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"She Asked for it..." The correct viewpoint on domestic violence?

 
 
Olulabelle
09:18 / 11.02.04
This website has recently been brought to my attention. The woman whose site it is appears to hold the viewpoint that if a person who is being abused by their partner doesn't immediately leave the first time the abuse occurs, it means they actually 'really like it'.

Her alternative standpoint is that they are weak and pathetic and shouldn't be bothered with.

But there is so much information readily available on domestic violence these days I can't comprehend how anyone could really truly believe that to be the case.

Women's Aid for example, tries to dispell some of the myths about domestic violence. They say:

MYTH
She must enjoy it or she'd leave

REALITY
Women stay with violent men because it is extremely difficult for them to leave. Until recently, there were no refuges and therefore women had nowhere they could go. Even now the numbers of women being turned away due to the lack of refuge space equals or exceeds the places provided.

Many women still do not know refuges exist. Women worry about how the disruption of leaving will affect their children, how they will provide for their children alone, how they will manage as parents on their own. Even if no move is involved, the change of status can equally worry a woman. Marriage is still seen as an achievement, separation as a failure.

Apart from having nowhere to go, many women are so terrified by their partner that they fear the consequences if they attempt to leave. Indeed, research has shown that leaving a violent man is the most dangerous time for a woman.

The prospect of poor housing, lack of day care facilities, poor employment opportunities and poverty are all other reasons why women stay.


I have to say, I feel very angry about the 'women who deserve it' comments (which is not the ideal reason for starting a thread in the Headshop, I know) but it also made me wonder, is this a widely help opinion? Is it just ignorance?

Do you think there is any truth in what she says?
 
 
Ex
10:40 / 11.02.04
Interesting questions. Especially when there's a new (I think) ad campaign raising awareness of domestic violence around London; it seems to be specifically encouraging people outside the relationship who know about the violence to take action.

Firstly, I think the featured website really enjoys pissing people off, so it doesn't need to be well argued, which is good, because it's appallingly written.
For example, the narrator uses her life story as an example of how any woman can leave an abusive relationship. In the account she gives there is absolutely no practical detail about how she left her abusive husband, how she found somewhere else to live, what income or family support she had, what she would have done if he'd known where she was and tried to continue the abuse. She concludes:

The moral of the story is: Any woman can easily leave an undesirable relationship if she has the want and self respect.

Being able to extrapolate that moral from the fact that she poured chilli sauce on her partner's cock is ridiculous.

But the point is definitely worth considering more than the person (who I really hope maintains a Trappist silence whilst volunteering at the Battered Women's Shelter, because who needs that shit?).

I think the practical reasons listed by Women's Aid are very much worth restating in such instances. If you're defending your need for state aid, particularly, then the relative lack of financial control and the practical fear of discovery by battered partners are excellent reasons.
Outside the case for state intervention, I'm interested in the less practical reasons why someone doesn't leave a violent relationship; the kind of mental manouvering that accompanies being subjected to violence. I feel there are a lot of patterns of logic which people begin in order to survive violence and try to understand it, and which then keep people with abusive partners (even when they seem to have practical opportunities to leave). Just from anecdotal sources: People deny to themselves and others that the violence is serious or continuous. They construct time-based excuses (this is a period of stress, my partner will be better when it's less stressful). They don't sincerely believe in the possibility of a relationship without violence (or don't believe they deserve one). They overvalue loyalty, and think leaving makes them a worthless person who "bailed" on their partner when they needed them. They feel that the violence is a shared problem which they have to work through together, and to which they contribute by provoking their partners.
Overall, I feel that there is a great desire for relationships to succeed, coming from our cultural obsession with life-long coupledom. Even when terrible things have happened in a relationship, you hope that something will be able to redeem it. The worse it gets, and the longer it goes on for, the more you need it to improve and the more you will lose if you leave - because by leaving you admit that the time and pain were for nothing.
And friends and relatives are often perfectly happy to participate in this downplaying and manouvering, which means that your distorted perspective becomes more easily maintained.

Anyway, this is all drawn from the experience of friends and acquaintances rather than more authoritative sources. I'd be really interested to see any decent research on this topic.

So - yes, I think that for the purposes of big, simple, awareness raising the issues of finance and fear need to be emphasised. More anecdotage - I know that at least one domestic violence charity finds it very hard to get major corporate charitable sponsorship because it's perceived as "breaking up homes". So, awareness certainly needs to be bloody raised.
But I'm equally interested in not oversimplifying the reasons why someone doesn't leave an abusive relationship, because then you risk saying "She's financially secure, why doesn't she just pour chilli sauce on him and leave?".
 
 
illmatic
14:10 / 11.02.04
Had a brief buzz around her website and thought that the source of her issue/anger with the whole thing is she's not allowed to advocate the break of families ie. if a women's making a choice to go back to an abusive partner, she's not allowed to challenge it.

Or in her words:

. "Why doesn't she try to persuade the women to leave?"

A. We're not allowed. Unfortunately, it's our job to provide these women with adequate support...no matter how undeserving the ignorant, pathetic hag may be. When a women approaches me and says, once again, "I want to go back," it's my job to look them in the eye and congratulate them on making a choice even if it's obviously a poor one. Then, I am forced to mercilessly pry her hysterical child's grasp from my legs while he pleads with me, "Don't make me go back! I'm scared of Daddy!" At this point, the mother usually says something ironically cruel, like, "Get in the car you little brat! Can't you see you are making this hard for Mommy?"


I find this hard to believe personally. Or rather, I think she might be framing a complex issue in a very narrow way to fit her predjudices. Anyone care to enlighten me as to what the normal policy is in this situation? What is normally advised in either the US or UK when a person chooses to return to an abusive relationship? Whatever, I still feel that blaming someone for bad choices or lack of personal strength might give vent to your spleen but it isn't going to improve their situation, or that of their dependents. I find her whole self-aggrandising tone repellent - just because she was able to act in a certain way at a certain time does mean that everyone has the capacity to do the same. And deeserves judging on that basis.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:28 / 12.02.04
Women stay with violent men because it is extremely difficult for them to leave. Until recently, there were no refuges and therefore women had nowhere they could go. Even now the numbers of women being turned away due to the lack of refuge space equals or exceeds the places provided. - olulabelle

I'm far from being an expert on this, but isn't the reality rather more murky than the dichotomy between "she was asking for it" and "it was impossible for her to leave"?

Someone who knows more about the psychology involved can no doubt set me straight, but I thought that there was an element of dependence and a lack of rational decision making in abusive relationships that makes women (although it can also be men) stay with partners despite the mistreatment. Declaring love, loyalty and forgiveness in the face of abuse.

Which is not to say that anyone "deserves it", of course, but that these things are rather more complex than the odd soundbite.
 
 
Papess
13:36 / 16.02.04
I don't think one can just paint every situation with the same brush. I agree with Lurid Archive, in the fact that these things are complicated, every situation is different and has it's own variables. What I do notice though, is that this is precisly what the Women's Aid site is trying to do - to completely exonerate women in every instance of domestic violence. I don't believe that is acceptable either.

The first site is obviously made as a cruel joke, to antagonize it's readers, but that doesn't mean there is no truth to it. It is quite possible that someone could provoke abuse for their own purposes.

I think projecting the helpless female image by claiming abuse gets a woman some leverage in a relationship to use it to manipulate a situation...to try and control by threatening with calls to the police or divorce...It may not be that she likes it, but it is possible that it is provoked for this reason. I have seen this first hand where the woman pushes her spouse/lovers buttons and is even violent herself, but as soon as he goes to restrain her, or fight back, the woman crys "abuse". THIS scenario is what hurts the credibility of women whom are actually being victimized in abusive situations. Althought the first scenario is abusive, it is mutual. THAT is not, IMO any reason to coddle the "poor woman" if she is in a mutually abusive relationship.

I find the women's organizations that refuse to be objective enough to recognize the responsibility the woman may have in some situations is just perpetuating the dispicable image of woman as victim, which of course is now euphamized (hmm...is that a word?) with "survivor". Still, the vindication of the woman in every circumstance of domestic violence and not questioning the involvement of the woman, is just as much a step back for women as is the violence inflicated. I don't think women should use this carte blache attitude western society has been adopting to protect women and using it to their advantage, to manipulate. This is just crying wolf and leads to the incredibility of women and ignorance flourishes, therefore.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:18 / 16.02.04
I think projecting the helpless female image by claiming abuse gets a woman some leverage in a relationship to use it to manipulate a situation...to try and control by threatening with calls to the police or divorce...It may not be that she likes it, but it is possible that it is provoked for this reason. I have seen this first hand where the woman pushes her spouse/lovers buttons and is even violent herself, but as soon as he goes to restrain her, or fight back, the woman crys "abuse". THIS scenario is what hurts the credibility of women whom are actually being victimized in abusive situations. Althought the first scenario is abusive, it is mutual. THAT is not, IMO any reason to coddle the "poor woman" if she is in a mutually abusive relationship.

Hmm...what you're first describing isn't a mutually abusive relationship, though. It's a disparately abusive relatonship, where the partners behave abusively in very different ways. I would suggest that "upsetting somebody" and "physical violence against somebody" are so distinct as behaviour patterns that a desire to tie them together suggests a slightly unhealthy approach to the topic of domestic violence. I'm also not convinced that many people actually invite violence in order to blackmail the aggressor with police interventions (given the conviction rate for spousal abuse, one might do better simply to frame them for armed robbery) or divorce (since divorces can now be enacted without spousal abuse).

Notwithstanding. No doubt there are situations in which both partners are aggressive and/or abusive. Is this mutual exploitation or a form of codependence?

And, now that we have raised violent women, although in the context of the man restraining or fighting back, there is also the question of the "battered husband". For so long a staple of bawdy comedy, the appearance of David Gest has rather made the laughing stop. Or start uncontrollably, depending on how you look at it. But is Gest grotesque just because Gest *is* grotesque, or because he is inverting the expectations of gender - he is the victim, and as the apparent recipient of violence is being feminised and thus appearing a horrible portmanteau drag-act?

This seems to segue into a common dichotomy - that, regardless of truths or responsibilities, both victims and perpetrators of domestic abuse (at least those who crop up) are not really PLOs - is there a class revulsion at the heart of some of the horrified reactions? By condemning the complicity of the battered wife (victim or cynical exploiter), are we making it clear that she is nothing like *us*?
 
 
Papess
14:11 / 17.02.04
Hmm...what you're first describing isn't a mutually abusive relationship, though. It's a disparately abusive relatonship, where the partners behave abusively in very different ways. I would suggest that "upsetting somebody" and "physical violence against somebody" are so distinct as behaviour patterns that a desire to tie them together suggests a slightly unhealthy approach to the topic of domestic violence.

Did I not make that distinction? I certainly agree, they are different. I am not implying this is the case in every situation, just in a mutual disparately abusive relationship where both parties are responsible for violent behaviour, including the alledged victim.

I'm also not convinced that many people actually invite violence in order to blackmail the aggressor with police interventions (given the conviction rate for spousal abuse, one might do better simply to frame them for armed robbery) or divorce (since divorces can now be enacted without spousal abuse).

Indeed, bad examples. More likely, what is sought after is the support and validation of friends and family, quite possibly even therapists and counsellors.
 
 
Olulabelle
19:52 / 17.02.04
Um? Surely if an alleged victicm of abuse is seeing a therapist or counsellor it means she at least (and in this country the NHS also) thinks she is in an abusive relationship? Here, you don't really get to see a trained therapist unless you've been in hospital for depression, or have tried to commit suicide, or have had some other sort of severe mental problem. There are counsellors which I suppose anyone has access to and I guess a person could lie to one if all they wanted was 'validation'. But I don't think anyone really wants to be seeing a therapist or a counsellor (unless I suppose, they are really narcissistic) and given the state of the NHS here, and the difficulty of getting counselling on it I would imagine such tendencies would be spotted before the person was offered therapy in the first place.

You see, I really can't see what anyone would stand to gain from 'inviting violence', and quite frankly, even the women who are in mutually abusive relationships like you describe (where the female maybe throws things, or shouts or whatever and receives violence in return) still deserve to have the violence recognized as a problem, and receive support and help. I think sometimes relationships which may appear to be mutually abusive from the outside are actually not, and the abuse you describe may just be the woman's response to the threat of violence, since she has learned to read the signs and signals which portend it.

Hmmm. I think we need to define what we mean by violence. What I mean by violence is not throwing crockery, or shouting, or even self-defence if being attacked. What I mean by violence is being physically attacked by a partner.
 
 
Char Aina
22:03 / 17.02.04
I really can't see what anyone would stand to gain from 'inviting violence'

really?
go watch fight club.

i can easily imagine a believable situation in which being on the recieving end of a punch or two might be worth it.
some people fear violence less than others, and place a lower importance on protcting themselves from all physical harm. i am not suggesting that to be afraid of or unwilling to be subjected to pain is a weakness of any kind. it is important to bear in mind, however, that some people(like my wee brother playing rugby, or me skating) willingly risk physical harm for gain. sometimes it isnt even a risk, its a certainty.

if i said you could have three hundred pounds if you let me punch you in the jaw, would you say no? and if i offered you three hundred thousand?

you get the idea.
 
 
Char Aina
22:13 / 17.02.04
I would suggest that "upsetting somebody" and "physical violence against somebody" are so distinct as behaviour patterns that a desire to tie them together suggests a slightly unhealthy approach to the topic of domestic violence.

i understand the distinction you are making.
i also wonder just how much you could upset someone without it being equivalent to a punch in the face. would maliciously making someone relive the painful memories of losing a parent/spouse/child be less painful than a smack in the mouth, for example?

and no, i m not building a case to defend abuse. i do think that to only discuss physical violence will hamper our understanding of domestic abuse.
 
 
ibis the being
12:55 / 19.02.04
I think Ex made some excellent points. Having been with someone who was rather verbally abusive, I know how easy it is to downplay and think, "well, this is only a rough spot, it will get better." I can imagine how that way of thinking could persist even through battery. After all, it's not as though the abusive lover decks a woman on their second date - he starts out charming & wooing her, and abuse becomes involved gradually.

Also, in response to this query of Haus's -
No doubt there are situations in which both partners are aggressive and/or abusive. Is this mutual exploitation or a form of codependence?

I'd say it certainly is a form of codependence. In cases where the woman provokes the violent lover to the point of physical abuse - which does happen - it's not likely that she really wants to be bashed in, or "likes it." But there's good chance that's an old behavior pattern, a habit from early childhood, when the only way to get attention was to push a parent's buttons until she was yelled at or hit. Unfortunately, for some people, negative attention is "as good" as positive attention, or at least the next best thing. That's not to say she likes being abused, though. Based on the disfunctional parental relationship from her past, she subconsciously equates abuse with love. Probably she's miserable, but doesn't know how to break out of the pattern, if she doesn't understand why it's happening.
 
 
pornotaxi
15:43 / 20.03.04
I think when contemplating this topic, the first thing that needs to be understood is that domestic violence is not primarily a gender issue.

There are many women's aid groups who have categorically regarded domestic violence as a gender issue, and their state funding benefits immensely from continuing to maintain this gender based agenda.

For example, from:
http://www.scottishwomensaid.co.uk/whatis/index.html

"What is domestic violence?"
Domestic abuse is the physical, mental and/or sexual abuse of a woman by someone with whom she is or has been in a relationship.

I personally find this stance cynical, manipulative and abhorrent.

Contrast this with the viewpoints of Erin Pizzey, founder of the first Women's refuge, who was startled to find that most of the women coming through her door, claiming to be victims of abuse, were themselves physically and emotionally abusive. When Erin dared to point this out, she was uncerimoniously kicked out of the movement that she herself had begun. The book that she subsequently wrote, "Prone to Violence", was forcibly withdrawn from sale in many bookshops, and removed from many libraries, as certain Women's groups threatened to burn down any establishment where the book was made available.

I certainly recommend study of this book. A copy is freely available online at:

http://www.bennett.com/ptv/index.shtml

see also:

http://www.backlash.com/content/gender/1997/7-dec97/pizzey07.html

t
 
 
pornotaxi
16:01 / 20.03.04
Further info on the important distinction to be made between 'battered women' and 'violence prone women':

http://www.ejfi.org/DV/dv-26.htm

t
 
 
Tom Coates
23:39 / 20.03.04
I'd just like to respond to this comment by Haus: "I'm also not convinced that many people actually invite violence in order to blackmail the aggressor with police interventions (given the conviction rate for spousal abuse, one might do better simply to frame them for armed robbery) or divorce (since divorces can now be enacted without spousal abuse)."

Directly inviting violence, perhaps no - but I know that a rather unstable member of my immediate family (who has got into physical fights with her partner in the past) has used the domestic abuse card to blackmail said partner several times and he very definitely doesn't deserve it. She's used pre-existing accidental injuries and bruises afflicted while she attempted to attack him (according to her rather tired and exasperated children who know precisely how insane she is) to try and get leverage on him - telling him he'd never get custody of the children, or simply to punish him. He's had his gun license revoked and those people who don't know the situation have treated him on occasion like a pariah - while those of us who have regular contact with her know precisely what an incredible fantasist she is and how exploitative she is.

While I think it's profoundly important that we take all allegations of domestic abuse utterly seriously and give them all the attention and diligent investigation that they deserve, I think it's also important that we accept that in any situations where there are rules or protective arrangements there will be a small minority of people who will shamelessly attempt to exploit them to further whatever goals they have.
 
 
Nobody's girl
04:49 / 21.03.04
Hmm...

From the aforemetioned website-

"In fact, the following Christmas when the parental units were having yet another knockdown, drag-out, Podunk, trailer trash, hillbilly, shit-stomping war, my brother and I sat on the steps with a bowl of popcorn and watched with maniacal glee. When Tony grabbed mommy dearest by the hair and flung her into the 6ft tall Christmas tree, my brother shrieked, “Do it again Tony! She LIKES it!” while I applauded. Tony gave us the thumbs up and put the bitch in a figure four. Us kids pumped our fists around in circles and barked just like the dog pound on the ‘Arsenio Hall Show’. Dumb bitch shoulda put the tape away…"

Issues much?

Like the above author I also grew up in a household where my stepfather abused my mother. My stepfather is now dead, my mother is obviously better off without him and I'm sure she knows it.

These are the reasons I've gathered for why my mother stayed with my abusive stepfather, from my own observations and her own words-

a) He was comparitvely rich when she met him and we were really poor- tawdry but a consideration.
b) Since the age of 18 she has always been in a relationship was afraid of being alone.
c) Despite her professed feminist ideologies she appears to need a man to tell her what to do. Since his death, every time a difficult situation presents itself she will consult my elder brother and my stepfather's best friend for advice first.
d) Low self-esteem after an extremely acrimonious divorce from my father. My stepfather played on that throughout their relationship.
e) Unwillingness by society to accept that domestic violence happens in any class other than the working class. In primary six I told my teacher what was happening at home, my very middle class headteacher covered it up to avoid scandal.
f) Unwillingness of my mother's peers to intervene. A friend of mine whose father worked with my stepfather told me that her family knew what was happening and didn't know how to intervene. I had a hard time forgiving them for that.
g) She had a child with him. Stupid? Yes. Common? Yes. Sadly, even in a non-abusive relationship you'll find people "Stick it out for the children".
h) She was too ashamed to talk about it with anyone.
i) Misplaced sympathy for my stepfather's sorry ass. After his death it was revealed that he had lied about many important aspects of his life to get sympathy, like having a dead brother when he was an only child.
j) Catholic guilt.
k) Delusion. My mother once tried to convince me that it was normal for domestic abuse to happen. Despite being a psychologist and presumably having studied the pathology of delusional behaviour.
l) Attention seeking behaviour. My mother felt emotionally neglected by her parents who were very wrapped up in each other with little time for the kids. As a result my mother would (and still does) provoke arguments for attention, luckily my father was not prone to physical violence- my stepfather was.
m) Masochistic tendencies. Duh.
n) When he wasn't being abusive he could be interesting, charismatic and even caring. Outside the home people really liked my stepfather- over 200 people attended his funeral, all very upset at his passing.

Did she "love it really"? Well, as her life seems happier and more fulfilling without him I'd vote no.
 
  
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