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All the new people... (shortly to be moved into Policy)

 
  

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Tom Coates
15:21 / 09.03.04
We're getting quite a lot of new people coming onto the board via Google and the like and I'm beginning to think that we need to calm them down a bit before they post. How do people feel about restoring the 24 hour initial posting ban until they've demonstrated a certain commitment?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:24 / 09.03.04
Sounds like a good idea, Tom.

It's probably better than my "roving death squads" concept.
 
 
Sax
15:30 / 09.03.04
What kind of commitment can people demonstrate over a 24 hour posting ban, though?

Maybe... does the board technology allow us to limit new members' posting potential over time, for example in the first week you get 10 posts, in the second 20, in the third 30, use them wisely and in the fourth week you get unlimited posting rights. Or would that be unworkable?
 
 
_pin
15:30 / 09.03.04
What's 'a certain commitment' in this case? 24 hours, maximum, exposure to some comfortable, wolly liberals with nice preconceptions that they don't like having challenged (this isn't perjorative, by the way) isn't going to make people nicer, although it certainly should, and we'd have no way of checking if it had.

I can't actually think of anything that I wouldn't have found remarkably offensive and disheartening when I first joined. And although I can understand that measures would be exceptionally helpful, and can understand the case for them, we'd probablly just loose all the new blood to them.

Maybe a ban on starting new threads would be the way to go? Or did you eman this already?
 
 
Smoothly
15:32 / 09.03.04
Question is, a commitment to what? A 24 hour cooling-off period might well stop the drive-by troll, but anyone with a more spirited interest in pissing on the carpet, and a modicum of patience won't be bothered by that. Might a more lengthy period of enforced lurking be worth considering? I'd imagine those with good intentions would want to spend a while getting a feel for the place anyway.
 
 
Bed Head
15:38 / 09.03.04
Yeah, why stop at 24 hours? Howsabout 7 days. And if you don’t start posting after a certain time your suit expires. It’d still be easy to get in if you want to be here, but it just mean having to a)wait and b) pay attention. A lot of these kids just seem to be getting blown in through the door.
 
 
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15:39 / 09.03.04
We're getting quite a lot of new people coming onto the board via Google and the like and I'm beginning to think that we need to calm them down a bit before they post. How do people feel about restoring the 24 hour initial posting ban until they've demonstrated a certain commitment?

'Calm them down a bit'.

Have a contributed a lot to the need for this thread? (i've a feeling i have considering i got asked by Haus to calm down the other day) Can you explain what you mean a little more please Tom?

I think this will happen in any forum that has this amount of members, and the best way to deal with it would probably be to ask us members to report any madness via PM as and when we see it?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:41 / 09.03.04
_pin - yes it is pejorative, aksherley. It also assumes that we are worried about the influx becasue they may challenge our liberal beliefs, which seems a bit of an assumption.

One question we probably ought to ask is whether we're worried that the board will become a place where sexism, racism and other isms are regularly thrown out by the excitable and stupid (more so than the fairly sedate pace previously - see thread in the Policy) or whether we are concerned that Barbelith will in general be a less pleasant place (see the "It's offical - I am a sad, lonely geek" thread) or that Barbelith will just get buried by the standard "J00 R ghey" tosh that infests many BBSes? What exactly are we worried about?

A 24-hour posting limit might be a start on all three, but it may well not be adequate...
 
 
Nobody's girl
15:43 / 09.03.04
Will there be a swimsuit competition too?

I see the utility in this for avoiding trolls...

Honestly, as a new poster, I find this thread a little cliquey/elitist/xenophobic.
 
 
Saveloy
15:44 / 09.03.04
How about leaving it as it is, but being a bit more brutal with the moderation? ie when people start acting the giddy goat we delete stuff. Or would that just stir up trouble?
 
 
---
15:51 / 09.03.04
I don't think that there will be a board on the whole of the internet with 3600+ members that doesn't have a certain amount of mad ones. I'm currently having a break from moderating for a matrix forum that has 12,000+ members and it's just a regular occurance that we can't really do anything about. It sucks when your moderating, especially when you get 'board spammers' that spam through every forum on the site but i really don't think that there's anything that can be done other than asking members to report idiots.

I accept that i've been an idiot myself at times but none of what i've posted has been with malicious intent, just over excitement i suppose at finding such a cool place.

The excitement will always wear off though and members will settle down after a certain time. If anyone new get's out of hand, meaning a total idiot, you could just ban them and that should do the trick.

I know they could just join under another username but even total idiots get sick of doing this and will leave for another place they can troll/spam after a while.

Hope this helped a little.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:54 / 09.03.04
I'm worried about the day-delay because it might be seen as cliquey/elitist/xenbophobic (and also, as _pin says, it won't necessarily deter somebody, although I think the assumption is that someone might lose interest or be distracted by something else if they just wanted venting space) - personally I'd be more up for giving moderators a bit more freedom, and maybe ahving some more moderators, but that may well not be practicable in terms of the board's ideological construction.
 
 
Eloi Tsabaoth
16:04 / 09.03.04
What about a rule that says new members have to forego sugary drinks 24 hours before posting?
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
16:09 / 09.03.04
I rather fancy the idea of beating them soundly about the head and shoulders with a large blunt object. That would calm them down a bit.

I don't think that a 24 hour waiting period is too strict. It would keep some of the trolls out.
 
 
---
16:14 / 09.03.04
I don't think that a 24 hour waiting period is too strict. It would keep some of the trolls out.

Really? Wouldn't it just wind them up even more and make them more hellbent on causing problems once the 24hr period has passed?
 
 
Hieronymus
16:14 / 09.03.04
On the whole, Lithers have been really strong about calling any racist/sexist/idiotic comments on the carpet and are pretty skilled at holding their own against that sort of thing. If it becomes repetitious or epidemic or spamtastic from a particular poster, then yeah I can see where action might need to be taken. But beyond that, Lithers are fairly tough about meeting bullshit head-on.

Personally I'm all for an imposed lurking period. But that's just my style. Some people work better by bumping up against the borders rather than finding where they lie.

Tough question.
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
16:17 / 09.03.04
Really? Wouldn't it just wind them up even more and make them more hellbent on causing problems once the 24hr period has passed?

Perhaps, if they are really hellbent on trolling. I was thinking more of the garden variety trolls who are just bored on a Sunday afternoon.
 
 
pomegranate
16:19 / 09.03.04
i like the idea of making people wait to post. and making them wait even longer to be able to start threads. call me xenophobic if you want, and yr right. i *do* fear an influx of people named, say, mAtRiXxX fAn 23 who post things like, as haus put it, j00 r gh3y!!
 
 
HCE
16:19 / 09.03.04
I've fled to Barbelith from another board where the "J00 R ghey" contingent, as Haus correctly describes it, slowly infiltrated and then reached a certain critical mass at which the people who posted more topical material and fewer threads about digestion just got sick of it and left. As a refugee, I am willing to submit to the decisions of moderators given greater freedom to simply delete. I think everybody here is wary of trolls, but I ask you also to be wary of those who are not-quite-outright malicious, but only sort of... lame.

Fuck. I can't think of a way to say this without it sounding really bad and paranoid and histrionic. I know it sounds bad. I don't mean it that way but can't think of a better way to put it.
 
 
passer
16:23 / 09.03.04
I was writing a long winded post, but since people have very succinctly beat me to all of my salient points:

A 24 hour waiting period sounds fine, but it will only reduce, rather than eliminate the problem. I strongly support a delay in your ability to start a topic thread.

However, should these delays be based on time or your number of posts? A combination of both?
 
 
Cheap. Easy. Cruel.
16:25 / 09.03.04
Fuck. I can't think of a way to say this without it sounding really bad and paranoid and histrionic.

Gasp! What are you trying to say?
 
 
HCE
16:41 / 09.03.04
No no! You posted while I was writing! I didn't mean it that way!

I hate myself.
 
 
---
16:56 / 09.03.04
I hate myself.

Yeah.......same here.
 
 
gingerbop
17:09 / 09.03.04
I think it's a good idea, but 24 hours, or a week, doesn't demand lurking. It may demand them to go and post shit somewhere else, but not necessarily have a look round here. Obviously, if they didnt really give a shit, then they'll have forgotten about it. For which purposes, seven days seems a better plan.

And by the way, I waited a few months before I could post, because of a new member lock-out. So thats perhaps why a week doesnt seem too extreme.
 
 
Warewullf
17:19 / 09.03.04
And if you don’t start posting after a certain time your suit expires

This seems like a good idea, but you might just wind up with people posting any kind of crap just to keep their login active.
 
 
Solitaire Rose as Tom Servo
17:26 / 09.03.04
I think that instead of a time limit of how long you have to wait before posting, we have a number of posts limit for a specified time period (week, 2 weeks, whatever people think is fair). That way we eliminate the "drive by spamming" that can occur, as well as if it IS a troll, contain it so that the moderators can clean up the mess quickly.

But it also allows new people to get the hang of the discussions, join in and feel welcomed.

I also like the idea of a suit expiring if there is no activity in it for a period of time, but I don't think it should be posting, since some people are going to be lurkers or don't want to clutter the board with "Me too" messages. Just a PM or something every few weeks would let us know that they are still here, and not just saving a suit to be used in case of wartime.

But I haven't seen a lot of trouble with new people, so welcome, join in, declare your pirate/ninja allegance and all your redheads are belong to me.
 
 
phrankphutta
17:29 / 09.03.04
And by the way, I waited a few months before I could post, because of a new member lock-out. So thats perhaps why a week doesnt seem too extreme.

As did I...and I must admit, when I first realized I couldn't post replies (I can't remember, but I don't think I could even view threads), I immediately thought "You elitist fucks!"

However, I did return to Barbelith after a while and found that the ban had been lifted...upon further research I found that it was because of some bastard (who shares my first name) who was basically spearheading a relentless one-man assault on the board.

I still don't fully understand how a complete ban on new users was a solution to the problem, but the point is it's now wide open for us "presumed idiots" to post...and I'm not seeing a whole lot of bullshit threads.

I understand the implications of banning people from a "free-speech" message board, but I also think it's easy to tell if someone is trying to have a valid conversation, or just trying to start shit.

Judging from the above conversation, I realize that my opinion isn't of any value here, but if you were to ask me, I'd say do what the other 73,482,957,892,345,789 message boards do and judge these things on a case-by-case basis.
 
 
Gary Lactus
17:38 / 09.03.04
I agree with Bop and others, actually. The 24 hr ban will probably dtere less...errr...driven trolls. Trolling, I think, is a largely impulsive activity and most potential troublemakers'll probably just figure, if they can't get in straight away, that it'd be more fun to go and bother someone else.

(still Spaliance, BTW. Give it up.)
 
 
---
17:46 / 09.03.04
I think, is a largely impulsive activity and most potential troublemakers'll probably just figure, if they can't get in straight away, that it'd be more fun to go and bother someone else.

Yeah kind of like a firewall to prevent crackers, if they can't get straight in they'll just try somewhere else instead. The idea is growing on me now.
 
 
agvvv
18:07 / 09.03.04
Sounds fair Solitaire Rose..
 
 
Cat Chant
18:10 / 09.03.04
We are elitist, aren't we? Like, in a meritocracy-type elitist way? I like that about Barbelith.
 
 
Bed Head
18:26 / 09.03.04
And if you don’t start posting after a certain time your suit expires

This seems like a good idea, but you might just wind up with people posting any kind of crap just to keep their login active.


No, I meant in my initial post that you gotta remember you registered in the first place. There’s a post in the Headshop, obviously just some kid who was goolging for his homework, who registered and said something dumb. I’m actually quite glad he did, because he revived a thread I hadn’t read before and it’s really interesting. But anyway, it seems there’s a certain type of user who figure, why not register a suit anyway, just for a momentary laugh. There was one in the Magic forum last night, who was quite aggrieved that nobody replied to his dumbass comment. Nothing’s been heard from him since, I doubt he even remembers what he said, or where he said it, or what his password is. But more people are online and running searches all the time, this is a situation that's only going to get worse.

I know it’s complex, and almost certainly impracticable; but just say, if you could register but not post for seven days, but then if in the four-week window after that you didn’t say *anything* at all, the suit evaporates and you gotta start over. It would involve a certain degree of lurking so as not to miss your window, maybe also guard against the registration of slews of sock-puppets (and I know there’s supposed to be IP blocking going on, but it doesn’t seem particularly effective in the case of Everyone’s Favourite Welshman, thus far). Weeding out casual I’ll-forget-about-barbelith-the-instant-I-turn-my-computer-off google-trolls from the real, committed, obsessive-sad-fuckwit-I-have-no-life trolls would be useful in itself. I mean, a committed troll is easy enough to spot, it doesn’t necessarily call for immediate deletion, because the opinion of the community can be seen to be expressed, as others have said. But this place *is* different from other places on the internet. It’s easier for everyone to focus on a problem user who puts some effort in themselves, rather than all these bits of litter blowing all over the board. Leave the door open, but at least make it so they have to concentrate to get through it. It’ll be just like in real life for a lot of the recent arrivals, I think.

We are elitist, aren't we? Like, in a meritocracy-type elitist way? I like that about Barbelith.

Oh, me too, actually.
 
 
Smoothly
18:29 / 09.03.04
Looking at the this thread in terms of the title and abstract - and considering that a majority our active new members will probably read it - I'd second Solitaire Rose's sentiments and suggest we welcome them. Because, by and large, new members are a Good Thing. I think it would be a shame if recent arrivals were given the impression that they're going to be treated primarily with suspicion. Especially since I think the prevailing culture here is one where positive intent is presumed.
As for those who do come here with the intention antagonism, is it conceivable that they could be given an avenue for venting their hostility in a context that was at least potentially constructive. Perhaps antipathy to the community should be better taken on-board by the community (pun intended). There might be a number of ways this could be done, but would a thread called, for example, 'Why You Hate Barbelith' do more harm than good?
 
 
The Strobe
18:40 / 09.03.04
Honestly: don't let them get at the Conversation for a month.

Not being given Convo access doesn't stop them being interested; there's conversation everywhere on boards on the net. It's what's not Conversation that's interesting here. Granted, there are a lot of threads that end up in the Conversation because they have no place elsewhere, and I can see the point of them; there's also a huge amount of fluff. And I just feel that diverts. A month of using the board without it gives focus. I think once you've got to know people on threads, it's nice to be able to chill out with them in the Conversation - it's the post-discussion bar, as it were - it's just you really ought to go to the discussions to be allowed to use the bar.

I also like the 24hour instablock idea. A lot of people Googling just want information, not discussion; with a 24hour lock, if they really want to discuss it, they'll come back; otherwise, they'll take what they need.

New members are a good thing, and I'd guess my towel is thrown in with the "elitist" lot - but that's what keeps Barbelith unique; it's quite broad, yet focused inside its divisions, and has a high quality of posting. How long before a new members demands signatures?
 
 
Smoothly
18:52 / 09.03.04
I don't really understand the advantage of keeping people out of the Conversation and limiting them to the other fora? I'm probably being dense, but why's it better to have trolls fol-de-rolling around the Revolution, say, than the Convo?
 
  

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