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Personal profiles and gender

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20:42 / 02.02.04

So...

I'm assuming this must have been discussed in some form previously, but I'm just wondering how comes the profiles don't have a field for gender. Is this a deliberate decision designed to avoid turning Barbelith into a dating service?

It's just...sometimes I want to know whether a firm handshake or a kiss on the cheek is appropriate, yknow? And a lot of people's chosen names don't give much guidance. Is this seen as part of people's anonymity where they want it i.e. they'll choose a gender specific name/communicate in a gender specific way if they want to. Or even that the kind of gender-specific relational approaches I am describing are viewed dimly here.

Are there any factors to do with sexual orientation which are important here? For example, people don't want to have their behaviour judged in relation to their gender in an attempt to make assumptions about them?

What are people's thoughts about the implications of this?

21:49 / 02.02.04

Are there any factors to do with sexual orientation which are important here? For example, people don't want to have their behaviour judged in relation to their gender in an attempt to make assumptions about them?

Bingo. The general consensus seems to be that gender is far too complex a thing to be reduce to a simple M/F binary--and on the 'net, one is free to present in any way in which one chooses.

Many people prefer to present neither as "Male" or "Female," but simply as themselves: for them, gender is an unimportant consideration. For others, the male/female duality is entirely inadequate to capture their self-conception.

To this end, you may find the gender-neutral pronouns ze, s/he, and hir to be useful.

As to this:

It's just...sometimes I want to know whether a firm handshake or a kiss on the cheek is appropriate, yknow?

Why, 40% -- I'm afraid you've put me in a rather delicate position. Don't get me wrong--I like you fine--but I just don't like you that way.

22:51 / 02.02.04

Purely a matter of time, Jack...

00:48 / 03.02.04

I don't think that there's any reason that a domain for gender shouldn't exist. Most places like this offer the three options of male, female, and not saying, and Barbelith might appropriately leave it blank, like it does with "Location." But I wouldn't find it terribly useful.

Here on Barbelith, I use xe instead of ze. I think it looks better. I'm still fighting against the folks who try to pluralize the individual, the most grievous and unforgiveably crime against our language, today.

01:27 / 03.02.04

I like not having the gender field. It makes for interesting Barbe-meets to be sure...

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

08:36 / 03.02.04

You're not having your gender feeled? That's sad.

sorry...

I think it would not be worth the bother, to be honest- I imagine most people wouldn't see the need to go back to their profiles to fill it in, and many would choose to leave it blank anyway for reasons already discussed. Can't really see the harm in it, but can't really see the point, either. As it stands, people who want everyone to know which they are can do so in a much more natural way, in the course of a conversation.

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:21 / 03.02.04

"I don't kiss the men - I give them a firm handshake."

- Alan Partridge.

10:39 / 03.02.04

Originally posted by 5% nation in the Conversation forum:

I'm a GIRL.

Is that the sort of thing you had in mind, Stoatie?

11:23 / 03.02.04

offer the three options of male, female, and not saying

I don't think three would be nearly enough for barbelith, to be honest: I can already think of people here who are none of the above (ie, they might want to declare a gender which is neither male nor female).

Not exactly on-topic, but is there a general gender etiquette on barbelith, or do people have preferences? I tend to think it's polite to refer to people as 'ze' (or 'xe') even when their suit is openly and/or strongly gendered (bitchiekittie and Ganesh spring to mind as suits who seem to be fairly straightforwardly "a woman" and "a man") - certainly I'd prefer to be called 'ze' even though I've made numerous posts referring to my gender in less ambiguous terms.

Incidentally, SMatthewStolte, why is pluralizing the individual a grievous and unforgivable crime? I'm intrigued - it sounds like a tip-top notion to me.

Tryphena Absent

12:57 / 03.02.04

I try never refer to people by gender- actually I probably come across as quite rude because I tend to call people 'you' quite a lot. Sometimes it slips out by accident but I try to avoid it because I don't think it's necessarily a good primary definition. I don't use gender terms in precisely the same way that, in everyday life, I rarely use people's names unless I have a close relationship with them. 'Mum, Dad, Sam, Joe, Steph, George' are the only names I use with any regularity because I think it's rude to talk to people by their names if you don't know them. Sometimes I have to get round this by creating nicknames, I refer to people in my head by lengthening their names or translating them. There's 'Andreszju' and 'Vickswan' for example. So anyway I dislike this idea of displaying gender because there's no reason for it. The word 'ze' seems dysfunctional to me but only because I can't translate it as separate to 'he' in my mind-voice but I suspect it's rather like my nickname trick. Anyway it's like a personal dysfunction rather than a proper one.

I'm sorry that served no purpose at all.

Ex

15:08 / 03.02.04

It's just...sometimes I want to know whether a firm handshake or a kiss on the cheek is appropriate, yknow? And a lot of people's chosen names don't give much guidance.

Yeah, but - to be honest, I don't think that more gender information would help with the guidance. I think you could have a nicely engraved diagram illustrating someone's gender identification (or if you're of a more biological sex bent, a webcam trained on their genitals, with or without tiny genital monkey), and it wouldn't tell you how they wanted to be treated.

Overall, I like the disjunction between real life and the Net on this one. In life, yes, you often make certain assumptions about appropriate behaviour in relation to perceived gender (and I'm not singling you out for poking - I do it also). Online, though, you can either think "Damn! I've had a really useful tool removed and am fumbling in the dark" or take the chance to realise how often RL guidelines fuck things up, piss people off and let you down.

You'd probably get much more of an idea if there were tickboxes on the profiles for political shade, religious belief, essentialist tendencies, rock-ist v. disco purist. I don't see many toes being trodden on because of gender, while these invisible distinction cause all manner of misunderstandings and mild toasty flaming.

And I'd like a handshake, please. Or preferably, a manly Aragorn shoulder-squeeze.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

15:56 / 03.02.04

I'm sure that whatever the gender of the person on the receiving end, they will react whichever way they want to whatever you want to do. And if there was a gender field bear in mind that some people would almost certainly lie. And I would be one of them.

17:10 / 03.02.04

It's just...sometimes I want to know whether a firm handshake or a kiss on the cheek is appropriate, yknow?

But not knowing how to act and not carrying a load of preconceived ideas based on gender has something going for it too. I'm sure a lot of people here like playing with those ideas, though after a while most people give you some idea as to their gender.

I think there is something to be said for a optional bio, which people can fill in, or not, in the way they see as most appropriate. A box specifically for gender seems a little...limited.

19:05 / 03.02.04

Excellent post if I may say so, Ex. I definitely get what you're saying about other 'invisible distinctions'. I've often wished I had an internal checklist of people's beliefs sometimes, just so it would make sense of how and why my communication with them doesn't go smoothly.

As regards RL assumptions, I must admit I recently replied to a board member's post on the assumption that it was a bloke, then realised later it was a girl. And I was quite conscious that I had spoken to this girl with my 'talking to blokes' hat on, and I felt quite wierd about that.

Which is interesting (a) in terms of considering how I deal differently with males and females and why, and (b) the fact that in the absence of contrary indications, I assumed it was a bloke. In fact, in retrospect, there probably were contrary indications, but because of my 'gendercentricity', I overlooked them.

I had the same experience reading To Kill a Mockingbird. The main character was called Scout (not a typical female name), and I didn't spot any of the usual feminine signifiers, so I assumed it was a bloke. Even when her brother referred to her as 'she', I thought he must have been taking the piss out of 'him'. Even though it didn't quite sound like that. Anyone else find the same thing with that book? Probably not...

Many people prefer to present neither as "Male" or "Female," but simply as themselves: for them, gender is an unimportant consideration.

I'm not sure I buy that though. I would have thought saying "I have a penis, therefore I'm a man. Case closed" would be a indication of considering gender to be unimportant. Having lengthy discussions about the meaning of gender and deciding it's too complex to reduce to two categories suggests quite the opposite in my view. If something's not that important, you just slap a convenient label on it and move on. But when something's important, you think real hard about it...

Anyway, I don't think Barbelith treats anything as an unimportant consideration, and that's what I like about it.

19:08 / 03.02.04

By the way, I think I'm going to have to start collecting royalties for my kiss/handshake quote. It's a cash cow.

19:36 / 03.02.04

If something's not that important, you just slap a convenient label on it and move on.

Or you just ignore it entirely: do I need to know the color of your eyes, in order to know how I should treat you? Is eye-color a vital part of personal identity and social interaction? Should it be? Is gender? Again, should it be?

Here's a thought, and not a particularly radical one at that: why not treat people as people, not as "blokes" or "girls"?

I'll take a kiss on the cheek, please: but I'll have to undo my trousers first...

20:08 / 03.02.04

Incidentally, SMatthewStolte, why is pluralizing the individual a grievous and unforgivable crime? I'm intrigued - it sounds like a tip-top notion to me.

Because it's wrong. I'm an individual; I'm not a collection of people. And it has to be an unforgiveable crime, because I'm trying to win this assault on our language, and, on Barbelith for instance, the odds are currently somewhere around 3327 to 1 against me. So I'm using a bit of hyperbole. It isn't really keeping me up at night.

Regrettable Juvenilia

20:09 / 03.02.04

I would have thought saying "I have a penis, therefore I'm a man. Case closed" would be a indication of considering gender to be unimportant.

I'd agree in the sense that it might indicate that not much thought had been given to the subject, certainly.

20:48 / 03.02.04

Why, 40% -- I'm afraid you've put me in a rather delicate position. Don't get me wrong--I like you fine--but I just don't like you that way.

Told you you'd change your tune!

Now hurry up, I've not got all night.

21:18 / 03.02.04

Pucker up, Buttercup.

21:43 / 03.02.04

What does the tattoo say? I can't quite read it in this light.

00:50 / 04.02.04

100% CERTIFIED SMART

02:22 / 04.02.04

I'm all for pluralising the individual. I'm sure Julia Kristeva would approve. Though someone that's read more'n a few chapters by her can tell me otherwise and I'll wilt.

Because 'ze' and 'hir' are not words that anyone except Jack Fear uses vocally. And I've seen them dreadfully misused, like 'Look what ze've done' and other really irritating butcheries. And they just annoy me, innately. So very much.

Wasn't there a Head Shop thread about this ages ago? Or Conversation?

Anyway, you could have a gender box, in which people could type what they fancy, if anything. I like knowing stuff about the people I'm talking to, so I'm for it. But it isn't hugely important.

09:38 / 04.02.04

Because 'ze' and 'hir' are not words that anyone except Jack Fear uses vocally.

Yeah, but - unless I'm missing an upgrade to the board software - no-one interacts vocally here.

Regrettable Juvenilia

10:21 / 04.02.04

I shout at Barbelith all the time - does that count?

10:50 / 04.02.04

Not unless me muttering and swearing half-under-my-breath as I power myself up the hill to campus with barberage also counts, Fly.

12:18 / 04.02.04

For the record, I don't generally use "ze," either orally or in written communication: I prefer "s/he," which I pronounce in conversation as "shuh-hee."

17:14 / 04.02.04

There could just be an extra box in the profile for whatever use a member wants.. gender, comments, homepage, etc....

17:52 / 04.02.04

Eye colour...

What do people think of that idea? Couldn't hurt, could it? What do you reckon Tom?

18:20 / 04.02.04

I suspect that the posters who would use the extra box to reveal their gender would be the posters who were openly gendered in their name/posting style/comments anyway, which would make it a bit pointless on the 'gender' front. I liked it when we could have links to homepages, though.

18:36 / 04.02.04

Eye colour...

The style of Barbelith seems to be very simple and pragmatic, a nice contrast to the complex and utopian discussion on the board. While I wouldn't be wildly opposed to having a domain for eye color, per se, I do think we should be careful not to clutter up the board's style with every novelty we can think of.

18:43 / 04.02.04

Matthew - I refer you to Jack Fear's post at 22:36 03.02.2004.

23:48 / 04.02.04

But in which box do orange eyes feature?

Im fond of most people being genderless, and every so often you get a little suprise. Like when Money $hot started to discuss his pregnancy. Ok, it was his wife, but did promt me to ask "B..but I thought you were a man?"
I like the uncertainty.

And 40%, why not, in your location box, write "Brighton, England, and my penis lives there too"

00:54 / 05.02.04

S/he is fine with me, also. Just letting you know. But you do use 'hir', doncha Jack?

You are quite right, Deva. I've never quite adapted to this speaking to folks through their computers thing without thinking of it's antecedent, though.

05:53 / 05.02.04

Matthew - I refer you to Jack Fear's post at 22:36 03.02.2004.

Er... why? I'm feeling a bit dense, now. Were you being ironic with the eye color remark?

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