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What Is Cassandra Nova?

 
  

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Aertho
14:21 / 23.12.03
Apocalypse had been considered a spirit for years before the 12... He constantly had to be in regeneration chambers, invented new bodies for himself and underlings, and was specifically described as "burning out his host bodies" in The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix. By then, it was a mere thousand years in the future circa 3000+, and his (female!) body was dying, necessitating the training of Stryfe.

But reasoning stands that if he had a series of hosts for the thousand years between Marvel present and Cable future, then En Sabah Nur must have had host bodies going backward from Marvel present to Apocalypse's ancient encounter with the Celestial baby-thermometer/radio in Tibet. I wasn't surprised when I saw the little human body inside the Apocalypse armor, and I was shocked at how eveyone said Marvel was ignoring continuity by making Apocalypse a parasite.

Being parasitic made sense in a very REAL way. Apocalypse was an incredibly powerful mutant who had survived a strain of the Celestial parasitic transmode virus. He was a shapeshifter and able to hurl energy bolts, as well as do all sorts of mega-level mutant shit... I began to suspect that the origin of En Sabah Nur's original mutation was like that of Kevin MacTaggert, Proteus —another parasitic mutant, made of pure energy.

As a storyline, The Twelve SUCKED. I'd seen mutant powers as a collective gun before, without the lame "family" aspect in Excalibur, and that was a fifty issue long manipulation gambit... Cassandra also contains the powers of the mutants involved with that story as well. Healing factor, magnetic armor generation, telepathy...

If Matthew's right, I look forward to Grant's reinterpretation of the En Sabah Nur ideology. It seems to me that the "survival of the fittest" has been more of a significant mantra than the semi-relevent analogy than Magneto vs Xavier. Perhaps Grant sees En Sabah Nur as being the host for Apocalypse, not the way we've been told to see it... Must Remember Misdirection. Apocalypse and Phoenix are both the same thing, just seen from different angles. Is En Sabah Nur just the Swamp Thing-ish elemental of the Lucifer Principle? Over four thousand years, has his consciousness become less human and more memelike?
 
 
Quireboy
14:30 / 23.12.03
Going back to Apocalypse (and his horsemen) - in NXM151 E.V.A. refers to Apollyon the Destroyer. According to which interpretation of the Book of Revelations you subscribe to, he is either the chief of the demons or God's appointed executioner.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:46 / 23.12.03
Apocalypse and Phoenix are both the same thing, just seen from different angles

Oooh, I like this a lot.

I think the Lucifer Principle is the key to all of this now.
 
 
diz
14:58 / 23.12.03
just for laughs, while you're all talking about Apocalypse, you might want to go here and read the article by former Cable writer Bob Weinberg. it seems his run was (mercifully) cancelled before he got a chance to reveal the shocking, horrible truth that Apocalypse was really... (dum-dum-DUMMM!) the THIRD SUMMERS BROTHER!
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:09 / 23.12.03
Good God! That article is awful. That guy is a terrible writer! He's the anti-Morrison, in terms of approach to X-writing. "Rather than have all of these ideas, I'm just going to come up with stories based on loose threads of previous terrible writers - all of the bad ideas which they abandoned will be MINE!"
 
 
diz
16:08 / 23.12.03
yeah, i think we all dodged a bullet when Weinberg was canned.

his previous column argued that superhero comics are primarily sci-fi, not fantasy, and that the reason superhero comics weren't taken more seriously by literature critics was because they weren't scientifically rigorous enough.

when i pointed out that the sci-fi writers who get taken most seriously (say, Vonnegut, Gibson, PKD, and Octavia Butler) aren't necessarily the most scientifically sound ones, and that fantastic literature, especially if we include magical realism in that, gets all sorts of serious critical acclaim, he got all pissy and said that none of those writers was relevant, and that he was talking more about writers like Tom Clancy and Anne Rice.

so. anyway.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:14 / 23.12.03
Anne Rice is scientifically rigorous in her writing? That's news to me. How can he possibly justify that Phillip K Dick, William Gibson, and Kurt Vonnegut aren't relevant? That's a totally insane argument, especially once you factor in the success of films based on the work of Gibson and Dick. Is he clinging to some misguided version of mass-market paperback populism? Because if he is, his argument has to change dramatically, because his notion of critical acclaim is hopelessly misinformed.
 
 
diz
16:24 / 23.12.03
i have no fucking idea. he bounced around a lot and basically took me to task for being a lit snob, which, to be fair, i kinda was with him, but only because the ignorance he displayed up to that point was so appalling that i felt it was necessary to dickslap him a bit. i moved on, but i think he responded to my last post. blah.

anyway, to gesture in the direction of the topic: i really like this:

Apocalypse and Phoenix are both the same thing, just seen from different angles.

it gets at the core of what's interesting about both characters, namely that they're both more like forces of nature than human-scale characters, and it really ties up a lot of things thematically.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
16:33 / 23.12.03
Dizfactor does a fine job of defending his sane and rational position in the thread that follows Weinberg's ridiculous "everything must be scientifically accurate!" column. Check it out.

There's something very obnoxious-teenage-boy about Weinberg's opinions and taste, isn't there?
 
 
diz
16:46 / 23.12.03
Dizfactor does a fine job of defending his sane and rational position in the thread that follows Weinberg's ridiculous "everything must be scientifically accurate!" column.

why, thank you!

i hadn't read his last post before this point. at least he seems to have calmed down a bit.

There's something very obnoxious-teenage-boy about Weinberg's opinions and taste, isn't there?

yeah, i thought so, too. i keep picturing him as Comic-Store Guy from The Simpsons.
 
 
Quireboy
18:55 / 23.12.03
Ok, to return to the topic, how does the Black Bug Room fit into your theory Matthew. And can someone explain the similarities with the end of Morrison's JLA run.

I like the idea that Phoenix and Apocalpse are the same but seen from different angles. But I wonder if that depends on whether it's light or Dark Phoenix. Claremont's Dark Phoenix was a force of chaos, like Cassandra, in Morrison's run she burns through disorder. Perhaps if Dark Phoenix = Apocalpse/Cassandra, the Phoenix = Cassandra re-educated (Ernst). It might be that the Beast seeks to turn the disinfection into a far more destructive purging of the planet by turning Phoenix into Dark Phoenix.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:05 / 23.12.03
Well, as I said, when Scott is sent to the Black Bug Room, he is being taunted by scarabs, which are a big part of ancient Egyptian iconography. It could just be a weird creepy thing that has to do with Grant's own obsession with sinister insects, but I don't think it was accidental, especially when Cassandra makes a point of reminding us about the Black Bug Room again in #126. Not for nothing, but in Egyptian iconography, scarabs are a symbol of resurrection. I think it's a hint.
 
 
Quimper
19:17 / 23.12.03
To explain the similarities of JLA, I need to reread the World War 3 arc. But the premise was that very dark things were happening around the world. Soon, the earth's population was showing toxic levels of aggression on one another...newscasters committing suicide on air, people killing each other in the streets and all that good stuff.

The reason why turned out to be the conclusion to a running meta-plot throughout GM's run...the coming of Mageddon, the primal evil weapon of the universe. Mageddon was a machine as big as the sun coming to destroy the earth. It was Animal Man who figured out that Mageddon's coming was affecting the reptilian brains of all forms of life, creating an inherent evil inside everyone.

The similarities I draw are the use of a primal force of the universe and the toxic levels of aggression and perhaps a connection between the two.

What if we are way off about En Sabah Nur and it is actually the dark side of the Phoenix force responsible for mutantkind's aggression. Maybe the change in the mutant brain occurred when a primal force of nature touched all mutants on the planet...when Jean broke Charles's mind into millions of pieces and stored him in the mutant population.
 
 
diz
19:24 / 23.12.03
Not for nothing, but in Egyptian iconography, scarabs are a symbol of resurrection.

he has used scarab/resurrection imagery before. in fact, he begins The Invisibles that way...
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:26 / 23.12.03
I just googled "Black Bug Room," and this was the top result. Weird.

Anyway, I think the Mageddon stuff is on the right track.

If it's not En Sabah Nur (which at this point I highly doubt), then your Dark Phoenix thing could be it. But really, I think that it as simple as En Sabah Nur being the Mageddon-like force which is causing the aggression, and the Phoenix is there to disinfect it. It will "burn away the things that don't work," including itself probably.
 
 
Quireboy
19:33 / 23.12.03
Well that makes a lot of sense. Though perhaps you're reading too much into the Black Bug Room if Morrison's used scarab imagery before. I vaguely remember an Apocalypse storyline in which he says he engineered the death of the Phoenix (Claremont's run). Wouldn't expect that has any bearing on this story though, even if I remember rightly.
 
 
Quimper
19:46 / 23.12.03
Uh. Just thought of something. Cassandra called Logan "James." Did she gleam that from his mind? Or is she a part of Weapon Plus?
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
20:02 / 23.12.03
It should be noted that part of that Twelve story, which was the last En Sabah Nur story before Grant took over, Apocalypse was responsible for replacing the adamantium that Magneto had taken out of Wolverine. I think En Sabah Nur was always the shadowy figure behind the Weapon Plus program , at least in terms of supplying the science and technology to the humans - it was all a part of his engineered race war. So if that was the case, it'd make sense that En Sabah Nur would know how to replace Wolverine's metal if he'd been involved with grafting it to his skeleton the first time.
 
 
Quireboy
20:06 / 23.12.03
Well, both explanations are persuasive.
 
 
Quireboy
20:50 / 23.12.03
Just one random thought. When the Shi'ar warned Xavier about the coming of the Phoenix they said she had hatched and was "merciless". But Jean isn't merciless, expect perhaps in her psychic attack on Emma - and even there she later shows compassion by resurrecting her. Perhaps Jean has to lose her human compassion - which allows Magneto to kill her - to carry out the disinfection, i.e. she has to become dark Phoenix.

Back to the mummundrai - the Imperial arc presented it as a Shi'ar legend, and so was the Phoenix. So this ties in with the idea of an eternal struggle between two forces pushing on evolution.
 
 
Aertho
20:57 / 23.12.03
Mummudrai = Qlippoth
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
21:32 / 23.12.03
Perhaps Jean has to lose her human compassion - which allows Magneto to kill her - to carry out the disinfection, i.e. she has to become dark Phoenix.

Ah, this makes sense - in #148, she explains to Logan that the Phoenix burns away everything that does not work, and that it would probably judge her as well.

I wonder why the Phoenix egg takes so long to hatch - perhaps Jean did fulfill her mission by stopping Magneto, or perhaps she was cut short by Magneto, leading to that tear in the universe that we see when she dies in #150. Maybe a little of both?
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
21:45 / 23.12.03
Way too much conjecture at this stage people.

If we'd had this thread (which we kind of did) back before "Riot..." I might have agreed with some of the theories. Since Riot I really think GM's lost interest.
These singular sentences from early issues may all add up to make some vast conspiracy but I honestly don't think thats where this book is headed.
We may be able to cut and paste this sort of theory together but NO-ONE out there in fanboy land would consider it well thought out or planned.
See the return of Magneto as a prime example, looking back it was apparent from the Morrison manifesto that this was his intention all along, there's no mention of En Sabah Nur there. Or anything at all to hint that Grant could be tying all these frayed edges of story together with one big X-history nightmare.

Matthew's initial post does make sense but I don't think it wll play out like that. I think its all very simple: Mags and Phoenix have screwed with time and for some reason there are a bunch of people still alive 150 years in the future who really shouldn't be (Wolverine understandable but the cuckoos and cassandra? even Beast should really be dead by now). I think we'll have an "age of apocalypse" style divergent history that will need fixing by our time displaced heroes. Its all about the Phoenix, not Apocalypse.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:27 / 23.12.03
Oh come on. The last year hasn't been THAT sloppy that it would end up even half as awful as you're imagining, Rawkusboi. Grant has said all along that it was a big self contained story, and he has said that Here Comes Tomorrow resolves several hidden threads from the first two storylines. It's not that unbelievable. There's all kinds of mentions in that original manifesto of "hidden collaborators" etc. Also, lots of things in that thing never happened because that was the initial pitch, not the fully formed plot synopsis.

Logically, Wolverine is immortal. If we're right about Cassandra, she's not human. The Cuckoos are a mystery which will surely be explained. Odds are, that is NOT Henry McCoy.

In other words, have faith!
 
 
diz
23:34 / 23.12.03
i think there's definitely a long-running conspiracy plotline, if only because of the Sublime connections. also, because Beast was on the verge of figuring something out.
 
 
Quireboy
08:58 / 24.12.03
The big flaw in the Cassandra=Apocalypse, or was possessed by him, theory remains, as Quimper points out, that she intended to kill ALL mutants. I re-read E is for Extinction again and Cassandra does not come across like Apocalypse IMO. He was full of hyperbole, really full of himself, she is just damn nasty and evil. The characterisation seem quite different to me. Also in the arc, Hanks comments that Cassandra is like nothing they've ever seen before, she looks human but isn't, and then goes go to say that every 1,000 years or so evolution takes a sudden, unexpected leap forward. Now, re-reading this, it appeared to suggest that Cassandra was created rather than born, and it foreshadows the genetic experiments by Weapon Plus and the Beast.

And Rawkusboi clearly NXM has been full of conspiracies and people pulling strings behind the scenes.
 
 
Rawk'n'Roll
12:44 / 24.12.03
I'm quite happy to be proved wrong, please it'd certainly be a pleasant suprise.
This past year of NXM has been that disappointing to me, I'm reading it waiting for it all to make sense, or for there to be a big exposition issue that hits all the right buttons ever since Murder at the Mansion. It just hasn't happened. So my faith in the conclusion of the run is somewhat lacking.

I truly believe that I can only enjoy NXM at the moment by coming here and reading everyone discuss what they think is going on. All of the theorising about Quentin was much better than his actual characterisation in the book. I am getting a bit sick of making up excuses/reasons/theories to explain Grant's shoddy work of late. Sorry but thats just how I feel.

If it is ESN and Matthew is proved to be wholey correct then I hope that Grant has the wits about him to make the story sound convincing, unlike his recent run which has had all the ideas but nothing else that makes me love GM's work so much.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:52 / 24.12.03
and it foreshadows the genetic experiments by Weapon Plus and the Beast.

If anyone's MO is defined by 'genetic experiments,' it is En Sabah Nur. That's been his shtick since he was introduced in the 80s.
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
20:52 / 24.12.03
What if we are way off about En Sabah Nur and it is actually the dark side of the Phoenix force responsible for mutantkind's aggression.

I still say most of Grant's arc on the book is taken directly from the Lucifer Principle.
 
 
Mike-O
03:20 / 25.12.03
I wonder if u might be a little more specific with that interepretation, Kev. With Phoenix, I suppose I could see that but really it's not as tho her life is ended at the moment she sees herself as life itself... I'm not even too sure that's what Grant is pushing with her, just that she's an integral part of nature, sent for a specific purpose. I definitely don't see how the Lucifer Principle would define the run as a whole... but I may be missing something, so enlighten me. =)
 
 
Quimper
18:34 / 26.12.03
It's rather clear to me now how central John Sublime has been to this entire NXM run. He, to our knowledge, has been involved with...1) the U-Men, 2) Sublime Pharmaceuticals, and 3) Weapon Plus (Dr. Sublime?).

The U-Men had access to, or perhaps created, the nano-Sentinel enriched liquid. I'm assuming Sublime provided the nanos to Cassandra Nova. Martha Johansenn also arrived via the U-Men and she is pumped full of nano-Sentinels, right? Aren't those the needles coming out of her?

Sublime Pharma is probably responsible for Kick. Why? To kill/craze mutants into a frenzy, producing war. And, of course, to make cash. Kick was arguably the cause of the Riots (further fanning of the flames of war), prodded by Esme who is connected to Sublime Pharma through Kick. She was probably getting it directly from the source. Let's not forget that she somehow managed to get a diamond bullet and knew to aim for the nose. My guess is the diamond bullet definitely came from Sublime also, maybe the bullet was actually a piece of Emma that Sublime got from the Germ Free Generation arc.

Weapon Plus. Dr. Sublime? Hmmmm. This is either John Sublime, or Sublime has been an alias for someone else all along. Weapon Plus is responsible for the Super-Sentinels, the forgotten Master Mold (?), and probably nano-sentinel technology, strengthening the theory that Sublime provided Cassandra with it and not vice versa.

Nova is connected to Weapon Plus through nano-sentinels and the forgotten Master Mold. She is also a new species that Beast never saw before. Sublime has been responsible for all new species' in NXM thus far, so why not Cassandra? I think she's Weapon 14, a gene-mimicking Sentinel given a false history. It's all about illusion, misdirection.

Weapon Plus might also been connected to Magneto, as Asteroid M swung into place after the WP HQ blew up. Magneto and Weapon Plus are also connected through the nano-sentinels. Cassandra and Magneto could be connected through the nanos, or Mags could have just sensed them inside the X-Men and used it to his advantage after the fact. Mags is also connected to Sublime through the Feng Tu incident. Who played who? Did Sublime know Xorn was Magneto all along? Were they in it together? I think so, but Mags didn't know he was a pawn too. I think Sublime was playing everyone in the Feng Tu story, even though Mags was using Sublime to get inside the X-Men.

My point? Martha, the Riots, Esme, Kick, Cassandra, the Master Mold, nano-Sentinels, Magneto, the Super-Sentinels, the U-Men, Xorn, Weapon Plus...it all comes back to Sublime. Sublime was trying to start war and using Magneto as his predictable pawn. I'm guessing Sublime is En Sabah Nur. Hell, an already dead Sublime had a virtual presence online. He too, like the Beast in Here Comes Tomorrow, was experimenting with creating new species on earth, both through the U-Men and Weapon Plus. It seems like Fantomex in the next arc is a) in cohoots with the Beast, and b) sporting a U-Men symbol. Fantomex, not a mutant, not human, like the U-Men and the Super-Sentinels, pieced together from parts.

We know that En Sabah Nur (if GM goes by previous history) at least has the knowledge of adamantium grafting, and was probably involved with Weapon Plus from the get-o to create the final cleansing war. Double hell, John Sublime even sounds roughly like En Sabah.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:48 / 26.12.03
I really, really don't think that Dr. Sublime = John Sublime from Germ Free Generation. I think he's John's dad or somesuch. He was drawn as being an older guy than John Sublime. I think John's U-Men thing was just a front operation, and that John really was just an obnoxious spoiled rich kid who wanted to be a mutant and had this whole eccentric cult built around him. He had the funding and technology because of his dad, who was/is in charge of Weapon Plus.

I think they are both dead now anyway - John died when he fell from the building, Dr. Sublime died on the Weapon Plus satellite. I think the Sublime stuff is key to this whole thing, but I'm sticking with my theory that they are just pawns of En Sabah Nur.
 
 
Quimper
01:54 / 27.12.03
True. Find the link between John Sublime and Dr. Sublime, and there's your answer. Father and Son? That would fit into Grant's theme of new trying to replace old. It's probable (definite?) that Dr. Sublime is the evil doctor who told off Fantomex over the monitor. But it's also probable that John Sublime is a doctor. So far, all we know is that the link to everything is merely the word Sublime.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:00 / 27.12.03
Main Entry: 1sub·lime
Pronunciation: s&-'blIm
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): sub·limed; sub·lim·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French sublimer, from Medieval Latin sublimare to refine, sublime, from Latin, to elevate, from sublimis
Date: 14th century
transitive senses
1 : to cause to pass directly from the solid to the vapor state and condense back to solid form
2 [French sublimer, from Latin sublimare] a (1) : to elevate or exalt especially in dignity or honor (2) : to render finer (as in purity or excellence) b : to convert (something inferior) into something of higher worth
intransitive senses : to pass directly from the solid to the vapor state
- sub·lim·able /-'blI-m&-b&l/ adjective
- sub·lim·er noun
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
15:02 / 27.12.03
Or, 'subliminal' - existing or functioning below the threshold of consciousness.
 
  

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