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Right to own a gun

 
  

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SMS
05:47 / 03.03.04
Link

From his Abstract
Individuals have a prima facie right to own firearms. This right is significant in view both of the role that such ownership plays in the lives of firearms enthusiasts and of the self-defense value of firearms. Nor is this right overridden by the social harms of private gun ownership. These harms have been greatly exaggerated and are probably considerably smaller than the benefits of private gun ownership. And I argue that the harms would have to be at least several times greater than the benefits in order to render gun prohibition permissible.

I make no initial comment to this paper but ask for your reactions.
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:47 / 03.03.04
One of the difficulties in discussing this issue is the difference in culture between the US and Europe, say. Which is to say that there is an emotional appeal made by US gun advocates that is simply not felt in Europe. I don't own a gun, nor do I know anyone who does and I don't feel like my rights have been violated. I realise the article you link to is an argument rather than emotional appeal, but I think it is worth bearing these differences in mind.

There are a couple of problems with his argument that I can see, off the top of my head. He talks about gun prohibition, but fails to base this on a real example of prohibition. The UK seems like an obvious model where one can own a gun, but this is an exception rather than a rule. You still have gun sports and hunting, but licensing is much stricter than in the US. One could claim that this isn't prohibition, but strict control and while technically right, this would be disingenuous. I'm pretty sure that gun advocates would say that the UK gun laws amounted to prohibition.

Another thing he fails to address is availability of guns. His US statistics all fail to take this into account. Specifically, in a country where gun ownership is simple and widespread, you might expect that there are more gun crimes. Changing the law at the state level has no, or little impact on this since the guns are circulating freely. There are counter arguments, of course, but I don't think one can justify dismissing the comparisons with other countries as easily as he does. Competing in an arms race is perfectly rational once one is in it, but this says nothing about the logic of multilateral disarmament.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:41 / 03.03.04
It seems that for the purposes of this argument "prohibition" means any form of control other than the right to buy guns and to carry concealed handguns, the point being, according to Huener's argument, that the right to carry guns is interconditional with the right to self-defence, and that since people have the right to self-defence when outside their home, and that when outside their homes people favour concealed handguns, so therefore the possession of concealed handguns is a logical right extending from the right to self-defence.

This strikes me as sophistry, essentially; although the writer claims that he is not making a case for absolute rights, he is assuming as an absolute that the right to self-defence entails the right to do what the author feels is appropriate in the name of self-defence. After this bait and switch, the subsequent argument, that the impact of firearms as a positive outweigh those of self-defence as a negative, is a question not of rights but of utility, and not a very convincing one. So, what is to stop one from keeping around a rocket launcher, a tank or a nuclear weapon in the interests of self-defence, all of which have significantly increased the capacity of individuals and states to defend themselves over the years. Like firearms, nuclear weapons are almost never used, but provide significant deterrence. Therefore, logically, the right to carry nuclear devices should be universal. His rebuttal (objection #3) to this is weak in the extreme, as it demands a) that a device demonstrate a recreational or self-defence usage to be eligible for the right to be borne as a firearm is, even if the recreational usage is never exploited (for more on this, see below) and b) that the right to bear arms is based on the (arguable) status of the firearm as the single most effective means of self-defence available (that is, presumably, that the right is in fact not to carry guns, but to defend oneself with the most efficient possible tool, which must presumably be a large explosive device keyed to one's heartbeat), rather than anything fundamental to the gun (including its recreational uses). Arguably, there is a point at which one's expression of the right to self-defence is considered too infringing of the right of others. For example, generally people might be said to have a right not to be the subjects of violence, which would be infringed by the casual use of high explosive or nerve agents in the act of self-defence taken by an unconnected other against an unconnected other.

In which case, why draw the line specifically at firearms? If we look at what characterises the firearm, what can we ssee that marks it out from the knife or the tank?

1) The function of a firearm is to send a projectile at speed to a target at some distance.
2) That is the *only* function of a firearm - it can also be used to gather food, to pass the time intimidate, to deter attackers and to stir tea, but all these (except the final one) are based on the fact that its actual operative function is the acceleration of a projectile through space to strike a target.

The applications of the firearm could be anti-personnel, sporting (either target shooting or field sports) or have one of a couple of other applications, but again it is defined by its ability to strike at distance - when equipped with a gun, one is equipped with a means to kill at distance. This strikes me as quite similar to the possession of nerve agents or high explosive. One *can* argue that the gun has a greater clarity of affect than nerve agents, but one might equally say that, once discharged, a bullet travels until it strikes something (an intervening object or the ground). Therefore, a firearm, once discharged, cannot be guaranteed to strike the intended target - it lacks specificity, in a way that, for example, a breadknife does not.

So, it feels to me like the idea that by preventing people from carrying firearms, one is in effect conspiring to murder them, is invalid unless one is prepared to challenge the same prevention of the possession of tanks, bombs, bombs, guns, in your head, in your head and they are fighting on the same terms. In effect, one has to admit that the right to self-defence can be abrogated by social contract. The social contract in the UK, for example, is that we ask individuals not to possess unlicensed firearms, or carry concealed weapons *of any kind* (knives, knuckle dusters, stunguns, guns, tanks, bombs, bombs, guns, in your head etc), and offer in exchange the greatest possible surety that the persons around you will be similarly constrained, in part by having an unambiguous prohibition against the aforementioned.

The alternative the author of the paper implies is a model where, if any person likely to use their firearm for a purpose other than recreation or self-defence is surrounded by a large number of people unlikely to use their firearm for any purpose other than recreation or self-defence, then the balance will always tilt towards the upholding of the right to self-defence, and all will be well. I am unconvinced that this is a defence of a right, rather than a consequentialist analysis of the consequences of the right to self-defence being defined in a particular fashion.

Much is also made of the function of firearms outside that of infringing others' right not to be attacked - a gun may be for sport, or simply to satisfy a desire to own one or more guns. So, buying a gun might be an act equivalent to buying, say, a kettle - one entirely separate from any use of the gun as a weapon.

I propose, therefore, a restricted Seller Reponsibility principle which holds that a seller is responsible for the criminal use of his product only if (i) the product has no morally legitimate uses, (ii) on the information available to the seller, there is a substantial probability, in an individual sale, that the buyer intends to use the product in a morally objectionable manner, or (iii) the seller willfully or negligently fails to take reasonable steps to reduce the chances of selling to criminal users. Condition (i) [323] does not apply to firearms. While (ii) and (iii) can apply to gun sales, they need not. Hence, although some wrongful gun sales undoubtedly occur, there is no reason to believe all gun sales to be wrong.


This depends on an absolutist position being taken re: the application of the potential usage of the weapon. When selling a weapon, if one believes that the probability of the gun being used for sport or display outweighs the possibility that it might be used for immoral purposes. Again, the way the UK handles this is illuminating. If one can demonstrate *to a particular extent* that one's purchase of a firearm is for a non-felonious purpose (for example, one is a farmer, a grouse hunter or a member of a sporting gun club), one may purchase the firearm. If one can propose no good reason (that is a reason not inolving the use of the firearm to threaten, injure our kill, either in offence *or* self-defence), then one is not alowed legally to purchase or own the firearm.

Of course, this depends on the idea that the purchasing of a firearm for "self-defence" is not a good thing, which he would strenuously deny. However, the question here is that of certitude. It is possible to determine with some licensing or regulation whether one is likely to be purchasing a gun for sport. It is rather harder to determine whether somebody with no recreational or vocational need for a gun is purchasing it for self-defence. In effect, "I am buying this firearm as an aid to my right to self-defence" means "I am buying this firearm in order to use it in those situations where I believe its use to be appropriate". So, we come back to a form of the kettle question - the unlicensed and unrestricted sale of firearms presupposes that a proliferation of firearms, to be used where the holders of those firearms believe it to be appropriate, is an unambiguous *good*, and thus that the right to purchase firearms is the duty to uphold a good. Frankly, I'm not sure that duck will hunt...
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:07 / 03.03.04
The important question I think we need to look at is: "Is the state somehow more responsible than the individual in terms of gun control?"

Or maybe: "Who should control the guns? The government or the people?"
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:55 / 03.03.04
Very acute, Chris. And your next question is, given that the government will always have more guns and better guns, does it actually matter , in that sense, whether or not the people have guns at all?
 
 
Linus Dunce
23:50 / 03.04.04
How about, "if the state can't or won't protect me then by what right does it proscribe my owning a firearm?"
 
 
SMS
00:50 / 04.04.04
Linus, please elaborate. In what sense does the state fail to protect?
 
 
Linus Dunce
15:16 / 04.04.04
Experience tells me that the state in which I live provides only nominal protection from assault and robbery by my fellow subjects. Nevertheless, I happily give up the right to own a certain piece of equipment, a firearm, because I can see that it is for the common good that the population are not allowed such powerful weapons.

However, were I living somewhere that had less effective police, or perhaps belonged to a group that had no reason to expect help from them, why should I keep my end of the bargain? Is there really no point at which I regain a right to own a firearm? Do the needs of the many always outweigh the needs of the few?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:52 / 04.04.04

However, were I living somewhere that had less effective police, or perhaps belonged to a group that had no reason to expect help from them, why should I keep my end of the bargain? Is there really no point at which I regain a right to own a firearm? Do the needs of the many always outweigh the needs of the few?


Ah, well, at that point the bargain has already been defaulted upon, hasn't it? I mean, if the bargain is that the state limits your access to firearms in exchange for an assurance that others' access to firearms will also be limited, and that the punishment for violating this rule will be enforced, then the "I have the right to defend myself in the most efficient manner possible" right is deferred, or more precisely abrogated to the state. If there is no state, or no state able to take on the defence of its citizens, the question then becomes whether one is now entitled to take whatever steps one deems appropriate for self-defence, and then what those steps are...
 
 
Linus Dunce
19:55 / 04.04.04
Indeed, but how can one dismiss the firearm as inappropriately dangerous -- or decide the breadknife the best tool for the job -- before the fact?
 
 
The Prince of All Lies
20:03 / 04.04.04
I was gonna write something very elaborate but Haus has done that very well already. So I'm just gonna say that the guy who wrote that article is a moron and the whole purpose of the article seems to be to justify posessing firearms. The funny thing is that he actually uses the "emotional attachment to weapons" as an argument. That man is an idiot, obviously, he's basically admitting that since guns make people feel more confident (not only because of its power, but for its phallic connotations), then, in that same train of thought, the only reason not to let kids handle firearms is because they're underage. But the way he says it, everyone has a right to defend themselves, then, what the hell, let's all walk in the streets loaded with guns, so if anyone looks at us in a bad way, you could have a texas showdown in the middle of the streets...
Besides, come on, man, you don't live in Bosnia or Colombia, or somewhere where you could be in serious danger everyday... the media instills fear by making us think the world's more dangerous than it really is. US networks are constantly looking for new "frightening things that could kill you in your own house"..remember all that stupid nonsense about killer egyptian bees or whatever that was on tv last year?
Crime rates aren't higher than before, it's just public perception..if you wanna have a gun in your house, it's your right, but carrying them around town is stupid. That way you are bound to get in trouble and someone's gonna die.
 
 
Corrigan
22:10 / 17.04.04
Guns? Ban them in my opinion. And I don't just mean any old handgun, I mean hunting guns and sports guns too. Guns are tools made for one thing, to kill. Personally, I don't agree with anyone who says that the ability to not own a gun is against their human rights, because the be killed by somebody with one is also against a person's human rights. Guns mean that people can become easy targets to bullys and thugs, because guns don't need a person to have physical contact with the person they want to hurt.
 
 
Rev. Orr
00:05 / 19.04.04
Is it possible that people are being distracted by the more outlandish claim that gun-ownership is a fundamental human right (as opposed to a constitutional right or established social pact) so as not to question the two assumptions underpinning the gun lobby's position: a) freedom of access is the norm or 'natural' position and any deviation from that requires justification and b) that guns are a defensive weapon?

To the second point, a gun is a projectile weapon which cannot be used to block an assailants attacks but only to inflict harm on an opponent. It can be argued that the threat or display of a gun can be used to intimidate or hold off an attacker, but it's primary use and design are offensive. Any sword, staff, blade, cudgel or even most improvised weapons serve a dual purpose in attack and defense; one can block or parry as well as strike. As a ranged weapon, a gun offers parity of offensive capability - an individual MAD as it were - and, as such, to term it a means of 'self-defense' is disingenuous.

To the first point, that it is the responsibility of authority to justify restriction of access rather than the individual to justify ownership, one has to look again at the design purpose of the gun. A gun is designed to kill another individual, or at the very least inflict serious harm. The social compact underpinning any society is that citizens are not permitted to kill or maim their fellows. Justifications and adjustments after the fact such as reasonable assumptions of jeopardy or self-defense, fail to change the fact that the action itself is prohibited with minor exceptions rather than permitted with conditional curbs. An item designed to infringe on such a fundamental taboo of an organised society should therefore bear the assumption of prohibition unless justified by circumstance. Outside the comfy ring of theory, yes, guns will reach the hands of the violent, criminal or socially 'undesirable', and yes, there is little inherantly threatening to society at large in the existance of target shooting as a sport. However, I fail to see a theoretical prima facie right to universal gun ownership (or even universal potential gun ownership) as the abstract posits.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:31 / 19.04.04
A gun is simply a tool. The NRA recognise that but they always fail to accept that all tools are limited by the state and the author of the linked article does exactly the same thing. There are rules against owning sharpened swords, rules about chemicals that you can use to clean domestic and industrial premises, rules against drugs and rules on the age at which you may purchase a penknife and guns should not be treated any differently. We have differing rights over tools depending on their potential danger. Guns are clearly dangerous, the effects can be forced upon others and thus they should be controlled. It's simple and it's far more socially obvious than the arguments that the author of the linked article is putting forward. We have as much right to guns as to anything else that could potentially kill someone if we put it to its wrong use.

When Huemer says I argue that the harms would have to be at least several times greater than the benefits in order to render gun prohibition permissible, he simply fails to take in to account that his gun is not part of his arm.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
11:52 / 15.05.04
In a perfect society, it would be acceptable "Not to own a gun", or "acceptable to live non violently".
 
 
Jester
13:22 / 15.05.04
freedom of access is the norm or 'natural' position and any deviation from that requires justification

Yes, I think that's exactly the problem. In the States, it's obviously been ingrained in a way that it hasn't in Europe that it's a 'human right' to own a gun.

But, baring in mind that if you accept the concept of rights that are somehow innate to being human, they've got to be based on some kind of generally felt and agreed upon criteria. Isn't the fact that in the UK no-one (I think?) feels particularly like their human rights are being infringed by not being able to own personal firearms some evidence that it's *not* a human right?
 
 
SMS
16:30 / 16.05.04
There are rules against owning sharpened swords, rules about chemicals that you can use to clean domestic and industrial premises, rules against drugs and rules on the age at which you may purchase a penknife and guns should not be treated any differently.

I believe Huemer's position on drugs, penknives, and swords are similar to his position on guns. I don't know how he feels about age requirements.
 
 
Jackie Susann
03:39 / 17.05.04
Maybe I only think this because I don't live in the States, but come on - this guy is hilarious! I love the part where he compares the relation between owning a gun and committing a crime to reading The Communist Manifesto and overthrowing the government. His analogies are fantastic.
 
 
Hieronymus
03:57 / 17.05.04
Maybe it's because I do live in the States... but for some reason that analogy doesn't sound that absurd to me.
 
 
sdv (non-human)
09:33 / 17.05.04
Of course Guns should in general be banned from personal ownership. Where Huemar's argument collapses is that he appears to regard the following statistics as acceptable - in the year of 911 an event in which 2700 people died, 10,000 plus people died as a result of gunshot wounds in the USA (figures from the guardian newspaper).

I admit to thinking personally that the statistics argument is amusing but in moral and ethical terms irrelevant and I only raise it to suggest that Haus's clear exposition is actually missing the problem, namely that Huemar regards 10,000 unnecessary deaths as acceptable. Which does rather place him on the imoral side of the equation.

I wonder if the justification for the ownership of weapons is not based on the construction of the human condition as being a reactive victim. That is on the fear of Others doing the individual subject harm. What is it that generates that level of fear in a culture that the right to bear arms is considered necessary ?
 
 
Lurid Archive
10:05 / 17.05.04
Aren't you trying to have it both ways here, sdv? How can an argument whose absence leads one to miss the point also be irrelevant? How can the consideration of the number of deaths caused be beside the point, while a failure to consider some number of deaths is a damning critique?
 
 
cusm
20:26 / 07.06.04
given that the government will always have more guns and better guns, does it actually matter , in that sense, whether or not the people have guns at all?

Rather defeatist view there, Haus. But you forget, even a shoddy .22 can kill a cop. The situation is drasticly different when both parties are armed, even if one is still vastly superior to the other. Its still a fight. Where when one is armed and the other not the armed party is simply In Control.

Really, the rabid support for gun ownership stateside comes from an ideal that the people should be able to, if necessary, mount an armed resistence to a tyrannical and corrupt government for the purposes of revolution. We're a country based on bloody revolution so the ideal remains dear to us. While the might of modern military makes this fairly impossible under any sort of direct confrontation, an armed populous can at least hold a town against bandits in a time of lawlessness or make it unappealing enough for the army to devote resources towards its occupation. Enough of that sort of thing in the long run is the sort that wins wars, even if individuals battles can't be won. See the deteriorating situation in Iraq as evidence. So, there is a basis for the "cold dead hands" level of support amongst NRA folks. It really makes a difference when everything goes sour, as may yet happen under the current administration, making it all the more passionate a subject.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:46 / 11.06.04
Aren't you trying to have it both ways here, sdv? How can an argument whose absence leads one to miss the point also be irrelevant? How can the consideration of the number of deaths caused be beside the point, while a failure to consider some number of deaths is a damning critique?

There's a marked difference between the practical and moral arguments here Lurid. They might sit together overall but it's pretty obvious that the numbers of deaths is a simple statistic and utterly separate from any actual moral decision made. The statistic should be considered as abhorrent because the government is allowing that many people die a year... practically it shouldn't be allowing citizens to hurt one another. However you have to take in to account that it's not absolutely immoral to kill someone. You can however argue that to own a gun, a weapon of destruction, in order to cause harm even in self defence must obviously be immoral. So both the statistical and moral arguments are relevant but don't necessarily relate to one another and furthermore the second argument is philosophically more important if not practically so.

What is it that generates that level of fear in a culture that the right to bear arms is considered necessary ?

Well that's very difficult to answer- is there a model for civilisations anywhere? I'd be interested to know the similarities between America now and some other countries when they had immense amounts of power. I often wonder if the kind of self destruction that gun culture allows is directly related to the status of imperialistic power?
 
 
Linus Dunce
19:57 / 11.06.04
I often wonder if the kind of self destruction that gun culture allows is directly related to the status of imperialistic power?

An interesting idea; difficult to prove though. England had an Empire once. And what happened in the USSR?

Isn't the fact that in the UK no-one (I think?) feels particularly like their human rights are being infringed by not being able to own personal firearms some evidence that it's *not* a human right?

That merely proves that most people in the UK think guns are a bad thing. We are not, I think, the archetype of humanity. There is intelligent life in other countries, and some of it has different politics.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:22 / 15.06.04
But human rights shouldn't be political. Claiming that a gun ownership is a human right is like saying that we have the right to own a knife and fork or a dressing gown.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
15:11 / 15.06.04
How can the idea of human rights not be a political one?
 
 
cusm
13:55 / 16.06.04
But we do have the right to own a knife, fork, or dressing gown. Or rather, to not have said dressing gown taken away from us. That's along the rights to own basic property.

This is a bit more sensitive, being a right to maintain the ability to defend yourself. It ties into rights for continued life.

The ethics and claims boil down to about this:

You have the right to own a gun.
You do not have the right to attack someone with it.
But if you are attacked, you have the right to use it to defend yourself with.

The anti-gun view is that by removing all the guns, the problem is neatly resolved. The problem being, you can't get rid of them all. They will always be available on the black market for those who want them. And if the average person is unable to have one of their own, they are at a substantial disadvantage against an agressor. Prohibition doesn't stop gun crime, it just removes the natural counter to it: that the other guy might be packing too.

So, it becomes a basic right to defend yourself. That there will be others armed is a given, even in London. You can't stop them all. If you could, then this would be moot. And hell, I'd be all for a world completely without ranged weapons as Kung Fu Masters like myself would again rule the land from mountain top pagodas where the peasents below learn to fear the power of the One Eyed Leaping Toad Technique. But being that you can't round them all up, the only other alternative is to allow the ability to defend against them. And Ninjas.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:24 / 16.06.04
Human Rights aren't about politics, they're about just and equal treatment and it's simply our system that makes them political. Look, here is the European Convention on Human Rights and here is the Universal Declaration. They give us the right to freedom and yes, they dictate the kind of politics we engage with but to say that our rights are entirely political is something that I refuse to accept because that means that I can't believe that every human being should necessarily be held under Article 25 of the Universal Declaration.

Moreover Cusm you'll note that the Declaration does not state anywhere in the text that ownership is a Human Right. We have the right to defend ourselves but we do not have the right to own a weapon or a dressing gown for that matter.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
19:46 / 16.06.04
Hmmm, maybe we both mean something entirely different by 'politics' then.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:19 / 16.06.04
So, it becomes a basic right to defend yourself. That there will be others armed is a given, even in London. You can't stop them all.

*Even if you are armed*. That is the part you have forgotten, cusm. If you construct a view where a measurable number of people are out to kill and eat you, then as soon as more than one of them catches you with equal armament, you're toast. It's the thinking that leads to arms races and, ultimately, to Leaptopia.

which is a shame, because your first point had some merit - if one looks at Congo, for example, on can see that unarmed villagers are unable to put up any resistance to lightly-armed guerrillas, and as such have no option but to flee. Now, if they were also lightly-armed, they could notionally either scare off their opponents, who would presumably either have to select a new village to terrorise or, if all the villagers were lightly-armed, settle down and form their *own* lightly-armed village. Alternatively, pitched battle would ensue, and the villagers would be killed, which would at least solve the refugee problem.

Now, when we apply this to the US, we come up against the practical problem that the issue would not be lightly-armed guerrillas, but the best-equipped army in the world, operating in its own backyard, with none of the cultural, linguistic or geographical hindrances they might face in, say, Iraq. Fortunately, a counterbalance of sorts exists - the well-equipped and well-trained National Guard. After that, you are down to a lot of people with limited training, limited resources and limited organisational capacities. With guns.

Which is sort of a problem. If we are being charitable, we can presume that it is useful to have an armed citizenry in order to resist the onslaught of a government that has declared war on its own people, through acts of guerrilla warfare and terror. Problem here, though, is that we appear to have an armed citizenry that is in certain cases prepared to indulge in acts of guerrilla warfare and terror *despite the fact that they are not currently subject to the onslaught of a government that has declared war on its own people, or at least not *those* own people.*

It's an issue, and one which I think ties back into the discussion of rights.
 
 
Linus Dunce
22:34 / 16.06.04
Which is sort of a problem. If we are being charitable, we can presume that it is useful to have an armed citizenry in order to resist the onslaught of a government that has declared war on its own people, through acts of guerrilla warfare and terror. Problem here, though, is that we appear to have an armed citizenry that is in certain cases prepared to indulge in acts of guerrilla warfare and terror *despite the fact that they are not currently subject to the onslaught of a government that has declared war on its own people, or at least not *those* own people.*

Well, I'm sure the US population is more than grateful for your charity. But are you sure that life is that violent in the US? I seem to remember being able to pop down to the shops without being shot dead on at least one occasion. I don't remember seeing guerillas roaming the streeets unchecked. Of course, in Merry Olde England, I can skip around town with my eyes shut with nary a care in the world ...

Two things:

Perhaps an armed populace is a deterrent to governmental abuse. Outside the UK. In another country.

Perhaps, in some countries, owning a knife and fork and dressing gown is seen as a political act rather than a right.. What, for instance, would Chairman Mao have said of western eating irons and a blue Winceyette number?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
05:59 / 17.06.04
Well, I'm sure the US population is more than grateful for your charity. But are you sure that life is that violent in the US? I seem to remember being able to pop down to the shops without being shot dead on at least one occasion. I don't remember seeing guerillas roaming the streeets unchecked. Of course, in Merry Olde England, I can skip around town with my eyes shut with nary a care in the world ...

Try not to look for fights. Try not to seek attention rather than add to the discussion. Try not to sink to "Merrie England" jibes. If the extent of your ability to contribute here is "Who's better - us or them?", then I suggest starting a thread in the Conversation.

I was thinking more of the Oklahoma City bombing, the Beltway Sniper - acts which appeared to be seen as a military response to a perceived occupation. Meanwhile, we *also*, of course, have the drearily regular mass shootings, which also occur in other Western nations with stringer controls on guns. Offhand, I can think of two in Britain in the last 20 years.

Another interesting thing here is that the US, unlike, say, the UK, is founded on the assumption that certain rights are "self-evident". This is a very useful tool in state-building, but from a philosophical position it's a bit of a problem...
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:35 / 17.06.04
Perhaps an armed populace is a deterrent to governmental abuse. Outside the UK. In another country.

Would you like to name that country? Perhaps you'd also like to give an argument for a better quality of life there and outline the term governmental abuse because you see I rather think you're putting forward a case for great, great responsibility to lie on individual citizens and frankly I don't think a good life arises from that sort of pressure.
 
 
Linus Dunce
17:07 / 17.06.04
Actually, what I should try to do is not sit down at my computer when I'm full of Leffe.

If I wanted attention, I'd add my real name!
 
 
Linus Dunce
17:11 / 17.06.04
I offer the above as context rather than justification, excuse or retraction of my earlier comment.

rather think you're putting forward a case for great, great responsibility to lie on individual citizens and frankly I don't think a good life arises from that sort of pressure.

It is tricky. But what would your definition of a good life be? And might it be different to someone else's?
 
  

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