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Slavery and Owning Animals

 
  

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SMS
03:37 / 05.12.03
Most of us have come around to the view that one human owning another is one of the great evils of the world. But why is it evil? It's true that slaves were (and are) almost universally treated poorly; even a cursory description of conditions of slaves transported from Africa is enough to make some queasy. And slaves could be whipped and beaten by their owners if the owner had a whim to do it. But I don't think this is the principle that makes us think slavery is evil. If it were, then we shouldn't oppose slavery in principle, but we should only support certain rights for slaves. No slave shall be transported for commercial or other purposes over a distance of X miles where he is not allowed etc. Slave owners shall not be permitted to lash any slave over the age of 60 nor any slave under the age of 12 nor any slave exhibiting signs of ill health...

But these aren't the only rights we think human beings have. We think that human beings have the right not to be owned. In fact, most of us believe that beating up another human being once is so much less a transgression than owning another human being once that the two are hardly comparable.

Animal rights advocates have various opinions about various topics, but a standard argument asks what it is that makes hurting, killing, or testing on animals permissible when the same is not permissible with humans. The conclusion is that there is no morally significant difference between animals and people, or, if there is a difference, it is a very small difference.

Here I ask the same question about owning animals. I have a pet dog. It wouldn't be okay if I bought a person from a slave trader to give me companionship and be my friend, maybe fetch my slippers and get the morning paper. Yet this is my dog's purpose. I think of my dog more as part of the family than as property, but thinking of her as a part of the family does not negate the fact that she is property. If she tries to run away, I will put signs around the neighborhood offering a reward for her return. Some people have animals that do work for them, sled-dogs, horses, and barn cats.

One might say that animals aren't as intelligent as people, but I'm not sure why that matters. I can't think of any fundamental rights that apply to intelligent people and not to fools.

Most people don't think that animals have the same rights as people. Most people aren't vegetarians but refuse to eat people, for instance. But even these folks tend to think it is better that the animals are killed humanely. Most of us ignore the fact that they aren't. It isn't that I think that keeping chickens in such close quarters that they'd peck each other to death if they kept their beaks is okay. I just don't want to think about it while I'm eating my chicken sandwich.

This is not the case when it comes to owning animals. People encourage you to own animals. You ought to buy a dog. It's good for your immune system, it makes you happier, and so on. People brag about owning animals and no one bats an eye. It isn't that owning animals is considered a lesser evil than owning humans; it's that owning animals is considered good and virtuous and owning humans is considered a crime against humanity.

Any ideas?
 
 
Leap
08:30 / 05.12.03
It is human nature to put humans first; historically, the ones who did not do so, tended to get eaten.

Its human nature to put our friends and family first; historically, the ones who did not do so, tended to have weaker social support networks.

There is nothing wrong with, Geno-centrism and Nepotism respectively, they are perfectly normal parts of our make-up.
 
 
Quantum
09:05 / 05.12.03
Animals are not free in the same way we are, so their ownership is less of a restriction on them. Especially domesticated animals like dogs, cats etc. they are bred to be companions and they do very well in that role. And I don't agree with The conclusion is that there is no morally significant difference between animals and people, or, if there is a difference, it is a very small difference.
Faced with the moral dilemma of saving a dog's life or saving a person's life, almost everyone's going to save the person. Human life has more moral weight to us (admittedly this is just a long winded way of saying we are genocentric).

I see the human-animal relationship as more symbiotic than tyrranical. To a dog you are it's pack, to a human slave you are a master. No human should have a master, freedom is a right (privilege?) we are loathe to forego. Thus imprisonment as punishment.
 
 
Ariadne
10:57 / 05.12.03
I'm really torn on this one. I don't think we have the right to 'own' anothe creature, even if it's a cat or dog that benefits from the relationship. I do believe we shouldn't be treating animals as other and lesser beings - they have their own existence independent of us and we have no claim over them.

That said, if a dog or cat just happens to keep hanging around my home, and eating food that I put out, is that wrong? Perhaps it's a question of perception, of whether the animal is choosing to be my companion rather than belonging to me.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:10 / 05.12.03
I don't have a problem with ownership of animals. Or, at least, I don't think that we should get too hung up on language when there are far more important animal rights battles to fight (though I am interested if others disagree).

You see, while I don't think that anything humans do to animals is ok, I do think that the differences between humans and animals have an impact on their relationship. So it seems reasonable to me to have a pet who you provide food for and as long as certain minimal rights are respected. The term "ownership" in this context is quite different from the ownership of a slave and is more indicative of the responsibilities of the owner than the duties of the owned.

Of course, this breaks down if you have an animal that you work, though even then it isn't clear that ownership is equivalent to slavery. Are sheep dogs slaves? I don't think so, but again it'd be interesting to hear opposing views.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:57 / 05.12.03
I live with a cat called George. I don't think I own him anymore than my parents own me. If he wanted to he could walk away and never be seen. We'd file a missing persons report but nothing could be done to make him come back. We provide for him- food, shelter, warmth and he seems to like us. He's never run away, actually one of the cats who is dead now moved in from next door. You can't own a cat, they choose to stay or go, you can only attempt to imprison one by keeping it housebound. Frankly that's not going to work if a cat is desperate to escape.
 
 
Leap
12:27 / 05.12.03
A ‘Pet’ is also, typically, a very northern European (fluffy Victorian English?) concept that blurs the line between friend and not-friend. Many other cultures are not so sentimental (Hindus may hold cows as sacred but lambs are lunch! Spanish has different terms for body parts of humans (head, leg etc) and equivalent body parts of other animals……….and the concept of a pet as a family member is almost unknown!).
 
 
bitchiekittie
12:37 / 05.12.03
my housekept cat was desperate enough to escape - however, she came back. it was just to chase a bunny, and although she'd still love to get herself that bunny, she's not quite so eager to get at it.

at the risk of being far too simple - animals ARE different than people. their wants and needs are simpler - as others said, you provide them with basic necessities (food, shelter, exercise), they're happy. you're also providing them with benefits they wouldn't have without a caretaker - healthcare, population control, grooming, comfort. which sounds terribly trivial when you put it on the same level of human beings - but animals don't get hung up on concepts like pride, autonomy, potential, equality, respect.

I'm not saying my cats don't DESERVE respect et al, just that they aren't likely mulling over their horrible fate while lying atop your duvet in a bar of sunlight
 
 
Tom Coates
15:08 / 05.12.03
Look - the problem with this debate is that it rests on the idea of rights that exist outside humanity - rights which are imposed and evaluated somewhere else. These rights do not exist. The rights we have are there by accord and by some kind of social contract - a social contract that is also to an extent build upon biology.

Fundamentally you're right, there is no fundamental god-given difference between owning an animal and owning a person - both can feel pain, become emotionally or mentally damaged etc, and no doubt the practice of separating an animal from its parents before it gets too feral in order to encourage bonding with members of another species (and then neutering or spaying that animal) could be seen as quite horrific. But the fact that there might be a lack of difference in one particular realm (ie. that they're both alive) between two types of creature doesn't automatically suggest that both should be afforded the same kind and number of 'rights and responsibilities' (in the political sense) any more than that there should be an obvious disparity between them. Nor does it suggest that if there is a similarity in one area that the obvious position with regard to rights is to 'raise' them both to the standard that one considers normal. Two ludicrous cases to illustrate: making rights congruent on the basis of similarity could just as easily mean that human beings should be treated like cats than the other way around. And we have to be careful how many rights nad responsibilities we think are obviously congruent between species otherwise we'll haev to start attempting to imprison and rehabilitate any animal that kills another.

In a nutshell the problem here is that the argument is 'why do people feel that owning people is wrong but owning animals is fine?' and the answer is because there are no obvious fundamental extra-human morals, we make decisions on the basis of identifications with other people, political economies and social pacts and with an eye to what societal structures and ways of operating survive. Fundamentally, we don't make pets of our neighbours because then our neighbours could make pets of us. And we disapprove of other people making pets of their neighbours because we can understand how little we'd enjoy being pets ourselves.

None of this means that it is right or proper to keep animals as pets (or that it is wrong to keep humans as slaves) in any larger scale sense. It's just to try and articulate that appealing to those higher levels of morality for a debate like this is innappropriate. Instead this has to be a debate based upon argument, emotional appeals, expert opinion, how we relate to the experiences of our pets etc. Neither position is an obvious one (in the sense that neither position unfolds elegantly from available data), each is a position based upon the sand of instinctual and emotional response.
 
 
Lilly Nowhere Late
19:00 / 05.12.03
I am struck by a few thoughts, tho my thoughts are not well thought through.

Maybe having a pet is more like having an employee than a slave. A trade off relationship where the pet does its
bits and the human pays in food and shelter and hopefully love.
Maybe keeping a pet is more like keeping a lover. Though hopefully the lover gets more than a can of yukky food
and hopefully the pet does not have to have sex with the human. Or perhaps, keeping a lover is slavery.

hmmm. None of my pet dogs would ever leave me by their own volition. My current pet cat has to be forced outside
twice a day and tells me what todo and when to do it.

hmmmmmmmmm...
 
 
Mr Tricks
20:34 / 05.12.03
This is my dog petra:

Image removed

Just look at how happy she is. I plucked her from her mothers litter 7 years ago and appariently saved her life in doing so. It turned out that many of the other puppies as well as their mother where shot by hunters...

Aside from endless amounts of effection she makes a great car alarm on the occasion that I have to leave her in it (I specificly bought my car to properly fit her). and the same is true in protecting my home or my person if we're walking in a shadier part of town.

Mostly She's a whole lot of fun. A great frizbee catcher and fetcher. Id I mention that she'll collect firewood with me when camping, selecting a few choice logs for chewing letting me burn the rest. On her watch i've never encountered a bear.

She exsistance is somewhere between a child and an employee. Do to her upbringing I really don't have to worry about her "running off" she takes her guard duty very seriously. Still there are some interesting cross-species dynamics that every human must consider in relation to their animal.
I suspect I'm "owned" as much as I "own" this dog.

The lover aspect is interesting as on occasion Petra will certainly get jealous of my lover though the two of them are great friends as well and Petra is the mother of her dog...

meet Ziggee:
Image removed
3 years ago

Image removed

today . . . more or less
 
 
krylonuser
21:54 / 05.12.03
um, I just joined this board so excuse if I'm a little shell shocked by it all but-are there people who honestly don't see the difference between man and animal? Actually let me rephrase that. I know there are people like this, I just don't understand them. I don't think it's right to abuse animals but we 'eat' them don't we? Well, I eat them (carnivorous). I agree you can't own an animal in the true sense of the word "own" but you can have one as a pet whatever that means cause for some reason they like that. They'll stick around as long as you feed them and play with them so that's cool. What I don't get is how somebody could ever think owning a human is COOL? Excuse me- but I think the whole premise of this thread is pretty horrible. I think the fact that human slavery is wrong is self evident imo so thank god for that. But think about it, you wouldn't chain a dog up and whip it, or kill it if it tried to escape. So I think human slavery is dead wrong I thought most people understood that.
 
 
Mr Tricks
22:05 / 05.12.03
What about "willful" slavery... of the Bondage/Discipline variety?

perhaps that sort of Master/Servent relationship has a closer parrallel to Human/Pet.

Granted there may be a difference between a weekend spent as someone's BD slave and a lifetime spent as a pet dog. Then again there may be something there about time perception, and the human's capacity to set a time at some point in the future.

Would slavery be less... er, cruel if the slave could neither imagine a state of freedom nor a time in the future where one could/would be free?
 
 
SMS
05:39 / 06.12.03
krylonuser, Yes, the board, on average, is radical.

Would slavery be less... er, cruel if the slave could neither imagine a state of freedom nor a time in the future where one could/would be free?

I think this idea has promise, because you can apply it to the way human beings actually live. We are by no means completely free. I cannot fly like Superman or make the sky turn green just by thinking about it. Yet my lack of freedom in these areas causes me vert little strife. Feeling that an injustice is being done usually requires the possibility that justice is possible. (I leave open the possibility of moral dilemmas as an exception, because it doesn't seem to apply to the matter of slavery). So it's likely owned animals have no sense of injustice, which may relieve us of any moral duties concerning it. I can see one possible objection, which is that the animals' ignorance of its mistreatment does not negate the mistreatment. The example used for this objection would be to imagine owning a slave but keeping him wholly ignorant of the possibility of a free life. The pain of slavery for him would never manifest, but many of us would feel that owning the slave in this manner is still a terrible wrong. I'm not too sure I would buy that objection. What do you think?

But think about it, you wouldn't chain a dog up and whip it, or kill it if it tried to escape.

I'd probably chain it up. I wouldn't get out my whip, but I might get out a newspaper.

Human slavery is dead wrong I thought most people understood that.

Yes, the abolishonists were supposed to have won their case. In a way, successfully defending a claim requires first allowing yourself to be skeptical about it in the first place. Otherwise, you don't know what aspect of it needs defending. That's one way of looking at "self-evidently true." You can't even begin to doubt its truth. If you're right about the self-evidence that human slavery is wrong, then Tom is wrong to suggest that the obvious position with regard to rights is [not] to 'raise' them both to the standard that one considers normal, at least insofar as it concerns slavery.
 
 
Loomis
07:19 / 06.12.03
Okay, this is where Loomis gets the shits.

As usual, I am rather irritated by Barbelith’s poor record on animal rights. "That’s the way things are" is not an excuse for anything. If we can interrogate whiteness, maleness, straightness and every other traditional norm and conclude that there is no inherent reason why any of these things should be privileged, then why are so many supposed lefty liberal types unable to interrogate speciesism? While I don’t expect the world to go vege, I am at the very least concerned by the apparent inability on Barbelith to analyze animal rights with anything approaching the rigour of the other analyses that have graced the pages of the headshop. How many pages did that thread go on for about the correct usage of the word "cunt"? And yet it’s okay to use animals however we want, because that’s what we’ve always done, and there are worse things out there.

I'm a little unsure as to whether the comparison with slavery is helpful as I think that it may alienate people who rightly point out that humans and animals are different and most likely have different mental experiences of captivity. But human rights and animal rights are not mutually exclusive. If there is a hierarchy then I would choose humans over animals. I don’t say that they are equal, but how do you make the leap from that proposition to giving us the right to do whatever we like to animals? Why are we unable to interrogate speciesism?

I'd like to thank SMS for a very interesting and well thought-out initial post. And it seems to me that this thread has descended into emotional "but my cat loves me" posts. SMS is intelligent enough to admit that he sees what is wrong with chicken farming, even though he continues to eat chicken. But people are so loath to admit that there might be anything wrong with pet ownership, because their dog wags its tail at them and "appears" to be happy.

Now I grew up with pets, and I love animals and love being around them. Obviously most pet owners love their pets and I'm not saying that they should be equated with people who shove fireworks up the arses of kittens for fun. But this is the headshop and we're talking about the concept of pet ownership; not how much you love your pet.

Now firstly, to address the fallacy that animals choose to be pets:

To take Tryphena's post about how her cat has the choice to leave her. Bullshit, plain and simple. If you spent your entire life in someone's living room, got fed twice a day and had a litter tray to shit in, what meaningful choice to you have to go anywhere else? Do you know how to hunt? Do you even know what to hunt? Do you know where to shit, where to sleep, how to talk to other animals? You have no meaningful option but to stay where you are. I could say that human slaves had the option to escape, but how many did so during the long years of legal slavery? Do you think the fact that they stayed meant that they had no desire to be free?

And secondly, to address the ethics of breeding animals for our pleasure:

Let's look at it like this. Imagine that there was no such thing as pet ownership. Then I came along and said that I was going to catch some wild dogs that lived in the bush, and breed them together and selectively continue to breed them in order to produce fluffy dogs with short legs because I thought they were cute, ignoring the health problems that would be caused by such unnatural preferences (and we all know the serious health problems associated with many pure breeds). And all for no other reason than that I thought they were cute. I would hope that people would be against this proposal. But this is what has happened. Obviously it's somewhat complicated in that this is the situation we have inherited and we weren't the ones that created it. But it seems fairly straightforward to me that there is something ethically wrong with the concept of genetically modifying animals for our own pleasure. Saying that your dog appears to love you does not negate that. I have loved my pets in the past too. But that does not mean that the concept of breeding animals in order to amuse ourselves has any ethical justification.

In terms of using pets for work, I am a little unsure. I believe that it is wrong to use animals if there is an alternative, and obviously in the past there was not an alternative for most humans living off the land. I would like to think that as technology advances we will have less and less need for animals, both as workers and as food. But choosing to breed animals for the sole purpose of lying around our house and giving us the love that it has no choice in giving simply because of the fact hat it has never know anything else, is seriously problematic. Again, I am not condemning animal lovers, nor am I promising never to own one myself. I am simply expecting Barbelith posters to be able to interrogate the assumptions that we have inherited, notwithstanding the fact that you may love your pet.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:48 / 06.12.03
Do you know how to hunt? Do you even know what to hunt? Do you know where to shit, where to sleep, how to talk to other animals?

In answer to your questions about my cat you are referring to an animal that caused me to walk in to a house filled with 100 alive butterflies. He'd brought them in one by one in his mouth throughout the day. Yes he can hunt. I've seen him forward flip in the air and bring a bird down out of the sky while doing it. When we had a cat flap my mum would put the lock across it and he would somehow open the cat flap anyway and get inside the house. A woman called him ugly once and he slapped her around the face, we decided her tone of voice must have pissed him off because I'm sure George can't understand what we're saying (you probably think I'm making this up but you'd be wrong). He has been lonely since the other cats died, wouldn't sleep on the boiler for a year because it was their place. My cat is a person like any other and he has a character and he would never accept what he felt was mistreatment, he's far too obstinate. So Loomis, excuse me if I think you're wrong.

I have to confess that I would never own a pet but because of my own attitude to responsibility rather than a belief that animals are enslaved. I couldn't stand a pet who was brainless enough to do whatever I told it to do.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:03 / 07.12.03
Mod hat: would anyone mind if I proposed the removal of the cute animal pictures from this thread? I don't see what they are addding to the thread apart from length.
 
 
krylonuser
02:55 / 08.12.03
Mod hat: would anyone mind if I proposed the removal of the cute animal pictures from this thread? I don't see what they are addding to the thread apart from length.

Why? Do you just need something to do? Do the pictures increase the bandwidth on the server? I think they are cute. lol
 
 
Leap
06:17 / 08.12.03
If a picture is worth a 1000 words, surely they are keeping the board shorter?
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
06:19 / 08.12.03
It's precisely that they are cute. They add nothing to the discussion, and are attempting to distract from the point in a manner entirely inappropriate to the Head Shop.

What the cute animal pics do do, but can do without actually being there, is demonstrate Loomis' argument that "but look how happy my dog is" is not necessarily a complete counterargument to the idea that the possession of animals is exploitative.

What's our clear differentiation between humans and animals here? My instinctive response is that animals are not able either to reason or to explain how they feel about being owned. In the case of owning food animals, work animals and pets, the basic transaction appears to be the same - the animals are kept and fed, and in exchange provide something, be it food, work or companionship.

Question one might be whether that is a good bargain - food animals might, where they able, argue that they would rather see whether they could feed themselves in exchnage for avoidance of the slaughterhouse. The work dog might complain that if it were not for the uncontrolled spread of humanity it would be more than able to wander the hills and fields without needing to herd sheep and then eat dogfood, but rather cut out the middle man and eat the sheep. And the pet? Well, tricky one. I'm not sure whether that is exploitation, symbiosis or parasitism. Possibly it varies from case to case.

As a starting point, it seems traditional to assume that animals have emotions of some sort, and demonstrably have some sort of memory and stimulus response. However, they are not generally credited with ratiocination, that is cannot conceive a clear understanding of their situation or a rational response to it.

Does that mean that as long as the animal is cared for, fed, kept clean and so on that we can basically assume that, as reasoning beings, humans are better equipped to work out what to do with them? Or that the ownership situations described above are interfering with the animals' expression of "animalness", for want of a better term?
 
 
Quantum
09:23 / 08.12.03
If a picture is worth a thousand words each pet pic is like saying 'Ooh look a cute pet' two hundred times. Not a clinching argument for animal ownership IMO.

These rights do not exist. The rights we have are there by accord and by some kind of social contract Tom
My understanding of rights is that they correspond to other's duties- my right to life is, by dint of our social contract, your responsibility not to kill me. Our responsibilities thus confer rights on others.
So our responsibility to not be cruel to animals effectively gives them the right not to be abused. It may be culturally dependant (i.e. peculiarly English and by extension American, Australian etc), it may be transient (in a few decades pets may be thought of as food) but at the moment, here, there are animal rights.
Apologies if your point was that there are no objective 'rights', I agree. But the rights of animals are of the same nature as the rights of humans i.e. derived from our 'civilised' behaviour.

Less abstractly I agree with Tryphena on cats, you can't own them, you have to seduce them with affection and food, and be nice to them to keep them happy or they'll leave you. Like people.
 
 
Ariadne
09:53 / 08.12.03
you can't own them, you have to seduce them with affection and food, and be nice to them to keep them happy or they'll leave you. Like people.

Isn't that rather the point of the thread, that they can't leave because they're not in a position to survive (or certainly not thrive) if they do? As was the case for many human slaves.

To question the 'use' of animals as pets is a bit of a mindshift from how we normally consider animals and their relationship to us. But this is the head shop, we can do it!

I have absolutely no doubt that people love their horses, their goldfish, whatever. But that doesn't really answer the question.
 
 
Leap
14:03 / 08.12.03
If you start by being a decent person in general, can you go far wrong regardless of what you end up actually doing?
 
 
Ariadne
14:20 / 08.12.03
Is that a serious question? I'm not sure I understand what you mean, Leap. If you're a 'decent' person -- by whose standards? -- then you're proposing you can do anything you like?
 
 
Leap
14:33 / 08.12.03
That’s part of the problem here Ariadne, too much of what is said is dissected so much….. Far too Clintonesque…..

The simple point is that if you treat people with respect and forbearance you will probably be doing the “right” thing towards other animals, regardless of the exact detail of that behaviour.
 
 
Ariadne
14:44 / 08.12.03
But then you're missing the point of the whole thread, Leap. Which is that perhaps, though we think we're doing the right and decent thing, perhaps it's actually not the case. That's what the thread is *about* -- trying to look at the situation afresh.
 
 
Linus Dunce
14:50 / 08.12.03
my right to life is, by dint of our social contract, your responsibility not to kill me.

No, that's not it at all. Your right to life is conditional on you not killing me.

Human slaves, no matter what, have the potential to take part in this and the broader social contract, thus they should be released from slavery and allowed to do so. I do not see how a dog, cow, anaconda or pirhana fish could sensibly be described as having the same potential. I very much doubt that even higher primates have the sense of responsibility necessary to gain rights. I'd be very interested to hear why they do, and if so, why they should not in turn be tried for the murder and sexual assault etc. that seems to be part of their daily lives.

Animals' lack of rights and responsibilities though does not mean they cannot suffer. This is why many human beings try not to make them suffer beyond what is necessary for our own good. Again, what animal is capable of this distinction? Apes will eat other apes alive, and any cat lover knows deep down why we cannot give animals leave to do what they "will."
 
 
Ariadne
14:59 / 08.12.03
I very much doubt that even higher primates have the sense of responsibility necessary to gain rights

Well, just for the sake of argument, what about people with serious learning disabilities. Do they have no rights, if they have no sense of responsibility?

I don't think anyone is asking that cats be tried for assault or for the murder of birds, just looking at whether we, as perhaps more intelligent beings, have the right to use them for our own purposes.
 
 
Leap
15:07 / 08.12.03
I understand what you mean Ariadne, my point is that you don’t tend to reach a moral meaning by word dissection. Morality is about relationships and cannot be applied to specific isolated acts in any meaningful way.
 
 
Linus Dunce
15:09 / 08.12.03
Well, just for the sake of argument, what about people with serious learning disabilities. Do they have no rights, if they have no sense of responsibility?

We do not explicitly say they have no rights, because that is offensive (again, this probably wouldn't be an issue for an animal, even if it could speak). However, we often do not allow them for example to vote or own property, do not put them in jail if they do wrong, and sometimes lock them up "for their own good."
 
 
Quantum
15:14 / 08.12.03
My point was not that animals could take part in a social contract (they can't) but that they can have rights without taking part in it. If we had a responsibility not to harm rocks, they would have a right not to be harmed.
Ariadne pre-empted my point on those with diminished responsibility. A coma victim or encephalic child (or indeed a baby) can't take part in societal contracts but they still have rights.
 
 
Linus Dunce
15:20 / 08.12.03
If we had a responsibility not to harm rocks, they would have a right not to be harmed.

Absolutely not. Rocks will never have rights. You can take away the rights of humans to break, deface or move rocks, but the rocks themselves will never have rights.
 
 
Ex
15:26 / 08.12.03
I very much doubt that even higher primates have the sense of responsibility necessary to gain rights. I'd be very interested to hear why they do, and if so, why they should not in turn be tried for the murder and sexual assault etc. that seems to be part of their daily lives.

We do, in many cases, hold animals responsible for violating a social contract (but only usually against human,s rather than against each other). But this doesn't usually take place within a framework of rights/freedoms/responsibilities: this police dog is explicitly compared to a car or other piece of equipment. He is being put down because he is dangerous and 'faulty', and will be functionally useless from now on in his job, not because he's violated someone's rights and should pay a predetermined penalty.

I'm interested how one would formulate a system of rights for animals not only without the animals having responsibilities, but also without the most basic 'right to life' which underpins human rights. If death is seen as the ultimate rights violation, and we don't have universal agreement that animals have a right to life, how are we to judge their other rights accordingly? Should one try to institute world vegetarianism, or work at the goal of preventing cruelty within a system which acknowledges our fondness for eating animals?
These are first thoughts - will think further and return.
 
 
distractile
16:09 / 08.12.03
Long post and maybe the conversation has moved on. If so, apologies.

I had my house rabbit spayed a couple of weeks ago, for two main reasons. The first was essentially convenience. Unspayed rabbits tend to be frustrated and destructive. The second was health. Unspayed does are extremely prone to uterine and ovarian cancers, which shorten their expected lifespans by a factor of five. I have largely convinced myself that the spaying was justified by concern for her health, rather than my convenience. Had she in fact been a male, I'm not sure I would have done it.

But it wasn't a two-dimensional choice. Domestic rabbits are frustrated and destructive because they are typically denied companionship by human choice. They are prone to cancer because they were bred to mate constantly by the Romans, who introduced them to the UK as food animals. So my duty of care, if it can be called that, is shaped not only by my decision to keep my rabbit as a pet (and thus deny her a "natural" life) but by human actions stretching back hundreds of years. And it's easy to pursue the "if she was wild ..." alternatives through many more iterations.

I offer this example because I think Tom is right to say that the principles of this argument are difficult to frame in the absence of an externally-imposed moral framework. The whole issue is compromised by millennia of animal-human interaction that make it difficult to achieve moral clarity even in the atomic system of one owner and one pet. I hadn't imagined, when I got my rabbit, that I'd feel so conflicted about the choices I make on her behalf, or that I wouldn't be able to resolve my doubts relatively quickly.

So while I somewhat share Loomis' frustration I'm not sure it's the board's reponse that's lacking, but rather that the issue is intractably complex already. Loomis says there's something ethically wrong with genetically modifying animals for our own pleasure. That may be true, but I'm not sure that this is a major issue today (as distinct from modifying animals for agricultural purposes, which obviously is). Or to put it another way, that perhaps the morality of pet ownership can fairly be discussed independently of the morality of domestication.

"Pet" or "livestock" seem, to me, to be labels whose definition inherently implies a level of animal-human symbiosis and are both exclusive and well-defined categories that resist significant changes. Exotics and show breeds notwithstanding, parameter changes in the terms of our relationships with animals - a tiger in a New York apartment, say, or dogs fattened up for the pot - are generally viewed unforgivingly. How many people thought that Roy was probably asking for it when Montecore jumped him?

That said, I find it disturbing that I can't find any moral clarity when it comes to my pet, or to the general phenomenon of pet ownership. As Quantum said, rights correspond to duties. My bottom-line morality is that I believe I have a duty to do no harm to anyone (or thing) without its informed consent, but how to judge "harm" or "consent" in the case of an animal that can't reliably communicate with me on either topic?

Mr Tricks asked if slavery would be less cruel if the slave could neither imagine a state of freedom nor a time in the future where one could or would be free. The assumption is that animals do not have such imaginings. Certainly, my rabbit can't articulate her desire for freedom as I can. But perhaps her programmatic urge to reproduce is just as meaningful as a slave's despair at hir captivity. It's certainly powerful enough to make her destroy large chunks of my carpet in a futile attempt at - at what? I can speculate, but I don't really know. Is it a protest? An escape attempt? An error of judgment?

Despite our tendency to adopt anthromorphic interpretations of our pets' behaviour, I think the internal lives of animals are almost completely alien to us. In the absence of any real idea about an animal's internal response to domestication - of how the slave feels about captivity - the muddled middle ground is the only real option for those who don't wish to adopt one of the polar stances on animal rights:

On the one hand, our "top predator" status suggests that it's only natural that we do whatever we like with other animals, as codified into dogma, theological or otherwise, that postulates mankind as a separate or higher creation, charged with both ownership of and responsibility for other lesser species. Many of us no longer believe that this privileged position really exists, or that it equates to "do whatever you like".

On the other hand, we have sentimental arguments that the wants and needs of animals can be simply equated to those of people. As Tom pointed out, a similarity in two situations does not equate to a similarity in rights. I would add that it isn't clear that there's a similarity in situations in the first place. We have no real way of knowing how an animal interprets any but the most obviously distressing of situations. Perhaps not even those.

Pet ownership seems to fall somewhere between the two. We assume, to paraphrase Haus, that we, as reasoning beings, are better equipped to make decisions for our pets than they are themselves. But we also believe that our pets appreciate and respond to many of the same stimuli as humans. I believe that my spayed rabbit would prefer a longer, more sedate life over a shorter and more sexually-crazed one. But I can't really tell.

To loop back to slavery: I think it's interesting that the "top predator" argument could equally be applied (with the relevant changes in wording) to the invidious rationalisations given for slavery, indentured labour and servitude in general. Animals today are the Other, just as Africans, Orientals, Indians, women, the working classes ... have been to various people at various times. Servitude has often been "justified" by theories of manifest destiny, evolutionary or social superiority.

The challenge confronting animal liberationists - or those trying to answer the initial post in this thread - is how to create an alternative perspective without lapsing into anthromorphism. Or one that argues that they have rights despite their inability to enter into social contracts - in which case it seems inevitable that the default position shifts back to "we know best", as it does for the severely learning-disabled. Otherwise, it seems to me, we're stuck with messy compromise, perhaps for ever - or at least until my rabbit learns to pass the Turing test.

And on the subject of the Turing test, we could extend the debate by asking: what should the rights of enslaved robots be? It's become a techo-utopian axiom that robots will one day take over most drudge-work, and an equally hackneyed science fiction theme that they will in turn rise up and throw off their shackles. Do workers that have explicitly been created to serve have rights, or do we have duties towards them? Does it make a difference if they are dumb droids or brilliant machines? Would it be right or wrong for us to keep them as slaves?
 
 
Lurid Archive
16:43 / 08.12.03
Perhaps the question partly a semantic one as Ignatius J would argue that the mentally impaired do not have rights. I'm not sure its worth arguing the point but when I say "rights", I mean the moral and possibly legal obligations that we have to another being.


OK, there is a broad argument here against animal rights on the grounds that animals cannot reason, are not morally culpable and are disempowered (so that there is no reciprocity of rights).

It seems to me that this begs the question as well as implicitly assuming a kind of universal agreement about human rights that I don't think is historically supported.

For a start, the whole idea of reciprocity and empowerment seems morally dubious to me. The point of rights, as far as I can see, is to protect the disempowered. Now, one might argue that a black slave is only disempowered in a historically specific way. So what? Once one says that rights cannot be conferred without responsibilities, it requires one to entertain a hypothetical to extend those rights to the disempowered. But why should one make that connection?

The argument seems to be one of potential. Humans, no matter what their colour, say, have similar capabilities. Does that mean that it would be ok to keep a human slave if you disagree with the proposition? Is it alright to deny human rights to those people you think of as less than human? And what about the mentally impaired? For the argument to extend to them, one has to imagine their potential as existing as some kind of probabilistic entity. But I find it hard to agree that the only reason we grant rights to the mentally disabled is because they could have been different in an alternate universe.

There are other arguments against animal rights. The naturalistic one -which works just as well for race or nationality. The argument that rights are demeaned by their extension - I don't really understand that one, as it seems patently false. The argument that animals cannot be held accountable for crimes, for instance, and therefore cannot be granted rights. Which seems to assume that it has to be either total equivalence of rights or nothing. Seems spurious, to me.

It appears to me that the arguments being put forth against animal rights is a kind of universal one against the extension of rights in any circumstance. Personally, though it is far from exact, I tend to imagine rights as stemming from empathy. To be more precise, one notices similarity and refrains from harm on the grounds that one wouldn't enjoy being harmed (the similarity allows the extension to another).

Obviously, differences between species mean that there will be differences in rights. I'm not saying that animals should be allowed to marry and own property. But a reasonable set of protections from unnecessary harm would be a good start and I'd probably take it further.

That said, its not clear to me that keeping a dog as a pet is any kind of infrigement. I'm willing to be convinced eiher way, but isn't there an argument that dogs have been bred to have a close relationship with humans? I seem to remember some theory about mutual dependence. I'll try and remember.
 
  

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