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Gay Partner Penis Envy

 
  

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Turk
15:24 / 20.12.03
Hey folks, an infrequent poster here, an occasional interloping chucklehead if truth be told.

Now, a couple of nights ago I was discussing something or other with your bitchiekittie and for reasons currently lost to me it led to a rather strange question, and she told me I simply must post it here, so...

In a gay male partnership there are obviously going to be two penises, generally one has to be the larger dong, is that ever a source of disharmony, ill will, disappointment or even personal insecurity in such a relationship?

It's going to be a big no, isn't it?
 
 
--
15:35 / 20.12.03
Large penises freak me out. Same for large breasts.
 
 
Miss Kiss
17:09 / 20.12.03
People get so weird about penises! I mean, I like them and all, but they are so overrated! But I'm a girl, and my opinion doesn't really have anything to do with this.
 
 
Ganesh
21:27 / 20.12.03
Depends on the partners, and what they actually like to do with the aforementioned penises - if being anally penetrated is your thang, say, then the arse/penis fit is likely to be the most sexually relevant point.

If you're talking penis size in a wider sense - in a sort of 'men deferring to men with bigger dongs' way - then that's probably a factor too. I don't think I'd say it was necessarily one of the major ones, though; respective ages, incomes, fetishes, etc. are probably more integral to any given male-male relationship dynamic.

Interesting question, though.
 
 
bitchiekittie
12:26 / 21.12.03
and I think the bigger question here is, if you're older and just beginning to explore (internally and/or with others) same-sex relationships, what do you do?

speaking strictly from my own viewpoint and in regards to somewhat experienced folks...we start exploring our sexual/relationship type feelings at a young age and gain confidence and experience as we get older. by the time we're in our 20s, most of us have a fair grasp of what we want and like, as well as our boundaries, expectations, abilities, and luck with such things. many of us know how to behave in intimate situations, how to read other's actions and react accordingly.

so what happens when you find you're at that age, but just starting to question these things? where do you even start?

questions like the above, I'd think, would be only one among many.
 
 
Turk
13:27 / 21.12.03
Making me wonder why the question popped into my head at all there bitchiekittie.
 
 
--
16:43 / 21.12.03
I'm 23 and clueless about sex.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:35 / 21.12.03
I think Bitchiekittie and Ganesh have both raised interesting questions here. As such, I feel this should stay in the Head Shop. However, this does mean that posts to this thread should contain something of interest to the reader of the thread, some evidence of having read the thread and an interest in engaging with the thread. As of now, if you don't manage that, I'm afraid your post may be moved for deletion, at which point the matter will be resolved by vote. The alternative might be to move this thread to the Conversation and start another one here on, say, how sexual orientation affects when and how sexual self-image develops. Anyone with an opinion on this, I suggest that to avoid clogging the thread you PM me or another Head Shop moderator.

For example, Bitchiekittie says:

and I think the bigger question here is, if you're older and just beginning to explore (internally and/or with others) same-sex relationships, what do you do?

Speaking strictly from my own viewpoint and in regards to somewhat experienced folks...we start exploring our sexual/relationship type feelings at a young age and gain confidence and experience as we get older. by the time we're in our 20s, most of us have a fair grasp of what we want and like, as well as our boundaries, expectations, abilities, and luck with such things. many of us know how to behave in intimate situations, how to read other's actions and react accordingly.

so what happens when you find you're at that age, but just starting to question these things? where do you even start?


Which is indeed an interesting question - to be gay, it seems, is not the default setting of the culture. Therefore if you *are* gay, you do not get the same wide range of cultural products, easily available and in fact pretty much impossible to avoid, telling you how your sexual and romantic response systems shoudl function. As a result of which, you don't necessarily have the same range of sources telling you how to behave. But is that necessarily a bad thing? I'd suggest that actually most of our mediated ideas of heterosexual relationships or heterosexual sex have limited bearing on our actual relationships (there's a thread on porn which touches on the idea of pornography as signification rather than representation, will look for it later).

The parallel question is probably about when one "naturally" develops a sense of oneself as a sexually interacting being. Sypha Nadon is 23 and clueless about sex, and it does not in this case necessarily matter whether the sex in question is gay or straight - a 23-year-old can find representations and descriptions of both, although one set of representations and descriptions is hardwired into the culture and the other is not. It raises the question of whether there is a right time for sexual development - kairosexuality, if you like. If there is, what are the consequences for somebody of any sexuality who misses it? And how would one go about missing it? Is it an internal or external event?
 
 
--
02:52 / 22.12.03
I'd say I go about missing it by staying in my room all day spending time in front of the computer.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
08:21 / 22.12.03
Nah, not good enough. Sititng in front of a computer should be one of the best possible ways to learn about sex, logically, unless the mass of data about sex available on the Internet is somehow, as hinted at above, not actually about sex. Care to broaden the field of inquiry, Sypha? what were you doing when everyone else was getting a clue about sex? Was there a point at which others got a clue about sex, and did it vary with their sexualities? If what you are actually saying is "I am 23 and have never *had* sex", or "I am 23 and am hopeless at sex", that is rather different from not *knowing* about sex. Think about how your cluelessness works in the context of your environment and society...
 
 
--
14:02 / 22.12.03
Okay...

Obviously I know what sex is and how it's done, as it seems a good deal of literature, music, and movies that I enjoy seem to include it. However, I've never actually had sex, so I'm not sure if I'd know what the hell to do if I found myself in a situation that required it.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:45 / 22.12.03
...and we relate that to the topic how?
 
 
Linus Dunce
00:39 / 23.12.03
"I haven't had sex but if I were male (as I perhaps am) and I took a male lover, is it likely I'd feel jealous of his cock?"
 
 
--
02:38 / 23.12.03
Forgive me Haus, I usually just post whatever pops into my head.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
11:15 / 23.12.03
It's an observable phenomenon that threads generally remain somewhere around the level where they started. This started as a Conversation thread in all but location, and it looks like to Conversation it should go. I would suggest somebody pulling out the interesting bits and starting a Head Shop thread - will do it myself if I have a moment.
 
 
Turk
13:46 / 23.12.03
Fair enough it's fluff, but I felt my open question might just qualify as 'Queer Theory' since that's exactly what it is, though admittedly perhaps sans the customery dose of hoity-toity verbose twaddle barbelith threads often seem to strive for, no offense.
Anyway, thank you Haus for reminding me exactly why I can't really stomach this place. To put it bluntly all this ridiculous, one assumes power-hungry, angst about relocating posts, deleting posts, moderating posts, it does my head in.
Bye forks.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
14:33 / 23.12.03
I'm sorry that Barbelith is not run according to your taste, Turk. I would like to assure you that the discussions about moving threads, and the fact that such things are then voted on rather than done by individual fiat, are a sign of involvement with and across the board rather than a "power-hungry" tendency. I would like to do that, but I very much doubt that there would be very much point, since you have clearly made your mind up that, since Turk is not worshipped as a god in these parts, we are clearly heathens not worthy of your time. Ta-ra.

"Queer Theory" is a discipline of philosophy. It does not include every possible question to be asked about those whacky homosexuals. Obviously, not knowing this is going to cause problems. "Fluff threads" go in the Conversation, even if they involve two men kissing. That's what the Conversation is for (among other things). You may want to read the FAQ. If not carefully, then at least slowly.

Bitchiekittie and others raised interesting (for the Head Shop) questions. The starting question was not (in terms of the Head Shop) interesting. It, and much of the conversation that followed it, was clearly always going to be more comfortable in the Conversation, which would mean more people would be able to read it and also that people would not need to worry about their responses being threadrotty, vague, or unnecessary, these being fine in the Conversation but not fine in the Head Shop.

Moving a thread to the Conversation is not a bad thing. It is a sign that it does not appear that it is going to require or profit from the thematic or methodological strictures of one of the Revolution forums, and would proft from wider-ranging and potentially unrelated responses. Moving it to the "oh, it's just another straight boy obsessed with cocks" forum might be more appropriate, but alas we do not currently have one.

Merry Christmas!
 
 
--
14:48 / 23.12.03
I vote we create a "straight boys obsessed with cocks" forum. It would be very amusing.
 
 
Linus Dunce
14:57 / 23.12.03
No need -- it's hardwired into the straight server software.
 
 
Ganesh
00:23 / 24.12.03
I think it's a reasonable question to ask; it's the 'penises are great, aren't they?' one-liner responses which render this thread fluffular. And I have no problem with straight boys obsessed with cocks; it's what one's cock is for.

Trying to expand on my initial reply, I'd say there probably is a sort of 'constant awareness' within a male-male relationship of who's got the bigger cock - but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's an inevitable source of disharmony, ill-will of insecurity. It's more akin to being aware of who's younger, or who's got the better body or the larger salary. Or the most Christmas cards. All of these are considered desirable attributes on the male gay scene (okay, not necessarily the cards) - probably more so than among hets - and cock size ranks up there. All are potential bone(r)s of contention but, in my experience, gay men are less competitive than straights when it comes to their own cocks: many are more concerned with the dimensions of the cock they're sucking/being fucked by.

So... not so much a big no as a relatively undersized yes.

With regard to Bitchiekittie's broadening of the question, further expanded by Haus, I think there's increasingly an almost-equivalent "range of cultural products" available upon which gay men model their emerging sexual expression - and, just as with models of straight sexuality, it's not necessarily directly helpful in one's own clue-getting. I was 24 before I'd actually slept with a man and, through careful scrutiny of the gay press, I was fuzzily aware that designer underwear was involved, as well as nice duvet covers, lubricant and doing one's best to "open up like a flower". Now, post 'Queer As Folk', I know that rimming, threesomes and faaabulous loft apartments are just as important.

It takes a while to get a clue about sex. I spent most of my teens wondering why I was clueless about sex with women (and concluding, in classic style, that I Just Hadn't Met The Right One) and a good part of my twenties becoming gradually less clueless about the many-splendoured thing that is sex with men. I'm still, at the ripe old over-the-hill-in-gay-years age of 33, revising and refining what I want and like from sex. I don't think there is a 'natural age'; I think it's an ongoing process.

Oh, and Turk: please don't throw a hissy fit. It's worth sticking around.
 
 
Ganesh
07:18 / 24.12.03
Hm. I seem to have prompted a move to Conversation. Oh well...
 
 
Sax
09:46 / 24.12.03
Some people just can't keep their cocks in their fora. Oh dear.
 
 
cusm
14:27 / 28.12.03
Well, thanks to Ganesh for directing the topic away from meta thread policing and back to talking about cocks where it belongs. Focus people! There's cock talk to be had! Mean old Haus.

Ahem. Anyway...

Its an interesting point. There is a sort of mythos among men, barely ever recognized post puberty save when expolited by spammers to sell bunk herbal enhancement pills, that having a bigger cock makes you more the man. Its like culturally, there's this hidden and almost mythical pressure that one's security can be linked to the size of their cock. If for no other reason than that a bigger cock can surely please a woman better than a small one (which is not entirely untrue, but is so highly subjective a thing as to be difficult to accurately, um, measure.) So naturally, one looking at it from this perspective (is it really more a het perspective than a gay one?) might wonder about penis envy among gay men.

Being a late blooming bisexual myself, I don't know shite about gay culture aside from TV productions and my own friends and lovers, and that's fine enough by me. I've also not experienced the situation of facing down a raging cock that dwarfs my own, so I'm not quite sure how I'd feel about that (aroused, probably ). Noone I've been with has been particularly intimidated by mine either, even being somewhat on the larger size in comparason, so its really never, er, come up.

So in some attempt to salvage content, what of the size pressure I mentioned earlier that seems present in het culture? Is this existent at all among gay culture, or is it a strictly unversal adolescent thing?
 
 
Cat Chant
09:53 / 29.12.03
In slash, the problem is usually circumvented by giving one partner a longer, narrower cock and the other a shorter, fatter cock.
 
 
Ex
10:08 / 29.12.03
what of the size pressure I mentioned earlier that seems present in het culture? Is this existent at all among gay culture, or is it a strictly unversal adolescent thing?

I think part of the het concern is preserved by having an equal and opposite taboo around straight men seeing other men's cocks (even when they're flaccid, let alone when they're long and narrow and/or short and fat).
So a straight man concerned about the size of his cock can rely on medical statistics or ask a female sexual partner. And he's been informed by magazines that she will lie to flatter him. So the potential monstrous size of other men's cocks looms large in his mind.
(Covering note: Not all straight men are obsessed with the size of their mandangle.)

I'm being optimistic and hoping that among men who have actually seen the cocks of other men, the ridiculous guessing and quizzing and anxiety might calm down somewhat. Rather than the size competition escalating into more cockfighting.
 
 
Ganesh
00:12 / 29.11.05
Rediscovered this, while searching for cock-talk. Barbelith needs more cock-talk.

As a slight twist on the initial question (and because I know we have at least two trans men on the board), I was actually thinking about the situation with regard to gay male couples in which at least one partner is trans and quite possibly doesn't have a penis as such (as is the case with at least 50% of FtMs).

In this sort of genderqueer relationship, is penis envy an issue at all?
 
 
*
05:19 / 29.11.05
I'm not sure the relationship is necessarily genderqueer, 'nesh, unless you're using that term in a different way than I'm used to. If we are postulating a trans guy who identifies as a pretty gender-normative gay man, and lives that way, and a non-trans guy who identifies and lives as a pretty gender-normative gay man as well, is that a "genderqueer" relationship?

A similar situation arose in a relationship between two FTM acquaintances, which was an open relationship, but which eventually ended because guy A felt hurt by what he perceived as guy B's insistence on seeking out non-trans partners for casual sex, and then passive-aggresively playing the "well, he's got a penis" game. Internalized transphobia was probably the main problem, with penis envy being a component of that.

I'd like to think that I don't get insecure about the size of my dick unless it becomes an issue for my partner/ potential partner. But I would like to divide the question up into a few different parts. One, there's the manxiety issue— am I a "real man" if my dick is only about an inch and a half long? And I think trans guys are pretty much forced to take on this issue and get over it really quickly. Two, there's the issue of satisfying my partner, and frankly prostheses offer many more possibilities for this than a factory-equipped penis ever can— unless his satisfaction is dependent on some contextual issue (such as my (in)ability to ejaculate real semen). Three, there's the issue of whether my partner, or the rest of the community which is important to me and to him, will think less of me for my dick size (or because they don't perceive my dick as a real dick). That's a bit harder to negotiate for me, but still doable. But probably the hardest thing to overcome, and what I assume you probably intended by your question, Ganesh, is the persistent feeling that I'm missing a pleasurable experience that I should be able to have. My partner's pleasure in penetrating me is pretty clear to me, and just as I want him to be able to have all the varieties of pleasure that are available to me, I feel more than a bit wistful when I think about what it would be like to be able to penetrate him and actually feel it. Would that destroy any of my relationships? I should hope not, but then...

(This is a thread which really makes me wish we had a "Our Bodies, Our Barbelith" forum or something. I feel pretty naked pulling my dick out like this in Conversation. I suppose we can consider it an experiment in discovering how sensitive my fellow Barbelithnianers can be.)
 
 
Ganesh
07:13 / 29.11.05
I'm not sure the relationship is necessarily genderqueer, 'nesh, unless you're using that term in a different way than I'm used to.

Apologies. One of my patients used the term recently in this context, I nodded confidently and Googled later. It was all a bit vague, but seemed to encompass the combination of trans and gay male. Ah well. That's what I get for trying to show how down wit da theory kids I am.
 
 
Ganesh
07:25 / 29.11.05
Thanks, Entity. Some of that sounds oddly familiar, particularly the bit about feeling you're missing out on a fun time. I suspect that much of the gay (male) scene is powered by evoking some degree of this feeling in males, whether their or not their dick started life as a clitoris or not: open any freebie gay mag, and it's packed with photos of off-their-heads party boys gurning beneath glitterballs, hot leather action and, in the small ads, a veritable forest of hardons. To an extent, we're probably all prey to that creeping insecurity: if we had bigger pecs, a bigger cock, a better face, better drugs, a bigger salary, more Gucci, a deeper tan, we might be within sniffing range of the glamorous party every proper gayer is at right now.
 
 
Loomis
08:15 / 29.11.05
Presumably one element of the straight obsession with dick size is the sense of competition for women, hence the worry that a competitor with a bigger cock will win the girl. Whereas in a (monogamous) male-male relationship, the two dicks are not competing for anybody, so the partner with the smaller schlong gets to be the judge on whether bigger is better, rather than a third party over whom both men are competing.
 
 
Ganesh
08:23 / 29.11.05
One might argue that it stems from an evolutionary need to compete for mates, Lurid, but I'm not at all sure that's at the root (ho ho) of modern-day hetero cock competition. I get the feeling it's more a combination of fascination (not being privy to many penises, straight men are intrigued by other males') and anxiety around that fascination, lest it lead to being thought gay ('what if he catches me looking?', 'what if I start to get hard?', 'what if he notices?', etc.). I suspect there might also be an element of pack-dog hierarchical organisation involved.

Then there's the whole well-trodden supposition that modern het males 'compare penises' on a symbolic level, with cars, Trump Tower, etc.
 
 
Ganesh
08:23 / 29.11.05
Sorry, Loomis even.
 
 
Loomis
08:31 / 29.11.05
One thing I've never understood about the idea of comparing penises in the changing room or wherever is that there is no direct relation between the size of a soft and hard penis. So how do you know who has the biggest anyway?
 
 
Char Aina
08:38 / 29.11.05
i think most of my size fear came directly from school days.
all that 'banter' that kids do so well really sticks in the mind.
if you dont have wangzilla under your belt that is going to take some dealing with, even without any subsequent brainwashing(of which i think there is stacks).

that said, the atmosphere of competition and comparison is a great excuse to get it out.
y'know.
for science.
super straight science.

with cocks.
 
 
Char Aina
08:40 / 29.11.05
So how do you know who has the biggest anyway?

soggy biscuit in uniformly stripey trousers?
 
  

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