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Arabic Scholars Needed; Sufi specialists preferred

 
  

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Char Aina
18:09 / 03.02.04
i am looking into different types of alphabet with an eye to a tattoo. i am planning to scroll a few words round my arm in arabic, and i aould specifically like to know how to write things in sufi.

help with perfectly translating my idea would be handy too, but i would prefer to get a look at the characters before i go that far.

any hints?
 
 
Lilith Myth
19:13 / 03.02.04
you can get all the alphabets you want here
 
 
grant
19:51 / 03.02.04
Hint: "Sufi" isn't an ethnicity. It's basically a sect within Islam.

This article should tell you more.

You may also find this definition of alif useful: alif (A) The first letter of the Arabic alphabet. To the transformed man of wisdom, the alif represents Allah, the One. See also: lam, mim.
 
 
Char Aina
18:32 / 04.02.04
i knew that about sufi, but cheers for the linkage.

sufi arabic is a different calligraphic 'dialect'(its the same language, but drawn differently), hence the possibly confusing wording earlier.
 
 
Char Aina
18:35 / 04.02.04
oh, and that is also why that first link aint so good...

as they put it, Each Arabic speaking country or region also has its own variety of colloquial spoken Arabic. they only have the two main kinds on their site, unfortunately.

the sufi were the mystics of islam, and as such i find their's to be more 'powerful'. (also, the phrase i wanted is actually more relevant to them)
 
 
Char Aina
18:41 / 04.02.04
i guess what i am looking for is the closest possible representation of the words of the original sufi wise men, whether that be in their own script (which i so far only suspect they had) or the script of their closest peer.

i have emailed the islamic studies centres of a couple of UK universities and i was going to try some overseas...
i am a bit googled-out by the MASSIVE amount of arabic language sites, however. any other recomendations?
 
 
grant
21:15 / 04.02.04
Well, you can try picking out a specific Sufi teacher, determining his (or her) language/dialect and then working from there.
 
 
kamals
01:22 / 26.09.07
An old... thread.. but to follow up, if anyone is curious about Sufism, the Sufis, or Arabic numerology and alphabets, feel free to message me.
 
 
*
01:27 / 26.09.07
This is a message board where many people are curious about all kinds of topics. For instance, if you were to start a thread in Temple about Sufism and calligraphy, Arabic triliteral roots and Islamic philosophy, or nearly any subtopic, I bet there would be people interested. I know I would be.
 
 
Olulabelle
09:09 / 26.09.07
Yes, me too.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
10:21 / 26.09.07
How odd, I was just about to start a thread on this subject since I'm about to get a tatoo looking like this:



I'd rather not be ignorant of what something etched into my skin for all eternity means, so could anybody translate it or point me towards somebody who can?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
10:30 / 26.09.07
It's Sanskrit for "Cultural Tourist Board, Chennai Office".
 
 
Closed for Business Time
10:38 / 26.09.07
Actually it's just a reworking of Aku from Samurai Jack!
 
 
Char Aina
11:19 / 26.09.07
Cultural Tourist

Has there ever been a thread that details exactly what is up with cultural tourism? There were a couple on apropriation and around similar topics, but I'd be interested to read more about why kanji/sanskrit/latin tatoos are largely only for the feckless.

Heck, even a non barbelith source you rate would be nice.
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
14:16 / 26.09.07
Or just a big list of art I'm allowed to find aesthetically pleasing and get stabbed into my skin versus that which is completely unacceptable.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:27 / 26.09.07
Well, if your only criterion is aesthetic, surely it doesn't matter what it means? I had a swirl of rounded lines and perpendicular curves inscribed in ultraviolet-sensitive white ink into the skin of my back. It was only later that I found that others interpreted this symbol as a crude drawing of a big manpart, and some underslung balls.
 
 
Char Aina
14:35 / 26.09.07
Do you have any recomendations for further reading that might inform my opinion of cultural tourism?
 
 
*
15:05 / 26.09.07
This is an interesting and thoughtful post.
 
 
Regrettable Juvenilia
15:13 / 26.09.07
Yeah, was gonna recommended Orientalism myself. I have to say, deciding to get the tattoo before you actually know what it means seems like putting the cart before the horse. But to each hir own, I suppose...
 
 
Char Aina
15:41 / 26.09.07
M. Zippid, do you think these are indictaive bits of that post?

IMO, you can't really understand a culture unless you're a part of it
and
Practices, ideas, values and symbols that are an active part of people's lives can't be abstracted out without losing some of their vital aspects. It comes off as kinda arrogant when people who don't share that assume they can know just as much, or more, about someone's life from outside that life.
and
I don't think there's a universal meaning to something outside its particular situation, and I don't think you can understand that meaning without being a part of that situation.
and
I don't think any amount of research is enough to substitute for actually growing up as a part of a culture.


I'm trying to get a handle on the objections people have to folks, say, getting tatooed with a language they were not born into, because I want to apply those objections to my own motives and see what falls off in the process.
(I decided against the tatoo, incidentally, for reasons I'd rather not go into online. I'm still interested in interrogating my original motives, though)

I think I will grab a copy of Orientalism at some point. It's intrigued me before, and it's been recomended so often getting ridiculous that I haven't.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
15:54 / 26.09.07
It may sound a bit left-field, but actually Edward Said's Orientalism might be a good read. The historical use of "oriental" signifiers to communicate exoticism by a western audience whose relationship to the culture from which it originated was often at best superficial and at worst exploitative has a long history. At the other end of the scale, of course, is the argument that the aggregation of cultures and their symbols is either a quality of postmodernism (in which the symbols are stripped of intrinsic meaning and become mere arrangements of line and colour) or cultural integration (where traditionally subaltern cultures are embraced and valued by dominant discourse).

However... hmm. Well, case in point. I am often contacted by people who want a Latin motto - for a crest, or a logo, or whatever. They have come up with a phrase that they think encapsulates their meaning - "I am a totally awesome ninja" or similar - but they feel it would have more gravitas in Latin. I am not a member of a Latin-speaking minority, except in a very broad sense, but I find that I often have to explain things like that Latin represents a differnect culture, with different concepts, and that a cool phrase in English is not necessarily an input that will lead to a cool and more obscure and impressive-looking phrase in Latin as an output. That is further complicated by Imperial histories and current inequalities, I think, which make me, personally, chary about thinking of a phrase or saying in my language, and then thinking about the translation of it into a language I do not speak which belongs to a culture with which I am unfamiliar as a means of adding exoticism or enigma.

(On preview. Ah. This appears to have been covered. Repeatedly. Ah, well.)
 
 
All Acting Regiment
15:55 / 26.09.07
Partly it's because the tradition of "Westerners" getting dreadlocks, Maori tattoos, African masks and so on tends to be about using those things from colonised cultures as signifiers of "rawness", violence, brute strength, mindless sexuality, and so on - which is a totally unfair way of boxing up entire cultures. I beleive that for a Pakeha to go and get maori tattoos from another Pakeha is considered particularly offensive as it's often used to denote simple "hardness", whereas the Maori idea of a "warrior" is something much more nole and disciplined (like a knight or a samurai).

It's also that there's a huge disparity between the amount of "power to look" that various peoples have - people in America or Europe can grab a Maori tattoo or whatever very easily, whereas try getting access to Renaissance literature if you're a Maori. Even Maori students sometimes get barred from their university libraries as they're taken for gang members. I can go and find out about Mayan culture on the internet; the remaining Maya themselves live in such poverty that many of them don't have radios and tractors, never mind internet connections.

Pertaining to this thread, I believe tattooing is frowned upon in Islam. I'd need to check but that's another thing to think about. I don't read enough Arabic yet to tell you what the design means but can recognize two Arabic letters in that image.
 
 
Char Aina
16:00 / 26.09.07
one other line I thought might get close to the crux of the thing was:

what they're doing is enabled by a very unequal global socio-economic structure that puts them in a privileged position in relation to other people.

Is that accurate? Close?
 
 
Char Aina
16:06 / 26.09.07
tattooing is frowned upon in Islam

It is, but not across the board. It's also not-cool in Judaism, but again, not across the board.
 
 
HCE
16:23 / 26.09.07
Getting something that might mean "men's toilet" is way cooler than getting some boring thing that you understand already. It takes a real art-loving badass to tattoo a toilet sign on his chest just because it's that fucking beautiful.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
16:37 / 26.09.07
Well, _kind of_, yes. I mean, LC and Phex are aiming at two different things here - LC has (or had) an idea that he wants to translate into another language for tattooing, whereas Phex has come across an image he likes and is planning to have it tattooed on him - he would like to know what it means, but this is not a factor in his decision to get the image tattooed...
 
 
Mug Chum
17:05 / 26.09.07
It is, but not across the board. It's also not-cool in Judaism, but again, not across the board.

You mean, like, for Britney and Madonna?

I'll try to remember for you an brazillian sociologist whose main parts of his body of work was basically a critique of (I think he called it) "the culture of the 'cultural tourism industry'". It was on what Haus and Regiment were saying but through a more (somewhat tired) marxist angle on a colonial type of fetichism (and the fact that its very premise is of it being an industry, it behaves as such in what transforms the signs of what once was a "small step into the Other" into a flat mercantile exchange of signs -- striping their original meanings) and left overs of the concept being compared to Adorno's notion of appropriation in his "culture industry".

It wasn't too good, but very 101, simple and straight to the point. Just have to remember the guy's name (but people's suggestion here seems far more interesting than him to the point I'm already looking into it).
 
 
Alex's Grandma
17:26 / 26.09.07
Partly it's because the tradition of "Westerners" getting dreadlocks, Maori tattoos, African masks and so on tends to be about using those things from colonised cultures as signifiers of "rawness", violence, brute strength, mindless sexuality, and so on

I'm not sure if you can really lump those three items together, in terms of the reasons why Westerners might find them covetable. I take your point about Maori tattoos, but I'm not sure if the same set of motivations can be ascribed to, say, a Green protester who decides to grow dreadlocks as a vague gesture in support of the Rastafarian movement, or for that matter, an African American college student who grows them because it's a happening look. Similarly, it's presumably possible to buy a ceremonial mask on holiday simply because you admire the craftsmanship. If the artist who carved it is happy enough to sell you his work, I don't necessarily see the problem.

I'm not suggesting this is true of anyone on here, but I wonder if at times too much attention isn't paid to the appropriation of cultural symbols from country x, at the expense of the realities of actually living there.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
17:29 / 26.09.07
Sure, thanks for pointing that out.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
17:32 / 26.09.07
Oh, and CHaus, out of interest, how would the closest possible approximation of "I am a totally awesome ninja" in Latin translate back into contemporary English? In your considered opinion.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
17:42 / 26.09.07
Sure, thanks for pointing that out.

I'm sensing a degree of sarcasm here.
 
 
All Acting Regiment
17:47 / 26.09.07
None intended, I'm sorry if that's the impression I gave.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
17:53 / 26.09.07
Not to worry; I'm sorry for misreading your post.
 
 
Char Aina
18:30 / 26.09.07
LC has (or had) an idea that he wants to translate into another language for tattooing


Almost. I had an idea for a tattoo that was based on a Sufi saying that I first discovered in English. I wanted to return the phrase to it's original language and to do it after having come to an understanding about how the meaning and the calligraphy of the original Arabic(or as close to it as I could get) could be understood and manipulated without ruining the sense of them.

Language has a way of throwing up different meanings when you translate(and especially when you manipulate an alphabet too), and I wanted to aware of the potential issues.

I was also concerned with historical accuracy, with getting something an OG Sufi dude would understand. Y'know, for when I time travel.
 
 
Alex's Grandma
19:09 / 26.09.07
There's a lot to be said for getting "Whae's Like Us?", in tartan, inked in beneath one's kilt-line, I suppose. Or similar to do with Celtic, Hearts, Rangers, the battle of Bannockburn, the Saltire, 'Flower Of Scotland' etc. They're traditional tribal markings, in a way.

As a Scot, born and bred (and there is an argument which has Scotland as the most extensively colonised part of the English empire - hundreds of years later, the invaders are still there, in a way that just isn't true, or at least not quite so much these days, of say, Zimbabwe) I wonder why anyone would feel the need to look to other cultures for a sense of validation? In terms of what they had written on their arse?

Man, Scotland is a disgrace, but it's our disgrace, you know? In some vague sense that I can't really articulte, except perhaps in the form of more questions (and maybe, just maybe, there have been too many questions already?) aren't you denying your heritage at your peril.
 
  

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