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Subcultural engagement for the 21st Century...
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All the new people... (shortly to be moved into Policy)

 
  

Page: 12(3)4

 
 
sleazenation
10:50 / 10.03.04
Actually I'm not sure that the conversation IS the equal of the other fora. As has already been said - if you just want to chat idly, there are plenty of other forums out there. The dichotomy between the Headshop and conversation is pretty false anyhow - The Spectacle fora, which don't usually tax anyone’s intellect to severely, would still be open. Is it more important to let people post about their preferences between pirates, ninjas or pies than to see if they have anything to say, or even if they can express themselves coherently?
 
 
The Strobe
10:52 / 10.03.04
I'm not very keen on introduction threads; if we have one thread for everyone, new and old, it will fill up VERY fast and big posts, as veterans of any Late Shift and What Videogames Are You Playing? know that 10+ pages of posts is a drag, especially on a modem.

Also, seperate ones fill up the topic list. So basically: either is unwieldy, both will be forgotten as people actually get around to posting and discussing and stuff.

Speaking of which: I promise to give FTVT, my spiritual home, a right royal kick up the arse. I have been negligent in my duties highly.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:04 / 10.03.04
I actually find Comics more intimidating than the Headshop (in fact, the most intimidating of all the fora) a lot of the time... but that just could be me.

And yes, there are a million and one other places you can do the Convo shit... but can you do it there with this bunch of people? Or even a similar bunch of people? As I say, the community is still the community even when having a laugh. And personally I like having a laugh with the people here, rather than the "j00 R ghey" crowd.

Anyway, the point is not to argue the merits of the fora. It's to see what to do about the new influx. And I still think, whatever its merits or flaws, the Conversation should be as open/closed as anywhere else; whatever's decided for the rest of the board. I also like the idea of previewing the posts of new posters, but am not sure how practical it would be, if they're really gonna be turning up in such huge quantities.

My personal view is: start with the Terms/Conditions idea. Possibly increase powers to ban people. See what works with minimum moderation- increase it as need be until we have the lightest possible touch WHICH ACTUALLY DEALS WITH the reality of the situation. Otherwise we ghettoise ourselves (again), and the whole place will stagnate.
 
 
Bed Head
11:08 / 10.03.04
Some of us Conversation-types enjoy reading the Head Shop. And the Magic. And the Switchboard. I don’t usually write in the margins of the books I’m reading, either. I’m all for strategies to cope with people who has been googled here, because that’s a completely new route to Barbelith which is clearly going to involve huge numbers, but I don’t see how the community is going to be strengthened by only letting them post in the Revolution forums. You’re starting to sound like members of a football team who don’t want to drink in the same bar as the supporters.
 
 
Bear
11:08 / 10.03.04
I know there are problems with trolls but is the problem really that bad? There have been how many new members in the last few months? 300? And how many of them have trolled the board?

Maybe it would be worth finding out why most of the new members don't post? Of course maybe they are all just lurking but doesn't it seem a little strange?
 
 
Grey Area
11:14 / 10.03.04
You make a salient point...of the names I have seen appear in the 'newest member is' bit in the last week there's been very little to be seen. Are people just registering on the off chance that they might want to post later on and feel the need to have a longer registered time when that does occur? This would mean that the 24-hour posting ban/suit deletion idea would indeed reduce the long-term chances of new individuals contributing.

*lifts up sofa* No, there's no 2,000 non-posting members under here...must be in the attic or somewhere.
 
 
LDones
11:16 / 10.03.04
I recall some time ago, slightly before I joined, during a previous membership freeze when Tom was only allowing people on who e-mailed him to ask, a discussion in the Policy forum proposing the idea that new members might have to write an article for the web-zine. It seemed a bit harsh, but I remember spending some genuine (if idle) time to think 'What would I write about?'. Similar ideas to 'mentoring' for 1-7 day periods were proposed back then as well, but nothing came of them. (Unless I'm having a psychic episode under the influence of bad McDonald's food and am remembering things that never actually happened)

I don't have a problem with small levels of elitism-as-experiment. I agree with the notion that one needs, and should have to put a bit of work into their experience at Barbelith before actively getting a great deal from it.

I think the direction of the community should dictate the approach to new members. If the ultimate goal is to establish the place as an esoteric pseudo-progressive information repository for the internet-at-large, then it's most definitely best to just let them come. If the goal is to more closely foster/nurture discussion in a tighter-knit environment that members feel is of a 'high order' then tighter restrictions are called for.

Ultimately the place is yours, Tom. If you want to experiment, then try tighter restrictions for the hell of it - it'll be an interesting change, even if it isn't a lasting one.

I say we have the opportunity to experiment, and we should.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
11:20 / 10.03.04
Bear: I suggested something similar last time we had this discussion. It didn't get me very far...

Moderators previewing posts is such a bad idea. A really, really bad idea. Imagine the pleasure of of coming to the board to have a read, only to be greeted with the message "You have 48 moderation actions."
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:21 / 10.03.04
Bedhead has a bloody good point as regards what we're starting to sound like. (And as far as I know, is fairly knew him/herself, so knows whereof he/she speaks.) Bear also has a bloody good point as regarding how big the problem actually is... and regarding how many of the new members (how many of the older members, even) actually post.

Remember, a lot of people are gonna come in and register, and then fuck off and forget about it. (Christ knows how many boards I'm still knocking about on that I never even gave a second thought.) The only ones we really need to worry about (if "worry" isn't too emotive a use of language) are the ones that actually post. And we have no way of knowing how that's gonna pan out until it happens.

Yes, there've been trolling problems. Yes, there almost certainly will be again. But (and people with more bulletin board experience than me- this is the only place I post, to be honest- will have to answer this question) are they worse than, less than, or the same as other boards?

I imagine a lot of the long-standing posters here (speaking as a relatively new one) would have been put off by a lot of the measures we've been suggesting above. I probably would have. (Now, losing me probably wouldn't have been that grave a hardship... but for others, that certainly isn't the case.) Terms/Conditions, on the other hand, is a fairly standard procedure anyone who has a computer goes through every time they install software. And, whether they read 'em or not (which they probably wouldn't, to be honest, but bear with me), their acquiescence gives 'em no leg to stand on if they start pulling the old "of course I'm allowed to be a racist bastard otherwise you're all Nazis" schtick. Without recourse to Godwin's Law. And we wouldn't want the big G, would we, kids?
 
 
LDones
11:23 / 10.03.04
I also want to say that I've personally found Barbeltih very intimidating from time to time to post to. A more hands-on indoctrination process, while seeming elitist at outset, might help newer users to feel more comfortable posting to what seems like an exclusive club anwyway.

Am I making sense? It's late here.
 
 
Spatula Clarke
11:32 / 10.03.04
Depending on the kind of intimidation you're talking about, I'm not sure that's entirely a bad thing. If it's fear of saying something stupid, then imo that can be a good thing - it forces you to raise your game, to really think through your arguments before posting them. If you just mean unwelcoming, then that's not something we should be happy about.
 
 
Jub
11:41 / 10.03.04
A more hands-on indoctrination process

gulp. hope not.

I think Stoatie's on the money. The terms and condition page is a great idea. Let's not overly worry about the hoards of trolls just yet as it might never come to anything anyway.

Of the 3711 current members almost half have not posted ever. In fact of the 1865 people that have posted at all, a large number of these only posted once or twice and registered ages ago.

As for intimidation Ldones, that's why the conversation should stay open as it has a newbie friendly air about it, no?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:54 / 10.03.04
Actually, people are starting to pile into the Head Shop with posts at present. One of the interesting and perhaps unpredicted results of this is that old, "dead" threads are being resurrected through Google searches. To look at, say “inclusion/exclusion”, we can see that a thread that had lain dormant for years has been revived, which is cool and good and happy.

Unfortunately, the responses also show some of the issues that I think we are going to be up against – the people involved have not read the FAQs (where an intermediary sign-on page might be useful – nobody ever reads the EULA, but you can at least then say “I told you so” and moderate with a clear conscience), or indeed the actual thread, but have bowled in with their own viewpoints (also with the awkward habit of stating very obvious basic principles that have been previously omitted because everybody already got them, and then saying “I hope that clears everything up and there will be no more argument.” Bless), which pay little heed to preceding discussion and tend to veer offtopic. I’m happy to try to get people to treat their own thinking and that of others with a bit more care’n’circumspection, but I’m afraid that in certain cases it’s not going to work.

More generally, pre-moderation sounds like a plan – maybe it just automatically goes to a Barbeloid who is logged in, so response is almost instantaneous – but a longer-term one.

On the Conversation – basically, I see the point of a proposed ban, but it seems a bit harsh. However, this is, perhaps, somewhere where a bit of moderation could be handy, in both senses. The worry, I assume, is that even the Conversation is not quite intended to function just like A.N. Other’s bulletin board. For example, the “Fade to Black” thread allowed members of Fade to Black to talk about poo while their own bulletin board was repaired. This seemed to be a nice compromise – it served a useful pastoral purpose, and demonstrated the cultural entente between the boards, but had a small footprint. Things get more awkward when, say, half a dozen people decide how great it would be to start talking about poo in another thread that is not about poo, or indeed to start a dozen threads on poo and contribute enthusiastically to all of them. Multiply this question by the number of potential new members, and we should at least take steps *in case* there is a problem. Hooever, keeping somebody out of the Convo for a month seems a bit harsh. However, I think it might be fair, for example, not to allow them to start new threads for a while (perhaps only in the Conversation, if only to avoid about eight zillion “Hi! I found this place through googling ‘the Invisibles’” threads….

On elitism – ultimately, I agree with Deva, Aus and Tom, in different particulars, and feel that dizietsma, although hir concerns are valued, will have to adjust to the idea. We are already an elite in the sense that we have the money and time to interact using computers and the Internet. Within that, by not providing, say, a place where people can call each other ghey or start twelve-page arguments about who exactly is or is nor a fag we are not actually depriving people of any place in which to do this, as there are many other perfectly functional bulletin boards they could use, and plenty of out-of-the-box BBS creation tools. Barbelith is set up with a particular remit, as a Classic Cars or X-Men bulletin board might be – it is larger and more diffuse, but it still exists, and to a very great extent signing up is a tacit agreement of shared values and ambitions. Barbelith doesn’t owe you just because you joined it .
 
 
LDones
12:32 / 10.03.04
E. Randy:

To clarify, the intimidation I refer to is actually kind of the opposite of one that's conducive to investing time in thoughtful discourse, at least for me (at times). There's a clique-ish vibe to certain fora that has, at times, led me to feel less invested in conversation - hands-on indoctrination/minimal mentoring would serve the double purpose, I think, of both filtering newcomers and making them feel more a part of the process once it was over - hopefully making them more likely to invest genuine time into their participation here.

On a semi-related subject:
One thing that Jack Fear stated some time ago in some long-forgotten thread that really caught my attention was "We play rough here, but we shoot straight." I think that can be hard to get a handle on at first, but it's a valuable concept for undergoing the lurker-to-poster process - it was for me, at least.
 
 
diz
12:37 / 10.03.04
One point I do want to make though, is that I think there's a shitload of ego and elitist nonsense flying about these boards and it's a real shame. I wonder how many interesting people have dropped off the radar because they, like me, are turned off by it all.

not enough for it to be an issue, as far as i can tell. in any case, i think it's more important that we keep out people who are bad for the community than that we attract everyone who might be good for the community, especially since people who are bad for the community are likely to run off the good people we already have.

in practice Barbelith is actually extremely Moderation light compared to many boards

yes, this is true, and i think it's a direct consequence of the small size of the community and the relatively high caliber of members here. moderators can be light-handed because most of us are relatively comfortable with other people here, and those other people tend to be polite and reasonably articulate. as membership goes up, we might expect that to go down, which would mean heavy-handed moderation would become increasingly necessary and Barbelith would become less Barbelithy.

Depending on the kind of intimidation you're talking about, I'm not sure that's entirely a bad thing. If it's fear of saying something stupid, then imo that can be a good thing - it forces you to raise your game, to really think through your arguments before posting them.

definitely. i always feel some kind of obligation to bring my A-game to Barbelith, and i think that the degree to which that sentiment is shared by other posters, who would be embarrassed to make some half-assed post in front of the other people who post here, keeps debate strong here.
 
 
Tom Coates
12:39 / 10.03.04
With regards to scaring off new users to the board - frankly the board can be quite hard going for people anyway and if they're going to get scared off with a bit of initial hand-holding then they're not likely to last long in the Head Shop. I'm much less worried about people going "hm it's not for me" than I am about people wandering in, having a piss and then moving on. After all, the "hm it's not for me" people can always come back later if they change their minds...
 
 
diz
12:41 / 10.03.04
oh, sorry, forgot to mention: i think hands-on mentoring would have annoyed me and creeped me out. i hate that kind of shit and i feel more comfortable scoping things out by myself by lurking than i do being guided/mentored/whatever. however, my preferences are not everyone's preferences, and i can see how it would work for some people.

perhaps an optional mentoring program for newbies would be in order? who would do the mentoring?
 
 
Spatula Clarke
12:58 / 10.03.04
I'm not sure I'm adding anything useful to this - or at least, nothing that hasn't already been said - but still...

As far as the mentoring suggestion goes, I'm less in favour of having people steering new posters around the the board than I am having the board do it itself.

Example: You've just joined up and want to post in, say, Headshop. When you click 'New reply', instead of being taken directly to the page in which you write your reply, you first get a page explaining the purpose and 'rules' of the forum you're going to be posting to. You click 'agree' or 'OK' and *then* you're given the page for composing a new reply. Once you've been a member for a set period of time, the forum description page doesn't pop up any more.

Something like that would seem to cover the fact that the FAQ isn't being read. It'd also possibly help to keep discussions on track and prevent threads getting started in the wrong forums. We've got descriptions of all the forums in the FAQ right now and - providing that Tom would be able to add the extra page into the process of posting - we could just alter them a little where needed (putting something into them about reading threads through before posting, for example).
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:29 / 10.03.04
Maybe it would be worth finding out why most of the new members don't post? Of course maybe they are all just lurking but doesn't it seem a little strange?

Actually in my experience that's quite common. People sign up to message boards all the time, then they don't go back and sometimes they simply forget that they ever signed up or that they even exist. Half of them probably aren't even reading the board- when I first joined Barbelith I read it about once a week and posted far less than that. Let's stop assuming that people give as much of a toss as we do and we might start to have an accurate picture of what's really going on.

As for this idea that Barbelith's moderation light... yes, it is and no it isn't. Actually contextually it's somewhere in the middle and that's fine but can we please stop caring? We moderate as is fit for this community. There's no need to go through the hopeless process of comparing it to other places, that's utterly nonsensical because other boards have different problems and issues and perfectly different users. Mostly though there's nothing wrong with moderation- sometimes it seems that we spend so much time justifying it that we're confirming we're doing something bad and... we're just cleaning up mess.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:33 / 10.03.04
Can I add that I think some of our problems would be solved if we simply refused to answer claims about moderation that weren't specific. This seems to be the way we're going at the moment and I think it's working.
 
 
Bear
13:52 / 10.03.04
Let's stop assuming that people give as much of a toss as we do and we might start to have an accurate picture of what's really going on.

Tis a good point, also means we shouldn't be suprised really when people join and just piss about for awhile....
 
 
Grey Area
13:53 / 10.03.04
Following comments that were made here, a suggestion: Can someone dig out and link to the thread(s) that summarised the troll problem Barbelith had? I've tried googling for it but to no avail. Providing it as background material might stop new members getting the impression we're all elitist b@$t@rds and make them realise the truth: that we're all a bunch of cuddly teddies (with, admittedly, occasional-use claws).
 
 
grant
14:44 / 10.03.04
Tom: if it contiinues to escalate as I expect it might we could in principle be dealing with a worst case situation of several HUNDRED new users a day most of which coming through from a search and randomly choosing to reply to it.

"expect," "in principle"... why not just see what happens?

Also, thinking back to when I first found this place, I may have come back after 24 hours, I may not have. What about a much shorter period -- like 2 or 6 hours? Still enough to discourage idle nothing posts, but not enough to discourage desire/keen interest.

--------------

Thinking over E. Randy's point about "48 moderation actions...."

I think the moderating new users' posts would only be really convenient if they were separated in the queue from other moderation requests -- like a different list of things to do.

If every member was given a vote, then there'd be a really fast turnover... which would mean there'd be less work to do, but would also mean a *lot* more incidences of the "You don't have the necessary permissions to perform this function because the other moderators got here first, you slack loser" message. Which would be *very* discouraging.
 
 
The Strobe
15:23 / 10.03.04
There's no need to go through the hopeless process of comparing it to other places, that's utterly nonsensical because other boards have different problems and issues and perfectly different users.

Not really. We need to compare it to other boards because we're trying to decide what we want this to be; Tom has a fairly strong idea - do the users have similarly strong views? Are we trying to be inclusive - people who "fit in" on other boards ought to fit in here and we bend our society to fit - or exclusive, where we remind people who don't fit in that other places are available for them? If the people from those other boards come here, are they going to bring those problems and issues, or will they not occur because the framework of Barbelith doesn't let it happen?

I've been thinking a lot about this all day. The thing is: I think, if we polled all the users as to what Barbelith (by which I mean, the bulletin board as a system/community) represents to them - and thus what they would define as the common unifying spirit of posters - you'd probably find very disparate responses.

Now, we can try and help people fit in, but I worry that what I think might be encouragement might be seen by others as "fascistic", or other such choice words. For instance: one thing I really like about here is the sheer quality of the written word on it. In general, threads are full of full sentences, paragraphs, and are pleasant to read. Now, someone comes on speaking that bizarre language of other boards; what do I do? Do I PM them? Do I PM them about the rules of the board? We've had numerous discussions about "should Moderators alter incorrect spelling or grammar" and the hordes fight back with "that's free expression, you can't keep it down!", but when I see (as the entire content starting post in a thread) "mines mathieu Kassovitz whats yours??? (apologies to Senorita), how do I go about instigating a change? Or should I accept that realatively good English isn't a prerequisite of Barbelith? And that's before we discuss whether that's an acceptable explanation of a thread. And how do you say to someone "we don't do listposts here; back your statements up!"? I feel bad about doing it because I know other longstanding board members would disagree, but I feel that not doing it removes some of the structure and rigour from the board. And so the downward spiral begins.

So: am I an elitist idiot who deserves to be stripped of his moderation hat, or do I have a serious point? I'd hope the latter. But if the board is to have guidelines, as laid out in a T&C article, moderators are going to have to enforce that. And that means telling people to talk proper, or to impart meaning. Barbelith in general gets very bitchy about semantics - most people here know the importance of saying what you mean rather than something like it (either because they've been misunderstood or been Haused when their guard was down), and it seems unfair to do that to new members and yet also entirely necessary. I've noticed it going on in a fair few threads, and turned a blind eye - not defending someone I can't bring myself to, but not prodding them further. This is the best I can do at the moment.

Sorry this is long, but if we're all going to discuss how new members are going to affect what the board is, we need to know what it is and what it stands for ourselves. So far, that's been discussed incredibly loosely given the number of ideas for solution we've all been implementing.
 
 
Tom Coates
16:54 / 10.03.04
With regards to comparing ourselves to how other online boards do things, I want to say straight off that unless we can see things that other boards do that make the quality of discussion better and/or we think we could learn from them, then frankly I couldn't care less. Barbelith is so far ahead of the curve in these things that frankly it's almost embarrassing. And that's still after two years of limited development. There isn't a single online community out there that I'm jealous of in terms of depth or quality of discussion.

We shall do innovative things here not follow the pack. This also means that we can make mistakes and change them back again. We've done it before. We've closed the board, opened the board, had no posting, had no security, had multiple user names, had no user names etc. etc. etc. We've made all the mistakes that there ARE.

And - let me be straight on this stuff - I'm getting quite good at this stuff. I've built communities other than Barbelith and seen which ones work and which ones don't. This is the most successful one I've been involved with - it's not the biggest, but it is the most successful. But we can make it better and I want to bring in the information and the understanding that I've got from other places to bear here as well.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
19:06 / 10.03.04
Would you like to expand on that? Are there specific good and bad points you've seen elsewhere? How are we 'so far ahead it's embarassing'?

Personally, the concept of elitism in an environment like this makes me scream(beyond the explicit 'access' notion).

And I can see from the point of view of someone who's just found this place, this thread yells small-mindedness. Which isn't generally something I associate with Barbelith. But I appear to be in the minority on this one.

There are two distinct but connected issues here, that of dealing with trolls, and that of how a community with a strong, and from what Tom says, distinctive culture copes with visitors/new settlers.

To new members I'd say what appears as a paranoia *is* neccessary twitchyness as over the time i've been a member, and that's not from the start by any means, there've been one or two concerted troll attacks.

And the board is still recovering from one that as others have said, neccissated closing membership and threatened closure of the board. So we're still bruised, and much more aware of how the relative lack of moderation, which again and again has been supported, gives us particularl problems on that score.

I'm think people are getting carried away with the 'trial by fire' notion. Maybe cos it sounds cool? On those grounds you'll only get people sticking around who m.o. is tough/combative/loud.

And while I enjoy this aspect of the board at times, it's not my main reason for enjoying this place. At times I find the sensation I have this intelligent+shouty=the Barbe-ideal extremely fucking wearing.

Personally, one of the things I love most about Barb. is that different sorts of personalities seem to be able to thrive, coexist and contribute usefully. It seems ridiculously narrow-minded to insist that the only worthwhile members are those who thrive on that.

As beyond all the %piercing intelligence% the broad mix of personality types is a good chunk of what makes this place flourish.

Buuuut, I find myself agreeing with Haus on the 'this place doesn't owe you anything'/it's what you find it as.

Why should it be anything else? It's not a welfare/support space per se, even though there is a very supportive atmosphere at times.

It seems to me rather like arriving in a new country and expecting the customs/language to be the same/getting stroppy when they're not.

I support the 'making people read a contract' *before* signing up, but think it has to be very clearly and accurately written, and written consciously for people who may not have context for the rules/discussion. This in order to make its subsequent referral to/use in moderation clear.

But that if you sign up to this, as with any other terms and conditions, then you *do* make commitments as to behaviour.

Things like not tolerating racist/homophobic etc posting could be easily emphasised in this, as they often are in other communities I've seen and enjoyed.

Gawd. enough already.

Oh and a broader approach would involve older members perhaps not being quite so complacent/pleased with themselves. As Bear points out assuming people don't give quite as much of a toss cuts both ways.

Ie, we can probably influence this place the way we want to much more easily if we can be bothered...

Eg, I was finding the quality of threads in the conversation depressing and moronic by my personal standards. So having bitched pointlessly about it elsewhere for a bit, decided that it might be a bit more constructive to just start stuff/get a bit more involved.

Basically, I get a sense from this thread of 'well we've got it totally sorted. get with it or fuck off'. which may be part of the size issue, but I doubt would have resulted in a vibrant community in the past.

Jeesus. enough.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
19:07 / 10.03.04
We need to compare it to other boards because we're trying to decide what we want this to be; Tom has a fairly strong idea - do the users have similarly strong views? Are we trying to be inclusive - people who "fit in" on other boards ought to fit in here and we bend our society to fit

I think that our society bends to fit people on its own, as all societies do. This isn't a question or a point that can be answered, we can't be actively inclusive. Barbelith has a very strong structure and it's sound, it's far sounder than any message board I've ever been involved with before and the moderation system, for all that I sometimes feel it's a little loose, works and is strong. The thing is that even when contributing to other boards you can't gauge an experience of its working unless you're involved in the way it works. So I want to draw a line under what I've said and clarify it- what I mean and didn't bring across is that you can apply experience to Barbelith and say 'well I think that it would work better if it was a little tweaked in that direction' but to say 'we should change our moderation system so it runs more along the lines of this board here' wouldn't mean anything substantial. Fitting in on one board doesn't mean your presence or the way you present there is going to mean anything in a different community. Likewise applying the problems that the Kylie message board has here isn't going to translate over in the same way, not necessarily because of the moderation system but more because people will respond and interact completely differently here.

As to what Barbelith is... hell you're asking for the spirit of the board, not an actuality. We can talk about practicality but I don't know if we should try to pin down what it is. A place on the Internet put aside for interaction with a number of themes that crop up again and again and a structure that's always changing. I think this board is about identity and its structure.

On the language front I think that if you don't understand something, ask if the person who wrote it will change it. I know it's hardly a solution and doesn't mean anything but that's just one of those things... you can't command people to use language correctly, heaven knows I misuse it because I haven't had the benefit of the education that would allow me to write perfectly- my grammar is appalling and I don't always use words absolutely properly but that's just that. I'm (mis)readable, that's the bottom line judgement.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
02:41 / 11.03.04
Well, here's my two bob's worth. I don't know what you'd do about new members per se, if volume's the problem, but if it's largely to do with people talking utter bollocks, ( and god only knows I've done it myself, ) then perhaps a simple caveat before anyone posts might do the trick. Y'know, along the lines of;
" Are you sure about this ? "
 
 
Perfect Tommy
07:01 / 11.03.04
Imagine a bar that you're a regular at, that you don't have to get your ID out for anymore, where you know most of the regular patrons. You, personally, do not own the place, yet it is home territory of a sort. On Saturday nights, it can get overly crowded and sometimes there are belligerent jerks who get on your nerves. But usually the patrons are perfectly cordial and lovely, and frequently there are folks who come out and say Hi who you greatly hope will become regular patrons.

I think this is something like Barbelith for the old-timers. The board is its own entity, not owned by any of us—and I include Tom in that statement, in that the community is more than the name and the server and more even than the time and effort he and cohorts have put into making this place operate. We wish to make it a welcoming place so that we can acquire new regulars, but we are wary at how crowded it gets on Saturdays, 'cause we got chased out of our last bar when it turned into a total hipster hangout. The problem is not that 'Our Bar' is overrun with icky yucky non-decrepit old posters who smell of wee—the problem is that an overrun hipster hangout tends to burn out. (Oh, yeah, and a couple times there have been people who have tried to fucking firebomb our bar.)

I guess what I'm trying to say with my overextended metaphor is that discussion of how to cope with an influx is roughly equivalent to coming in on Saturday and deciding who you nod to politely (most), who you buy a beer for (many), and who is a possibly belligerent drunk (very very few, but dangerous enough to prepare for). We're also trying to work out how, if we can't manage to avoid being elitist, we can at least avoid being elitist pricks.

I suppose I'm being an apologist, but this is how I reconcile the apparent paradox that many new folks are well within their rights to wonder at: "For a bunch of anarchists out fucking shit up you sure are totalitarian!"
 
 
Alex's Grandma
07:22 / 11.03.04
So what's your point there, skipper ?
 
 
gornorft
09:47 / 11.03.04
Let the poor bastards be!

We were all "newbies" once upon a time and, to the best of my knowledge, none of us had to undergo any initiation proceedure or period of probation.

Get over yourselves!

People come, people go. They talk shit or they make sense. If they talk shit everyone else on the board makes it pretty clear by way of their responses that they are being tedious or boring by the damning evidence of ignore. If they make sense then someone might reply to what they have to say...

Sheesh!!
 
 
Mourne Kransky
10:14 / 11.03.04
Why are all the newbies (shortly to be moved into Policy)? Is this the Barbelith of the Sangatte detention camp? Will there be cages and big, snarly dogs. Can I have a Nazi snobtroll uniform and hat, please.

I think it's inevitable that there will be the odd eejit coming our way and I think Tom's ideas for troll prophylaxis are sound.

I also think that the vast majority of the newbies will be bringing a lot of life and fresh perspective to this old place, even if it takes a while for them to find a congruent posting style. It's only their volume that concerns me. I think that does need some management.

I have no problems with the customary liberality of approach until mods deem it necessary to act abruptly, and in concert, to delete etc.
 
 
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10:24 / 11.03.04
Yeah keep it loose, that's one of the reasons i like the place so much. I've posted some totally insane stuff in this forum and have been asked to calm down only once.

That makes me have a lot more respect for the place, and it would many others.

The long standing members here shouldn't get so wound up about one or two people coming through ranting about this and that because that's life. If you shut out everyone you don't agree with or think you won't like you'll all end up full of crap, and you'll all believe your own bullshit.

Besides, when there's nothing to talk about or your just bored it can be funny to have someone come and stir things up a bit. I know exactly the type of person that you don't want here, but maybe if you tolerated them once in a while it would help you see how harmless they really are. At worst you have to delete some posts by a nutter or ban somebody. It's not going to ruin a place as big as this.

All i can see you doing is losing touch with whatevers left of reality if you put more and more rules in place.
 
 
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10:30 / 11.03.04
Why are all the newbies (shortly to be moved into Policy)?

Yeah is this a joke? As in : is that part of the title just one of you having a laugh?

If not what's new, and would i still be considered a newbie? I think i know how this place works now so you don't have to worry about me.
 
 
gornorft
10:54 / 11.03.04
You DO still have to worry about me. I'm an outsider here if ever there was one and I talk shit all the time... "I will take their elbow in the palm of my other hand, gently pull them towards me and kiss them lightly on the lips. Bugger their makeup, I don't care. Not my problem." AND YOU BELIEVED ME?????? It was a JOKE people! I'm the crappest, most awkward person on the planet and nobody seemed to suss it.
 
  

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