the end of days? What does that mean?
 
 
Baz Auckland
21:09 / 16.03.04
Just for the record: Honduras to pull its army from Iraq as well...

Honduras plans to follow the lead of Spain and withdraw its 370 troops from Iraq by the end of June, Defence Secretary Federico Breve said today. Today's announcement "coincides with the decision of the prime minister-elect of the Spanish government," Breve said.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
21:43 / 16.03.04
The idea that 'terrorists', even of the Islamic Fundamentalist variety, would be in the slightest bit interested in effecting the outcome of a democratic election is simply ludicrous. Whether Spain is run by the right or the social-democratic left really makes no difference to the ideologues of this particular variety of terrorists.

This is not the same case as when the small group of British Fascists were bombing people in the late 70s - they were desperate to have a right-wing govenment in power. When Thatcher came into power they gradually sank back into silence (probably joining the Tory party).

For the current ideologues of the Islamic terrorists - only the complete destruction of capitalism will suffice. Since they cannot ever achieve this they will simply fade away. Though the world will be more heavily militarised than before I would imagine...

That's why this was the wrong question.
 
 
SMS
22:08 / 16.03.04
The idea that 'terrorists', even of the Islamic Fundamentalist variety, would be in the slightest bit interested in effecting the outcome of a democratic election is simply ludicrous.

The new Spanish government will be much less supportive of American foreign policy. If this was carried out by al Qaeda, then one reason they would have attacked was to punish Spain for supporting America, and, presumably, dissuade them from continuing to do so. I know this doesn't acheive "complete destruction of capitalism" or of Israel or of America, but it doesn't hurt.
 
 
Ganesh
23:30 / 16.03.04
This weekend the loud and clear message to Al Qaeda has been they can be successful if only they kill enough people.

Maybe. I guess it'd compliment the "message" that killing a few civilians is an unpleasant-but-sadly-inevitable side-product of effecting the not-so-democratic variety of 'regime change'...
 
 
Ray Fawkes
03:28 / 17.03.04
your whole quesion is predicated on the idea that we are compelled somehow to punish wrongdoing for its own sake, but we're not. we should only punish when it's useful to punish, when doing so would make the public safer (which, generally, would be better accomplished by directing the same resources towards addressing the root causes of the crime) or would reduce the chance of recidivism.

But your own statements suggest that we don't have the freedom to choose to punish in any case. We just react as amalgamated units of a system, indistinguishable from it and, perhaps, irrelevant outside of it. How, then, do "useful", and "safe" come into play? And how are those value judgements assigned?

It appears that your argument is vacillating between zero free will (as a theoretical concept), and conscious value assignments whenever it suits you. Am I reading this wrong?

To redirect this discussion at the topic as stated: do you believe that the Spanish election results and subsequent promise to pull out of Iraq address the root cause of the terrorist attack? Or will it increase the chance of repeated assault?

From another perspective: Do you think the terrorist attacks are a valid attempt to get at the root cause of the provocative behavior of political and economic bodies you point at, or are they a misdirected (or "less useful") attempt at punishment?
 
 
Axel Lambert
09:05 / 17.03.04
I guess it'd compliment the "message" that killing a few civilians is an unpleasant-but-sadly-inevitable side-product of effecting the not-so-democratic variety of 'regime change'...

Do you think Al Qaeda would feel unpleasant or sad about killing civilians, then? And that they would be considered about the level of democracy in Spain? Or is this your own view in some way?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
09:23 / 17.03.04
Surely the point is that the kind of foreign policy undertaken by the Bush Administration (and those of his predecessors) has increased and can only increase support for Al-Queda. Thus the fact that the Spanish people have elected a government who will be less supportive of such policies can only be bad news for terrorists - on all sides.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
11:37 / 17.03.04
The ideologues of the Islamic terroists - do not, as far as I can tell, differentiate between the different varieties of Western Social systems. That is to say that whilst the neo-liberals and neo-conservatives may propose that there is a radical difference between what they call the Post-Hegelian, predmoninatly European socieities and the Hobbesian conservative group (dominated by the USA). It is clear that the Ideologues do not differentiate between them and regard both as legitimate terrorist/military targets.

Of course it is rather bizarre to have to agree with the Islamic Ideologues - but I'd accept that the difference is not as great as the neo's imagine. The difference being a disagreement over how to address injustice in the world - through the Hobbesian leviathan or something more postmodern. [the phantasy of the world being post-hegelian is simply ridiculous... even for a fan of Lyotard...]

The underlying point being that the ideologues do not percieve any such difference - it is our own ideological illusion to imagine that they see Europe and America as different, that one is preferable to the other.

Would they regard an actual 'socialist state' differently from a 'capitalist state' - plainly not because they are both ideological enemies...

best
steve
 
 
Ganesh
12:01 / 17.03.04
Do you think Al Qaeda would feel unpleasant or sad about killing civilians, then?

Not knowing quite how to attribute emotional states to a political movement, I have very little idea.

And that they would be considered about the level of democracy in Spain? Or is this your own view in some way?

Like I say, my remote empathic abilities don't extend this far; I'm just not that good a psychiatrist.

I'm making a point here about the degree of concern over the supposed 'message' the Spanish election results 'send out' to Al Qaeda - when the 'message(s)' given out by the decision to wage war on Iraq is, while couched in massacre-lite terminology ('collateral damage', etc.), equally or more inflammatory within the Arab world - and a good deal less open, at the time, to media scrutiny. The non-Western casualties, for example, were not deemed worthy of a head-count: what 'message' do you suppose that sends out?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
12:41 / 17.03.04
Also, it is worth noting that the swing against the PP was partly because of the perception that they were playing politics with the Madrid bombings.

Well, yes. As far as one can tell, which is not with absolute certainty, natch, the Spanish electorate got tremendously angry with Aznar's govt. for attempting to shift the blame onto ETA (thus justifying Aznar's anti-ETA standpoint) rather than al-Qaida (which would have had awkward implications re: Operation Enduring Optimus Prime). This has apparently extended to instructions being received by embassy staff to stress that it was ETA, in the teeth of the available evidence. Simply put, the Partido Popular seemed to have wanted to suppress the possibility of al-Qaida involvement until after the election, and it is this that the electorate were reacting against. This is probably not what you get from the yellow press. Exercises in corpse-kicking included:

"The plain fact is that the Spanish electorate displayed craven cowardice by electing the Socialists" (New York Post)

"The deranged, totalitarian minds that carried out Madrid's 3/11 must be big fans of the democratic process after watching the lemming-like Spaniards do their bidding." (Daily News, New York)

Our own Sun has been similarly deceitful. Compare the New York Times:

"It is possible to support the battle against terrorism wholeheartedly and still oppose a political party that embraces the same cause....The Spanish people....undoubtedly feel a redoubled commitment to fight on and avenge the innocents who died in Madrid. That did not make them obliged to keep Mr. Aznar's party in power."


That is, by exercising their democratic right to dispose of a government that they felt had lied to them, the Spanish people were not betraying their country or the world to terrorism. Another element which the original question does not seem to be taking into account is that the new Spanish government has made it quite clear that it remains committed to battling terror. It just sees the occupation of Iraq by the US and its allies as not related to that battle in a positive wise, and thus feels its resources could be better employed elsewhere. Note also that, if I understand correctly, the undertaking is that Spanish troops will be withdrawn *unless Iraq passes into the administration of the United Nations* by June 30. Spain is not unwilling to commit troops, but rather to commit troops to support actions outside the UN. This seems to me a reasonably principled stance, and certainly not caving to international terror.

So, SMS, I think in the first instance I would take a look at your news sources, and examine how they are affecting your view of what happened in the elections and then look from there at the implications of what Spain is actually planning to do, and the difference between "We as a nation wish to cooperate with other nations to prevent terrorism (which, after all, Spain has been doing with France for decades)" and "We as a nation support the War on Terror, that is a set of US-set objectives and operations". Flyboy's suggestion is that this decision by Spain is bad news for terrorists seems not an unfair one; for one thing, it brings the idea of truly united pan-European anti-terrorist activity closer. I hope that the UK will be able to collaborate successfully with the countries through whose borders men and materiel are most likely to come.
 
 
Axel Lambert
12:47 / 17.03.04
Ganesh>> My wrong, I stupidly thought you were referring to the Madrid bombings and the regime change in Spain, rather than the war on Iraq and the ousting of Saddam.
 
  

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