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Underground > Comic Books >

The Ultimates #12

  
  

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The Falcon
16:16 / 08.12.03
Some might say that was the (or a) point. You know it won't happen, though.

The France thing was just as funny/topical as Surrender Monkey in X-Statix. If both comics had not been delayed, for whatever reason, this might've seemed a bit more contemporaneous.

I assume we're miffed at the character rather than the writer here? Marky-boy can't be responsible for his readers, just like Eminem can't for his listeners; foul-mouthed brats, the lot of them.

This is 1980's Republican Action Movie with an unlimited budget. I like Cobra and Commando. I like this.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
17:04 / 08.12.03
Ha ha! Excellent point, Duncan. This is Commando. Better yet, Invasion U.S.A.. And I forgot about Surrender Monkey. Thank you for bringing him back into my life.

Quinine, if you can justify kicking Hank's ass (which I do), then I think kicking a murderer in the face so he can actually feel some physical retribution (which he did not, as the Hulk. In fact his savage beating at the hands of Thor only left him more, er, excitable) seems to me to be even more justified. He not only murdered women (which, I'm guessing is your justifiation for spousal abuse retribution? I mean hitting a woman isn't more or less reprehensible if you're married to her), but countless children and men, who also feel pain, and felt lots of it when they were smooshed into the concrete. Shit, does this make me a Republican? I don't know, personally, and this might explain a lot, I think justice should take the form of a punishment that actually has an impact (Which is why I'm against the death penalty. It lets criminals off too easily. But that's another thread.) But I think The Ultimates is as far from a political book as you can get. Should Back To The Future be considered a treatise on Arab-American relations because Marty escapes from Libyan terrorists in its opening minutes? I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a friend about how The West Wing sucks now because it's become, in his words, "Overly Political". How is this possible, for a show about the freakin' White House, for this to suddenly become a problem? Apparently it's finally, after 4 seasons (?) become partisan. The Ultimates, although they work for the Bush Administration, are not his mouthpiece, or even his left arm. They are a government funded Super-Team but they have not, as of yet (and unlike Millar's Authority), taken any kind of political stance. Like I said, ask anyone of any party how thay'd feel about a) a rampaging monster destroying Manhattan or b) an alien race exploding our solar system, I think you'd get a broad crosssection of voters in favor of neutralizing both possibilities, toot sweet, no matter what pithy comments the soldiers might be making in the process.

I still, sorry, don't see Captain America as a bully. BRUCE MURDERED HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE IN A PRE-MEDITATED RAMPAGE. If he gets thrown out of a thousand helicopters a day (and he would no doubt survive every single one), he would still be getting off light. If anything Nick Fury or The Ultimates have done is questionable, it's ever letting that guy out of his fucking cage. I don't remember him being excessively rough with Xavier or The X-Men either. He is a decisive and effective soldier. He gets the job done and then he stops. He does not, as bullies do, pick unnecessary fights or assault people just for the sake of assaulting them.

21st Century America, on the other hand...

And, Khaol, they're not my goods. It's all in the book.
 
 
diz
17:19 / 08.12.03
Captain America is no hero. He is a bully disguised as a Weapon of Mass Destruction disguised as a Patriot.

yes, exactly. welcome to the world of "parody."

regular Marvel Cap is pretty much a pretty decent, liberal-ish guy. Ultimate Cap is pretty much what would happen if you turned a regular guy from America in the 1940s into an ubermensch and had him hit the beach at Normandy, than froze him in a block of ice so that he misses the cultural changes of the past 60 years.

as a result, he's a living artifact of the generation most revered by contemporary Americans, the so-called "good old days." however, as a result, he is, by modern standards, a total jackass and a fascist asshole.

this is like Starship Troopers. you have Audience Group 1 who basically cheer and say "yeah! these guys kick ass! U-S-A! U-S-A!", Audience Group 2 who get horrified and say "oh, my GOD, these people are fascists!", and Audience Group 3 who say "Ha! Verhoeven/Millar can make Audience Group 1 cheer for Nazis, because American audiences will accept anything that hits the right 'action movie' notes, and because they have (not-so-)latent fascist sympathies!"

The Ultimates is parody, but it's also a commentary on the fact that a good portion of the audience doesn't get that it's parody, takes it as totally straight-faced, and cheers anyway.

'what if superheroes were real?' they ask - moore asked it in watchmen and had the same answer in the characters of rorschach and ozymandias: 'they'd be the fucking baddies'

or so removed from the perceptions and limitations of being human that they're totally unable to relate to things on our scale (Dr. Manhattan).

but, yeah, it's pretty much addressing many of the same points Moore addressed in Watchmen, but since he's using and abusing iconic characters like Captain America, it gives things a different effect overall.
 
 
diz
17:26 / 08.12.03
Tony's heart condition

iirc, Millar has said he has no intentions of following up on this at all. as i understand it, Tony's not actually sick or dying in any way. Millar is basically writing it off as Tony making shit up on the fly to fuck with people's heads a bit and keep conversation spiky and interesting.
 
 
The Falcon
17:26 / 08.12.03
Obviously, Independence Day is a better reference point, but I haven't seen that.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
17:36 / 08.12.03
Parody? For real? I mean, don't get me wrong, it's funny at many turns. It had "Giant Man Vs. Wasp" on the cover of an issue centered mainly around spousal abuse. Is that parody? What The --? was parody. I've typed that word so many times now that it's gone all blurry.

A literary or artistic work that imitates the characteristic style of an author or a work for comic effect or ridicule.

Okay, so it's a parody of the "Republican Action Movies" mentioned above? I mean, I think of Ultimate Adventures as parody, maybe even Dark Knight Strikes Back, but what is Millar aping here? Books with well-drawn (so to speak) character arcs and action?

I really don't think he's trying to make fools out of anyone who enjoys this book on its artistic merits. I think Cap is an object of pity and derision at times for his antiquated views, but that's his character. Is Humbert Humbert a parody of pedophiles?
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
17:48 / 08.12.03
And could some one please explain to me once and for all how stopping a rampaging monster, stopping an alien race from annhilating the planet, or breaking a wife-beater's jaw is fascist.

Let's go to the videotape again, just for clarification's sake.

A system of government Nope marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, Hardly stringent socioeconomic controls, Really? suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, Oh, come on. and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. Tt! I mean...

Belligerent, I guess that might be the soft zone. Are Cap's views belligerent?

Inclined or eager to fight; hostile or aggressive.

Alright. You got me there. He is indeed quite belligerent at this point. So he's belligerently nationalist. But that's it, by my estimation.

So can we just find and replace the next time we feel like using the f word? Come on, you can just the abbreviation BN if you feel like it.
 
 
diz
17:57 / 08.12.03
Parody? For real? I mean, don't get me wrong, it's funny at many turns.

it's not just about being funny in the way you mean. it's really blatantly a critique of the superhero genre, its conventions, and the roots of those conventions in the American psyche. it's sharply political, and pretty bleakly so, too.

Okay, so it's a parody of the "Republican Action Movies" mentioned above?

it's a parody (or, maybe better, an ironic reflection) of American culture in gneral, using superheros and the action genre as the primary lenses.

I really don't think he's trying to make fools out of anyone who enjoys this book on its artistic merits.

it depends on what you consider to be its artistic merits. if you mean its artful ability to skewer the American obsession with a sort of buffed-up mediagenic muscular action heroism as a manifestation of something inherently fascist in the American character, than i'd say you're right. if you mean artistic value as a straight-up well-written conventional superhero book, well... i'm afraid the joke's on you.

I think Cap is an object of pity and derision at times for his antiquated views, but that's his character. Is Humbert Humbert a parody of pedophiles?

no. Humbert Humbert is a great deal more sympathetic than Cap, who is just pathetic. or, should i say, he's pathetic at best, scary at worst, scariest most of all because we find ourselves wanting to root for him despite ourselves. he's a really twisted mirror for Americans to look at themselves, and find this barbaric sense of self-righteousness, aggression, and fanaticism almost looking back at them.

regular Marvel Cap is how America would like to see itself, but Ultimate Cap is Millar vomiting that back up and showing us how (he thinks) we really are - pathetically violent, antiquated, crazed fascists looking for a bad guy to beat up in the name of our "just cause," never mind that this just cause involves basically being the thug of a government which, in the Ultimate universe is both wildly incompetent and guilty of all sorts of atrocities.

i mean, the first issue of Millar's Ultimate X-Men has the same government that the Ultimates serve deeply engaged in ongoing genocide. they proceed to replace this program only under extreme duress with Weapon X, which basically enslaves a bunch of people for use in extremely black ops. the Ultimates first really come on the scene to take out the Hulk, who is one of their own projects gone out of control. it just goes on and on.
 
 
houdini
18:17 / 08.12.03

Without wanting to be quite so confrontational about it, I think I agree with Dizfactor's stance: This is parody, out and out.

I think it actually speaks quite well of Millar's writing that, for once, it's relatively subtle. All the time Ellis (bugbear alert...) was doing StormWatch and the Authority there was a subtext of how powerful are these characters going to become, how much are they going to get away with and for how long are we prepared to root for them. Ellis even came out and hit the point with a hammer in the Planetary/Authority "Who Rules The World" book. But when Millar took over it was straight to the bombast, with the Authority overthrowing real-world "baddies" and no look at the consequences. Basically, I thought it was trash.

With The Ultimates, Millar has moved to a more parodic vein. The same political viewpoint is informing things, but this time writing the super-team not as super-liberal-fascists but rather as government sponsored super-soldiers. And I think he's got rather a nice handle on it. I feel that I'm being made uncomfortable in all the right places.

Can't wait till vol II is out in TPB.
 
 
The Falcon
18:44 / 08.12.03
It's saturation-point US culture storylines here.

Which is quite grotesque.

But Humbert v. Cap? No way. Humbert is irredeemable. Cap ain't. Far from.

I do wish people'd stop assuming Cap is simply USA metonymy. Coincidentally, Nabokov hated it when folks did that with Lola/Humbert -> US/Europe.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
19:25 / 08.12.03
pathetically violent, antiquated, crazed fascists looking for a bad guy to beat up in the name of our "just cause," never mind that this just cause involves basically being the thug of a government...

I see what you're saying, I see what you're getting at, but where is this evidenced in the book itself? You all seem to be talking about what The Ultimates are capable of, but at what point has this team been the thug of Bush's government?

"Destroy the Alien invaders? But maybe we ought to negotiate with this murderous invasion force? No? Just blow them up and pummel them to death, as they ACTUALLY HAVE DONE TO US IN THE PAST? *Sigh*. Alright."

In fact, the administration seems just as surprised as anyone else when Alien Invaders appear in the sky and Fury, et al, in their orgy of destruction, are working on their own recognizance(sp?) to save the planet.

At what point were they looking for a fight so badly that they made one up themselves? If anything, I think you're describing X-Force.

it depends on what you consider to be its artistic merits. if you mean its artful ability to skewer the American obsession with a sort of buffed-up mediagenic muscular action heroism as a manifestation of something inherently fascist in the American character, than i'd say you're right. if you mean artistic value as a straight-up well-written conventional superhero book, well... i'm afraid the joke's on you.

Hurky-Durky-Dee, I'm a jackass for taking an incredibly well-done widescreen action book on the merits of an incredibly well-done widescreen action book. I just shat myself too.

If this team went around beating up people who in no way deserve it, I'd be completely with you. As of yet, the Ultimates have not done that. There has been no fascism, by definition, on display in any of the actions of the Ultimate team to date. If that behavior changes and The Ultimates start killing off mutants (as opposed to hiring them) and invading countries (as opposed to alien murderers), trust me, I'll change my tune awfully quick.

Again, I have trouble counting Bendis' take as what Millar's Ultimates are all about. Bendis' Ultimates are indeed everything you describe.

I think the brief sequence where the soldier knocks over the kid is a nice illustration of the rift between what the Ultimate team wants and what their government wants from them/is capable of/bases their motivations on.
 
 
diz
19:30 / 08.12.03
And could some one please explain to me once and for all how stopping a rampaging monster, stopping an alien race from annhilating the planet, or breaking a wife-beater's jaw is fascist.

let's look at this another way. you're looking at the world the Ultimates live in and seeing what they do as justifiable. however, you're not taking into account that the world doesn't just happen to be that way, the creators have made deliberate choices to depict the world in that way.

in the Ultimates, Cap is basically the lone hero in a world of wife-beating degenerates, wife-stealing friends, sinister alien conspiracies, weak-willed sexually impotent intellectuals, and subversive minorities with terroristic impulses. he is, as you say, "faced with quitters, disappointments, of all manner of people surrendering in one way or another" at every turn. in this context, he's the viscerally heroic, virile, masculine hero, standing heroically for his homeland against a tide of threats both external and internal.

as a result, you come to sympathize with him. you feel that what he's doing is necessary and appropriate, since he's basically carrying civilization on his shoulders. to a certain extent, you begin to share his contempt for weakness. the world is just full of threats which require constant vigilance, and so not only is what Cap does acceptable, to do anything else is an almost unthinkably weak betrayal of the duties of a citizen/hero. Cap, by contrast, though he may disturb the liberal intelligensia, is both a physical and a moral ideal.

the point is that this is a fascist narrative, perhaps the fascist narrative, the physically ideal male hero fighting the never-ending battle against moral laxity and the external enemies of the state.

saying that the Hulk or whatever are real threats, as opposed to the Nazis' paranoid imaginings, and that that fact justifies what happens, misses the point entirely. as far as the Nazis were concerned, the world really was infested with Jewish conspiracies and threatened by the Bolshevik hordes of the East, and liberal whiners only served to weaken the national resolve and dilute its virile moral virtue. the fact that the story is constructed in such a way as to make fascism seem logical, inevitable, and praiseworthy, is the point. it's about the seductive appeal of that sort of thinking, that sort of worldview, and how particularly susceptible to it Americans are.
 
 
diz
19:32 / 08.12.03
And could some one please explain to me once and for all how stopping a rampaging monster, stopping an alien race from annhilating the planet, or breaking a wife-beater's jaw is fascist.

let's look at this another way. you're looking at the world the Ultimates live in and seeing what they do as justifiable. however, you're not taking into account that the world doesn't just happen to be that way, the creators have made deliberate choices to depict the world in that way.

in the Ultimates, Cap is basically the lone hero in a world of wife-beating degenerates, wife-stealing friends, sinister alien conspiracies, weak-willed sexually impotent intellectuals, and subversive minorities with terroristic impulses. he is, as you say, "faced with quitters, disappointments, of all manner of people surrendering in one way or another" at every turn. in this context, he's the viscerally heroic, virile, masculine hero, standing heroically for his homeland against a tide of threats both external and internal.

as a result, you come to sympathize with him. you feel that what he's doing is necessary and appropriate, since he's basically carrying civilization on his shoulders. to a certain extent, you begin to share his contempt for weakness. the world is just full of threats which require constant vigilance, and so not only is what Cap does acceptable, to do anything else is an almost unthinkably weak betrayal of the duties of a citizen/hero. Cap, by contrast, though he may disturb the liberal intelligensia, is both a physical and a moral ideal.

the point is that this is a fascist narrative, perhaps the fascist narrative, the physically ideal male hero fighting the never-ending battle against moral laxity and the external enemies of the state.

saying that the Hulk or whatever are real threats, as opposed to the Nazis' paranoid imaginings, and that that fact justifies what happens, misses the point entirely. as far as the Nazis were concerned, the world really was infested with Jewish conspiracies and threatened by the Bolshevik hordes of the East, and liberal whiners only served to weaken the national resolve and dilute its virile moral virtue. the fact that the story is constructed in such a way as to make fascism seem logical, inevitable, and praiseworthy, is the point. it's about the seductive appeal of that sort of thinking, that sort of worldview, and how particularly susceptible to it Americans are.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
19:45 / 08.12.03
I get it! Wow. So, basically, I've just spent all this energy proving your point. A point which I now see is 100% valid.

I can't say I feel stupid, just...more smart. Thank you, Diz.

Barbelith really does work!
 
 
The Falcon
22:02 / 08.12.03
Calling it (possibly) 'the fascist narrative' is higher praise than I'd give, artistically.

Because w00t! art is not ethical, and narrative characters should really only be subjected to ethical analysis rather than criticism. Given that some people *might* not get it, which I don't for a moment doubt, there appears to be a reactionary response paralleling castigation of Marilyn Manson? Or Slayer, or whatever.

Albeit, on a vastly smaller scale. The Ultimates is like a miniscule, very dense, nodule of hypercorporate ('crap-')art. It's fascinating.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:47 / 08.12.03
It would be totally satisfying to see Ultimate Captain America badly beaten up. I think they really should do it.

Among other things, one of the things I've always hated about Captain America is how they always make him unrealistic difficult to beat - that's such nonsense. Thor or Colossus or the Hulk or Giant Man should be able to pop his little "patriotic" skull like a grape, and Wolverine should be able to slice him to ribbons, and the same should go for any number of villains. It'd be nice if just for once a writer acknowledged that for all the "super soldier" bullshit, he's just a regular human. At least half of all mutants should be able to kill the guy easy, given half the chance.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
22:49 / 08.12.03
Sorry, got a little carried away there. But seriously, I've hated Captain America since I was a tiny little kid. He's my least favorite superhero, easy.
 
 
CameronStewart
23:31 / 08.12.03
I love Barbelith for threads like this. So much more interesting and thoughtful discussion of this issue than the one over on, oh, say, Millarworld.
 
 
Mike-O
00:25 / 09.12.03
Fuck that man. I mean, sure, most mutants could take out Cap, based on powers alone, but the man has SKILL in addition to the physical enhancements, right? He was designed to take on a whole lotta shit and come out on top, so of course he's got it in him to fuck up a lot of the piss-ants that try to stir it up. He maybe be "patriotic" and maybe a tad overhyped and over his head on certain occasions, but I don't think that negates his ability to kick ass the lion's share of the time. Hulk is a big dumb idiot, and Cap nailed him right in the balls; TAKEN! Wolverine, yeah okay he's got the claws and the healing, so he'd come out on top always, but Cap would put up a good fight too, I think... he could prolly block a lot of the attacks Logan throws his way. BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH..... regardless, I guess you're not gonna stop hating him on my account, but I think Millar does a pretty good job with him at any rate. Booyaakaa.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
01:26 / 09.12.03
I got your back on that one, Mike. Steve Rogers has got the skill. He's Latrell Sprewell juking right past a lumbering Shaquille O'Neal. That's what I loved about him pummeling Hank Pym. It was all class. That's one thing that's fantastic about this book, combined with Hitch at the boards, you really get a keen visual sense that Giant Man doesn't have a clue what the fuck he's doing. I don't know anyone else who could really capture those kinds of intangibles in a realistic way. I mean, Quitely does it all the time, but it's much more, er, expressionistic?

I'm happy to have entered the who can beat who portion of this thread. Carry on.
 
 
Bed Head
02:30 / 09.12.03
Man, of course Captain America could beat up Giant Man. Hank Pym has been written as being a totally rubbish superhero since the start of this series, his primary motivation is proving he’s not the clueless loser he knows he really is. Ugh.

But - Cap wouldn’t have hunted him down and attacked him if he couldn’t beat him. You wouldn’t find Captain America attacking Thor, no matter what he’d done to deserve it. Cap’s number-one superhero skill is picking achievable targets. Which, yeah, makes him a nasty super-bully. I second the motion for him to get really badly beaten up sometime soon. In fact, I’d gleefully buy a mini-series in which Captain America gets hospitalised at the end of every episode: ‘Marvel Universe Beats Up Ultimate Captain America’, or something like that. 6 issues. Art by a Kubert.

Also. Didn’t like the France thing, for the simple reason it wasn’t funny. Surrender Monkey was funny. This just came across as witless.

Yet, a ‘copter full of hardnuts beating up Banner to make him turn into Hulk is funny. And the art’s great. Swings and roundabouts.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
03:08 / 09.12.03
I'm the opposite of Matthew. I've loved Cap since I was a little kid. He's always been my favorite. We could argue why most mutants should be able to beat him just like we could argue why most powered villians should be able to beat Batman. It's just Cap's thing, he doesn't lose. That seems to be the biggest similarity between Ultimate Cap and traditional Cap. When I was a small boy there was an issue where Cap stops a comic book stealing young man and sees that the boy has stolen Punisher and Wolverine comics. He says something like "With those role models, no wonder you're stealing".

On a nerdy side-note, Cap held his own against Wolverine in normal continuity, and owned him in Ultimates.
 
 
_Boboss
08:21 / 09.12.03
by cheating - hiding the fact that he's armed and then emptying the gun at him - well at least he's true to the imperatives of the army that learned him - this thread's brilliant - dizfactor has it dead - gonna have to get on this though:

A system of government [the sole security apparatus of a system of government] marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, [Fury, suspending the constitution on his own authority like it's nothing] stringent socioeconomic controls, [bush has given them bottomless black budgets. interestingly, when cap was being pumped full of rat drugs to make him help the french cowards without whom america would never have achieved independence, his current paymaster's family was still trading with the alien nazis] suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, [in Ult6 they closed down a TV company for making shows they didn't like] and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism [nothing racist or belligerent about declaring war on a group of mutant pacifists like the x men]

i'm lovin it. i mean i know it's just a comic and the action's fun - to be honest the fact I hate the characters so much speaks volumes for millar's skill and bravery as a writer. the ultimates is a very silly if useful mirror to hold up to present day america, and i'm glad it's about. i only really really enjoy it when cap gets the shit kicked out of him
 
 
Tom Coates
09:30 / 09.12.03
I always think they should portray him more as a soldier and an idealist than as the kind of super-hero he's normally looked at as. His fight with Giant Man was typical of this. Should be tactical, prepared, thorough and relentless. Angry, yeah - if that's what it takes, but more practically - DISCIPLINED.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
10:57 / 09.12.03
A system of government [the sole security apparatus of a system of government] The first leap is the hardest! Keep goin'! marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, [Fury, suspending the constitution on his own authority like it's nothing] Well, he is a general in the army. I don't think he subjugated anyone he didn't have authority over. He tried it with Thor though. stringent socioeconomic controls, [bush has given them bottomless black budgets. Isn't that the opposite of a control? The Ultimates are not the ones exerting control in that equation. Although, I'll admit that Thor holding Manhattan hostage until Bush doubled International Aid was by definition partially fascist interestingly, when cap was being pumped full of rat drugs to make him help the french cowards without whom america would never have achieved independence, Okay, but by that logic, as an American, I am also a slave trader. Just because some birds are blackbirds, doesn't mean all birds are black. his current paymaster's family was still trading with the alien nazis] You're probably right there. See: One of my myriad replies about my complete ignorance of world history or Weisshauptian Conspiracy Theories/Facts suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, [in Ult6 they closed down a TV company for making shows they didn't like] Really? That's fucked up. and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism [nothing racist or belligerent about declaring war on a group of mutant pacifists like the x men] Nothing belligerent or racist in wanting to bring in murder suspects for interrogation. They "declared war" on the X-Men the same way California Police "declared war" on Michael Jackson.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:04 / 09.12.03
See, I can appreciate Captain America's tactical strengths, but realistically, that shouldn't be enough to stop, say, Cyclops from blowing him up with his eyebeams, Magneto from stopping his blood flow, Professor X from shutting off his brain, or Storm from hitting him with a bolt of lightning from above, you know? And realistically, all Giant Man has to do is step on the little bastard.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:08 / 09.12.03
t's just Cap's thing, he doesn't lose.

But that's why Captain America comics, like the Matrix Reloaded, are so amazingly boring.

The X-Men are ridiculously powerful, yet almost always lose. That makes so much more sense to me. I'm a pessimist at heart.

I'm sorry for dragging this thread down into "______ Vs. _____, who would win?," I really do know better.
 
 
_Boboss
12:26 / 09.12.03
hope you're enjoying this as much as me ben

You really don't see the similarities between an autonomous and non-accountable security force that is capable of suspending laws when it chooses and 'a system of government'? what else can something that holds absolute and officially sanctioned power over a population be described as?

'well, he is a general in the army' so that's okay then? and not-fascist? round my way people don't let soldiers directly decide public policy, cos they're generally understood to be less than sufficiently endowed with skills that don't involve a-shootin and a-killin. however if those are the things a society prizes highest, hmm, yes i guess there wouldn't be a problem with that.

'I don't think he subjugated anyone he didn't have authority over.' there was the mutants in camp x-ray. shield black-ops soldiers ran a snatch on nightcrawler in germany, another sovereign nation's territory, not one [prob'ly] too supportive of 'the war on genetic terr'r' or whatever the M Ult U equivalent is. spidey 'you're mine when you're eighteen'; the indefinite imprisonment of the Ultimate six with no right to trial?

'isn't that the opposite of a stringent control' not for EVERYBODY ELSE, no.

'by that logic ... complete ignorance of world history' well, yes. most the slave traders were brits and africans, and the bush-nazi links, well, probably some stuff about it on t'internet if you look, but more the bush-nazi statement is just a good way of slagging the monster who stole the US' gub'mint from its population.

the TV company thing yeh it's fucked up. Ultimate six is far far better than Ultimate war, you'd like it fer sher.

and the x-men, well they weren't really murder suspects were they? hadn't charlie and the kids hadn't helped GW and Fury enough in the past to deserve the benefit of the doubt, perhaps a chat before declaring war? and what about all the other non-x affiliated mutes who were sent to 'camp x-factor' anyway?

over t'you, but i'll understand if you're growing bored of it now and can't be arsed replying.
 
 
fluid_state
13:27 / 09.12.03
The Captain's not a fascist, he's just following orders. I like to think he will be portrayed as an idealist, later down the line (maybe, say 6 issues/4 years down the line); There's hints of a discomfiture of sorts in Ult6, where he's asking Fury about the genesis of guys like the Green Goblin. Soon as his military discipline cracks, because the most tactically brilliant mind has to realize the futility of creating monsters, he won't be able to follow orders anymore. My best bet would be that he'll be used as an idealist versus the ideologues that sign his paycheck.
 
 
FinderWolf
14:13 / 09.12.03
>> Tony's heart condition

iirc, Millar has said he has no intentions of following up on this at all. as i understand it, Tony's not actually sick or dying in any way. Millar is basically writing it off as Tony making shit up on the fly to fuck with people's heads a bit and keep conversation spiky and interesting.

In an intereview in this month's WIZARD he sort of contradicted his earlier statement from months ago that he'd never refer to the heart condition again (and that Tony was lying), with the Black Widow story I mentioned. So I feel confident that my info. is more recent, but I know the comments you're referring to as well. Apparently his motivation for getting with the Black Widow, who will be revealed to have something like 5 dead husbands, will be motivated out of wanting to have one more great long-term romance in his life before he croaks, even though it seems like she kills everyone she marries. We'll see what happens when ULTIMATES Vol. II come out! Hopefully it'll be better than the last two issues.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
15:39 / 09.12.03
Khaol, I am thoroughly enjoying it.

I scanned through #6, I think you might be referring to something in 7 during the vigil.

And I think I see where the problem is, you're equating Weapon X with The Ultimates, which I do not. Nick Fury actually disbanded Weapon X, by force, if I recall correctly.

And again, the only public policy I've seen them decide is a strident "Don't Destroy The Population Of The Earth" policy.

'I don't think he subjugated anyone he didn't have authority over.' there was the mutants in camp x-ray. shield black-ops soldiers ran a snatch on nightcrawler in germany, another sovereign nation's territory, not one [prob'ly] too supportive of 'the war on genetic terr'r' or whatever the M Ult U equivalent is. Weapon X, not The Ultimates spidey 'you're mine when you're eighteen'; Bendis the indefinite imprisonment of the Ultimate six with no right to trial? Bendis

Like I said, I think Bendis has got it all wrong. I'm really just talking about Millar's portrayal here, as there are some irreconcilable differences at work between their takes on The Ultimates.

and the x-men, well they weren't really murder suspects were they? hadn't charlie and the kids hadn't helped GW and Fury enough in the past to deserve the benefit of the doubt, perhaps a chat before declaring war?

By letting Magneto live they were directly responsible for Magneto's reawakening and subsequent rampage. They, like our pal Bruce, got off extraordinarily light.

'isn't that the opposite of a stringent control' not for EVERYBODY ELSE, no.

I forgot what I was saying here but you're probably right.

You really don't see the similarities between an autonomous and non-accountable security force that is capable of suspending laws when it chooses and 'a system of government'? what else can something that holds absolute and officially sanctioned power over a population be described as?

Is a cop who pulls me over for speeding a government? If I was to pull a gun out on him, he would have every right to "suspend the law" and kill me in self defense. That's the only thing I've seen Millar's Ultimates do. Defend themselves or others. Mostly others. I mean, they're really really strong.
 
 
_Boboss
15:47 / 09.12.03
i think, actually, you'll find that they are in fact really really REALLY strong. so there.

and someone mentioned above the bit in ultimate 6 where cap was dismayed because the supersoldier program breeds monsters etc. good bit of characterology that i'd forgotten.

i think i may be spreading confusion through bad type, not distinguishing clearly between ish 6 of The Ultimates and Ultimate 6 the mini-series. and there's extra dissonance in the millar/bendis takes, is troo.

i just like watching the heroes getting beaten up and the baddies win. am i normal? am i nice?
 
  

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