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Transgenderism and Fascist Imagery

 
 
The Tower Always Falls
22:15 / 22.12.03
I'm honestly not sure exactly how to go about asking the question, being a silly mostly straight white boy, so forgive me if I stumble a bit in the execution. This could also fit into the Fashion board, but I set it here for the obvious reasons.

Basically, I'm curious if anyone could explain the (in my eyes) curious fetish of certain subsections of the transgendered community for Fascist or Nazi culture. I've been thinking about this for a while and it kind of coalesced when, here in Chicago, the (in)famous Death In June was protested out of a show here at a local pub. Now arguments about free-speech and the like aside, I was also struck by a post on a a friend of my brother's livejorunal who mentioned the wide varety of trans people at a later Death in June show. Which THEN brought to mind a friend of mine who dated this boy-dyke (I'm using the term correctly here, aren't I? Apologies if I'm not...) who was rather enamoured by the Nazi aesthetic. To the point where we were at a gallery opening and he casually commented to me that he liked the picture featuring the Star of David with a sword through it if the artist wasn't Jewish, but if he was then he didn't like it. (Made all the more awkward given that the artist was actually RIGHT BEHIND us when he said that...)

There's been a couple threads on transgenderism here before, but I haven't found any dealing with this particular aesthetic. And it appears to be more than a few isolated cases, as I've seen various issues of subculture porn with pre and post-op FTM's in Nazi drag.

So I leave this question before the Barbelith Headshop to parse this issue and maybe enlighten me. Again, not trying to be obtuse or offensive. Just legitmately curious.
 
 
Ganesh
23:01 / 22.12.03
Firstoff, I'm intrigued that you've drawn a connection between the Nazi/SS aesthetic and transgenderism. The male-male SM/leather scene is absolutely replete with such clothing and imagery and I believe it's not unknown amongst hetero 'pervs' either. From what you say, however, transpeople are overrepresented here?

So... immediate impression is that, rather than being specifically connected with transgenderism per se (and I assume you're talking more of the FTM variety) it might be more tied in with one particular (rather 'artificial'?) construct of masculinity which tends to invest in rather fetishistic authoritarian trappings. Since transmen usually have to consciously construct their own masculinity/machismo, they'd perhaps be more drawn to Nazi symbols, clothing, boots, etc. as a particularly overt way of doing so. Also, Nazi propaganda tended to feature young, clean-cut men who were often rather androgynous, facially, so it'd perhaps be a seductive aesthetic for transmen.

One might base another theory around the concept of fetishism itself. There's quite a degree of blurring around the concepts of transsexual, transvestite and transgender (the latter often used as an umbrella term), with transvestism embodying strongly fetishistic elements (classically, men fetishising female clothing). One might speculate, therefore, that those going under a 'transgender' banner might include a higher-than-average number of individuals with a tendency to fetishise - and the Nazi aesthetic is extremely 'sticky' in terms of fetish 'hooks'...

Will think about this and maybe post more later.
 
 
The Tower Always Falls
00:44 / 23.12.03
Firstoff, I'm intrigued that you've drawn a connection between the Nazi/SS aesthetic and transgenderism. The male-male SM/leather scene is absolutely replete with such clothing and imagery and I believe it's not unknown amongst hetero 'pervs' either.

ack. Okay, this is true. Just go to any garden variety bondage night and you've got a good chance of seeing Nazi uniforms aplenty. Hitler in a French Maid outfit won the costume contest at a local goth club for Halloween... So yes, I get you there completely.

The part of the issue that leaves me wondering is the (observed) tendency for FTM's to not only fetishize the outward trappings of of fascist imagery, but also the theories. In my experience, you're very unlikely to see some heavy petting leather-daddies or hetero bondage babies at a Fascist band show, whereas I know of at least a few FTM's who eagerly anticapate these sort of shows and tend to spout out some rather disturbing Anti-Semetic rhetoric.

Again, apologies if I'm not phrasing this quite on consisely as i should be. The idea isn't quite fully formed in my head either...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
05:39 / 23.12.03
Can't really comment too much as what little I know of the transcommunity (which can probably be written on a couple of sheets of A4) doesn't include fascist leanings, but are you sure these aren't punks (that happen to be trannies) doing a Keith Moon dressing up in a Nazi uniform rather than trannies (that happen to be punks)? It does sound more like that 70s bid for outrage thing to me.
 
 
Ganesh
11:07 / 23.12.03
Okay. I've never myself been witness to transgender people of any sort espousing fascist/Nazi theories, and it's difficult to comment. Are you sure these aren't localised or idiosyncratic instances as opposed to evidence of a trend or subculture?
 
 
diz
13:23 / 23.12.03
I was also struck by a post on a a friend of my brother's livejorunal who mentioned the wide varety of trans people at a later Death in June show.

heh. your brother's friend is a mod on this site. or maybe was. i can never keep track of her.

more to say on this later.
 
 
The Tower Always Falls
00:40 / 24.12.03
Are you sure these aren't localised or idiosyncratic instances as opposed to evidence of a trend or subculture?

In all honesty, no I'm not sure. For the Nazi boy-dyke that my friend dated, I thought she was simply an odd example in an otherwise large and rather diverse subculture. That is until I casually met a few others. And even then, I thought it was simply a matter of some odd clique of local FTM's that decided to embrace this... The first inkling of it maybe being a larger phenomenon was the livejournal posting above- which spawned the thought that perhaps this isn't a localized instance.

But I freely admit I could be way off base here, and would actually breathe a small sigh of relief if I was.

heh. your brother's friend is a mod on this site.

Yeah, my brother recently just told me who she was on Barbelith. (I actually didn't even make the connection while posting this topic, sadly... A bit slow on the uptake I sometimes am...) You know, after Friendster, I'm so not surprised at the possibility of being connected to anyone anymore...
 
 
Disco is My Class War
09:02 / 24.12.03
Okay, first -- let's clarify your collapsing of 'trans' and 'boy-dyke'. Which is fine, really, I'm sure there are lots of trans boy-dykes, but please don't use the example of a boy-dyke you may have known to say that lots of trans people are proto-fascist.

I 'am' a transboy/ftm and I don't really go for the theories or the aesthetic. Sure, my head is shaved at the moment. Sure, I have a boot fetish. But that ain't Nazi, baby, it's just pervy.

I think you'll find that there are far more non-trans neo-nazis than trans ones.

And really, if you didn't want your theory to be 'true', why the fuck are you posting it on Barbelith? Why are you so interested? Why does it worry you so? Is it particularly worse to be trans and a fascist than to be non-trans and a fascist?
 
 
The Knights Templar Boogie Machine
13:33 / 24.12.03
R.U.Sirius the old mondo 2000 editor guy once remarked that flirting with neo nazi imagery was about flirting with dark power systems and making that power benevolent, a kind of lead into gold, harnessing the power of dark imagery and subverting it...Among those who have previously flirted with this is ol' genesis p.orridge back in his coum days......
 
 
The Tower Always Falls
02:17 / 25.12.03
I'm sure there are lots of trans boy-dykes, but please don't use the example of a boy-dyke you may have known to say that lots of trans people are proto-fascist.


Ack. I didn't think I was and I'm sorry if I inadverdantly implied that. I certainly DON'T think that lots of trans people are fascist, and that's hardly the impression I want to give.

And really, if you didn't want your theory to be 'true', why the fuck are you posting it on Barbelith? Why are you so interested? Why does it worry you so? Is it particularly worse to be trans and a fascist than to be non-trans and a fascist?

Double ack. um, I really don't want it to be true. I was curious if this odd little test sample here was indicitive of a larger trend based upon my (increasingly looking like wrong) observations of other instances. It was an honest query that I brought to the attention of Barbelith because there happens to be a large section of intelligent "subcultural" denizeins who would have a much better chance of knowing something about this as opposed to, say, co-workers or family. It isn't any worse or better to be a trans or non-trans fascist, in my opinion, as Anti-Semitism is in the "bad" camp no matter who's doing the slurring. I'm honestly not that interested, as it was just the flitter of a thought that coalesced recently and I was mostly throwing it out here to see if there was any weight to it. Although I'm starting to feel like I tossed a little girl into the river to see if she floats like the daisys...

Sincere apologies if I offended you Disco, as that was the last thing I intended. It's looking like I was mostly jumping at shadows, as no one here seems to have any inkling as to what I'm talking about. So no biggie. I'm wrong.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
04:02 / 28.12.03
I'm not offended, Tower, just a little surprised that anyone could seriously think there was a connection based on seeing some people at a show. Your comments remind me of the bad old days of the Sex Wars, when lesbian feminists everywhere would accuse leatherdykes, and/or dykes with short bleached hair and a yen for army pants, of fascism or racism. Doubtless, lesbians are as prone to clone behaviour as gay men, but racism or fascism is a pretty different thing.

Maybe fascism is a trend in your local community generally?

By the way, the reason I tried to clarify 'trans' and 'boydyke' is that the two are not really the same thing, are they? And I'm sure if you called lots of ftm's 'boydykes' they'd have you for breakfast. And probably lunch.
 
 
griffle
09:26 / 02.01.04
wtf is a 'boydike'?
 
 
Rage
06:35 / 08.01.04
I'm not a mod here anymore. Hahaha.

Just so nobody gets confused, that was a picture taken at Burning Man, not Death in June. As far as I know, the guy wearing the outfit is straight.

Anyway, it intrigued me that I saw a nice number of transgender people at the Death in June show in Denver, but I can't say that any of them were dressed in fascist drag. I just thought it was cool that they were into neofolk. This is coming straight from the girl who was there. In fact, I'd be curious to see some images of transgendered people in fascist drag, cause I've yet to come across any. That french maid shit is hilarious!

By the way, a lot more happened in Chicago than a simple protest. One kid was hospitalized, if you really wanna know...

"R.U.Sirius the old mondo 2000 editor guy once remarked that flirting with neo nazi imagery was about flirting with dark power systems and making that power benevolent, a kind of lead into gold, harnessing the power of dark imagery and subverting it."

Would like to touch a bit more on this, but I'm not sure if a thread has already been done on the subject. Links, anyone?
 
  
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