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Flirting with dark power systems & avant fascism

 
  

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Rage
13:03 / 18.01.04
"R.U.Sirius the old mondo 2000 editor guy once remarked that flirting with neo nazi imagery was about flirting with dark power systems and making that power benevolent, a kind of lead into gold, harnessing the power of dark imagery and subverting it."

In another thread I asked if this topic had been touched here, and since nobody responded I decided to make a post on it.

How do you guys feel about the fascist aesthetic? Recently it's been looking real hot to me. I like how it pushes the threshold of the average mind: takes people to places that they're afraid to go to: puts them in psychic areas that makes them squirm. Oh ya, and it's sexy! Girls in stompy boots and straps and chains... mmmmmm.... you can "dictate" me any day...

There's also the issue of exploring the fascist mindset: for some reason I'm very intruiged by what was going on in the mind of Hitler, Mussolini, Napoleon, etc. Would love to enter their minds the way Jennifer Lopez entered that serial killers mind in The Cell. This would be very dark and surreal and utterly fucking fascinating.

Maybe this is a phase that you went through when you were 11 or whatever, so I guess I'll just leave the topic to Head Shop treament. It's in your hands now, you hip intellectual bourgeois!
 
 
Boy in a Suitcase
15:51 / 18.01.04
Well, we all know what was going on in Hitler's mind: he just couldn't wait to get home and find out how "Ecstasy Club" by Douglas Rushkoff ends.

You know I just playin'
 
 
The Knights Templar Boogie Machine
17:19 / 18.01.04
In my mind, hitler was the first rave mc,The founder father of gabba techno, REAL hardcore. All those clouds of energy ascending into the aethyr ferociously manifesting....Also had the knack of being able to make people go wild when sometimes they probably had no idea what he was actually saying..Hell, just his prescence...
Colin Wilson remarked that although it is easy for us to envisage a hitler, or a mussolini , a malignant,powerful individual, its hard to imagine a benevolent figure exuding such charisma and prescence, which would suggest our collective psyche has a tendency to teeter toward the dark side...Well, as mentioned people like r.u. sirius and p.orridge utilised the imagery in an attempt to harness the power of such and subvert it...This is the road i take with such things, if you invoke dark forces whether mass media, occult or biological(and this does'nt have to apply to nazism,) and steal their power you can direct it into benvelonet ends, hell, demons get the job done......
Fascist imagery to me is sexy, god ,i'm probably warped, but girls in boots,leather etc. dominant really gets me...
Yeah, i think its a good thing to try and get into these mindsets, its good to try and explore every headset and glean the gold from it, whether it be christian,nazi,scientist,computer nerd etc...A synthesis and symbiosis between mindsets can create more connections in the brain = more freedom...
It'll be very easy to misunderstand a thread like this!.....
 
 
Phex: Dorset Doom
17:35 / 18.01.04
Yeah it was something I went through at 11, specifically in buying the Marilyn Manson record with the logo of Oswald's British Fascist party on the cover (okay, it was probably later than eleven, maybe fourteen or fifteen and my musical tastes have evolved considerably since then.)
What probably attracts people, young people in particular, to fascist imagery is the fact that this generation is presumed to have the same liberal morals as the previous generation (the one that grew out of the sixties) I'll admit I get pissed off when my peers can't seem to offer any other political opinions than knee-jerk leftism. Fascism is a way of saying 'fuck everything'. That said, I've had a few mates, and even an ex girlfriend, who reffered to themselves as Fascists.
Our culture expects us to be liberal, free-thinking, selfish, even anarchic in acceptable doses. The people on top make money from this. Fascism wants us to be slaves to somebody's arbitrary will.
And as for the sex thing, that more recent Marilyn Manson video with the line of Eva Braun can-can girls got my blood rushing southward. Totalitarianism is pretty much the ultimate S&M trip. I've always wondered whether there were dungeons set up to emulate the 'Room 101' scene from 1984, which also had deeper 'crossing the abyss' overtones to it, which is possibly the big picture behind all of this.

Oh, and BIAS, dig the marketing plug, and the use of the Britney Spears thing on your Disinfo.com article. (BIAS, in case you didn't know folks, is the guy at Disinfo working on Generation Hex, which me and a lot of 'lithers have submitted articles to)
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:29 / 18.01.04
How do you guys feel about the fascist aesthetic? Recently it's been looking real hot to me. I like how it pushes the threshold of the average mind: takes people to places that they're afraid to go to: puts them in psychic areas that makes them squirm.

Or it could just be a bit dull. Certainly, Marilyn Manson's use of fascist iconography seems to support the idea that it is terribly easy to use fascist imagery to upset people, because all the hard work of designing the clothes and killing people has already been done. From there, it's just a bit of a go with the sewing machine and a quick Internet search to make sure you've got the swastikas the right way round.

First up, we should probably think to distinguish "fascist aesthetic" with "nazi aesthetic" - they are, after all, not quite the same thing. Joy Division, New Order, Spear of Destiny and to a great extent Marilyn Manson are using Nazi imagery, as far as I can tell. Next up, it might be worth distinguishing between "fascist imagery" and "fascist ideology". Fascist imagery is imagery associated with fascism, whereas saying "I am a fascist" is an ideological position.

With these qualifications, I'd say there are some questions over where this thread could start off. One is the sexual appeal of fascist/Nazi aesthetics and how that works - whether it is ludic or serious, whether if the former it is actually possible to play with this sort of iconography, or whether it is in part a question of how smart you are. For example, one of the perennial issues of fetish club management is whether Nazi insignia should be allowed in the dress code, and also Nazi uniforms (two very different things - I've seen people in red PVC bustiers with swastikas over each nipple, and people in perfect recreations of SS trooper uniforms, and I'd suggest that the two carry a different semiotic charge). The main question is whether anything should be open to sexual reinterpretation in public spaces - that is, whether the desirability of allowing this form of sexual self-expression is balanced out by the difficulties of ensuring that it doesn't ruin anyone else's night - a logistical and financial as well as an ethical question.

Then there is the broader question of how one can subvert the imagery. Eroticising it may be seen as one sort of subversion, although one might say that is *starts out* eroticised. Another way might be recontextualisation - the location of fascist and/or Nazi imagery in incongruous places. One could also look at how the lasting aesthetic impressions of fascism can inform our symbolic languiage - taking, for example, the recent addition of a toothbrush moustache to a press photograph of Fidel Castro as a starting point...

Put another way, maybe the question is whether one *can* perform Sirius' alchemical trick, or whether the aesthetic itself cannot be reclaimed, only juxtaposed, lampooned or recontextualised - sort of slingshotting on the energies rather than actually altering them...
 
 
--
01:38 / 19.01.04
Well, obviously I find some interest in the topic, as it was bands like TG (and later Whitehouse) that turned me on to it, and of course you could look at writers like Sotos. In a way facism could be compared to S&M on a gigantic scale I suppose. I'm not quite sure if I find it sexy however... I do tend to find the idea of serial killer sex crimes sexy at times, though not when it actually happens in real life. Better to indulge in fantasies rather then just ignore them and then have them manifest in real life, I say. I've heard some power electronics musicians say that...

However, there is one type of violence I will never find sexy and that is cat killing. People who kill cats are sick, perverted individuals and should be executed. Executed I say!
 
 
diz
03:27 / 19.01.04
which also had deeper 'crossing the abyss' overtones to it, which is possibly the big picture behind all of this.

i think you've hit the nail on the head here, Phex. part of the paradox here is that a good chunk of the allure (though certainly not all) is the forbidden aspect of it, the fact that you are messing around with very dark juju, so to speak, and discussions like this tend to be like asking whether or not "it's OK" to play with fascism. however, if it were "OK", then it wouldn't have the taboo-shattering power it does. i'm just as guilty in this respect as anyone else, mind you, looking for permission from somewhere before i sneak some fascist meme-let into my fantasy life.

you can't make "crossing the abyss" safe and clean and nice. it's ugly, and scary, and dangerous, and that's kind of how it has to be, if you take my meaning. i think that, for the foreseeable future, Nazi and other fascist imagery and such, is going to remain an uncomfortable, dangerous spot, and that's how it should be if it's going to have any value.
 
 
Cat Chant
07:42 / 19.01.04
In a way facism could be compared to S&M on a gigantic scale I suppose.

In what way? I never quite get this, possibly because I tend to associate fascism with 'death camps', which aren't about either sadism or masochism. S&M and Nazism - I don't know about fascism more generally - seem to me to be conceptually incommensurable. Hannah Arendt said that totalitarian regimes are characterized by 'banality'. I can see that Nazism provides the stage & the props for playing out already existing S&M scenes and tropes (though I'm not sure exactly what or exactly how fascist imagery contributes to those scenes of fantasy - are they just generic 'interrogator/victim' with optional swastikas?), but - I don't know. Me personally, I don't find the idea of sitting in an office signing papers for the reassignment of x number of gypsies to a labour camp to be a particularly hot scene. On the other hand, I find the Ralph Fiennes/Jewish maid scenes in Schindler's List to be repulsive, indefensible and lying, because they reduce the historical setting to one among many versions of a standard requirement of the romance plot ("He's a Nazi! She's a Jew! They're star-crossed!") with no attention to the particularities of the situation.

Could you be a bit more specific about how and why fascist imagery is a good resource for exactly what sorts of sexual practices?
 
 
diz
08:33 / 19.01.04
Could you be a bit more specific about how and why fascist imagery is a good resource for exactly what sorts of sexual practices?

fascism is strongly dualistic, dividing literally everything in existence (all the world, all of history, etc) into male/active/positive/virile/yang/dominant and female/passive/negative/sick/yin/submissive. it then sublimates the male erotic drive into the forward march of technology, civilization, and the deified Will, but in the process of so doing it charges every act with a totally over-the-top erotic energy.

fascism carries an erotic charge for so many people because it's so overwhelmingly polarized and so all-encompassing. it's the adoration of conquest, speed, purging/cleansing on such an epic scale it almost defies belief. these people saw themselves as cleansing history itself of weakness, for Pete's sake. i mean, look at the Nuremberg rallies and imagine yourself to be carrying a torch in perfect formation, part of the unstoppable juggernaut, the living machine that will purge humanity of all its flaws forever. or, picture yourself as one of those "flaws."

to be the fascist in a fascist system is to essentially embody Power and Conquest and the sheer force of Will, without apologies or weakness or half-steps, while to be the victim/slave of said fascist is to utterly embody abasement, vilification, corruption, etc., to be totally without worth.

for some people fascism (and fascist imagery) is a gateway to really profound experiences of domination and submission. it taps into some heavily primal shit for a lot of people.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:16 / 19.01.04
its hard to imagine a benevolent figure exuding such charisma and prescence

Gandhi? Martin Luther King jr.? I understand what you mean but I don't think it's quite on the mark. A leader is a leader and I suspect it's circumstance that truly effects the type of leader that they are.
 
 
--
13:10 / 19.01.04
Oh come now Deva, you're telling me that there was no erotic factor involved in the medical crimes of Josef Mengele? This is a man who kicked pregnant women in the stomach until their babies aborted for pete's sake... Many of the death camp commanders come off as sadists imo. I think Mengele's bullshit about doing all this for the good of science was just a wall to hide off the fact that he got off doing that kind of stuff.
 
 
Cat Chant
13:31 / 19.01.04
This is a man who kicked pregnant women in the stomach until their babies aborted for pete's sake...

The link between that and S&M isn't intuitively obvious for me, since as I understand it S&M is a set of explicitly sexualized fantasies and practices, and kicking pregnant women in the stomach is a form of assault, legitimized by Mengele as medical experimentation, not as a conscious sex act. I'm not saying there's not a link, it's just that I don't see it myself so I need the intermediate steps that are intuitive to some people spelt out for me. (In which regard, thanks a lot, dizfactor, that was really interesting. I'm thinking about it.)
 
 
--
15:03 / 19.01.04
Isn't kicking pregnant women until they abort right out of De Sade's "120 Days of Sodom" (I'm not claiming Mengele read that book, mind).
 
 
El Presidente
17:50 / 19.01.04
Yeah, I think its one of THE LUSTS OF THE LIBERTINES.

The colour out of> I'm not sure if the Dualistic nature of Fascism is what makes it erotic in nature, I think you're right about the all encompasing nature of it as a key to its eroticism. Other societal ideologies now work by creating individual needs to achive societies goals, so capitalism now markets to an ever more personal degree and each individual is given a need to perform their part in society because they feel it benefits themselves and they operate from themselves as a center. Fascism seems to deny individual identity, to an outside obsever it seems to be a kind of pyschosis in which the Fascist loses or denies any sense of self. I think the reason that this leads to such violence and eroticism is that one of the cores of the modern human pysche are our moral belifs (and this is is now being used as a marketing tool for media conglomerates, lets see what happens when our morals are just another product we can choose to buy), and in the Monotheisms the two greatest evils were Murder and deviant sexual acts.

I don't think that humans have a natural need to kill, but I do think that they have a natural need to fuck and that its only natural they would experiment and do what feels good. Traditional religions and laws have designated certain practises immoral or illegal and like it or not that has penetrated the very core of our being.

Fascism has erotic power because of is surrender to the self as a constantly changing entity (but has the backup of following anothers rules so in a sense it is cowardly because there is never the fear of losing one self entirely or to insainty).

So basically the erotic power of Fascism comes from the idea of learning sexually completely free of any conditioned responses to sexual encounters/situations.

Sorry if that is all rubbish, I was making notes and going to rewrite it all, or at least read it again, but now I don't have time. Sorry.
 
 
The Knights Templar Boogie Machine
14:32 / 20.01.04
‘its hard to imagine a benevolent figure exuding such charisma and prescence.’

Sorry, I don’t actually agree with wilson’s statement myself . I was meant to elaborate there and cite such examples as you mentioned tryphena .I think although such benevolent figures exist, the dark side has a much more dynamic side to it if you will. I think a fusion of these two extremes will get us to where we want to go…The speculation of the nature of this process/result is something best left for the magick section…...
 
 
Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes
22:42 / 23.01.04
“Although it is easy for us to envisage a Hitler, or a Mussolini , a malignant, powerful individual, its hard to imagine a benevolent figure exuding such charisma and presence,”

In my own personal opinion, the above statement is a load of shit. Although I would like to say that people who admire Hitler et al are sad lonely individuals, chances are they are major shareholders in your company (or your manager) the tenets of Fascism have slowly been absorbed into our society via “work”, employment capitalism.
I think Hannah Ardent best summed up evil by calling it banal. Hitler was no cultural Aesthete, he and his party were the political equivalent of Friends; immensely popular, devised by a group aiming for a specific goal (in the case of Friends, to make people laugh).
Ardent was speaking of bureaucracy, but I believe that art can expose the prevalence of Nazi ideology by ridiculing it.

“Fascism is a way of saying 'fuck everything'.” No, it is a way of saying “I am superior to you”. Phex you are a wanker.

The erotic power of fascism comes from the fact that you are probably a corporate slave and work is inherently fascistic. You want to sooth your ego.
 
 
+#'s, - names
06:51 / 24.01.04
Turning Fascism and Nazism into a fetish is creepy. All it says is the person has no real control over their world and are effectively damaged goods, and by acting out fantasies and interests in such "dark territories" (whatever) they are actually saying, I have some kind of control over my fucked up life. But getting aroused by one of the biggest gangs of bullies in the known history of the world, what is that really saying? Marilyn Manson was probably picked on by athletic types in high school, feels really bad about it, and now is in a position to say to the world, gee wiz, I'm totally scary! I'm not afraid to surround myself with such taboo things. I'm not this pasty faced wimp who could never do anything before. (I just had a vision in my head, of Maryln Manson in the movie the jerk, and instead of goofy big band music he hears Skinny Puppy and jumps up and yells This is the kind of music that tells me to go out there and be somebody!

Naming himself after someone like Charles Manson is really just a mockery of the death's of Abigail Folger, Sharon Tate, Voytek Frykowski, Jay Sebring, Steve Parent, Leno & Rosemary LaBianca, Gary Hinman, etc., just names on a screen to the reader of this, but also people that were alive and doing their things. Just like I do my thing every day. Nothing too exciting, but it's a living. Better than being dead.

I'm sure I don't come across as cool, or transgressive, but I don't really care to obsess about serial killers, or concentration camps, or the other horrors of the world. I find nothing sexy about dead people. I find nothing sexy in play acting evil. I went to Dachau, it was disturbing, I saw the never used gas chambers, and not because they had a change of heart, but only because they didn't have time to carry out the "final solution". It's not the kind of thing I would want to play around with. You can't fill your mind with garbage and not expect it to have some lasting effect on you. But most likely, I just don't get it, and I am actually one of the sheep that deserves to be spit upon and all I really want is my train to come on time.
 
 
eddie thirteen
16:05 / 24.01.04
"Turning Fascism and Nazism into a fetish is creepy. All it says is the person has no real control over their world and are effectively damaged goods..."

I suppose it could say that, but I'd think long and hard about the full ramifications of such a notion before I expressed this kind of bold allegiance to it. The second part, I mean; I would certainly agree that Fascism and Nazism are *themselves* creepy, though not so much with the idea that the fetishization of them is, which seems to me to be contingent upon who is doing the fetishizing, why, and what they're getting out of it. So like...yeah, I'm with you on the first half of your first idea. But that whole second part -- "All it says is," etc. -- man, I don't know. Couldn't that same argument be extended to anything that a person embraces for its empowering aspects? I mean, most magical belief systems are about some kind of empowering transcendance (or empowering acceptance) of one's life and circumstances; if one were completely satisfied with one's lot as it stands, I don't see why that person would need to seek empowerment. By extension, you're basically saying that anyone who doesn't have what they want out of life and themselves, right now, in this second, is a pathetic, "damaged" person, who might as well just accept how lame they are; even that person's attempts to change him/herself serve only as indicators of their deep-down pitifulness.

Now I imagine you're reacting to a personal distaste for...um...Nazis, which is certainly understandable and not exactly a stance that's likely to cause much controversy (probably no one is about to reply, "But I LOVE Hitler!"), but it seems clear that an embrace of Nazism isn't what's being discussed here. The idea -- I think -- is that power, symbols, etc., cannot be in and of themselves "evil." A person who was not a Nazi or a Fascist could co-opt the tropes of these things, previously used for nasty purposes, and make something new with them.

It might be relevant to note that the swastika was not designed by the Nazis; you find it in several other cultures, pre-Third Reich. Hitler co-opted it, and now it's associated with him, and with the Nazi Party -- in a very real, obvious way, he took its power for himself. You could conclude that the symbol is now forever tainted, useless for any other purposes...but isn't that giving Hitler a great deal of power? I don't see any reason why someone else can't steal the swastika (as Hitler stole it), and I certainly don't see any reason why notions original to Nazis can't suffer the same fate. (Notions of, say, fashion, at any rate -- and I'm sorry, but I like a tall, nordic-looking girl in thigh-high black leather boots, and if a boner for Ilsa, She-Wolf of the SS makes me a sleaze or a guy with very serious control issues, a person who is in fact "damaged," I can accept that, but I hardly see where you get the moral wherewithal to make that judgment *for* me, based on having seen a concentration camp -- but yes, I will agree that a recipe for turning a human being into a candle is probably *only* useful for purposes that are negative and wrong no matter who's doing the candlemaking.) A fear of Nazi symbolism actually, to me, implies that it is (in some taboo way) sacred. And I mean, fuck that.

On the other hand, if someone is "fetishizing" Nazi culture, and what they really mean by that is that they're in some cool, ironic way just being a violent anti-Semite, then I feel that person should be beaten soundly about the head until s/he returns to his/her senses. And maybe goes outside and gets some sun or something.
 
 
Cat Chant
19:13 / 24.01.04
Phex you are a wanker.

P*******y, please avoid personal attacks like this.

If you think that "work is inherently fascistic", you might want to read Hannah Arendt's book The Human Condition (written after The Origins of Totalitarianism) on the value of work.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
23:24 / 24.01.04
I have two questions: why are so many people in this thread necessarily equating fascism, a political ideology with one form of fascism? There seems to be a real hang up with Nazism here that no one has even started to explain.

Secondly Number Nun said this: I find nothing sexy in play acting evil and personally that's a fine stance to take but I want to know if you have this reaction to all forms of S&M? There are a lot of people who basically hurt each other in the name of sex because that's what they get off on but do you discern between a person torturing* another and the acting out of a fascist fantasy? There are acres of difference between these acts but I'm not sure that you can entirely accept one and reject the other.

Finally what is this myth hanging around that fascism is creepy? It's not creepy, it's aggressive, only the movies make it creepy and old film of Hitler with his weird, harsh voice and fools who idealise and fetishise one movement within fascism. It's a far right political ideology and accepting it as creepy gives it a power that frankly it doesn't deserve.

*Oh and in case anyone wants to engage me in some pointless argument about the use of the word torturing up there I just don't want to hear it. I don't give a shit if people dress up in uniform or burn each other if they want to. In fact they have a right to do it and you're more foolish if you secretly want to do these things and are too fucking repressed to get on with it. I hope my position on all of this is now clear.
 
 
Pants Payroll
00:04 / 25.01.04
"It might be relevant to note that the swastika was not designed by the Nazis; you find it in several other cultures, pre-Third Reich. Hitler co-opted it, and now it's associated with him, and with the Nazi Party -- in a very real, obvious way, he took its power for himself. You could conclude that the symbol is now forever tainted, useless for any other purposes...but isn't that giving Hitler a great deal of power? I don't see any reason why someone else can't steal the swastika."
Tangentially off topic, this guy is trying to take back the swatstika. Some argue that it should remain associated with naziism as a reminder of the atrocities of the holocaust. i'm pretty sure nobody would forget. It's too old and powerful a symbol for one guy to have fucked it up all time.
 
 
The Knights Templar Boogie Machine
20:31 / 25.01.04
Hmmm, I don't find fascism itself sexy, was more on about uniform etc in some mild s + m way...I wasn’t taking that part too seriously...Ok, ok, the idea of a group of individuals either a repressed minority or with revolutionary ideals, forming a cult, cabal, network, then performing acts of ontological terrorism on society in order to awaken people from their prejudice and their chauvinism is a classic romantic set-up that a lot of people here probably subscribe or have subscribed to .For utopian memes dispersed by such groups (or individuals)to spread with the same power akin to that of hitlers lunatics would be a desired result in some factions , and an ironic poke at nazism itself if the message/ideal succeeds in propagating itself.(Note, I am only talking here about groups with a positive aim). ‘Black’ people took back the word 'nigger' and used it to positive effect, letting it spread into the vocabulary of thousands of ‘Black’ Americans as a verbal tool for resistance against their oppressors. Words, concepts, symbols can be reclaimed from malignant bureaucracy and governing forces and can be made to work in a positive way if the context and placement are altered or the icon itself modified. The relationship between the symbol and the idea can be a purely subjective one, whose meaning is defined by the media and cultural placement (manipulated by those seeking to control whatever it is they wish to control, see Mcluhan,Rushkoff etc.)e.g, in the world of advertising we can associate a certain image with a product and forget of its place outside the context its being used in . The swastika, already mentioned (also known as a sunwheel) is an ancient symbol, which ironically I read that Hitler reversed, to go against the cycle of the sun which it represents …
It does seem that this thread is equating nazism synonymously with fascism, but I think it’s the nature of fascist imagery were talking about here, and nazism does seem to have the most potent infamous symbolism , and so a good example that we all can recognise and discuss…Other dictatorships seem to be sometimes profoundly anti-image, even considering image itself too subversive, as in the case of Polpot painting all signs in Cambodia completely white and thus devoid of any meaning……
Ok, just trying to clear a few things up here!
 
 
Rage
06:41 / 26.01.04
Pants payroll, I've gotta say- that swastika covered hippie is hilarious looking!

Ok now, I've seen weird Nazi films. Strange mixes of Geroge W. Bush speeches and Third Reich images and extremely fucked up looking cartoons. Lots of independent guerrilla film types like to fool around with Nazi imagery in their projects. A lot of this is used to make a statement about other things that are going on, such as the Bush regime and the blind obedience of his followers. Hey... it's all nazi-like! Plus, some of the films are just funny. Play with Burroughs style cut-up remix art film shit and you've got the underground fooling around with Third Reich imagery. I myself am meme-ing Adolf Hitler to be associated with Douglas Rushkoff for sheer amusment.

One of the reasons I think this shit gets created is because of how forbidden Nazism is in American culture. (probably in the UK too- I'm sure you guys have seen your share of similar stuff) I'm pretty sure that people got sick of the crap in Germany a while back. What I'm wondering is why people (this thread is a perfect example) automatically start talking about Nazi's when fascism is mentioned. Doesn't that make them less willing to explore the idea of fascism itself? How are you ever gonna explore the possibility of fascism being erotic when all you can think about is the horrors inflicted upon Jewish people during the Third Reich?

I'm Jewish as we come, and I certainly don't think that having sex in a concentration camp would be hot, but there's something about commanding thousands and thousands of people to do your will that excites me. (as a "chaos magician," as a young girl rebelling against communist punk rock, whatever) It's powerful and it's forbidden and it's fascinating. The issue isn't if your will is to exterminate anyone who isn't a white aryan or if your will is to exterminate anyone who believes that Douglas Rushkoff actually has something new to say, but that you have the *power* to make a large large shitload of people submit to your will.

The dominatrix gets one to person submit to them, maybe two or three or twenty. The dictator gets thousands and thousands. Viewing the dominatrix as a sort of sexual dictator can greatly increase the pleasure of the participants. Think about issues of slave and master. So many slaves in a fascist society! How can the sexual slave not get off on fascism? And then there's the issue of hot sadistic chicks in stompy boots that want to "command" you. I think that people need to start thinking of fascist power systems when fascism is mentioned, as opposed to Nazi this Nazi that. On another note, if people could think of what they would do if they were a fascist dictator they'd be able to explore entirely new areas of consciousness. Doesn't matter if you consider yourself a liberal or a socialist or an anarchist or what- it's about seeing how far your mind is willing to go.

It seems like there are a lot of issues in this thread- fascist systems and erotic fascism and now Nazism. So maybe this thread needs to have a few breakaways... I had no idea it would lead off into so many different directions. There's such a mess here.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:24 / 26.01.04
Yes if people really want to talk about the idea of reclaiming symbolism and specifically the swastika perhaps it would be a good idea to start a separate discussion on it.

As a quick aside- What I'm wondering is why people (this thread is a perfect example) automatically start talking about Nazi's when fascism is mentioned

Think about it like this, the Nazis systematically killed a lot of people thus becoming the most prominent fascists in European history. They create a significant number of refugees that flee to Britain and the US and rarely talk about their experiences. These refugees have children and they react very strongly to the hidden experience of their parents who for the most part won't talk about what happened coherently. The children also have children and the grandparents start to talk to them, they find out all about the internment camps, travelling, integration in to another culture. The experience becomes part of the collective unconscious- something that scares an entire society because so many people have been effected by it first hand, second hand and third hand. We talk about Nazism because almost every single person on Barbelith knows someone whose family was devastated by it.
 
 
Rage
07:49 / 29.01.04
My mom knows a few survivors... I'd really like to meet them one of these days. This is a completely different issue that I feel belongs in a place a lot more emotional than the Head Shop.

I still say that the automatic association of fascism (which is amazing concept to artistically, sexually, and mentally explore) with nazism is preventing you guys from touching a very interesting world out there. Leftist peon cakes! Burn burn! ::starts running around the board making fun of each and every one of you because there is no escaping The Rage hahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAhahaha you guys are lame and old and uncool and unwilling to explore fascist perspectives::
 
 
Cat Chant
08:39 / 29.01.04
the automatic association of fascism... with nazism is preventing you guys from touching a very interesting world out there.

Hmm. See, to me asking us to think about fascist aesthetics/sign systems/etc without thinking about Nazism is sort of like asking us to think of a tomato without thinking of the colour red. I guess I think that's at the heart of the interesting difficulty with this whole topic, not just a separation that you can immediately make and then get on with the fun fascist fantasy.

I mean, if not Nazism/death camps/racial hatred, why fascism in particular? Why not just S/M (slave/master)? Come to think of it, slavery is just as morally repugnant and unsexy in its reality as Nazism: why doesn't that touch on as many 'difficult' psychic places?

I also think that for me, one of the reasons the fascist aesthetic doesn't do that much for me - though I'm hugely interested in why and how it does work for people, and how it can be "redeemed" or subverted - is because it's not forbidden, even slightly, in the environment I'm in. We teach The Triumph of the Will to second year undergraduates, there's a lot of Holocaust-studies research going on (I spent all last semester reading Remnants of Auschwitz), our department is v influenced by the Frankfurt School and its heirs (including Slavoj Zizek and Giorgio Agamben, both of whom have written on the complicity between modern social democracy and totalitarianisms), etc.

So for me fascism isn't a forbidden, transcendent system of thought, it's one that's inextricably part of modern social-democratic and aesthetic thinking: it's mundane and stupid. Having said that, given that the totalitarian trend in social democracy is pretty well repressed, there's probably a great deal to be said for certain tactical uses of fascist aesthetics.
 
 
Cat Chant
16:58 / 13.03.04
Listening to Sheep on Drugs Uberman, started thinking about this thread again, in the context of the broader lefty/political question of the relation between pleasure and, um, progressiveness, I suppose. Laura Mulvey at one point put forward the idea that we should destroy the particular brand of pleasure offered by mainstream Hollywood narrative cinema, as it was a form of sadistic scopophilia and/or fetishism which reinforced the viewer's... Oedipalization, I suppose. Walter Benjamin similarly identified a particular form of spectatorship - the contemplation of a great work of art, standing before it in an attitude of worship or awe, as opposed to the apprehension of architecture in a mode of distraction - as 'Fascist'.

What do we do about the pleasures we gain from such modes of engagement with cultural artefacts? What are their dangers? And this has cleared something else up for me, or maybe made visible a potential line of argument/distinction: that is, that the mode of engagement with Fascist aesthetics in some of the ways that Rage describes is not itself fascist: participating in an SS officer/Jew 'scene' in a sexual context is a very different mode of pleasure from participating in a Fascist rally or, for that matter, watching The Triumph of the Will. So maybe that's a way to look at the question - the relation between mode of engagement and subject matter or aesthetic or whatever.

Though I'm still interested to know what people think about the specificity of fascism here, as opposed to, f'rex, slavery which is similarly unsexy in its real world manifestation. Partly because people have different modes of subjectivity in situations where they are 'really' masters and slaves, where the slave can't withdraw consent? Modes of subjectivity, modes of pleasure...
 
 
penitentvandal
15:33 / 14.03.04
As someone who's carried out rituals which were basically mini-Nuremburg(sp?) Rallies in order to unleash my inner fascist dictator, I suppose I am kind of qualified to comment on this...

There's an attraction, magickally, for me, in using the power of the Dictator archetype in ritual, which is interesting, because sexually I'm more of a masochist...the Dictator is a powerful magickal self to use because he is, of course, all-powerful, or just about. Come to think of it, I think the idea of the Dictator fits nicely into the Horus current: you know, 'do what I say or I'll kill ya! Nah!'

But: but, but, but. But...I can't ignore the fact that I would hate to live in a fascist society for real, and my attraction to the archetype of the Dictator really stems more from an extreme anarchist position - being the Dictator allows you absolute freedom to do whatever you want. A truly fascist society, however, is one in which, as has been pointed out, individual desire is curbed or channeled for the good of the whole, and presumably the leader of a fascist society would feel some kind of genuine (if twisted) obligation to that whole. The real horror of someone like Hitler is not the thought of him as some embodiment of the Nietszchean will-to-power ruthlessly manipulating the people of Germany to get his way, but the fact that the man actually believed he was doing good. His power of oratory, the 'charisma' people speak of, actually came from this absolute conviction that what he was doing was the right course of action. Obviously this adds another level of crinkly fractal complexity to those of us who flirt with fascist tropes because of their assumed 'badness'. I'd really argue that people who do so are more anarchist than fascist anyway. I know I am.

An interesting thought: by flirting with fascist imagery, do people like Marilyn Manson et al actually serve to draw attention to its 'badness' because they self-consciously use it because of its taboo aspects? And does this make the demon of fascism more powerful, or does it serve as a continuing innoculation against fascism by continually drawing attention to the badness? Hmmm...
 
 
Hieronymus
17:40 / 14.03.04
And the S&M symbolism within the fasces is pretty much undeniable, with the State as the ultimate rod whipping, axe wielding dom.

fascism carries an erotic charge for so many people because it's so overwhelmingly polarized and so all-encompassing. it's the adoration of conquest, speed, purging/cleansing on such an epic scale it almost defies belief.

And to me there's an irony in that with regards to fascism and S+M scenarios, both are slightly one-trick ponies. That is it to say that they tend to be rather stagnant and repetitive, that the same one-act play keeps getting played over and over and over again in a very dull and almost anesthetizing way.
 
 
Grand Panjandrum of the Pointless
19:19 / 14.03.04
I don't think that the Fascist (or Nazi) aesthetic icons existing in the world are really potent or interesting at all. They're just dead. Since well before the fall of Hitler fascist iconography has been a joke in the West- cf Spode in PG Wodehouse and Chaplin's The Great Dictator. In the UK in the 1980s there was even a primetime sitcom which (admittedly very mildly) sent up the whole Gestapo S&M thing- Herr Flick and Helga in Allo Allo So I think Deva is right about Nazi aesthetic stuff not being taboo in any way.(Tho' there is of course a lot of touchy ground concerning what they actually did to people as Anna mentioned above)
Marilyn Manson's usage of Nazi bits and pieces is thus nothing more than sterile uninventive kitsch. I don't buy into the belief that anyone's mindset is usefully challenged by the reappropriation of SS uniforms, because anyone naïve or stupid enough to re-evaluate their politics because of them is unlikely to have their worldview meaningfully reshaped by anything at all. I mean how's the thought process of the challengee supposed to work here?
"Fascists have cool, sexy clothes. Therefore they have a coherent political ideology that I must support."
Would a super-evolved cyber-fascist really want someone who thought like this in their movement? It might do for enslaving the willing Masses later on, but I severely doubt whether it would be sufficient to attract the discerning Ubermensch upon which the success or failure of the thing would depend. The real virtues of Fascism (such as they are) lie elsewhere, in its potential for high levels of social organization and productivity.
I don't wish to pour scorn on the potential of more developed totalitarian/authoritarian systems- I think they are a very real (and frightening) prospect. But I think that if they do emerge they will develop their own aesthetic, rather than piggy-back on the debased iconography of a bunch of twentieth century failures. If I were an avant-fascist I would be working on an entirely new way of making authoritarian behaviour look appealing. Perhaps this could take up on the 'mode of engagement' thing Deva mentions above. The kind of provocative actions Rage suggests at the top of the thread seem to me to be inevitably counter-productive in this sense, because if performed in the context of current social conditions they are very unlikely to trigger an authentic fascist mode of engagement. If you want to do that, you need something much bigger and much more immersive. Something that is large and is a manifestation of power +which evokes both the fear and the comfort of being sheltered by something huge and all-powerful. Perhaps something like a less benign version of Olafur Eliasson's huge installation at Tate Modern.
 
 
Cat Chant
08:17 / 15.03.04
The kind of provocative actions Rage suggests at the top of the thread seem to me to be inevitably counter-productive in this sense, because if performed in the context of current social conditions they are very unlikely to trigger an authentic fascist mode of engagement

I think Rage, and certainly myself and I suspect many of the other posters on this thread, are more interested in using such actions and aesthetics to trigger an authentically anti-fascist mode of engagement. So 'counter-productive' here = 'productive'.

Would a super-evolved cyber-fascist really want someone who thought like this in their movement? It might do for enslaving the willing Masses later on, but I severely doubt whether it would be sufficient to attract the discerning Ubermensch upon which the success or failure of the thing would depend.

This is also intriguing, particularly since it is so entirely opposed to Hannah Arendt's canonical analysis of fascism in The Origins of Totalitarianism. Annoyingly I don't have the book to hand, but she basically says that the enabling condition for fascism to come to power in a state is the transformation of the people of a state from classes into a mass: that it is the condition of being a mass, outside the mechanisms of democratic political representation which are premised on the organization of people into classes, which allows totalitarianism to appear. So she would argue precisely that 'enslaving the willing masses' is the prerequisite for successful fascist organization.
 
 
Grand Panjandrum of the Pointless
21:05 / 15.03.04
To deal with the points in order:
1.'Counter-productive' was a careless choice of word. 'Unproductive' would have been better. I appreciate the intention of flirting with these systems, but just don't believe it has any effect at all, for the reasons outlined in my last post.

2. I haven't read Arendt at all- but here is my take on how it this sort of thing might work:
I think that the idea about the loss of class roles as enabling condition is valid, but that the genesis of a fascist state requires more than this. Specifically, class society has to reform to a limited extent and in a v.different way, with a much smaller elite class dominating a much larger subservient one. Obviously one needs slave drivers if one is to have a slave state. And the process of recruiting them must logically precede that of subjugating the masses, since such subjugation cannot occur without them.
Thus enslaving the willing masses is a, not the prerequisite for successful fascist organisation. Necessary but not sufficient.
But maybe I should actually go and read the damn book.
 
 
Michelle Gale
11:45 / 19.03.04
i think nazism served a social purpose in a more global social context .
But fundamentally it is completely flawed there is no balance or equilibrium in its ideology it is geared purely toward destruction of anything "other", and as a result is ultimatly stagnant as it destroys any dialectic that may occor. And i think the whole Nazi aesthetic is quite flat and lacking in subtlety, but power is kind of sexy i suppose but...there all just a bit dull really them Nazi types, and try a bit too hard
.
 
 
Horatio Hellpop
12:38 / 19.03.04
i think "stagnant" is not entirely accurate. in fact, i think fasicm, precisely because of its "destruction of any dialectic that may occur," is inherently chaotic. stable systems require balance and diversity.
 
 
Saturnine
04:48 / 30.03.04
See, to me, the people on this thread are confusing the Nazi aesthetic with the Nazi reality - which is the whole point of the aesthetic in the first place.

The Nazi aesthetic was designed to mask the reality - if it wasn't appealing, if it didn't get your juices flowing, then Hitler would not have used it. I get off on it; and I would argue that if you don't, you're either lying or you have no sense of aesthetics. For some reason, the use of simple shapes and colours appeals to the human mind. It gets us off. As does the feeling that someone, anyone, is firmly in power and we can't do anything about it so we might as well submit.

The Nazi reality however, tarnishes our modern eye because we have hindsight. We know, after that split second of attraction, that the people that originally wore those uniforms. They beat people, they raped women, they shot small children in the head. We've all seen the pictures of the pits they dug to bury the bodies, and I've read accounts of a forest on the edge of Auschwitz where, if you kick your feet along the floor, grey cloouds of ash from burnt bodies fly up.

Some people associate the two things - I don't. I try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I separate what I like from what I don't like, and try and enjoy what is there. I like the period of history - the reign of Hitler is a fascinating study into human behaviour and conformity, as well as the underground cultures that sprung up and the fallout after the war. As long as you don't take it too far - eg : you want to dress up in the uniform every once in a while and then start believing the spiel that Hitler spouted - and remember the reality of the uniform you are getting off on, then where is the harm? Delving into mythology is something we all do.
 
  

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