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Cerebus #300: It Is Accomplished

 
  

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Never or Now!
16:20 / 15.03.04
One man's Supercontext is another man's Hell, eh? "Don't go towards the light..."

Kinda disturbing to see Cerebus dragged screaming into Dave's Inferno, but I don't suppose this story was ever gonna get a happy ending.

Dig how he ended it with... a letter to his lawyer? And a prayer...!

Ah, I'll miss "Cerebus", even though it basically depressed and deflated me on a monthly basis, I always enjoyed letting Dave Sim in to do a bit of damage.
 
 
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
16:21 / 20.03.04
I've only been reading Cerebus for about five years. I got hooked on it when I was only (coughcough) years old, bought all the phonebooks (which cost me a LOT of allowance money), and the little gray bastard's been a part of my life ever since.

There is nothing else I would say I've ONLY been reading for five years. But the Cerebus project really does redefine the word "epic".

I think the ending was just about perfect, except that I had really expected the return of "Dave". I have a feeling it's almost exactly what Dave Sim had in mind these past 25 years or so, except for the inclusion of "Rabbi" and maybe "God" instead of "Tarim". But Cerebus getting dragged, kicking and screaming, into the light? To me, that seems pretty definitive of the entire series.

Does anybody else think Dave Sim kind of hates Cerebus? Not the comic, but the character. I don't know, 27 years with an aardvark as his only constant companion...

-feb
 
 
houdini
21:22 / 23.03.04

Hey! Don't forget Gerhard....

C'mon. "Help, God! The light has *got* Cerebus!" Well, it brought a tear to my eye.

I haven't been reading 'Latter Days' since about the third issue. In fact, I lost my way somewhere during 'Fall And The River' and have just settled for skimming and bagging them. Now is the time for the Big Cerebus Read, methinks.

Best response to this I've seen on the internet is this essay by Andrew Rilstone. The central thrust of which I agree with.

'Nuff said.
 
 
wibble
21:11 / 24.03.04
Okay, first off - I'm new hear. Next, haven't read Cerebus in ages - the general misogyny and rambling textiness did it for me ages back.

But I do think Cerebus is a major work. Not just because of the self-publishing, two-man-band, whateverness of it, and not for its duration - I think the real trick with Cerebus was to do it in 'real time'. It took 27 years to write, and in that time the character aged 27 years. That he dies alone and in an uninteresting fashion just makes it better still. Superheroes? Fur Q. It's idiosyncratic, it's rambling, and it's piss3ed off a loty of its readers (including me) to the extent they won't come back. Job done.

Surely that's the key thing about it, no matter how good or bad you or I think a lot of it was - it's a singular (and bloody-minded) work, and that's what real art should be...
 
 
Dr. Kenneth Noisewater
14:50 / 25.03.04
Um, around 200 years passed during "Latter Days". Cerebus skipped forward fifty years between issues 288 and 189/290.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
15:40 / 25.03.04
Yeah, it's more accurate to say that over the span of 300 issues, the character aged 300 years.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:39 / 30.03.04
There's a feature length interview with Sim in the new Onion AV Club.

"Leftist reactions are always histrionic. If it becomes necessary to renew my attack, I'll renew my attack. At this point, I think history will do most of the dirty work. Feminists are in an untenable position, defending something they no longer believe in, and which history will force them to recognize was destructive of most of the central pillars of civilization. I'm just the first one to point it out publicly."
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
23:22 / 30.03.04
I've barely begun to read this interview and this man is coming across as the most SMUG! ARROGANT! EVER! Unless he's being funny - and please do tell me he is.

Because really when he says; "You know, it's really quite unbelievable to me that you have 4,000 words in which to cover the longest sustained narrative in human history, and your first question is "Why an Aardvark?""

I just want to say "Yeah, but am I bothered? Do I actually give a shit? Go away."

I have never read anything by him, by the way. Just curious.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
23:29 / 30.03.04
I feel sorry for this man.

(I have read more of the interview, now.)
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
23:48 / 30.03.04
"I don't know, man. I kinda liked it."

- Unnamed Skit Character (Possibly 'Cocksnot')
De La Soul Is Dead


I thought it gave a nice glimpse at all sides of the guy bringing to fore his sincere desire for CEREBUS TO BE EXAMINED AS A WHOLE WORK WHICH NO ONE HAS YET BOTHERED TO DO. The "brilliant creator" bit.

It's long overdue. Hopefully Following Cerebus will do the trick because it's getting a bit ridiculous. If War And Peace took 27 years to write, scholarly commentary on the damn thing would have started halfway through.
 
 
Kirk Ultra
00:27 / 31.03.04
The problem with Dave Sim's desire for Cerebus to be judged as a whole work, seperate from Sim's politics, is that after around issue 240 or 250 (and that's being generous) Cerebus got incredibly boring and Dave Sim got incredibly crazy. At times the comic was so dull it was almost unreadable, and over the course of a few months my reasons for collecting went from my love of the series to just wanting to see how much crazier Dave would get from issue to issue.

Certainly Cerebus as a whole does warrent some discussion and literary appreciation, some of those graphic novels were truly amazing, but as crazy as he is, Dave Sim himself has become a lot more interesting than his creations. Part of me laughs, part of me feels sorry for him. Ther's been some discussion in this thread of the obvious signs that he's cracking up (seeing his body as rotting flesh, hatred of his penis, etc, etc) and that Onion AV interview has some more great examples of this. The unbelievable pretentiousness, his repeated denial of feelings ("I dont feel"). And he certainly does hate his audience doesn't he? I mean, he obviously hates everybody, but there's a lot of hate in there that seems reserved for his fans.

The guy is so transparent. He's so obviously been hurt before and never gotten over it. It just screams between the lines of everything he says. Cerebus was really brilliant for a very long time, but right examing the transformations that Sim has gone through is keeping me a lot more entertained.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
01:31 / 31.03.04
his repeated denial of feelings ("I dont feel").

Well, that touches upon the one thing I agree wholeheartedy with Dave on. Our society has completely pitched over on its obsession with emotion over reason and, basically, conversations, especially printed ones, could definitely stand to focus more on things rather than feelings. It's less about robotics and more about abolishing that sort of soft-focus, head cocked to one side line of "And how did that make you feel" line of questioning.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
13:46 / 31.03.04
Which he is clearly using as a rather skimpy cloak for his irrational feelings of anger at his ex-wife, repulsion at his own genitalia and fear of difference. The idea of Dave Sim as anything but a twitching mass of emotions strikes me as hysterical. Who's that guy he keeps trying to wrassle?

That interview was also a comedy classic - he really can't get his head around the idea that his attitudes to women are by some distance the least interesting thing about him (because, you know, I've never met somebody who's spent 27 years writing and drawing a single comic, but I've met a *lot* of people blaming their feelings of inadequacy on political correctness gone mad), can he?
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
00:05 / 02.04.04
I've only ever read the first couple of books (which I like) and intend to read the rest... though I have a "feeling" they'll make me angry.

That Onion interview... Christ, what a tosser.
 
 
FinderWolf
15:44 / 02.04.04
"You know, it's really quite unbelievable to me that you have 4,000 words in which to cover the longest sustained narrative in human history, and your first question is "Why an Aardvark?""

"Longest sustained narrative in human history"...he really is full of himself, in many bizarre and very off-putting ways, isn't he?
 
 
Warewullf
15:58 / 02.04.04
DS: I'm glad you think so.

For fuck sake, two questions in and Sim already comes across like a prick.

I really, really hate this guy and I'm glad I've never bought any of his stuff.
 
 
Warewullf
16:02 / 02.04.04
I'm not sure that the last couple of generations—Generation X and Generation Next, or whatever you want to call them—even know what a thought is, having been raised to be women.

I...he...how...he's such a cunt!
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:10 / 02.04.04
I agree with most of the reactions to that interview, but for me, the thing that got me the most was how self-defeating Sim is. Here he has the opportunity to win over a large audience of readers who have a great potential of taking his work seriously even in spite of his more extreme points of view, and the whole time he's acting like a child. He's constantly defensive and imagining arguments that the interviewer is not making, and he can't tell that the interviewer is basically on his side and respects his work. He's a paranoid wreck!

I understand why he's that way, and his distrust of how he is portrayed in the media is fairly justified. Sim comes off as a loon in this interview because he chose to act that way - if he were more reasonable, he could have made much better use of this opportunity. I've never seen a person more in need of a publicist in my life!

For a man who is all about "thinking" he really doesn't know the first thing about being practical. Even if he insists on ranting about leftists, and "feminist/homosexualists," he could at least define those things a bit better, because surely he must realize that this interview is going to be read primarily by people who have not read his essays. He doesn't even allow anyone to give him the benefit of the doubt, which is unfortunate.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
17:12 / 02.04.04
And as for the legacy of his work - you know, I really don't give a fuck if his work is preserved or not, because if Sim wasn't such a jackass throughout his life, he'd have more fans and supporters. He brought this all upon himself, and if his life's work ends up forgotten and unpreserved, then perhaps that is exactly what he deserves. It didn't have to be this way.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
20:34 / 02.04.04
"Longest sustained narrative in human history"...he really is full of himself, in many bizarre and very off-putting ways, isn't he?

Especially if he had made that up. Which he did not.

Hm. Unless the bible counts. Don't they change that shit every three weeks?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:34 / 02.04.04
Going back a bit in this thread, I have to say that I really hate the idea that the size/scope of Sim's project is enough to merit serious academic evaluation and archiving. I'm not saying that Cerebus isn't worthy, I just object to the notion that sprawl automatically qualifies a work of art for that kind of consideration. Are we talking about taking the project seriously, or is this about Guiness Book stuff?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:37 / 02.04.04
Also, this quote from the ADD interview is utterly repugnant in its misanthopy:

The biggest challenge was resisting the lure of conventional life -- marriage, children, family, friends and other frivolous diversions -- and to basically live my life on paper for the better part of twenty-six years.

Frivolous? FRIVOLOUS? The basic elements of human life are FRIVOLOUS? This is what happens to you when you're a hermetic shut-in for a few decades. This is not good.
 
 
Suedey! SHOT FOR MEAT!
20:56 / 02.04.04
"Longest sustained narrative in human history"...he really is full of himself, in many bizarre and very off-putting ways, isn't he?

Especially if he had made that up. Which he did not.

--------------------------------------------

I think mainly it's his need to point out his achievements in an incredibly pompous, conceited, manner at every turn that make one's stomach turn a little. It smacks of desperately wanting to validate his worthiness.

And as many others have pointed out in this thread - does it really matter?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:33 / 02.04.04
Well, he put all of his eggs in one basket, so to speak - he staked his entire creative career and sense of purpose self-worth on making an arbitrary number of comics. He's put his entire life on the line - he's got to be desperate for it to all be for something.
 
 
sleazenation
21:49 / 02.04.04
I don't think the question of Sim being a jackass or not has the slightest relevence to the value of his work. The The Bible,Mein Kampf, 120 days of Sodom, the importance of all these books remains no-matter what you might think of their writers or their views. Cerebus remains a unique achievement whichever way you cut it.

That's not to say Sim should be let of the hook for his for his views, neuroses and heap of other problems, but to petulently proclaim that he brought this all upon himself if his life's work does indeed go unpreserved seems to be kind of missing the point. The work, the 300 issues of cerebus, is already preserved in a multitude of comic collections.
 
 
sleazenation
22:25 / 02.04.04
Flux said...
I have to say that I really hate the idea that the size/scope of Sim's project is enough to merit serious academic evaluation and archiving.

I'm not sure what to make of this statement. What do you think are the parameters that define what is or is not worthy of serious academic evaluation and archiving - what do you think they should be?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
23:17 / 02.04.04
The Bible,Mein Kampf, 120 days of Sodom, the importance of all these books remains no-matter what you might think of their writers or their views. Cerebus remains a unique achievement whichever way you cut it.

Okay, now you're just being ridiculous. Those books have massive cultural and historical influence. Cerebus is just a comic that almost no one reads, and has little to no influence on culture at large. This is not a relevant comparison!

If Cerebus should be taken seriously, it should be because of its content and not because it just happens to the biggest and longest comic ever made. I mean, REALLY. If someone made a 300 hour film with a continuous narrative, would that automatically make it a great work? How about a piece of music which 300 days long? And why 300? It's all so Guinness Book-y.

It could be possible that Sim goes down in history not so much for making "the longest continuous narrative" in comics, but for proving that almost no one is willing to read a comic book of that length.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
23:26 / 02.04.04
I really think the issue of whether or not enough people really care about the work is crucial too - it's so typical of the comics industry to want to trumpet ANY achievement because it has so few. But if we're to bring academic archival into the matter, we have to bring Cerebus into the greater context of arts and culture and general. Since this is a work of practically zero cultural relevance, does it matter if it is preserved in the first place? Why should this work be preserved and not, say, the world's largest ball of rubber bands?

I'm not saying that Cerebus isn't worthy of preservation, I'm just dubious of the claim that it's worthy just because of how big it is and any other factor that makes it more of a curiosity than a grand work of art.

If no one cares about the work, and Sim has alienated so much of the planet that no one's willing to work with him or help him preserve his life's work, it's no one's fault but his own.
 
 
Catjerome
00:38 / 03.04.04
Reading the interview and the LiveJournal posts by the interviewer on her experience, I was peeved at first about Sim's behavior and responses, but when I reread them I had to wonder - does anyone know if Sim is genuinely mentally ill? His rants remind me of someone I know who has mental problems and from time to time calls up family members and raves angrily and accusingly on the phone.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
13:28 / 03.04.04
Okay. Here's the deal.

If we were talking about Cynicalman, or some stick-figured nonsense, then I would undertstand the mystification that some people are dealing with, but Cerebus demolished the boundaries of the sequential narrative pretty much every goddamned month. It's not about three hundred issues. It's not about three. It's about taking the baton that Will Eisner passed him and running through the fucking wall.

Politics aside, way way way way way the fuck aside, Cerebus created new ways to tell stories visually out of whole cloth.

If you don't feel like sitting through the whole comic, fine. If this interview is the first(or the first in depth) exposure you're having to the man, that's fine too. But, seriously, the fact that every (EVERY) discussion about the comic book talks about Dave's misanthropy and misogyny as opposed to Cerebus' much more rampant misanthropy and misogyny, especially in a thread that I created about the fucking comic, is starting to grate. You want to talk about misanthropy?

Cerebus threw a baby, kicked an old man off a roof, and frightened two men into suicide, just to get more gold. You want to talk about misogyny? Cerebus used his papal powers to marry a woman just so he wouldn't feel bad about raping her.

And, in issue 300, he got what he deserved.

Can we please talk about the goddamned motherfucking COMIC BOOK.

If not, fine, I shall abdicate this thread, some moderator can change the title and abstract, and I'll just go back to rereading the whole series and forming my own thoughts about the book and sharing them with the only other thing that seems to willing to take a look at the book on its own merits: my bedroom wall.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:27 / 03.04.04
But, seriously, the fact that every (EVERY) discussion about the comic book talks about Dave's misanthropy and misogyny as opposed to Cerebus' much more rampant misanthropy and misogyny, especially in a thread that I created about the fucking comic, is starting to grate.

Well, this is the logical end result of him ranting about these things EVERY chance that he gets. He's sabotaged his own legacy, and in a lot of ways, the man who has created the work has become far more interesting to most people than the work itself. Sim is like a car wreck that it is VERY hard to look away from, and that's his own doing.

If he truly wanted people to take his work seriously and not focus on his extreme beliefs he a) would not have put all of those essays in the comic itself and b) would stay on-message in interviews, focusing 100% on talking about the comic and refusing to answer questions which would bait him into ranting or making himself seem crazy.

I'll say it again: he brought this upon himself, and it didn't have to be this way.

A big part of the reason why no one in this thread or most other places want to discuss the comic is because almost no one has READ it. Sim has been giving people plenty of reasons for 26 years not to read his comic long before he started talking about feminism and leftists. Really, Cerebus seems as though it was designed every step of the way to alienate the vast majority of people on the planet, which is not surprising for a misanthropic hermit. It seems funny that after years and years of making choices that result in chipping away every last bit of potential audience that he's now upset that almost no one cares about the work as a whole.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:33 / 03.04.04
I suppose what really gets to me about Sim is the wasted potential. He could have put all that energy and time into projects that could have engaged with the world, but instead he chose to pursue a monomaniacal goal to the point where he alienated almost everyone and made a sprawling work that may be amazing but is too cumbersome to get most anyone interested. The way I see it is that Cerebus could be the greatest comic project ever, but if no one reads it, how much does that matter?
 
 
sleazenation
19:11 / 04.04.04
Well, this is the logical end result of him ranting about these things EVERY chance that he gets. He's sabotaged his own legacy, and in a lot of ways, the man who has created the work has become far more interesting to most people than the work itself. Sim is like a car wreck that it is VERY hard to look away from, and that's his own doing.


Flux, so you you have no desire to read cerebus based on your view of of its author garnered from a few interviews he's given? You haven't read Cerebus, right?

That's interesting. It's and an entirely valid reaction to have, but it certainly limits the the scope of your critique of Sim's work.

Benjamin Birdie - I guess the best response is to start discussing the work in question. But where do you begin ?

Structurally, I'm not sure claims that it is a unified 300 issue storyline really hold up - the first 200 issues are one storyline with the last 100 issues forming a coda of sorts to that. The coda contains a lot of interesting stuff, and continues some elements of the initial 200-issue narrative thrust but the change of focus is so jarring that its difficult to reconcile it as a 300 issue unified narrative.

I think the best way to approach cerebus is one collection at a time - i'd be interested in seeing an analysis of election politics as portrayed in Transmet and High Society/Church and State...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:38 / 04.04.04
Actually, I find that I would quite like to read Cerebus now, but I'm not sure if I really can make the investment of time and money.
 
 
houdini
22:05 / 04.04.04
Sim has been giving people plenty of reasons for 26 years not to read his comic long before he started talking about feminism and leftists. Really, Cerebus seems as though it was designed every step of the way to alienate the vast majority of people on the planet, which is not surprising for a misanthropic hermit.

I totally disagree with this statement. I would say, very strongly, that prior to, say, Melmoth (starting in #151) Cerebus was very accessible, very readable, and gathering steam as a comic book.

Sim had incredibly high sales for a b+w independent right through to around #200. He might've alienated a few fans with Melmoth, in that it was basically a recounting of the death of Oscar Wilde while Cerebus sits motionless and unblinking in a bar named Peter's, but many of them came back when the story "restarted" at the beginning of 'Flight' (#163).

AFAIK, it wasn't till after #200 and the end of the 'Mothers & Daughters' story that the readership really began to flag, and it was another couple of years before Sim's grasp on reality really began to slip. Yes, #186 cost him readers, but I think the general boringness of the strip after #200 cost him a lot more. People will put up with being offended more than they will put up with being bored.

In terms of achievements, Sim has a crazy list. I agree with El Birdie's comment about "running through the wall".

In terms of publishing, the length of the narrative, its self-contained nature, the fact that it was just two guys over all those years, the consistent nature of its quality, the self-publishing aspect and the fact that for many years Sim spearheaded the self-publishing movement are all remarkable. More than that, the notion of a long story broken into "novels" each of which were collected and kept in print, and much of which was written explicitly for the collections, is all stuff that has now become de rigeur in comics. And all of that started with Sim's treatment of Cerebus. He was there to support Bone, Strangers In Paradise, Thieves & Kings, Castle Waiting and a bunch of other b+w indy comics that are still going, and events like 'Spirits of Independence' did a huge amount to raise the profile of alternative comics in the medium. Hell, he was even one of the few who stood up for the Image seven when they left Marvel, while Byrne and those guys were dissing them for "disrespecting" Marvel's characters.

In terms of the actual comic, Cerebus was extremely formally innovative in its use of space, treatment of characters, and in terms of the types of stories that it told. Sure, the very early stuff was just barbarian pastiche, but by #25 it had solidly settled into being a thoroughly unique and original piece of work, something inherently un-pigeon-hole-able. And it stayed there for 275 more issues, without just building its own little racetrack and running round it time after time. I don't think any of the established books out there can be said to have continued to evolve in terms of their structure, approach and theme throughout their run. Even the end of, say, Sandman, is much like the beginning in terms of the ground that Gaiman is covering and what he's doing there. "The plot" moves along, but the nature of the storytelling is fairly static. In contrast, Cerebus was changing and moving all the way through.

Chareth - Give me a month. Work's kicking my ass at the moment, but I hope to find a weekend to devote to rereading all of 'Latter Days' and 'The Last Day' (all the Cerebus I have with me over here in the US). Once I've done that I'll come kick this thread back to life and we can jaw a bit.
 
  

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