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Drug Testing in Schools

 
  

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Spaniel
10:53 / 22.02.04
Good old Labour

I fucking bastard hate this government.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
12:41 / 22.02.04
This is a disgusting invasion of young people's privacy. It's also completely worthless, since it's become painfully obvious that drug testing in schools doesn't actually reduce the incidence of drug use. So, another empty, intrusive sop to the Daily Mail mentality. Just what we need.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
17:04 / 22.02.04
If the turn out isn't really good and window breaking for this years Mayday I'm going to language classes and I'm leaving this fucking country. DOES ANYONE LISTEN TO ANYONE? THE SOCIAL LEGISLATION THEY'RE PASSING IS DRIVING ME INSANE. I'M VOTING FOR THE FUCKING TORIES. AT LEAST YOU GET WHAT YOU EXPECT.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
19:54 / 22.02.04
This is just stupid. They test schoolkids for drugs without testing the school meals for obesity agents.

Schoolkids generally dont take their drugs at school anyhow. They aren't that stupid.

You can imagine who'll be targeted- the one all the teachers have it in for, probably also mostly black kids. Its unfair and stupid.

Will this be in all schools? Will the eton twats get away without it while the folks at the comprehensive get thrown into a young offenders institution?
 
 
sleazenation
20:07 / 22.02.04
its all going to be voulentary apparently, both in terms of heads opting into the scheme and parents/students opting out of it, thus the government can distance itself from the practical implementation aspects of the policy.
 
 
doc
09:55 / 23.02.04
drug testin' in schools.....cant wait to see the graphs and 3D pie charts this generates in the tabloids...
 
 
Nobody's girl
11:36 / 23.02.04
Anyone watch the Daily Show with John Stewart? It's an American show I've been downloading for my poor ex-pat yank husband. They had this fantastic excerpt from the State of the Union address by Bush, they've put 23 million (Hail Eris!) towards more drug testing in US schools. Bush was like "We have to tell our kids- we love you..." cut to John Stewart holding an imaginary cup saying "Now pee in this plastic cup in front of all your friends".
Is the UK getting scarily like the US or what?
 
 
bjacques
11:44 / 23.02.04
This could be worth a lawsuit. Even if a kid tests positive for drug metabolites, it's not evidence they used drugs at school or were even under the influence of them while at school.
 
 
Nobody's girl
12:02 / 23.02.04
Oh, and any moron who thinks voting for the Tories will accomplish anything, particularly in the vein of Social Policy is on fucking CRACK.

We've got to stop ourselves being manipulated into an either/or situation by these assholes. And I DON'T mean voting for the Lib Dems.
 
 
specofdust
23:19 / 23.02.04
Steady on Diziet, I can't vote yet but if I could i'd vote for the tories, even though I have left wing views, just to get Tony out of power.

The situation isn't terrible, I'm in school, I regularly have traces of drugs in me, but if they think they're gonna test me they've got another thing coming. I don't care if it's compulsary of volintary, I will not do it. So diziet, that's how im not letting these assholes screw me over, happy?
 
 
Nobody's girl
10:31 / 24.02.04
Very
 
 
Nobody's girl
10:38 / 24.02.04
Though you ARE falling for the either/or situation "I'd vote for the Tories just to get Tony out of power".

I learnt this in Philosophy, it's a logical fallacy e.g. Either Tony Blair is Prime Minister OR Michael Howard is Prime Minister. I believe Tony and Mr Howard want us to see it this way, it's in their best interests after all.
 
 
Bear
10:40 / 24.02.04
To be honest I don't think taking drugs at school did me much good, but it's still not on of course...
 
 
Nobody's girl
11:07 / 24.02.04
Never took drugs in school, well, not so I would've been caught by a drugs test. Occasionally I'd go to parties and people'd be smoking so I'd smoke, get paranoid and sit in a corner nodding for three hours
I was into 2nd circuit exercise highs, not so you'd know by looking at me these days.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
11:39 / 24.02.04
I think the more worrying thing about this is that it's symptomatic of that great New Labour thing... pandering to public opinion. (Which, of course, it conveniently forgot when public opinion was against bombing Iraq, but then...) Like a couple of weeks ago, when they actually had the audacity to tell us that to grant Maxine Carr an early release was going to be "unpopular" and that's why they weren't going to do it... the sheer blatancy of that statement... well, it sucked. I don't have the words.

Quiet word of advice to anyone living in a "democracy"- don't ever, EVER, vote for a lawyer. No offence to lawyers, but you guys are trained in how to defend the indefensible. And that's what I want from my legal support... not the guy who's running my country.

Oh, by the way, I'm against the proposed legislation. In case you couldn't guess

(Apart from anything else, what's it s'posed to prove? I did NO DRUGS AT ALL during my school years, never even drank a beer, but I grew up to embrace 'em both wholeheartedly. While people I know who DID both kind of grew out of 'em while the option was still open.)
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:59 / 24.02.04
Oh, and any moron who thinks voting for the Tories will accomplish anything, particularly in the vein of Social Policy is on fucking CRACK

Erm... that's kind of the point. Voting for the Tories won't do anything.
 
 
Bed Head
12:52 / 24.02.04
This is typical of the current government, in that it’s big talk that’s never going to happen. This isn’t any kind of a policy, or a properly designed plan of action, or actual legislation. It’s just a headline for the Sundays to prove to right-wing, middle-class, Sunday Mail-reading hatemongers that Tony is on their side. That’s all. Releasing ‘guidance’ that gives a headmaster the power to request a pupil undergo a drug test is *not* the same thing as providing the oodles of extra money needed to pay for these drug tests, or backing up a judgement of permanent exclusion, or indeed coughing up for all the extra funding that will be necessary if any problem kids are found to have actual problems.

Oh, and besides: testing for what exactly? This is vaguely reminiscent of all the non-specific “Kids! Don’t! Do! Drugs!” messages we used to get. Will there be testing regimes for - what? Pot? Speed? Ecstacy? Glue? Acid, for fucks sake? because LSD was all the rage with the naughty kids in my school.

So, I reckon: It’ll cost too much. The actual, long-term consequences of opening this can of worms will cost even more. The legislation will be fiddly to get right and open to challenge. It’s never going to happen. Strangely, I’m not particularly inclined to fight for the rights of children to take drugs in school, anyway. But I suspect that that’s exactly the fight this story is designed to provoke, so ‘defenders of civil liberties’ look like a bunch of wrong-headed degenerates and Tony can lay into us with impunity next time round.
 
 
Nobody's girl
14:11 / 24.02.04
I dunno, I see your point Bed Head, but I see it more as yet another attack on personal liberties by this government. Identity cards, the new terrorism act of 2000, detention without trial proposals for "terrorists" or suspects of terrorism, the upcoming bill for indefinite detention of certain groups of people with mental illness with disturbingly vague definitions... it's all open to abuse by unprincipled people or governments. Do you trust the state enough to let them have this much power over you?
 
 
Bed Head
15:30 / 24.02.04
Well, no. But what I’m saying is, it’s a mistake to conflate this issue together with those other issues. Drug-testing in schools is clearly nonsense, it’s just the kind of fiddly, problematic, open-ended drain on resources this government hates. ID cards is important, it’s a basic, fundamental-type issue, with long-term contracts to be awarded, long-term fortunes to be made, and long-term power to be established. They’re *not* the same thing, this has only been thrown up as distraction, to muddy the waters, and it’d be a shame to let them win the argument on ID cards, because we all spent time arguing about this rubbish.

(If you really, really want to defeat ID cards, come up with the kind of argument that would convince Peter Hitchens or Melanie Phillips that they’re a bad thing. It’s the only way.)

Oh, for the record, I don’t think children should be taking drugs in school. That’s what leisure time is for. In my (entirely anecdotal) experience from my time at the Worst School In Britain, those kids that do have a whole bunch of *really* serious problems that aren’t being addressed on any level. And personally, I’m all for taxpayers’ money going into identifying those that need help and giving them any assistance they need to help them get something, anything, out of their time in education: it’s just the kind of thing I’m really happy to pay taxes for. And it’s the kind of thing this government is never, ever going to do. Let Tony witter on about tackling Drugs! In School! all he wants. Just don’t let him use the ‘civil liberties lobby’ as an excuse for not dealing properly with a complex problem, because that lets him off the hook and undermines all the important arguments.

Gah. I see fiendish conspiracy everywhere. I just instantly thought this whole story is rather sus, is all. On the surface, it makes no sense.
 
 
specofdust
18:16 / 24.02.04
Just in case it wasn't clear, I've never taken drugs at school, and I don't think I ever would, but since cannabis stays in your system for months, if I was tested they would find it in my system.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
18:26 / 24.02.04
If you really, really want to defeat ID cards, come up with the kind of argument that would convince Peter Hitchens or Melanie Phillips that they’re a bad thing

There isn't one, they have no concept of social inequality.
 
 
Smoothly
18:55 / 24.02.04
Can someone tell me exactly which civil liberty(/ies) they fear this infringes?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
21:24 / 24.02.04
The liberty to go to school and not have a drugs test when you're totally clean because your parents are paranoid bastards. The right for teenagers to have a private life with light experimentation as no doubt their parents did. (The right not to be bored when you live in the middle of nowhere and want to escape.)
 
 
Smoothly
23:33 / 24.02.04
So kids have a right to take drugs, and they have a right not to be bored if they live in the middle of nowhere?

What kind of rights are these, and where did they get them from? Just so I'm straight.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
00:04 / 25.02.04
No kids don't have a right to take drugs any more than adults do. They have a right to the benefit of the doubt that we should give them. They have a right to the trust that we should give them and they have a right to the privilege and lack of restriction that their parents experienced and damn it a right to make their own mistakes. I have a friend who took heaps of speed in school, he won't touch anything illegal anymore but I'd hate to think that his stupidity earlier would effect anything now. This is stupid, stupid, stupid. I'm not going to go on about school records, university entrance and employment but this is restrictive and absolutely foul.

Were I to have kids there is no way in hell that I would allow a school to perform drugs tests on my children, compulsory or voluntary. Adults shouldn't have those tests in the majority of workplaces. I'd rather they had home schooling ffs.

I'm sorry but this is bullshit, I don't know if it infringes on civil liberties but I think that adolescents (not children but adolescents) should be allowed a certain amount of control over their lives. If you can't spot a kid who's been smoking dope or taking anything harder at school than you're a pretty fucking toss teacher/parent anyway and possibly have no eyes or sense of smell.
 
 
■
08:31 / 25.02.04
Another good argument against drug testing in school is that just as we've seen in prison, everyone will move away from cannabis which (as has been noted) stays in your system for a month. They will move instead toward heroin which doesn't show up unless you're tested very soon afterwards.
I think the headlines should be reading "Government wants to push children towards smack abuse"
 
 
Nobody's girl
12:04 / 25.02.04
You're all getting tangled up in this "right to take drugs" nonsense. Of course, I personally believe that we should have a right to do with our bodies as we wish, but that is neither here nor there. The right at stake here is a touch more fundamental than that, it's about personal privacy and under what circumstances we let the state infringe upon that privacy.

Whether or not someone is taking drugs is a matter that no-one has a right to except that person and their doctor, letting teachers know who in their school is taking drugs will only help to label certain pupils as "problem" kids and possibly lead to suspension, exclusion and family strife- my question is this, how on earth will that help the child? I wasn't a "problem" teenager, I got the fucking School Dux and I could've tested positive if they'd caught me on the right week.

*Pulls out crystal ball* In the future where this legislation exists I see.... a schoolyard black market in clean pee emerging... teenagers hanging around primary school gates paying 10 year olds for their pee.... greater black market involvement by our nations youth.... I see teenagers thinking "well, if I'm going to get in the same shit for smoking pot as for taking harder drugs- why not?"....

Just because it's children, more specifically teenagers, that are being targeted here doesn't make the issue any less important. If this were legislation for random drugs testing at work would we be so laissez faire about it? This could well be "Gateway" legislation for just such an eventuality

I was taught in my Politics class that the more we allow the state to interfere in personal matters the less free we are. Being the libertarian that I am, I strongly agree with this theory. As Lao Tzu said- "The more restrictions and prohibitions in the world, the poorer people get".

...Dude, I never thought I'd be arguing this with Invisibles fans....

Here's a link to what the ACLU has to say about drugs testing in US schools- http://archive.aclu.org/features/f083000a.html

And here's a link to the NORML website section on drugs testing and how to deal with a short notice test, for all you ne'er-do-wells out there -http://www.norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=4476
 
 
Bed Head
14:14 / 25.02.04
Well, hang on, some employers do conduct drug tests. The last proper job I had, there was such a policy: being under the influence was grounds for dismissal, refusing to undergo a drug test could be grounds for dismissal, that was in the contract I freely signed. And I never got tested, because my boss knew damn well I’d rather walk out the door than provide a sample. On principle. He also knew that I’d never, ever turn up for work even slightly tipsy. Again, on principle. Schools are allowed to have rules. This is a proposal to change the guidance for headmasters, so that they can request a drug test. Nobody’s proposing the power to insist on it.

Police don’t have the power to insist you take a breath or urine test if you’re stopped driving. You’ll be fined for refusing to provide a sample, but you’ve still got the right to refuse. And no-one’s suggesting headmasters are going to start fining pupils, either for possession of drugs or for refusal to be tested: this isn’t a revenue-generating exercise masquerading as social policy, like with the coppers and their bloody breathalysers. So, you still haven’t explained why you think this is likely to happen, Dizietsma. Where’s the political interest, where are the votes in spending a lot of money to uncover concrete evidence of a problem that’s going to cost a whole load more money to address? Just think about it for a second, maybe it’s a refusal to spend middle-class voters’ money on nasty poor kids that leads to there being a growing ‘drug problem’ in the nation’s schools. There are votes to be won in talking tough and picking fights with lefties, but no votes for Blair in actually spending money on this.

The right at stake here is a touch more fundamental than that, it's about personal privacy and under what circumstances we let the state infringe upon that privacy.

That I agree with. But I just think it’s the wrong fight, it makes Blair look like he’s protecting the nation’s cuddly-wuddly children from the evil left-wing hippies: you’re wasting breath arguing about voluntary fucking drug tests in schools when they’re progressing with plans for a national DNA database. It’s directly comparable to getting distracted by an argument over the rights and wrongs of breathalysing drink-drivers, when all the while coppers are stealthily retaining all the DNA samples that they’ve got the power to take from people who haven’t been convicted of anything. There’s a cuddly, common-sense ‘issue’, and hiding behind it there’s a hard-nosed scary thing going on. And I can’t believe I’m arguing about this with Invisibles fans...


Oh, and Anna, I know it tastes nasty, but I think the right-wing middle class is the only voting constituency that counts for anything in this country. It’s not a good thing, but it just *can’t* be fought head on. It’s their interests that have co-opted the Labour party, it’s this same constituency you simply must address if you want to formulate any kind of strategy that’s going to actually work. This is my theory, FWIW. And there’s as many libertarian instincts on the right-wing as there are on the left; The rich have just as many of their precious liberties to lose as the poor, they’re just different kinds of liberties. Whatever your principles are, you have to figure out a way of spinning them that’s going to be effective. And that's an entirely separate thread, really.

And I’m ever so sorry, I realise I’ve just spent 3 tedious posts long-windedly saying the same thing each time, ie that this isn’t worth arguing about. Gah. I am Barbelith’s Paranoid Gasbag. I’ll shut up now.
 
 
Nobody's girl
15:39 / 25.02.04
"you’re wasting breath arguing about voluntary fucking drug tests in schools when they’re progressing with plans for a national DNA database"

I totally agree with you that the DNA database is an important issue, but I do see this as part of a wholesale attack on personal freedoms, as I've outlined in an earlier post. The significance of each individual part is really a matter of perspective, you're clearly not at school so this issue will seem less important to you.

"It’s directly comparable to getting distracted by an argument over the rights and wrongs of breathalysing drink-drivers, when all the while coppers are stealthily retaining all the DNA samples that they’ve got the power to take from people who haven’t been convicted of anything. There’s a cuddly, common-sense ‘issue’, and hiding behind it there’s a hard-nosed scary thing going on. "

This is where I disagree with you, to quote the pressure group Liberty -
"In an attempt to combat threats to society like terrorism and crime, governments often rush to create new laws. They give themselves new powers - without stopping to sufficiently consider the impact on our civil liberties and human rights. Sometimes they end up sacrificing the very freedoms these laws are intended to protect.Often this process is too gradual to notice - until the moment we're affected ourselves. Then we realise that our lives are not as private or as free as we thought"

This is why I have a problem with this issue, that the government has even considered such a measure as policy exhibits their contempt for us and our rights. Isn't it telling that such an issue would arise around such issues as identity cards and emergency powers legislation? The sneaky bastards have realised that we're happy for them to exploit us and they're not going to let this oppotunity pass.

It is also symptomatic of our collective apathy, disempowerment and attitudes to freedom that we consider capitulating on even this, to your mind, trifling matter. If this were a debate about the DNA database I would be sayng the same things. Just because there are other issues of freedom at stake doesn't nullify the significance of these proposals, it just happens to be the one were are discussing in this thread.

"And I never got tested, because my boss knew damn well I’d rather walk out the door than provide a sample. On principle. He also knew that I’d never, ever turn up for work even slightly tipsy. Again, on principle. Schools are allowed to have rules. This is a proposal to change the guidance for headmasters, so that they can request a drug test. Nobody’s proposing the power to insist on it."

And, yes, some jobs DO ask for drugs tests. It worked out fine for you, perhaps not everyone will be lucky enough to have as understanding a boss as you. If we allow drugs testing a yet further reach into our lives it will become commonplace, more acceptable and THIS is where I belive the "powers that be" are going with this.

Even officially alowing headteachers even to request a drugs test is a step too far. After all, what is the logical implication for any headteacher who has requested a drugs test that the pupil has declined?

Think YOU'RE paranoid eh?
 
 
Smoothly
15:39 / 25.02.04
dizietsma, my feeling was that we weren't getting tangled up in this rights nonsense any thing like enough. But I think that's just me, others seem less concerned, and when my real life calms down a bit I mean to address that topic in a separate thread.

Nevertheless, a few questions on the principles rather than the practicalities here:

Why does nobody but one's doctor have the right (there it is again) to know if one's using drugs? Are you getting this from somewhere in particular, or is it just self-evident to you? Are there no exceptions to this rule?

As Bed Head says, employers already have the power to submit employees for drug tests. As a Libertarian, I'm surprised that you'd be so opposed to this. I'd have thought the laissez faire attitude would be all yours. Are you saying that employers shouldn't be allowed to employ only the demonstrably drug free?

You know it's quite likely that the reason that lots of employers still don't carry out drug-testing is because they know as well as you do that people can take drugs and still contribute effectively. I feel confident, for example, that if the company I last worked for fired everyone found to be using drugs, to one extent or another, they'd lose a huge proportion of their staff - many of them their best and brightest. So, if you believe that drugs are wrongfully demonised generally, maybe you should support anything which will reveal the truth of the situation - including the fact that many exemplary individuals (including students) take drugs.

There's also the matter of a school's responsibility to its pupils. Couldn't you plausibly argue that serious drug misuse or addiction could be the hidden cause of genuine problems - just as dyslexia, ADD, or abuse at home might be? Is it wrong for a school to test for any of these things?
 
 
Bed Head
16:10 / 25.02.04
this bit: I totally agree with you that the DNA database is an important issue, but I do see this as part of a wholesale attack on personal freedoms, as I've outlined in an earlier post. The significance of each individual part is really a matter of perspective, you're clearly not at school so this issue will seem less important to you.

Yeah, it’s part of the wholesale attack on personal liberties, only in so far as it’s newspaper-friendly chaff designed to obscure other attacks that are going on. Okay, you think it’s really important in and of itself. I really don’t have a problem with that, I just read back my posts and I’m ever so sorry, because I’m sounding really snotty and I don’t mean to be. All I’m saying is, this isn’t an argument that you’ll win in the public arena. Ask your average Daily Mail-reading, Blair-and-Blunkett-loving bigot, ‘Do you think children should be allowed to take drugs in school’ - because that’s the scenario Tony’s putting to his core constituency - and they’ll back him all the way to the gulag. Ask the same Daily Mail reading, Blair-loving bigot if they want this or any future Government to hold extensive files on every intimate aspect of their life, and they’ll string him up from the nearest lamppost. That’s why this stupid idea has been thrown up now. Just Tony picking his fights, choosing the territory. It's a mistake to engage in this. I think.


There. I tried to say it simply and it worked out fine.
 
 
Nobody's girl
16:10 / 25.02.04
I swear to all the Gods in Heaven this is my last word on this issue

"Why does nobody but one's doctor have the right (there it is again) to know if one's using drugs? Are you getting this from somewhere in particular, or is it just self-evident to you? Are there no exceptions to this rule"

Basically the whole doctor thing is more about safety than anything. Doctors have got to know whats going on in your body chemistry or they can't help you and could conceivably even harm you. So I think it's a good idea to inform your doctor if you take drugs, patient confidentiality is still mostly respected so I see no harm in this. On the other hand you shouldn't be compelled to tell them anything, you should just be aware that for your personal safety it's best to inform them.

"As a Libertarian, I'm surprised that you'd be so opposed to this. I'd have thought the laissez faire attitude would be all yours. Are you saying that employers shouldn't be allowed to employ only the demonstrably drug free?"

You're thinking of those OTHER libertarians. Laissez Faire attitudes in libertarian thought tends to be more in the economic sphere, which I am still a little unsure of. The idea behind libertarian attitudes is the enlargement of freedoms and freedom from state interference in the personal sphere. The right to govern what happens to your own body and who knows about it is most certainly an issue of personal freedom from state interference, wouldn't you agree?

"There's also the matter of a school's responsibility to its pupils. Couldn't you plausibly argue that serious drug misuse or addiction could be the hidden cause of genuine problems - just as dyslexia, ADD, or abuse at home might be? Is it wrong for a school to test for any of these things?"

Certainly drugs use is symptomatic of genuine problems, but not always. I think tarring people who take drugs "responsibly" or even recreationally with the same brush as people who take drugs to escape pain and problems is a big mistake. My mum has a glass of wine occasionally with a meal but I wouldn't call her an alcoholic. There are many other ways of identifying troubled children, a good teacher will be able to spot these before they start smoking crack. Having worked with kids for quite a few years I find it is quite clear to tell when children are troubled. If teachers don't pick up on the signs earlier then they aren't trying hard enough frankly. You can read children like books when you've worked with them long enough.
 
 
Nobody's girl
16:21 / 25.02.04
*Runs up behind Bed Head and catches him/her in a surprise, over the internet, hug attack*

I didn't mean to imply you were being snotty, please accept my apologies. I love a good debate, but I get caught up in it
 
 
Bed Head
16:38 / 25.02.04
Gosh. Huggles back. I didn’t mean to imply that I thought you were implying anything. Please accept my apologies. And likewise on getting caught up in the cut-and-thrust of interwebnet banter.
 
 
luda
10:01 / 12.03.04
I think drug testing is a pile of donky mix horse poo!
 
  

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