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UK Perception of America

  
  

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kaonashi
02:08 / 17.12.03
Sorry if this comes out garbled, I have given this some thought but it may not yet be fully coherent. This was originally provoked by thoughts about the popularity and success of Bowling for Columbine.
I feel that many well intentioned people, people that pride that themselves on their careful self analysis and who intensely desire to live free of any bias. Are strongly even irrationally bigoted against some mental image of America.

I am American, sometimes I wish I could expatriate but at the moment that just isn't an option. It just struck me that in many UK citizens and I am talking about intelligent, informed people here, there view of what American life is like seems to be a crossbreed between the soap opera Dallas and Friend's white New York.

Am I offbase here ? Please if you aren't already offended by me try and reason with me.

Question 1: Do any other American posters on this board feel this way ?

Question 2: Do any UK posters have any idea what I am talking about ?

Question 3: Does anyone who has lived in both countries have an alternate viewpoint?
 
 
Jack Denfeld
04:21 / 17.12.03
Question 1: Do any other American posters on this board feel this way ?
That intelligent people seem to have a stereotype of the good old USA? Sure, I noticed snide remarks as soon as I joined Barbelith, but I think some of it stems from not fully explaining the posts. When backed into a corner most posters will say that they meant to say the American government and not it's fine upstanding citizens. Also we're a huge nucleur superpower and an entertainment superpower and it's easy to take shots at us. No big deal. It's best to just try to understand the argument being made and see if it applies to you personally.

Question 2: Do any UK posters have any idea what I am talking about ?

Anarchy in the Uk! I am an anti-CHRIST, I am an anarCHIST!

Question 3: Does anyone who has lived in both countries have an alternate viewpoint?

I've travelled but never really lived in other countries. I did see this hot redhead in Shannon(sp?) Ireland that I had sex with in the airport bathroom while eating a giant steak, sippin a Budweiser, and shooting off my six-shooter, Yee-haw!! Just kidding, I didn't have sex with her.
 
 
illmatic
07:52 / 17.12.03
Well, I think I know what you mean, but as Jack says, you've got to distingush criticism of your government from criticism of your country. I mean, I absolutely detest your current administration but I feel the same about Tony Blair and co., as do a lot (if not all) of the UK posters here (have we got any fans of Blair here, while we're at it? I have certain problems with your socio-political model but again that's the same - it doesn't equate with hasting all US citizens. (For me actually, I think one of the most important things that could happen here politically is to break with American models and move towards Europe but that's off topic). As to the American people, well y'know, how could I make sweeping comments about such a diverse mass of people? It's the same with the "average" American lifestyle - it should be obvious to any thinking person that there's a huge diversity of lifestyles in the US, it's one of the things I like about the country actually, though we do we recieve a lot of PR images of a certain type of white, WASP success through the media. I see these, the whole kind of "Friends" lifestyle as PR, propaganda expressing the lives/aspirations of the dominant minority, nothing more.

There are sterotypes of American people, but they're just that, sterotypes. Communications like this, all the Americans I've met in real life, my visits to your country, do a lot to break that down hopefully. Have a look at the "Englishness" thread in the Conversation if you want to see some analysis of the same sterotypes as applied to us. Whisky Priestess pt it better than I could: Now I'm off to colonise some African countries, get spanked, read Dickens, drink tea while being repressed about sex and tell jokes about the Irish.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:30 / 17.12.03
I have three simple problems with North America: the government, the right wing culture and the human rights record. They're generally connected, any government of the country is run by the right wing (IMO, I admit I'm more left than most) and all of them have rather abhorrently failed to uphold human rights for US citizens. When I write 'America' I don't generally mean 'Americans' but it can be difficult to separate the population from the culture, they usually go hand in hand. I would never assume that a stereotype applied to an individual but then my problem's not with individuals, it's with the collective.
 
 
_Boboss
09:47 / 17.12.03
question 2
guantanamo kyoto and the icc. all very straightforward and unapologetic defianances of civilised values.

their are british versions of these things, perhaps our politicians know the benefit of not showing off though - you can't name them, can you?

most of my american friends currently live under a government (nominally) run by the terminator

hence, if i want to take the piss out of them, I can, and they know to put up/shut up with it because

the terminator is their head of state. do you see?

ass he himself would have said - 'we've god to ged to da chopper'
 
 
wembley can change in 28 days
10:01 / 17.12.03
Question 3: Does anyone who has lived in both countries have an alternate viewpoint?
Well, almost. I'm Canadian. Half of my parents now live in Kentucky (and love it up like butter). I lived in the UK (London) for 5 months and have traveled somewhat extensively throughout the UK. I now live in Finland.

I think it's all well and good to rant about Bush's policies, or those of other administrations in the US, but what really got my goat was a more subtle stereotyping that occurred as soon as I opened my mouth when living in London. With a great many (not all, but many) people, my accent made people treat me differently - like I'd magically lost 30 IQ points.

Being Canadian, America is a mystery even to me. I have many American friends and love them to pieces because they're great people and we understand one another. On the other hand, how is it possible that I could put all the Americans I know in a big fat country, and all of a sudden they'd start acting like infantile warmongers and produce such a vapid consumer culture? The connection between the individual and the collective is a huge enigma wrapped in a mystery for me.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:36 / 17.12.03
It's pretty much an enigma for me too but I know it has to be there... the boundaries just can't be judged. I'm far more accepting of Americans now than I was 5 years ago but I know far more Americans now and I'm aware that you can't judge people by location. That does nothing to destroy my dislike of the culture but then I'm talking about mid-west USA and not NYC, a place with an entirely different culture and one that I like.
 
 
Linus Dunce
11:18 / 17.12.03
Hello Ghost,

I'm from the UK and I've lived in the US as a high school and as a university student. Most Brits' knowledge of the US, as you suspect, is gained from watching movies and TV shows and possibly the odd two-week holiday in Florida. The ubiquity of US cultural artifacts over here and the phonetic similarity of language gives them a confident feeling that the are qualified to speak on US culture, and the more provincial (of which there are many more than they like to think) are quite unaware that they are viewing Friends etc. through their own cultural lens before they make their pithy pronouncements. Most of these strikingly original and witty comments boil down to the observation that you speak funny.

You'll also come across what appears to be hypocrisy, e.g. accusations of human rights abuses from the country that was running H-Blocks not so long ago, complaints of American racism while regularly voting facists into its local governments and bitching-sessions about cultural imperialism in the language we forced the world to speak. Britain abolished slavery about five minutes before the US and boy, are you going to hear about that. Don't try and fight this -- they believe the US to be the most hypocritical nation on earth and just plain wrong and that cancels out anything their own country might be guilty of and there is nothing you can say or do about it I'm afraid.

At the same time, they will have funny ideas about their own perceived rights, freedom of association, separation of church and state, right to silence, votes for women etc. that will warm the cockles of your heart. They will claim to have invented and won these all by themselves without any US influence whatsoever though, so, for the sake of decorum, keep it under your hat.

If you want to have a bit of fun watching their eyes go all funny like the defeated fembots in Austin Powers, bide your time and slip these into the conversation:

"Actually, the 'World Series' is not an example of American hubris at all, it's named after the newspaper that was the orginal sponsor."

"Actually no, the World Trade Center was nothing to do with the World Trade Organisation."

"They have no sense of irony you say? What about the Simpsons? Oh, I see, that's the exception that proves the rule. Well, then, what about Frasier? Catch 22?"

I hope you enjoy the company of Brits and maybe get to visit. Take us with a pinch of salt, we love you really. We are, after all, dissolute Europeans.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:35 / 17.12.03
IJ. That was pretty patronising, all in all. I suppose your intention is to fend off gross caricatures of americans by confronting brits with a caricature tailor made for them. Fair enough, I suppose, though not very constructive.
 
 
Linus Dunce
11:49 / 17.12.03
Patronising, how?

Fending off the usual gross caricatures is not constructive, how?
 
 
Tezcatlipoca
11:56 / 17.12.03
I feel that many well intentioned people, people that pride that themselves on their careful self analysis and who intensely desire to live free of any bias. Are strongly even irrationally bigoted against some mental image of America.

Possibly, but it strikes me that we - as with many critics of the US - are chiefly using the word 'America' to mean 'American Foreign/Domestic Policy'. I think the mental image to which you refer isn't intended to actually be a description of ones feelings about the Americans themselves, but rather is a convenient - although evidently confusing - term to describe the actions of the country (viz. the actions of that governing body).

There are also varying degrees of anti-Americanism, and I certainly think you have to be cautious about confusing a disagreement with American policies with an actual dislike with all things American.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
11:59 / 17.12.03
Fending off caricatures by employing other caricatures might not be particularly constructive. Much of what you say about British people is pertinent, but it's not applicable to the entire population - just as the caricatures of America and Americans which you mention are not applicable to the entire American population.

I expect a lot of people here are just as sick of the cliches as you are (can't remember the last time I heard someone go on about the Americans being unable to appreciate irony without someone else challenging them).
 
 
Linus Dunce
12:14 / 17.12.03
It was never meant to apply to the whole population. If you don't recognise yourself in it, fine, I ask and hope that you will forgive me.

But I find it difficult to accept that many people are that sick of the cliches outside of places like Barbelith.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:21 / 17.12.03
Ignatius, I'd probably agree with your post but this is just the most ridiculous paragraph

accusations of human rights abuses from the country that was running H-Blocks not so long ago, complaints of American racism while regularly voting facists into its local governments and bitching-sessions about cultural imperialism in the language we forced the world to speak

The first sentence is as biased against others as the supposed bias that others have against America but rather more importantly those things do happen. America is a racist nation or rather its institutions can be racist, its human rights abuses are constant though not in all States but it is currently committing federal abuse through Gunatanamo. Of course it comes hand in hand with cultural imperialism, it's the first world country with the most power, it can't be avoided.

I don't really understand why you're fixated on slavery and votes for women when rather important things are happening internationally right now but what I really want to know is why the rant? I have never seen anyone on barbelith assume that any other country was superior because of America's faults. It probably has happened but not in the last few days to my knowledge, so why the rant?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
12:26 / 17.12.03
Ignatius_J Most Brits' knowledge of the US, as you suspect, is gained from watching movies and TV shows and possibly the odd two-week holiday in Florida.

That's because it's never in the news or has books written about it. Oh wait...
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:31 / 17.12.03
What's forgiveness got to do with it? I wasn't offended - just pointing out that perhaps your method of confronting stereotypes was a little counter-productive...
 
 
w1rebaby
12:41 / 17.12.03
First off, anyone who thinks *Barbelith* is a bastion of prejudice against Americans really needs to get out more, net-wise. The real thing, which ranges from a general patronising tone of "what can you expect from the fat gun-crazy bible-bashers" to spit-drenched denunciations of AMERIKKKAN ZIONAZI MURDERERS, can be found on many, many boards.

Anyway, as a Brit living in the US I have found myself caught between two different annoyances:

1. stupid Brits ranting on about the US, how it doesn't have any culture and Americans are all ignorant and there's no irony and so on
2. stupid Americans telling me that my criticisms of US policy are based on the fact that I hate Bush, rather than, say, because there might be something *wrong* with them

There is a slight difference between the two. The former is a rant in itself, it's not used in arguments, though it sometimes comes out when insults are traded. It's fairly simple prejudice, there are plenty of counter-examples for everything (particularly in a country the size of the US) and it generally just marks the speaker as an idiot.

The latter is designed to allow the speaker to feel comfortable dismissing any difficult points. Ascribe a psychological motivation to an argument and you can ignore the argument. This is irrational - the motivation for an argument is irrelevant to the argument - but I'm finding it teeth-grindingly common. It's not just applied to Brits and Old Europeans, but regularly to anyone who disagrees with the speaker or expresses an opinion. Such cheap and worthless psychoanalysis manifests itself routinely in other media too, be it "they hate freedom" propaganda or earnest articles on the mental state of terrorists. Clearly it would be far too difficult to actually address the points. It's a debating tactic that drives me up the fucking wall and I'm afraid that by now, anyone who replies to one of my arguments by calling me "anti-Bush" is going to be met with as much sarcasm as I can muster at the time.

Another connected thing that annoys me is the assumption that everyone has loyalty to a "side" and all criticism is actually motivated by the fact that the target is on the other side and you are trying to make your own side look superior (criticism of America must be bigging up England and therefore hypocritical). This leads to a lot of utterly ridiculous conversations along the lines of

Person A: It's terrible that Bush did (whatever)
Person B: Bullshit, Clinton did (whatever) which was far worse

but is neither inaccurate in all cases (some people really are motivated by this and quite happy to engage in the above) nor not strictly connected with this issue, so I won't go into it.

Basically, the motivation of the speaker doesn't matter, whatever side they are on. If they're consistently coming out with weak arguments that seem to be motivated just by prejudice, ignore them. If not, challenge the arguments.
 
 
Linus Dunce
12:42 / 17.12.03
But, don't you see?

Barbelith is not Britain.

You say Iraq, I say Iraq and Chechnya. You say Guantanamo, I say Guantanamo and Sharia. Who's fixated?

And I'm talking to you, not about you.
 
 
w1rebaby
12:55 / 17.12.03
You say Iraq, I say Iraq and Chechnya. You say Guantanamo, I say Guantanamo and Sharia. Who's fixated?

Pardon? I don't think I understand what you're trying to say here.
 
 
Linus Dunce
13:36 / 17.12.03
Sorry, I have temporarily lost the power to communicate explicitly. I have a metal plate in my head, put there after I got trampled by the crowd during the ST(blood spot)P PUTIN marches in 1999.
 
 
Lurid Archive
13:57 / 17.12.03
I think KKC has answered why your approach is counterproductive, IJ.

It was never meant to apply to the whole population. If you don't recognise yourself in it, fine, I ask and hope that you will forgive me.

But thats just the point. You can equally justify prejudice against americans on those grounds.

Having said that, there are certain national trends and modes of thought, certain propositions that get accepted more easily in one place than another. Making Brits out to be a bunch of historically illiterate, american haters who think that Friends is an accurate representation of the US may not be the most considered way to approach that question, however. And as fridge says, it is a suspiciously convenient way to dismiss dissent.
 
 
Linus Dunce
14:48 / 17.12.03
Sure, one can dismiss an valid argument by claiming it is based on emotion or ignorance, but that doesn't make all emotional or ignorant arguments valid, does it?

That, if you like, is my point.
 
 
Lurid Archive
15:14 / 17.12.03
Thing is, what counts as an emotional argument? Personally, I think that it is best practice to address points raised. Speculations about motivations of the proponents of certain arguments can be useful, but can't be substituted for responding to their arguments, or lack thereof.

Given that we are partly talking about opposition to US foreign policy, something that has really quite widespread intellectual and popular support, it seems deeply suspect to start throwing around words like "psychotic" to describe that set of positions. Disagree, by all means, but don't dismiss.

Or rather, you can dismiss all you want. But its a really effective way to drain all the good faith from a discussion.
 
 
Linus Dunce
15:36 / 17.12.03
Hehe! Well, "psychotic" is presumably in reference to the Saddam thread yesterday. The backstory of that was that someone (Flyboy? I can't remember) dismissed the idea of discussion of group thought in psychoanalytical terms as something that only appeared on the pages of Vanity Fair. I knew there was a guy who had written about this in somewhere rather better than VF, well before Iraq, but for the life of me couldn't (and still can't) remember his name. So I cheated, and it came back to bite me in the ass.

Anyway ... isn't this better than a couple of people writing "it's their policies, not them, but they're a bunch of cunts" and another one going, "yeah, I agree"? I'm not so arrogant as to believe I could entertain much less educate you, but damn, I'm having much more fun than I would.
 
 
Linus Dunce
15:39 / 17.12.03
BTW, I get just as wound up at places like LGF or Indymedia, but those fuckers can barely string a sentence together.
 
 
pachinko droog
16:42 / 17.12.03
Life in America is, well, surreal.

That seems to be the best descriptive term I can conjure up at the moment. For the most part, one's impressions are by neccessity limited to where one resides/frequents. That being said, there are "enclaves" of liberal tolerance and also of conservative repression. (I think that most of the US falls somewhere in the middle, like along a spectrum.)

Americans are often criticized as being unaware of what their govt. is up to or of being apathetic when it comes to political involvement. Truthfully, most Americans don't care NOT because they're lazy, apathetic slugs, but because they are either:

--working more hours for less money, and are on the high-stress hamster wheel of providing for family, paying off debts, paying rent or mortgage, paying skyrocketing insurance premiums, and worrying about a million and one things besides.

OR

--they're unemployed and really stressing out, trying to stay afloat and find work.

The "American Dream" as it were is becoming increasingly more and more difficult to attain. Home ownership is becoming the exclusive province of the wealthy, and the middle class is being rapidly squeezed out of existence.

But our media doesn't talk about that. What our media tells us is so remote from our lives that we no longer listen to the soundbytes, as they are not relevant. All it has become is distraction. Distraction through titilation and fear.

And when all is said and done, what most people care about is whether or not they'll still have a roof over their heads next month, and insurance coverage for their kids, and whether or not they can afford to pay the heating bills, AND the credit card bills, AND the car payments, AND put food on the fucking table.

Don't think for a minute that just because we're "Americans" that we have it so easy. Most of us are struggling like hell. Sorry if that comes across as "apathy" to some, but what has essentially happened in the US in the last 30 years is that our standard of living has dropped, our earning power has dropped, and our rights are being turned back into privileges.

Employers no longer have to pay time and a half for overtime worked. Union membership is at an all-time historical low, and the power of collective bargaining has never been weaker. Jobs are being sent overseas at an ever-increasing rate, both blue-collar and white-collar. College education is increasingly out of reach for many. The poor have been defacto criminalized.

And we are turning into a police state in many respects, lest I forget.

Sorry if I come across as being angry.

Its not directed at anyone on the board. Its just that there is so much misunderstanding going on and its easier to simply generalize based on what one's govt. says/does or what comes across in the media/pop culture.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
18:06 / 17.12.03
OK, I've got lots to say about this as I've seen a bit of the US and a little of England.

I was brought up in a suburb where I really had no idea what a non-white person was like nor did I understand what a Jew was (honestly... to us, Protestants were weird)... aside from what the jokes said. The word 'gay' had little to do with having sex with someone your gender and was basically a word used to describe something you hated. Most of my friends knew someone who a) fucked a cat, b) was molested by her babysitter, and c) had at least one abortion.

I later lived in Western Mass, where I met Jimmy Buffet fans who all made very good money through their parents, fiddled about with their ideas about education and career, and the women veered from wanting to be cops to housewives after they achieved their exemplary education that they never used afterwards.

I also travelled a lot and worked in North Carolina and Oklahoma. I made some good friends, but mostly met closed-minded people who were very happy with sectioning themselves off from certain parts of the country. For instance, the North (Massachusetts) was viewed by the South as queer, rich, and liberal. The South (Oklahoma/NC) by the North as being dumb, inbred and poor. No one in the south or midwest ever denied me anything, but they made sure I knew they had 'opinions' on things. They really did seem to think they were protecting me. I also lived in Delaware, and quite liked it... not much to say, I think they were all busy being 'chill.'

My brother teaches Calculus to Oklahoma University students. You can buy beer in supermarkets, everyone has a beer fridge in their garage, and they literally punch each other at gas stations when the price of gas goes up... literally.

When I lived in Cambridge, UK for a summer, I worked at a sandwich shop and lived with a Canadian, a well to-do America and two Brits. LOVED IT. I'm a big anglophile, so I was in hog heaven. Then the Canadian left and a Seattle couple moved in, pissing and moaning about not getting good food, hating the coffee, and sticking to themselves. The two Brits overextended themselves in making them welcome but in the end, we all agreed that they were horrible people.

I don't recall meeting anyone unkind or unwelcoming at all during my stay in the Cambridge, but... I never got laid either. So... I have a bone to pick with you, England!

I also got to visit Scotland and thought I'd gone to Heaven.

I will say that there is a very silly tendancy to posters saying they cannot separate American citizens from the American government. There are several posters on this board who are American and who are decent intelligent people. They surely have friends who are likewise. And if those people can find their way into a now very exclusive club like Barbelith, surely there are... what... 20 more people of this ilk in the US?

It's very easy to let media manipulate your views on various things. After watching American citizens interviewed on the BBC or reading USA Today articles, the average Brit must think we're a load of mice just looking for the next hole to be lead into. But when it comes to people, I think it's a good idea to go with direct experience.

For those of you lacking in direct experience, I advice you to travel a lot... unless you're American. Thanks to the Pres, we are not really welcome much of anywhere.
 
 
Mister Six, whom all the girls
18:15 / 17.12.03
I will also add a frightening story from my brother's 'Gateway to Learning' class that he teaches. In it, he is trying to sheperd freshmen into the college lifestyle. That alone is terrifying.

But in reference to this thread, I will tell a short tale about a student who gave a presentation about her education in France. Throughout the presentation, the students were indifferent and annoyed, some even reading magazines and paying no attention. My brother, for some reason, was clueless as to why. Finally, after her presentation opened up to Q and A, a student asked her what she thought of the French being cowards in WW2. My brother was stunned, but luckily the speaker was prepared and provided the facts that the US entered the war very late, even after war had been decalared on the them, and that the French Resistance was very instrumental in defending free territories, etc. The students were not to be moved and in the end asked her if she was with the US or against it.

THIS disturbs me. This country was founded under the idea that all (white) men (not women) are created equal (under God, no other evil voodoo deity)... Given that there are obvious flaws in that foundation, it is still terrifying to me that young people view the world in black and white, enemy and ally. This is a tendancy I've seen aggrevated in the past four years as the Evil Emporor has seeped his juice into the country through the news, etc. But it is the way with the country, it imitates its leaders. I deeply hope that Bush is for the skids as I believe it will at least partially turn things around.

I apologize for blathering on. I'm usually pretty quiet here. I think I had too much coffee.
 
 
w1rebaby
20:10 / 17.12.03
It's very easy to let media manipulate your views on various things. After watching American citizens interviewed on the BBC or reading USA Today articles, the average Brit must think we're a load of mice just looking for the next hole to be lead into. But when it comes to people, I think it's a good idea to go with direct experience.

I think this is a very good point. I have seen many people who consider themselves aware of the manipulations of the media turn round and say in exasperation "why do all these Americans support Bush? Why are they all convinced that Saddam caused 9-11?" as if that was actually true. It seems that they are unable to differentiate between the media portrayal, both domestically and internationally, of the US as one big flag-waving mass, and the reality, which is one where I find myself seeing stickers saying "BUSH LIED" on lampposts.

Now, the US media machine is very good at its job, but really, I don't think it's that much effort to distrust reports of massive US approval as much as you would distrust other reports. If there's a prejudice at work, it's here - people are much too willing to believe what they're told if it makes US citizens look like idiots. Much simpler.

For the record, I don't believe the population of the US is any more credulous than that of any other country. A lot of people don't really care about the issues, and if trusting the government is the easy route to feeling like they're doing the right thing by doing nothing, 99% of the time they'll take it. The media makes this extremely easy; the whole strategy is based on the fact that people don't really pay that much attention to it, it's an impressionistic one. Mention Iraq and al Qaeda enough in the same paragraph and people will associate the two. The level of independent political thought, individualistic truth-seeking and devotion to ideals of free speech and information rights is greater here than I saw in the UK, IMO.
 
 
+#'s, - names
22:49 / 17.12.03
Bowling for Columbine is the ultimate is leftist spoon feeding.
 
 
_Boboss
08:41 / 18.12.03
'yeah so the government i let make decisions for me is a bunch of cunts, granted, but that doesn't make me one does it?'

no no that makes you a cunt's overfed slave.

that's what we getting at here.

'don't say nasty things about america.american foreign policies.fixed elections that we accepted.big macs.refusing to expect our soldiers to act like humans in war.switching back to two-wheel drive.american babies.american beauties'

sorry, but if your government is a shit as that, is doing this shit in your name and to protect your lifestyle, why isn't it fair for other people to have a little bit of a go? you're still the richest and best fed in the world, can't you put up with a bit of ribbing?
 
 
Linus Dunce
09:01 / 18.12.03
Ah yes, Americans are fat. I forgot that one. And our lifestyle is nothing if not frugal -- why, we're practically a perpetual motion machine!

Eat your fish & chips and drive your Ford Focus, there's a good chap.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
09:07 / 18.12.03
Thing is, Khaologan, that saying things like that is almost guaranteed to put people's backs up. So if you want to make people (anyone) think about their lifestyle/opinions/whatever, that's just about the worst way to do it. Of course, if you don't care about that and just want to slag people off, that's a good way to do it. Makes you sound lazy and as if you're spouting received opinion, though - as if you want other people to change their opinions but can't be bothered to examine your own.
 
 
_Boboss
11:45 / 18.12.03
my opinions on this issue are clearly pathetically thought out and structured.

just like the whole bag of rubbish geopolitical situation we're in, that has made us have discussions like this, which I couldn't have imagined us having here two years ago.

these days i consider the idea, that somebody should consider their own 'opinion' or nationalistic sensibilities grand enough that another's words can be felt as 'insulting' towards them, to be monstrous.

there's folk dying and folk living in misery because of the actions of our ['pologies to non brits/yanks] s/elected representatives, and we're sat around reassuring each other 'but that doesn't make me a bad person'

when i think, kinda, it does, and it's very unseemly to get in a piss if someone should point that out.
 
 
Lurid Archive
12:00 / 18.12.03
sorry, but if your government is a shit as that, is doing this shit in your name and to protect your lifestyle, why isn't it fair for other people to have a little bit of a go?

Given US power, it isn't completely out of order. But trying to pretend as a brit(?) that we have some kind of moral superiority to americans completely undermines anything you have to say. There is plenty of blame to go all round. The US may be the biggest bully in the playground, but it isn't the only one.

So yeah, we are partly responsible and we should be doing more. But if you really want someone to *blame* in that general way, you can do worse than starting with yourself.
 
  

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