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Why is this boring me?

  
  

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8===>Q: alyn
17:16 / 19.10.04
I'd like to stress that I'm not claiming any high ground here--I've been a jerk as often as not, and I don't espect everyone to pitch in and show me a good time. I'm only trying to explain, to myself as much as anyone else, the feelings of disgust and/or boredom that keep me from enjoying Barbelith as much as I used to.

You'll have to give examples before I understand that. If you mean that people are criticised for trolling or launching personal attacks, then I admit that is irritating. As are trolling and personal attacks.

I'm not really prepared to do that right now, Haus, though I do understand your point in this matter. My argument in general is the oft-voiced, seldom heeded one that trolls thrive on attention and if one ignores them they fuck off. It sucks to have to be disciplined and tolerant around irritating people, but it sucks more to have every discussion degrade into a group spanking session--or, as I believe has happened here, to lose the sense that anyone is welcome to contribute.

But if we look at your trolling of the China Mieville thread, I'd say you managed to come significantly under the level of discussion.

I was proving a point to myself here, Haus, and in order to prove it I couldn't state the premise. My initial posts used strong images to express a perfectly valid opinion about China Mieville. With one exception, other posters responded to the imagery, not the opinion, and I responded instinctively. It was unfair of me to misuse the thread, but I was trying to find something out.

I would say further that your analysis is simply wrong - you have identified two possible approaches to criticism, but have not identified all of them.

I think I've identified the only two we ever see around here.

=> How many vocal n00bs in the last year have been called suits of one kind or another? Why do you care if they are suits?

Actually, not many who have not been suits.

Okay, but did it matter that they were suits? Did we get anything out of calling troll? I mean, we've been over this.

Other boards demand that you use your "real" name, or that you never change it. It's just one of those things.

But I'm not talking about other boards, I'm talking about this one. The methods I'm talking about are not Tom's responsibility alone, and I'm not describing anything that hasn't been discussed a jillion times. Part of what I'm talking about is the way people point the Troll-stick at anyone who does anything unconventional. It happened with the Barbelith 500 threads (which I cannot seem to get over), and seems to happen whenever someone expresses an unpopular opinion. I have no new troll-handling methods to recommend. I am bitching because we are so afraid of trolls that we have chosen to be tiresome.
 
 
Ganesh
18:31 / 19.10.04
My argument in general is the oft-voiced, seldom heeded one that trolls thrive on attention and if one ignores them they fuck off

Well, this is certainly often voiced in a kind of 'all you need to do to achieve enlightenment is deny all earthly gratification - now go do it!' kinda way - and, generally speaking, it is the best way to cope with obviously attention-seeking behaviour, online and off.

Problem is, the more individuals who have to co-ordinate their ignoring, the more problematic this approach. We have howevermanythousand registered members, and ooh, maybe a hundred-odd regular(ish) posters? In practice, achieving a consensus view that X is indeed trolling and X should therefore be ignored outright is close-to-impossible. There's inevitably the poster (ficsuit or no) ready to cry censorship and jump to X's defence. Cue lengthy to-and-fro explanations, cue big troll hardon and consequent flame-spunking.

(With the more persistent trolls, there've been many, many attempts to find a way around this cycle, some of which have led to Real Life threats.)

Also, even if everyone can agree that yes, X is a troll, and yes, X's trolling ought to be ignored by all, there is, as you say, the problem of our being sufficiently "disciplined" as a large group to hold to such a party line - particularly in the face of extreme provocation. It's no great surprise that, particularly with the low-level irritant varieties of trolling, people do respond. Sometimes this can be effective, transforming an acrimonious bout of trolling into a silly Morrissey/monkey/lime shower gel meme. These are the times I like Barbelith best, I think; when it succeeds in polishing turds.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:43 / 19.10.04
It happened with the Barbelith 500 threads (which I cannot seem to get over)

I'm afraid I have. What were they?
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
19:36 / 19.10.04
Oh - Flux and Q and me and some other people write ridiculously long-winded story that starts with Flux claiming Barbelith is in danger; this gets taken in a spirit other than was intended for reasons which may have had a lot to do with bad timing; somebody says that nobody should ever make jokes about the Russian Mafia ever; things more-or-less return to normal once the story becomes more openly ridiculous...

I don't really see it as damning of anybody in retrospect, although the Russian Mob thing still makes me laugh.
 
 
ibis the being
19:53 / 19.10.04
I'm sorry, I certainly don't want to insult Mr. Haircare or anyone else inthread, but I don't understand this complaint. I've experienced this happening in real life too - like this one friend I have who comes over to hang out with my friends and me and is always bored. We'll be having a fine time drinking beers and talking and playing darts, and she'll say, "this sucks, I hate darts, why don't we do something fun." Well, we were all having fun, if you have a better idea let's hear it.
 
 
Sekhmet
20:00 / 19.10.04
Everyone does realize this thread was started in 2002, right?

JSA...
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
20:10 / 19.10.04
I'm working on it, Ibis! To wit:

Why not start some threads in the Switchboard or Gathering about direct action?

Because the only revolution that means a damn is the revolution of the self. I have attempted to lampoon the behavior I think is responsible--the behavior that is, not the individuals--on the theory that you can't criticize something effectively if you're not aware of it in yourself, but that has only made me feel isolated, stupid, and bitter. I'm not suggesting a policy overhaul, either. I understand that there are good reasons for our anti-troll measures, our sometimes hysterical response to behavior lying outside the Barbenorm, and all that. I'm complaining (eg, trying to identify a problem, but not necessarily suggesting a solution and certainly not assigning blame) about the result, which is a Barbelith that is more insular, less respectful of diverse opinion, less challenging and less interesting than it used to be.

Just look at the Barbequotes thread. It's moribund.

Or am I wrong? I came here immediately after the biggest troll fiasco, when membership was frozen and there was talk of shutting down altogether. Maybe the period I remember as the "good old days" was an abnormal one.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:21 / 19.10.04
Just look at the Barbequotes thread. It's moribund.

I don't know - possibly a contributing factor in that was that the number of people on the bottom rung of Barbelith reached a self-sustaining level, and the others moved off in disgust. Or do you just mean that it's not to your taste? Or that it is not added to as often as it used to be? I still don't entirely understand the complaint...

Maybe if we start with intention. I'd certainly like Barbelith to be what I would call better. That would mean, for me, people like Mister Disco, Dread Pirate Crunchy, Deva, Persephone, GGM, Ganesh, Flybs, fred, Kit-Cat Club and a whole bunch of other people regularly contributing to the Head Shop. It would involve a far more active Books section with, with the utmost kindness, a broader range of books. And so on. I think my ideal Barbelith is possibly different to your ideal Barbelith, but I do have some ideas about what it would involve. What would your ideal Barbelith involve? How would it be different? To start small, what would happen differently in the Barbequotes thread?
 
 
HCE
22:18 / 19.10.04
But! But! I don't go into Headshop because of you!

Unless you mean some other fred, in which case never mind.
 
 
■
22:46 / 19.10.04
But! But! I don't go into Headshop because of you!

Sentiment echoed. Some of us are just a bit too wussy to step in there. We try elsewhere, though.

Yours,
The Bottom Rung

ps. Books? You expect us to touch paper that others might have handled? DISEASE! Call the firemen!
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
00:13 / 20.10.04
Hmmm...

In the 2 1/2 years since I started this thread, I've gone through a long stretch of involvement with/interest in the site which has since waned. I don't know that it really has anything to do w/Barbelith in particular, especially as I don't recognize anything markedly different in the site on the rare occasion that I visit of late. I think it just doesn't fit me properly anymore or something.
 
 
w1rebaby
00:19 / 20.10.04
Well, we all put on weight over time, it's nothing to be ashamed of.
 
 
The Return Of Rothkoid
01:53 / 20.10.04
Man, I lost weight and now this place doesn't fit me any more. Barbelith is my Big Man's Pants, alas.

I just don't come on here that often any more as I don't feel so connected to the group as a whole. I'd like to say it's not due to the fact that I'm not in the UK, but I'm afraid it probably is, particularly given that my connection with the board was largely based on knowing people IRL who posted on here, living near to Tom, that kinda thing.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
08:10 / 20.10.04
Something I've never quite understood: when people say they're scared of the Head Shop, do they mean they find the level of discussion very intimidating and possibly even hard to understand, or do they mean they're scared by the possibility that someone might flame them? If it's the former, I was right there with you for the first however many months of joining Barbelith, and still am on the rare occasions when anyone brings up Deleuze, Guitar-y, or any of the other European guys whose names I can't always spell. If it's the latter though... it strikes me that these days the Head Shop is one of places where you'd have to be most off-topic or obnoxious to provoke people into attacking you. Isn't it?
 
 
Alex's Grandma
08:32 / 20.10.04
Personally, I tend to avoid posting on the Head Shop because I'd rather not a) lower the tone, b) make a fool of myself, or c) get called on the fact that a lot of the time I really don't know what I'm talking about.
 
 
Ganesh
08:34 / 20.10.04
I think sometimes one can be attacked in the Head Shop for not reading the thread properly, and repeating an earlier point - which is as it should be, I think, but the volume and depth of discussion in the Head Shop archives perhaps deters people from putting in the time and effort?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:52 / 20.10.04
I conbfess that I would have thought so... partly in recognition of the changing population of Barbelith, the HS is getting progressively more tolerant, I think... of course, a lot also depends on how emotive the topic (gun control, "affectation"...), but I'd say that if you come in without your gunbelt you should be pretty fearless. On the other hand, there is still the danger that the HS may subject your statements to a degree and depth of study that the Conversation, say, *usually* won't...

Still, if my presence in the Head Shop is keeping people out of it, I'll stop posting in the Head Shop. Simple enough...
 
 
Alex's Grandma
09:34 / 20.10.04
Which is as it should be, I think

Yeah I think so too. Arguably, it takes that much more time not just to read through a head shop thread properly, especially if it's linked, but also to compose a half-decent reply.

And while that's fine, pretty clearly, and is the point after all, I suppose, er, *working* from home I do have to watch that, plus a lot of the time I'd rather talk about Steve, y'know ?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:47 / 20.10.04
Oh, please don't stop posting in the HS, Haus (or anyone else for that matter)... I enjoy reading the Headshop very much, but rarely find myself contributing to it - largely because most of the more theoretical topics are outside my knowledge set, and I'd rather learn than say something irrelevant. And in many of the less theoretical threads, I find that often other people have said what I would have said, adn I'd be restricted to offering personal experience or agreement...

I'd like to be able to contribute more, but in Barbelith terms my special interests are quite obscure (apart from slash, obviously).
 
 
Loomis
09:55 / 20.10.04
The obvious cause of any perceived problems with the board is simply that there is less activity. If ten threads are active and three of them are rife with behaviour x, then it's going to seem as though behaviour x is everywhere. Whereas if thirty threads are active then that's not the case. The same diversity is probably still here, but it's less noticeable because there are fewer opportunities to observe it.

The simple solution: post more and start more topics. If all the posters who rarely start topics force themselves to start one a week then there will be more to discuss. I know I often refrain from starting topics for fear that there'll be no response, but I might try a few. The worst case scenario is that they'll sink. Not exactly traumatic.
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
12:42 / 20.10.04
I don't read the Headshop because I'm not sure I buy the concept of "theory". And, yes, I have felt in the past that if I didn't know exactly what I was talking about, I got eaten alive. I don't blame Haus, though.

Books flails sometimes because there are a great many books to read and there isn't much chance that the thirty or so people who check in there regularly have read a particular book and have something interesting to say about it. The "book club" threads seem to do all right. Maybe start more of those?

What would your ideal Barbelith involve? How would it be different? To start small, what would happen differently in the Barbequotes thread?

The Barbequotes thread probably isn't the best example, since it's supposed to be an index of how wise and witty we are. We can only fix it by being more wise and witty--and notice when others are wise and witty. I'm in there, too, quoted for things I don't think were all that funny while really good stuff dies out. Look at page, say, 10, then at page 20. Isn't there a marked difference in the quality of humor and wisdom represented?

So, I can't make a list of things that would improve something like that that doesn't come across as a papal Bull or something: Thou shalt not take something fun and cool and turn it screamy and boring.

Just be cool, would you? You used to know how.

In general, I'd like to see Barbelith make more of an effort to enjoy itself, to be more inventive, take more chances, and not get so damn snippy all the time.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
13:39 / 20.10.04
I'm more confused than ever now. Surely what derailed the Wandering Notebook thread was the fact that someone made off with the notebook: suggesting that everybody else just chill our man, yeah man, take it easy man, is not actually going to do anything to change that, is it?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:53 / 20.10.04
When I didn't know anyone on barbelith Head Shop was utterly terrifying. Wait, let me rephrase that, when no one on barbelith knew me, Head Shop was terrifying. Trying to construct a post that demonstrates some kind of knowledge when you have a memory full of holes, when you can never remember the specifics of theory is very difficult. I think the forum's got better but it's actually quite scary to write something that you know is vaguely in the right area and you feel is applicable and have someone answer that your words are completely obsolete.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
14:09 / 20.10.04
I finf the Head Shop reasonably intimidating... I mean, I read it an' all, but I rarely post. This is, however, not because of the intimidation factor as such, more that I feel a lot of the time it deserves more time and effort than I have/am prepared to make, in ordere to sustain/remain part of a discussion. I have a few decent thread ideas, but I don't wanna post them uyntil they're polished and shiny, which unfortunately may be never.

Likewise with the Temple.
 
 
---
14:16 / 20.10.04
Can this place ever get back what it's lost? I think the problem that most of you have is that you've lost that tight knit sense of togetherness now that there's 4000+ people here and you kind of feel like your ideal Barbelith can't ever be brought back. Trust me to be negative but that's just a strong vibe that I get. I don't think that can stop this place from being just as good as it was though, I think it's just a wierd phase at the moment where arguments seem to populate this forum more than usual and the American elections kind of swamp the Switchboard and Temple from time to time, so it feels kind of samey or something.

As for myself, I just feel like the insane outcast and like I've been labelled as one of the site nutters. I can perfectly understand why and I'm not bitter, (reap what you sow) but I'd like to think that I'm at an open minded place where people could associate me with something other than just a nutter if I do actually change as a person, which I know I'm doing now, and have done quite a bit since I got here. Kind of ridding myself of some of my negative aspects.

I look back at my first posts here in January and cringe, will I always be seen as that person? I'll just have to wait and see I guess, because it's not something that can really be affirmed or not. I'd like to think that of all the places on the net that could allow someone to move on this is one of them though, or maybe it's just the way we are as people. I know that I look at some names here and associate them with posts from a while back, it's something that I constantly work on myself when I'm here, and it's a strange thing.
 
 
---
14:21 / 20.10.04
Maybe it's just that time of the month.
 
 
Ganesh
15:18 / 20.10.04
I've got absolutely no idea what 'theory' actually means in this particular context. Doesn't stop me posting in the Head Shop, though.
 
 
HCE
15:36 / 20.10.04
if my presence in the Head Shop is keeping people out of it

It's not that it's terrifying, but for me it is your presence, mostly. It's a style issue for me -- the things that are most interesting to me are the things about which I'm unsure, where I'm likely to be most vague and stumbling and exploratory. I don't find things I'm uninformed about scary, I find them exciting. I think there's a lot of skill and knowledge exhibited in HS, but not that much adventurousness.

You have a style where you take an idea and treat it like a math problem. You start from something that's morally unassailable and proceed forward in a very rigorous and methodical way. (As a side note, I believe the messiness and complexity of human behavior, thought, and emotion limit the fruitfulness of that approach). I think you give in too often to the temptation to merely explain what's wrong with somebody else's comment, overlooking that perhaps the comment was a question rather than an argument. I think it's a waste of your quite fine mind to content yourself with pointing out errors, and not go the extra step of asking the next set of questions.

This is the way it looks to me, and I could certainly be wrong. One point that you yourself have often made is that we each have our own sense of what we'd like out of this. It seemed to me that what I wanted was out of sync, so I shut up and went away, because you (not you, Haus, but you, others generally) have much more invested than I do.

It could just be that I was hit with some culture shock when I first got here, and am underestimating the amount of police work that's really required. I'll go look again.
 
 
Gypsy Lantern
15:44 / 20.10.04
I'm finding barbelith a little less interesting now, not because the membership quotient has gone up, but perhaps because it hasn't quite gone up enough. 4000 are registered, but there are hardly 4000 active posters on barbelith. I think any element of stagnation can't really be divorced from the fact that the board has gone through several prolonged periods of being closed to new members, as a result of security issues and all of that malarky. New members, new voices, new perspectives would be great.

I don't post in the headshop for similar reasons to what kitkat says. Not my specialist area. Interesting to read, but I feel that to engage with it more than superficially would require a knowledge base and language that I'm only very loosely familiar with. I also think it requires a lot of work and effort to contribute to constructively, and most of the spare time I might have to devote to posting online gets eaten up by the temple.

Speaking of which. Temple could do with some new voices as well. I'm trying to post less in there myself at the moment, as I have a habit of aggresively countering ideas and concepts that I find worthy of criticism, and whilst I strongly rate the temple as a space where that sort of critical discussion of magic and spirituality can and regularly does take place, I'm also worried that some of it might put newcomers off starting threads or contributing to discussions. Have to find a better balance on that I think.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:17 / 20.10.04
more that I feel a lot of the time it deserves more time and effort than I have/am prepared to make

Interesting to read, but I feel that to engage with it more than superficially would require a knowledge base and language that I'm only very loosely familiar with

I think that sometimes these comments are true, if people are talking about a philosopher that you don't really think you know anything about than contributing would basically be hijacking a thread (unless you were specifically asking a question). But sometimes I wonder what the hell's going on because a lot of the threads in Head Shop really only require a basic knowledge of a general subject and some common sense. If you're not really interested than I get that, I've posted in the comics forum once and the music forum about seven times but anyone who has absolutely nothing to say about Belief vs. Individual Choice because they think they're completely under-informed is a rather odd puppy and any comment that relates to a thread like that is just as valid as someone dissecting silly old Immanuel Kant.
 
 
Char Aina
17:13 / 20.10.04
perhaps in the case of the headshop and the temple a primer or two would be useful?
some discussion was given to the idea of a 'these arguments have already been had' thread/page in the wiki, but i dont remember anything coming of it.
i for one have less time than i would require(it seems) to get up to speed for HS discussion and i wouldnt even know what books to start with.

maybe someone could help all the bottom rungers climb that ladder?
its just a thought, but if you really want a clever 'lith, teach it.
 
 
Sekhmet
17:14 / 20.10.04
Damn straight.

Head Shop scares the crap out of me, as does the Switchboard. Frankly, the Temple does too, even though that's where I spend most of my time. I'm trying to find useful things to contribute, but I spend 98% of my time lurking. And learning. Honestly, I've learned a shitload from you people in a relatively short amount of time.

I think Gypsy Lantern has clued in to something that's a common issue around here. The veterans sometimes approach the ideas of newer or less experienced people with an attitude of confrontation, rather than education. It's all well and good if you're dealing with someone you know is up to the challenge, but a clueless newbie might be better off being gently handed a clue, rather than being nailed to a wall. People who might have fresh or interesting things to say get discouraged from posting after getting barked at once or twice, or seeing it happen to someone else.

On the other hand, it also does a good job of scaring away people who won't ever contribute anything worthwhile...
 
 
Bed Head
17:36 / 20.10.04
In the wiki:

Head Shop page here, could certainly do with some beefing up, especially considering it's a forum that’s developed a distinct moderation policy, as far as I can tell.

And the Temple page is here. I think someone started a thread asking for a magic FAQ not too long ago. And yet the Temple FAQ is already really good, which maybe goes to show that lots of people don’t bother to ever read the wiki, let alone contribute to it.

(*Please* remember to sign in if you do go updatin', by the way. Updates have come to be regarded as spam, unless they're accompanied by a 'lithy username)
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
17:57 / 20.10.04
the things that are most interesting to me are the things about which I'm unsure, where I'm likely to be most vague and stumbling and exploratory

But when people are vague and stumbling and exploratory, I rarely see them get "barked at". Most of the time, people get barked at when they write things that display a lack of understanding that merits a stumbling and exploratory approach, but instead is presented as if it were a revelation...
 
 
8===>Q: alyn
17:58 / 20.10.04
I've got absolutely no idea what 'theory' actually means in this particular context.

That was my idea of a joke. I am a deeply subtle person.
 
  

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