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The Invisibles- It's everywhere!

 
  

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Bronzehedgehog
23:39 / 01.01.04
I came across the Invisibles a couple of years ago and have slowly follwed the threads of it's influences and influenced. Perhaps it's just because I'm not as well-read as I'd like to be, but all of these ideas and influences seemed to me to be distant from the mainstream that I'd encountered.


But then I got to thinking.

The 'His Dark Materials' trilogy by Philip Pullman has seen a big resurgence in the British media recentley. While it's worldview is rather different to Morrisons, there is a similar theme:

The Dark Side is the Church- the all-seeing Magisterium who control the flow of science and make everything nice and orderly. (N.B. The outer Church)

The Church is doing experiments which part people from their 'souls' (which in Pullman's world take physical form) in order to save them from sin. This process of 'intercision' has surgical overtones, and leaves the patient zombie-like and controllable. It recalls strongly the atrocities of harmony house.

The idea of somehow physically removing somebody's soulstuff.


Does anybody remember Jim Henson's "The Dark Crystal?" (i think it has his). Set on an alien world, there were two ancient diametrically opposed races: one evil and one good (perhaps overly simplisitic: as Six refers to the ectoplasm in vol.3). Both were dying as they got older and time went on. Each was connected to one on the other side so when a good guy died, his corresponding bad guy died.

Anyway, the point was, at the end, this big dark crystal was made whole again after being shattered, and the two sides fused in to shining entities- combinations of the good and evil.

At the time (I was about 10) it made no sense- whouldn't it be better annihilate the bad half and let the good half live, but it begins to become clear when I recall the double-headed (baphomet) nature of the conflict in the Invisibles and the annihilation of opposites, or whatever it is that is going on.


More obscurely, I've been reading an amazing mammoth book called 'Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas R Hoffstader. The premise of the book is (very crudely) that conciousness arises from strong self-reference. For example, as concious entities we can reason about our own process of reasoning (meta-reasoning) and about the universe, of which we are a part.

Some systems of reasoning are powerful enough to allow reasoning about their own workings. However, in order to fully reason about reasoning (to be 'complete') one needs an extension of the reasoning system, a meta-reasoning framework, a supercontext. (this is because of Godel's theorem. If you haven't studied university maths for a few years it's a bit tricky...).

Recall Robin writing herself into the story Writing herself into the story writing herself into the story.

Also I am reminded of the invisibles game in a can- the way I read it is that you in some way live some variation of the narrative taht we are presented with in the comics. Which at some point involves Jack recieving the game can. Self-reference. Infinite regress.

Try connecting a video camera at your TV screen and pointing it at the centre of the screen so it shows what it sees.

Now try zooming and twisting the image.

Emergent behaviour.

I know the Matrix was directly influenced by the invisibles, but recall in 'reloaded' the diving through monitor screens in his interview with the architect.

It should be hardly surprising that all these things are evoked, since the Invisibles is about everything.

Nonetheless, I was surprised.
 
 
Ben Danes
11:35 / 02.01.04
If you look hard enough, you can see the Invisibles everywhere. It's pretty cool.

Very interestring stuff you talk about in that book you are reading. Cool theories. I see it like this: we're all drawn on the same paper (what Morrison comic is that from? Forgotten it for the moment). Some folks are conscious enough that they can pretty much write their own story: eg. people who say they always felt they'd be successful. Also, when taken to the extreme, cases of writers saying the characters write themselves-the person is so self-concsious/aware, they're making 'God' write the story the way they want. Makes sense to me. Not sure if or where I've reguritated that from, though I've added the succesful and write themselves to it.

Also had my first 'real' Invisibles experience last week when I was really stoned off my face. Experienced the whole series, from start to finish, virtually panel by panel. Crystal clear in my mind. Beautfiul art from Weston, Jiminez, Quitely, Bolland, Phillips etc, plus all the mad ideas. Can't quite describe it, as it was going real fast. Like the end bit on 'A Day In The Life' on Sgt Peppers' is the best way I can explain it, in the way it built up.

Has nothing to do with the topic, but I thought I'd throw it in. Seems relevant somehow.
 
 
akira
19:08 / 02.01.04
I've just ordered the whole series off amazon. Big Crimbo prezzy for me style. Fuck. I'll check back in when I've read it all.
 
 
Bronzehedgehog
22:06 / 02.01.04
Brett E - you reminded me of something when you said "some people are concious enough to write their own story."

Lucid dreaming- the ability to realise that you're dreaming and to influence the course of the narrative. I can do it sometimes just before waking- change the path of the characters in my dream narrative (which usually involves escaping from shadowy soldier figuers with guns).

Tom o' bedlam said something about there being no objective difference between your dreams and reality, or something...

That's what it would be like in the matrix: to become fully aware that what you're seeing isn't real and thus be able to manipulate it.
 
 
quinine92001
01:46 / 03.01.04
Don't forget the PS2 campaign from several years ago where the player inhales the Playstation 9 technology and plays the videogame in real world time. Invsbles in a can! I've got all of the cheats to beat my brain.
 
 
Ben Danes
09:09 / 03.01.04
Bronzey:

Lucid dreaming. I had a mate going on about this to me for ages, but I never got around to doing it. Interesting that you mention you can do it just before you wake, because sometimes if I can remember a dream, its from before I wake up, and I understand it's a dream while I'm still dreaming. I suppose that's a low level type of lucid dreaming, in that I've realised it's a dream, but I'm not consciously affecting it yet. It's all cycles, isn't it?

Got any good links on it, or should I stop being a lazy prick and look for it myself?
 
 
Bronzehedgehog
17:35 / 03.01.04
Check out the new scientist site- I remember reading an article on it in there a while back.

This story about a guy being chased by a lion, realised he was dreaming, and the lion became a scantily clad woman. You can fill in the rest.
 
 
■
18:00 / 03.01.04
To bring the thread back to comics, there are few better texts on lucid dreaming than Roaring Rick Veitch's RareBit Fiends. I followed his instructions, had a full on lucid dream and got so freaked I've never been able to replicate it.
 
 
penitentvandal
21:54 / 03.01.04
Interesting that you mention Godel, Escher, Bach - I've been reading that lately as a result of an odd experience with a maths spirit which I, funnily enough, defeated by creating a self-referential fiction-loop in my reality (as KM would say, I've waited my whole life to be able to say something like that...). It is pretty mind-blowing, not least the fact that I often find myself having to spend an hour trying to understand two pages of the thing sometimes. You're right about it being hard to understand if you haven't done high-level maths...

And the reason there are similarities between the Invisibles and the Matrix is because the Matrix was ripped off from the Invisibles, only they wussed out and opted for boring Coldplay reality instead of sexy King Mob hyper-reality. Or did they? Was the whole thing just a sting on behalf of the machines and the smarter humans and self-aware programs, represented by the Merovingian, to get rid of the depressing 'keep-it-real' crowd? Were Agent Smith and Morpheus really on the same boring side all along?

I'd like to think so, but actually, I reckon it was just bollocks.
 
 
sleepyvalley
03:16 / 04.01.04
The Invisibles- It's everywhere!

Just noticed that king mob seems to be kickin off in edinburgh, judging by a couple of pics on this fotolog:
1
2

Im not sure but I think the second one is sharing wallspace with some boxfresh urban marketing.
 
 
■
06:43 / 04.01.04
The first one is from the rear steps to Waverley and has been there a good three or four years. Nice to see, but not exactly kicking off. I wouldn't be surprised if Grant did it himself.
 
 
■
06:45 / 04.01.04
...and the second one is a continuation of the first.
 
 
Unicornius
18:44 / 04.01.04
One can also find reference to the invisible in WWE. Here is the entry song for HHH:

"It's time to play the game Time to play the game! Hahahahaha Hahaha

It's all about the game, and how you play it All about control, and if you can take it All about your debt, and if you can pay it It's all about pain, and who's gonna make it...

I am the game, you don't wanna play me I am control, no way you can change me I am have heavy debts, no way you can pay me I am the pain, and I know you can't take me

Look over your shoulder, ready to run Like a good little bitch, from a smoking gun I am the game, and I make the rules So move on out, and you can die like a fool Try and figure out what the news is gonna be Come on over sucker, why don't you ask me? Don't you forget there's a place you can pay 'Cuz I am the game and I want to play ."

Ok I know its far fetched but...
 
 
sleepyvalley
19:07 / 04.01.04
The first one is from the rear steps to Waverley and has been there a good three or four years

Fair enough! I thought it might be. Have'nt been down there for a while.
 
 
Bronzehedgehog
00:52 / 05.01.04
maths spirit? What;s a maths spirit when it's at home?

I don't think the matrix is ripping off the invisibles, although I don't doubt it was inspired by it, -stylistically perghaps- in the same way that the invisibles was inspired by Philip K Dick and a hundred other authors.

If you look at the comic strips on the website and watch the animatrix, the matrix universe is actually quite solid and based on strong concepts, really very different from the more subjective world of The Invisibles. The second two films just feel like the brothers ran away with themselves a bit: tried to do too many things (which was where the last bond film fell down).

What they lost, was the 'out-on-the-edge autonomous cell' feeling that we got from teh first film and in the Invisibles.

I hear that the origional storyline of the matrix existed fully in comic form an no doubt it;s been horribly warped for the mainstream market.
 
 
■
19:02 / 07.01.04
Oooh, there's a coincidence! That King Mob Lives graffitti by Waverley has been wiped away in the past couple of days. Odd, huh?
 
 
Twig the Wonder Kid
23:48 / 23.01.04
Re: Godel Escher and Bach. It's not so much a case of GEB resembling the Invisibles as the Invisibles resembling GEB.

The book originally came out in 1979, when it had a limited (mostly academic) following. It has only recently been undergoing something of a revival following publication of a 20th anniversary edition. Grant has sited it as a major influence on his philosophy before now, crediting many of the ideas in Doom Patrol to it in particular.

It is a fantastic book. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to anyone I thought would be able to take it. It's not for the weak headed. When I first read it I felt my reality wobble slightly, and it has left my world view permanently altered. I doubt there are many books you can say that about.
 
 
---
14:59 / 27.01.04
Bronzehedgehog i like that stuff about the Meta-reasoning framework, it sounds good and Brett E that stoned experience sounds amazing, i've just got here and feel like i've just arrived at home, this place is cool.

I only have two Invisibles comics and didn't know that the 3rd series went in reverse order so the first comic i read was the last one. Anyway i got the second to last issue today and the stuff in it is amazing. I first got interested in Grant's stuff after reading an interview in a Disinfo book and have been interested ever since, i'm glad i'm finally getting the comics and having a better understanding of the whole thing.

Only gutted that fate chose to let me in on all of this so late.

Ah what the hell, anyone wanna elaborate on meta-reasoning?
 
 
■
22:49 / 27.01.04
Can I do a quick plug for Anarchy for the Masses? While some of the conjectures are a bit iffy, most of it is sound. Main reason I saw the light (not green yet, but getting there). Also VERY important is to slip into a local bookshop and read the re-drawn bits of 3:2. They work so much better.
 
 
Bronzehedgehog
15:33 / 09.03.04
blah blah blah

Systems of reasoning can be rigorously defined. They consist of two components:

A set of AXIOMS - (Sometimes referred to as assumptions.)
-----------------
These are the things we start off KNOWING to be true. For example, in Euclidean Geometry (the familiar geometry of lines and points on flat surfaces) one of the axioms is that if you have two distinct points, you can find a line which passes through both of them. Another is that two parallel lines will never meet.

A set of RULES of inference
---------------------------
These are slightly harder to rigorously describe, but they are the logical steps that allow you to derive true statements from other true statements. (this is very fuzzy wording).


Clearly, you can see that if you add more axioms or more rules of inference then as long as these can't be deduced from the axioms you already have (ie. they really are NEW), then you can get a more powerful system of reasoning.

More powerful in this sense means that you can derive more facts, or in some cases, express more things.

In general to FULLY reason about a system of reasoning, you need a more powerful system. A meta- system.


Or something...
 
 
Dexter Graves
23:52 / 05.04.04
It's srange how even the most absurd conspiracies of 'The Invisbles' seem to be grounded in actual conspiracy literature.

The remote viewing methods employed to view the installation in New Mexico in book 4 are quite real and were originally developed by the Soviets and later adopted by American Intelligence agencies.

There are stories of an American other project called 'The Montauk Project' which allegedly attempted to use astral projection in order to acheive time travel.

The "Castle of Silling" segment of the first Invisbles graphic novel (adapted from a Marquis De Sade story) was the subject of a 1975 Italian film called Salo, which relocated the events to an obscure mansion in Italy towards the end of WWII. The director of the movie was murdered shortly after the completion of the film and rumors have since been abound that his demise may have resulted from his film being too realistic in its depiction of the depraved tastes of wealthy fascists.

There are a ton of other references, political, pop cultural, and spiritual. His magickal ideas mirror what most Pagan and Earth based religions teach. There's definetely a lot going on here.

Then again, how can anyone NOT want to rebel in today's political climate?
 
 
spake
02:50 / 06.04.04
I just finished re-reading the whole Dune series of books by Frank Herbert. Hadn't noticed it until now, but i was drawn to the parallels between GM's theories of time (i.e. humans perceived as worms when viewed from a perspective outside of time) and FB's main characters becoming like worms in how they perceived time behind and ahead of them.

Hell, the main character in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th books, Leto, evolves into a giant worm capable of perceiving time in both directions, yet also being able to act independently to it. Evolution and time go hand in hand accordingly.

very cool.
 
 
Dexter Graves
21:26 / 08.04.04
I thought Leto died at the end of Dune Messiah. I never read the fifth or sixth book. For me, Dune ended with the conclusion of the third book. The first three books in the series read like a trilogy and do a wonderful job of showing the passage of power from Leto I, to Paul, to Leto II. After that, it just felt like Herbert was hammering the whole 'messiah as destroyer' theme into the ground. It was interesting to hear someone compare Morrison's Invisibles Time travel ideas with the ideas about time expressed by Herbert in the Dune series. Watching, the Children of Dune mini-series has definetely made me want to re-read these books.
 
 
the cat's iao
06:37 / 09.04.04
i was drawn to the parallels between GM's theories of time (i.e. humans perceived as worms when viewed from a perspective outside of time) and FB's main characters becoming like worms

an influence of 20th century physics--relativity: thinking of time as a dimension creates pictures of "spacetime worms" as objects in motion are envisioned as the totality of that motion.
 
 
Lord Morgue
11:08 / 12.04.04
I haven't read Godel Escher and Bach, but the whole "conciousness as metareasoning" thing sounds a lot like Fritjof Capra's work. He slowly came to the idea, through "Tao of Physics", "The Turning Point", "Uncommon Wisdom" and "The Web of Life", that Mind is essentially a self-governing process. Cybernetic math, like a thermostat, or the governor on a steam engine (you know, the two little balls that spin around and keep the steam flow steady by opening or shutting a valve according to how far apart they move from their own centrifugal force.)
He also makes an interesting case for the origins of life lying not in random configurations of amino acids that somehow learnt how to reproduce, but in self-sustaining chemical reactions that eventually aquired more static physical forms. Kind of like the verb came before the noun. I bet Buckminster Fuller would have liked that.
Hey, anyone read the Illuminatus! books? Lots of proto-Invisibles stuff there.
 
 
EvskiG
01:30 / 25.09.06
Dress like an archon.
 
 
Mark Parsons
05:17 / 25.09.06
I'm pretty sure I picked up my (unread) used copy of G,E,B b/c a read an interview (or letters page from INVIS) with GM that name checked it. Also RAW plugs the book.
 
 
Our Lady Has Left the Building
17:10 / 25.09.06
Looks more like standard fashion appropriation of fetish-wear to me, with a couple looking like the Harlequinade.

I'm betting that anyone that would want to wear one of these things in a public space would only manage a dozen steps before they were bludgeoned to death by people bleeding from their eyes.
 
 
Tuna Ghost: Pratt knot hero
22:00 / 25.09.06
I'm pretty sure I picked up my (unread) used copy of G,E,B b/c a read an interview (or letters page from INVIS) with GM that name checked it. Also RAW plugs the book.

Fuckin' great book. One of the few books that you can read and be utterly fascinated by the subject material, but when someone asks you "so what's it about?" you can't even answer. I bought (and stole) several copies before I read the intro and learned what Hofstadder was trying to say with G, E, B.
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
21:34 / 08.01.07
Mmm, just a tangential question...
Remember the second version of Gideon Stargrave ( the Sgt. Pepper-esque one, as seen in the cover of v1 issue 18)? Does the type of jacket he's wearing have a name? I'm looking for one just like that!
 
 
Jack Fear
21:52 / 08.01.07
What, with the tab collar? That's a Nehru jacket.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:09 / 08.01.07
I don't have it in front of me, but isn't it a Chelsea pensioner's jacket?
 
 
Cowboy Scientist
22:35 / 08.01.07
I ask beacuse I have seen some pictures of jackets exactly like Gideon's around the web.
 
 
lord nuneaton savage
13:14 / 09.01.07
It's generally known as a Guardsman's Jacket.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:01 / 09.01.07
Well, yes, but wasn't that one specifically the jacket of the Chelsea Pensioners? On account of Gerry being perhaps a bit keener on Menswe@r than was strictly necessary?
 
  

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