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Underground > Comic Books >

The Ultimates #12

  
  

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Yotsuba & Benjamin!
19:34 / 05.12.03
So, what, no one's read this? No one's seen the t-shirt within its pages?

Jesus Christ, you could run a fucking Presidential Campaign off this comic, and with Bryan Hitch drawing it, I'd vote for it.

I think if Marvel had just the slightest shred of marketing sense, they would put every ounce of money they had into marketing the forthcoming hardcover collection of this book like an honest to god Summer Blockbuster (TV, Print, the whole nine) and they would eclipse DC so hard and so fast, literally overnight, that it wouldn't be fair.

This is a comic I could give to my father and he'd love it. My roommate? Love it. The people I work with? Love it.

Sure, it may not fly with the frau frau cognescenti, but it's probably the most accessible book on the racks. What's not to like? Let's take a look at it from the stand-point of your typical "Comics Are For Kids" Average Joe.

A) Thems comics got silly cartoon pictures.

Nope. I mean, honestly, Hitch's work on this book is terrifyingly good. Not only from a detail stand-point (I mean, it's obvious how good he is at drawing) but his story telling rhythms are out of control.

B) Dur, thems comics altso talk about fellers in tights and whut-not.

Paul Mounts has taken great (and awfully successful) strides at keeping any and all traces of day-glo pajamas out of the book, even Iron Mon's armor looks quite functional and sensible. The color scheme of the book is the antithesis of the four color days of yore.

There are tons of slags you can lay on the publishing schedule, but once this thing is out there in hardcover, it could/should/would completely decimate anything in print left senselessly in its path.

But, yes, back to the issue in question.

Just a relentless assault of awesomeness. I wish I was fifteen and reading this book. Can you imagine, tomorrow's comic book artists are biting off Hitch in their bedrooms right now with ballpoint pens. What they're going to be like when they're unleashed on the industry in ten years?

Man, this book is so. Good.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
19:42 / 05.12.03
Oh, this actually came out? I was starting to think that maybe it already came out, and I just hadn't seen it around because it sold out at Forbidden Planet. It's been months and months since the last issue, I can barely even remember where it left off.

I'll get it the next time I'm in a comic shop (um, maybe next week). I'm not sure if I can get so enthusiastic, especially given that a lot of the story so far had been a bit shaky. I'd like it to be good, though. Ultimates can be a pretty good comic when it wants to be, and I like Hitch's artwork.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
21:28 / 05.12.03
Yeah, it's been ages. I just started going through the rest of the run. It works much better as a whole, naturally. Anything with its schedule would. I'm surprised that the thing I'm liking the most is Millar's character work (which is why I'm much less keen on Ultimate Six as I was on Ultimate War). Tony Stark is looking to end up with one hell of an arc (as we all know how it will end up).
 
 
Mr Tricks
23:19 / 05.12.03
Yeah... it was good. not worth the wait though, after next issue (whenever that is) I'll probably wait 'till volume 2 is out as a trade.

it will certainly read much better collected. but it's still more art heavy and story light to me.
 
 
gergsnickle
00:25 / 06.12.03
Wow, I thought this was shocking bad. All those pages of Captain American and the other guy fighting amidst the flames, too many full page (or double page) images and not enough story. My only consolation was that this was the last issue of the volume, and then it wasn't. This issue could have been cut to half the length with nothing being lost. Get on with it already. Admittedly, some of this frustration come from having this story arc dragged out for so many months; it's not that engrossing - Independence Day with superheroes.
 
 
LDones
05:34 / 06.12.03
I think the enormously protracted period in which these scripts have been allowed to gestate is a problem.

I stand by the first six issues of The Ultimates as fantastic comic-book storytelling.

After that, it starts to go downhill, and a lot of more interesting, conservative portayals of events/characters go out the window. Captain America's France comment was really annoying, and the US military personnel suddenly behaving like enormous assholes is a dramatic shift in tone for the book - one that discredits it in abig way for me. I think Millar decided to appeal to who he perceived his audience was after the first 'arc', and it's been crap since Hawkeye, the Widow, Quicksilver and Wanda showed up (who then summarily disappeared with one line of explanation).

Millar's a wonderfully imaginitive guy - his early Authority work is really great, his Superman Adventures stuff was awesome - it bums me out when he seems to ape his own style for effect.

But I'm done with the Ultimates for the time being.

(Is it just me, or have the last 6 months of comics been extraordinarily oddly paced, with bizarro shifts in tone from previous issues/storylines? (from both Marvel AND DC)).
 
 
louisemichel
10:36 / 06.12.03
The comment on France was so out of character...
I'm not saying that because I'm french...

But Cap is a patriot, he is the flag, he stands for america, not against the other countries. That's a fucking big difference...
Maybe Millar is doing is best to run for governor if Bush Jr wins the next election in the US...
 
 
louisemichel
11:25 / 06.12.03
Oh, sorry, I forgot, this is not Cap, this is Ultimate Cap.
In the Ultimates, all the heroes are fucking republican assholes.
It's a little like the writers. Mark Millar is a fine writer. Guess what Ultimate Millar is...
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
12:16 / 06.12.03
Hate to play Republican's Advocate here (shudder), but if you follow Cap's thread all the way from issue one to the France comment, it makes perfect sense and is the perfect summation of his ethos and personality.

At every turn, Cap has been faced with quitters, disappointments, of all manner of people surrendering in one way or another. Hank Pym beating his wife. Janet quitting the team and standing by an abusive husband for years. His best friend marrying his fiance. The scientist who woke him from his coma turning into a murderous, rampaging monster. His old neighborhood swallowing his Frank Sinatra records whole.

And so, at the apex of his frustration and disappointment (he goes straight from delivering flowers and Coke [Coke! the masterstroke!] for Janet at the hospital to a Helicarrier and a battle with aliens who have been hiding in the bodies of Germans for centuries), I don't think it's wholly out of character for that man, finally on a bit of an upswing, to make that comment. Steve Rogers, just a few months off a three year stint in World War II, was just calling to mind the most handy example he could think of and that Kleiser could understand. "Do you think I'm Bruce Banner or Janet Pym or Hank Pym or those douchebags who stole my used copy of 'My Way'???" would've just went right over Kleiser's head, I think.

And Louise, Thor and Tony are hardly Republican assholes. For that matter, neither are the rest of the Ultimates. As a Democrat, I too have strong misgivings about an Alien race subjugating the human race, not to mention eradicating our entire solar system. Such attitudes strike me as fairly bi-partisan.

I see the Ultimates as a kind of secret service. No matter who's in the White House, Republican or Democrat, they're going to do the job they have to do. Heck, Nick Fury voted for Ralph Nader.

They are not carrying out an agenda, political or otherwise. When there's no super-threats, they sit around the Triskelion drinking coffee and talking about movies, not usurping governments the president has a beef with.

This is why I think the Ultimate War (and its fallout in Ultimate X-Men) was handled extremely well. Nick Fury simply wants to neutralize the threat of Magneto, not destroy all mutants, which many in the administration seem to be behind. And this is why I really loathe Bendis' take on the Ultimates in Ultimate Six. I think he completely misses the point and takes them in an extremely right wing direction (detaining prisoners without trial, et al). He writes a spectacular Spider-Man, but I don't think he really gets what Millar's trying to do at all.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
14:45 / 06.12.03
What makes you think that Ultimate Tony Stark isn't a conservative?

One of the things I like about the Ultimates is that Millar is honest about what The Avengers really would be like, and I agree with his take. Actually, sometimes it doesn't go far enough. If the Marvel Universe were real, there wouldn't really need to be Sentinels, because it would probably be the Avengers trying to murder the X-Men on the behalf of the US government.
 
 
louisemichel
22:20 / 06.12.03
"Do you think I'm Bruce Banner or Janet Pym or Hank Pym or those douchebags who stole my used copy of 'My Way'???" would've just went right over Kleiser's head, I think."

Yes, but "This A stands for America and we never surrender" should have made the point.
(or whatever the same kind of text... I don't write in english...)

Cap is a man of the 40's. Millar is writing him like a man of today.
And by the way, is there Tornados on US air Force bases ? thought it was a german/english plane...
Ok, I know, superheroes don't exist, so Tornados on a US base is not a problem. I beg to differ. It's a problem for the realism that makes the Superhero believable...
 
 
Imaginary Mongoose Solutions
02:12 / 07.12.03
Actually while I didn't like that "dou you think this stands for france" bit, it sounds like something my late WWII vet dad might of said.

We get so caught up in this "greatest generation" bullshit that we forget our parents and grandparents could have been patriotic assholes too.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
06:07 / 07.12.03
Ultimate Cap= Jesse Custer with a costume
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
09:40 / 07.12.03
"DAMN IT, GIANT MAN! WHY'D YOU LET ME DOWN SO BAD?"
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
12:39 / 07.12.03
You nailed it, Denfeld. They may as well give him an eyepatch right now...
 
 
KwendeCentral
13:51 / 07.12.03
Yeah, but I kinda stopped taking this series seriously after awhile. The delays REEEEALY hurt the readability of it. The France thing was sorta funny, sorta stupid. Like, it was good, until you thought about it. Then it just becomes unnecessary, and overtly "I-have-the-presidents-back-and-his-dick-in-my-mouth". I dunno...

As usual Hitch brings it strong-like-bull on the realism tip. The sad thing is that these two pair up like magic, yet often don’t produce quality issues. Banner's rampage through New York was beautifully rendered. They need to find whatever it was that produced THAT and do it again.

I'm gonna be done after the 1st volume though. It seems like he's TRYING to do all this 'widescreen' action, whereas in The Authority that was the kind of scale the story operated on.

I may be done with Millar when he's writing for either of the Big Two. When he's in that situation, it's like this guy gets off on yielding to the corporate will. I'm more interested in his Millarworld stuff.

Oh, and Thor was cool. REALLY cool.
 
 
The Natural Way
16:32 / 07.12.03
I'd hazard that the 'France' line is so over the top it has to be parody. I mean, Millar reserves an entire PAGE for that one. But whether or not all Millar's readers will spot the send up is debatable.... So not too sure how wise it is in the long run.

I think Stark's liberal sexual attitudes and good time boy persona suggest...well...that he's not that conservative, but the whole self-made, overachieving man-genius thing might point to a slightly right wing bent.

Oh, the issue? It was alright, but, yeah, the wait, the wait, the wait.... Not worth the wait.
 
 
invisible_al
17:15 / 07.12.03
Can I just speak up for the ending? Let's beat up Bruce Banner until we get the Hulk...not working? Ok chuck him out of the helicopter. Well it made me laugh, does that make me a bad person .
Thought the France comment we a bit off, specially with a full page reserved for it, but I quite liked the battle in the flames before it and Nick Fury getting to blow his budget on a 'Dodge This' moment.
 
 
CameronStewart
17:50 / 07.12.03
I don't quite understand the point of Nick Fury's special invisibility stealth suit - surely his enormous assault rifle, which remains perfectly visible, is a giveaway?
 
 
KwendeCentral
20:50 / 07.12.03
Touché Cameron. Touché.
 
 
The Falcon
22:53 / 07.12.03
Maybe it was invisible until it was up against the Nazi Alien's head.

This would honestly read miles better if I was prepared to wait a year and a half for trades.
 
 
matsya
01:04 / 08.12.03
I bought the first trade and thought it was okay, if a little bombastic, but what really bugged me was the - i don't know what the word would be for comics - direction? like at times the dialogue has literally nothing to do with what's being depicted, right down to the facial expressions? this doesn't happen all the time, but it felt a little rushed. like when giant man's transforming for the first time the dialogue and the in-panel actions don't quite synch up, which makes the art seem a little static and over-wrought.

i dunno.

i also don't think millar follows through very well. he comes up with an interesting idea, then doesn't do much with it, and compounds it with not-so-good ideas, like "the germans are aliens". why couldn't it have been the french? or the chinese? or the americans? making the third reich an alien conspiracy dilutes the horror of the war, i think.

anyway.

m.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
01:24 / 08.12.03
Actually, it's implied that the aliens aren't really behind the Nazis they were just piggybacking on their successes. Or perhaps it was vice versa. Either way, the aliens were not the great evil behind WWII.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
04:06 / 08.12.03
I do like the Ultimates. The wait's a little long, but the only thing I really eagerly await these days is New X-Men. I think the Ultimates is just a fun read with good art. Like an extended Avengers Elseworlds.
 
 
Tom Coates
10:21 / 08.12.03
The France thing REALLY pissed me off. I couldn't believe that anyone would be so insensitive as to slag a country off because another country managed to invade it, killing a number of its citizens in the process. France and the French felt pretty much raped by the whole thing, defeated and humiliated. That the representative of the country that sat by and let that happen until the last minute should be so violently unpleasant made me absolutely fucking insanely angry.
 
 
Tom Coates
10:26 / 08.12.03
Additional note - the Blitzkrieg meant that the Allies line broke in early 1940, forcing them back to Dunkirk. America joined the war in December 1941. So there's nearly two years of taking the piss and feeling superior while someone else's country burned before doing anything particularly useful. Great. Big prizes.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
11:02 / 08.12.03
Okay, the dude was frozen in ice long before WWII ended and the planet could afford to take nice historical longview of what happened, how it happened, and why it happened. Compounded with the emotional issues I outlined exhaustively above, I seriously doubt Steve was thinking that deeply (or strategically) about it.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
11:06 / 08.12.03
I agree with you Tom, but the attitude that Captain America has is one that has been pretty typical of certain Americans back then, and even now. It's disgusting how many Americans throw that "the French are cowards!" bullshit around without any thought to the actual historical context. But it happens all the time.

I haven't read the comic, but yeah, I'm pretty sure that would've bugged me too. I was annoyed by the whole "Nazis are aliens - like David Icke says!" nonsense to begin with.
 
 
_Boboss
11:47 / 08.12.03
i enjoyed watching fury and cap being beaten up by the alien nazi. it's a shame that the alien nazi won't win.

the french comment was indeed une grande merde du chien, but that's the prickishness we expect from ult.cap isn't it? when o when will ult.batroc step the hell up and kick the crypto-fascist cowboy back into the last century where he belongs?

'i thought thor was a pacifist man?' no, just a hippy hypocrite [is there any other kind?] with a hammer, no believable characteristics and a pathetically underdeveloped backstory.

i lied it enough y;'know, but overall, just bah! really. like watching american news channels, the same kind of sick feeling.
 
 
louisemichel
11:56 / 08.12.03
let's defend Mark on this one, nazis are not aliens.
The aliens were just piggybacking the nazis (as someone said).
I don't think it's so David Icky... The skrulls exist in the Marvel Universe since the beginning of it. These aliens are juste Ultimate Skrulls, nothing else.
And we saw the Ultimate Kree in Marvel Boy, even if Marvel Boy surely is not included in the Ultimate continuity anymore.
And about the death of Cap, he died in 44 or 45. That's not "long before WWII ended..."
The war was about over in July 44 (the americans didn't even want to go to Berlin, but the Russians forced them to...) and officially over in May 45.
 
 
Yotsuba & Benjamin!
12:43 / 08.12.03
It seems to me that you guys are glossing over hundreds of pages of characterization in order to hold up this populist viewpoint of a "Fascist Ultimate Captain America". He is, without a doubt, a pragmatist, but a fascist? Or, crypto-fascist? What's a crypto-fascist? A fascist who uses code? Or, um, a fascist who makes maps? No, that would be a carto-fascist.

I don't know, I'm clearly unschooled in the globo-political arena of 20th Century Warfare, so I'm just going by what's in the book (I agree that Bendis' Ultimate Weltunschung is more in line with this fascist take, but even that he can't decide on. First Nick Fury tells Pete his life is over at 18 and then, to facilitate a smoother cross-over later on, he has Fury backpedal, coming off like he doesn't even know what he was talking about).

And Louise, I don't doubt that I was severely wrong about the dates (see above), but I get the impression, from, you know, the book, that what American government wanted or didn't want to do in WWII was quite different from what Captain America thought was necessary. He has always been, at least in my mind, a symbol of what America stands for (Democracy, um. Some other stuff...), and not a faceless lackey of the American government.

He's a lot like Michael Moore in that respect. I suspect season two will have a distinctive, "Dude, Where's My Country" sentiment. Then again, we'll probably be seeing most of that sentiment in Morales' unleaded Captain America, already in progress.

And enough with this "worth the wait" bullshit. Go back and read E Is For Extinction. Doesn't the fact that parts two and three came out so far apart bug the hell out of you? Doesn't it just completely disrupt the flow of the story and undermine what Grant and Frank were trying to do? Ugh, I know. It's such a drag.

Wah. Wah.
 
 
louisemichel
13:09 / 08.12.03
yup, true enough.
But when E for extinction part 3 came out, it was a joy ! admit it !

Cameron, I so agree with you. And I fucking don't understand how his invisiblity capacity works. Bugs me a lot. Either a suit, ray, something is builded, either it isn't. If it is, there is no need to ask to override all budget restrictions.
When you use a A bomb, either you have it, either you don't. If you have it, it doesn't cost you a dime more to use it.

And to be tottaly honest, I always thought Captain America stood for all those things, Democracy, Freedom and so on. I know he is primarly a soldier, but I really think Ultimate Cap stands for Texas.
 
 
FinderWolf
13:22 / 08.12.03
Decent issue, kinda lackluster. Hitch's art is beautiful but Millar wrote pages and pages of 'cliche fight scene with villain,' complete with James Bond-esuqe "Shut up and die!" and Capt. Kirk "I! Have Had! Enough! Of You!" type shouting. I have to admit, I thought the France joke was funny in a politically-incorrect, shameful, South Park, Quentin Tarantino "oooh, that's so WRONG but I'm laughing my head off anyway" way. I also loved throwing Banner out of the plane to force him to Hulk out. Other than that, the issue was pretty weak. I agree with those here who've said the first 6 issues were great, dynamic and unique; the latter 6 have been pretty much weak and cliche.

Let's hope Millar gets his batteries recharged for ULTIMATES Vol. II, which will focus more on character and pick up all those plot threads left dangling (Tony's heart condition, is Thor really a God, the promised 'Tony romances the Black Widow who might really be a truly fatal femme fatale' story) - Millar has said Vol. II will feature shorter stories, several one-issue self contained stories and more character work.
 
 
_Boboss
15:31 / 08.12.03
crypto- just means the fascism is 'hidden', perhaps by a nice blue oufit that we associate from our kidhoods with decency and liberty.

[perhaps fascist isn't the best word to describe someone who takes it upon himself to break the law to dish out physical punishment to someone involved in a domestic dispute with his wife, but that's not the point. the point was to be inflammatory]

hundreds of pages of characterisation, hm 12 x 22= 264 pages, yeah i spose he might have been on as many of a hundred of them, but at least a dozen of those was just a repeat of that shot where he jumps over some jeeps and soldiers, so no, not buying your goods there either.

'what if superheroes were real?' they ask - moore asked it in watchmen and had the same answer in the characters of rorschach and ozymandias: 'they'd be the fucking baddies'
 
 
quinine92001
16:05 / 08.12.03
Maybe it is just me but who else thinks that Captain America speaks and acts out of both sides of his mouth? First of all I saw no need to kick Banner in the face when he was down. The Ultimates had defeated him and stopped his rampage so there was no need in my mind that good old symbol of America should have to do what he did. Wouldn't forgiveness be better? Okay let's say the boot to the jaw was justified-the Hulk did smash ,kill and try to rape the american population-Cap was just protecting his country. Now Cap gets pissed and kicks the shit out of Hank Pym-which hands down according to me was more than justified. Spousal abuse in any form is not justifiable. Hank need to have the shit kicked out of him for what he had done. Meanwhile Banner has been forced to drug himself and keep the Hulk in check in a prison of his own design-but what do Fury and Rogers condone? Beating the shit out of Banner until he turns into the Hulk, because the end justifies the means.I hope that Banner not only destorys the alien invaders but also kills the shitheads who were beating him up. Two wrongs do not make a right. Captain America is no hero. He is a bully disguised as a Weapon of Mass Destruction disguised as a Patriot. He needs to have the shit kicked out of him (possibly by one of his team members)once in awhile to keep him humble.
 
  

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