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Englishness

 
  

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Saveloy
13:09 / 05.12.03
Bed Head>

Well, I think we know it doesn't exist except as a concept - I think Kit-Cat Club nailed that, when she said:

"I think it is possible to think of Englishness without necessarily attaching oneself to those ideas, and without thinking that to be English one must necessarily be/use/ascribe to those things."

There will be as many different but identifiable forms of Englishness as there are periods within English history were an identifiable culture, or cultures held sway. When things - such as china teacups, football hooliganism etc - become common or big enough to lodge in peoples memories, to appear in stories, the media etc, then they become part of the culture of that time and are up for being included in a model of Englishness.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:12 / 05.12.03
"You're not patriotic in a 'sending people home' way?" I asked.
"Only home for tea..."


Simply marvellous.
 
 
Saveloy
13:12 / 05.12.03
addendum to previous post:

...so it's quite possible for 'englishness' to exist, even if no one in the world actually fits the template.
 
 
Saveloy
13:21 / 05.12.03
Quantum, on spread of English:

"I suspect it's because we colonised the most closely followed by the Spanish and Portugese."

That programme I mentioned was all about the deliberate policy of encouraging English speaking throughout the world, by the British through the 30s and 40s (via special schools, film and radio), and the Americans in the 50s and 60s (via "The Voice of America" radio station). Partly to enable the spread of propaganda, partly to ease communication between the ruling classes in countries where we had a presence. I think that was the gist of it, anyway. It was very interesting, I wish I'd paid more attention to it and could add something more valuable here than "I saw a program about this, and it was good."
 
 
Whisky Priestess
14:18 / 05.12.03
And actually, what's wrong with having English as the global lingua franca in the same way that Latin used to be? It's a language that takes a few months to learn and a lifetime to master, it's spoken by the most powerful nation on earth and pretty much anyone who speaks it in addition to their native language is instantly more employable. Mandarin may be spoken by the largest number of people but duh, they're all in China: it's not a big export.

I'm not saying English ought to stamp out and replace the thrilling variety of world tongues, but something has to be the language of the world, and why not English? I happen to consider it fascinating and beautiful and the best language to be born speaking (if only for its utility, let alone its literature and expressiveness), but then I studied it for years and so I'm biased.

Tryphena "hates the idea of Englishness almost as much as that of whiteness". What does this mean? What about it do you hate, Tryph? Do other people feel the same way and if so, why? I always think it's very unproductive to hate what you are, especially if you can't change it. Call me a scone-scoffing National Frontierswoman if you like, but despite its faults, I like England and being English and the fact that we've got an amazingly rich history and literature and social fabric and countryside sort of appeals to me.

Now I'm off to colonise some African countries, get spanked, read Dickens, drink tea while being repressed about sex and tell jokes about the Irish.
 
 
higuita
14:19 / 05.12.03
Bed head - You really want national identity? Then think of yourself as British

What? Us and the Scottish and Welsh? Are you joking?

bh - But that’s not some innate quality, and when you leave you become something else.

In a lot of cases, I'd suggest that it frequently amplifies what you were. Look at ex-pats - Aussie, Irish, English - all of them seem to have their national identity turned up to 11. For example, I always insist on taking an umbrella on holiday, putting my towel over sleeping Germans and stealing natural resources [normally cheese]
 
 
fussycat
14:41 / 05.12.03
If you ask my foreigner's opinion, when I first moved to England things that struck me as a mild culture shock were people saying a lot of "alright luv", "yes please" and "sorry", drinking tea with milk, girls being very negligent about their clothes/appearance (compared to where I come from), my housemates buying Tescos own brand food for it being so cheap despite that it tastes horrible, and... I don't really want to talk about prejudices against foreigners (how many times have I been called a dodgy Eastern European?). Now after 3 years the politeness and different style in clothes has become a norm to me, I suppose I'm turning British.
 
 
higuita
14:43 / 05.12.03
this appeared while I was writing my post and I feel moved...
Whisky Priestess - Now I'm off to colonise some African countries, get spanked, read Dickens, drink tea while being repressed about sex and tell jokes about the Irish.

Apart from the colonising bit, which I assume to be some form of irrigation [slaps thigh] what's wrong with any of the above? Eh? Sounds like a good afternoon to me.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
15:04 / 05.12.03
"Now I'm off to colonise some African countries, get spanked, read Dickens, drink tea while being repressed about sex and tell jokes about the Irish"

we won't see her for a while then.

Fascinating thread. Things I think of as archetypally english, some of which i relate to, some not:

tea, cricket, morrissey, alan bennett, jungle, acid house, 'baggy', Lily Savage/TWA(very english in comparison to, say, RuPaul) emotional/sexual repression/retardation, public schools being places that cost money, football being a very male culture (something i really don't like, and that isn't reflected in alot of other football-mad countries), banging on about 1966, conservative mps in pervy sex 'scandals', bhaji on the beach...
 
 
Bed Head
15:15 / 05.12.03
Now I'm off to colonise some African countries, get spanked, read Dickens, drink tea while being repressed about sex and tell jokes about the Irish.

..yeah I’d recommend that gets fast-tracked to Barbequotes

y - all I’m saying that the whole point of national identity, of the nation state, is that you identify yourself with and pledge allegiance to something bigger and stronger than you. It takes your taxes, and looks after you and gives you a say every polling day, so the story goes. It’s something you buy into: it’s not genetic, its not like family. There is no such thing as an English ‘tribe’ and you don’t inherit Englishness.

In a lot of cases, I'd suggest that it frequently amplifies what you were. Look at ex- pats - Yes, ex-pats I know in Spain are much more jingoistic about being English than me, but don’t seem at all able to cope with the idea that their children will be/are Spanish.

Oh, and What? Us and the Scottish and Welsh? Are you joking? - My grandparents are from Wales. My parents were born in London. I’m from the shitty backwaters of Lincolnshire, and I’m British for as long as I choose to pay taxes here.


(Er, sorry if that sounds grumpy, only I watched Laurence Of Arabia last night, and am currently on a big “a man can be anything he choses to be” kick)
 
 
Smoothly
08:56 / 09.12.03
Thanks for all these responses. Personally I'm happy that this didn't move to the Headshop, because my aim was to encourage more free association than analysis. For instance, the question of how we derive pride from nationality is an interesting area, but I hoped to avoid getting into it here. Although, as it turns out, it has perhaps served to show that an intense ambivalence about national pride is another characteristic of the English. And the way some of these traits conflict was one of the things that inspired me to ask about it in the first place.

There are lots of other things here I'd like to pick up on, but having gone away for a few days, I think I've lost my opportunity on most of them. However, I was hoping to hear a bit more from people of other nationalities. Do you associate Englishness with the same things that the English people on here have mentioned? For instance, I was happy to see Steelwelder mention bad teeth, because that's something I've heard a lot, and seems to be a much more emblematic association outside England than within. See, also, Benny Hill.
So, don't be shy. Your associations don't have to be fair or well founded - in fact the one's that aren't, are, in many ways, more interesting.
 
 
Saveloy
13:16 / 11.12.03
Hmmm, English cliches:

- Miserablism; celebrating the dour and dismal. Cf: the Smiths, Alan Bennett, The Glums, Goth, dotty old women attending seances, Ghost stories, high ghost population (I vaguely remember hearing that Britain, if not England, was the 'most haunted place in the world', but that was prolly 20 years ago, in The Unexplained magazine).

- Don't like to complain; a feeling that one should put up with things ("mustn't grumble" and all that). Probably came out of the war, that.

- Nostalgia for the war (WW2). I'm guessing this is not to be found in the rest of Europe, the obvious reasons being that although the war wasn't a barrel of laughs for us, we didn't suffer the indignity/horror of occupation, and we were on the right side.

- Really into gardens.

- Stodgy puddings.


Other bits and bobs off the top of me 'ead:

There's a great variation on a famous Wilde quote in Julian Cope's biography which always makes me laugh, and which has a pretty English flavour to it:

"We are all lying in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the kerb."

The news today about the French govt thinking of bringing in a law banning Moslem girls from wearing head scarves in school reminded me of a comment I heard a while ago, from a French Anglophile on the radio:

"The French are tolerant of different ideas but intolerant of actual differences; the English are intolerant of different ideas but tolerant of actual differences."

Probably complete bollocks, but I thought worth chucking in to the mix.



Ariadne>

Glad you liked those pics, I love 'em. I reckon you might like this, too:

Pelham Street


More here:

Great Brickkiln Street


and here:

St Marks Rd

Take the link at the bottom of the last two to the Articles Page for yet more bleak scenes. Some smashing pics of half demolished buildings.
 
 
Saveloy
13:43 / 11.12.03
Oh yeah:

- Short, ineffectual men married to big, no-nonsense, bosomy women (eg Andy Capp, George and Mildred)

- Shoddy service. Work-shy, indolent types, always sitting down on the job / breaking for tea.

- Spanking. Didn't it used to be known as 'the English vice'? Didn't we used to be known as a nation of pervs generally?

I was gonna say:

- The Anorak, or Cutie movement. A subset of indie, born in the 80s (The Pastels, The Shop Assistants etc). Never existed outside of the UK as far as I know.

...but I think that was way more Scottish than English - ISTR a strong Scottish contingent, anyway. In fact, weren't the Pastels Scottish?
 
 
Red Cross Iodized Salt
19:07 / 12.12.03
I grew up in Ireland, where there has been significant preoccupation with England for as long as I can remember. Although England was often the 'other' by which Irishness could be defined (for the obvious historical reasons) we were also constantly influenced by English culture. We would all watch the BBC or Channel 4 before we would watch RTE or UTV. The children’s programmes I remember most fondly are all English. The comic book I enjoyed reading most was 2000AD. In my John Peel listening / NME reading teenage years I was generally more interested in American bands, but there were always a couple of favorites from England. When raves and clubbing took off around 1991/92, it wasn't long before it seemed like everyone in Dublin (or at least everyone in Sides / the Olympic / UFO) were reenacting what had gone on in and around London and Manchester two years previously. As a result of all this, I associate a lot of positive things with England. I suppose that, not being English, I was able to pick and choose only the positive.

Other thoughts I have on what it means to be English are strongly influenced by a former girlfriend and the way in which she regarded England. She was born and raised in Bournemouth, but the two of us were living in Brussels at the time. My circle of friends there was predominantly English, Irish and Scots. The Irish and Scots, for the most part, seemed content both with being from where they were from and for others (continental Europeans, Americans, Canadians) to make judgements about them based on nationality (possibly because the judgements were generally "you all love to have fun and speak with appealing accents"). The English, on the other hand, while still 'proud' to be English, seemed reluctant to appear to be proud to be English...yet also resentful of feeling this way (the only other people who struck me as having this same conflict were German). When drunk, my then girlfriend and another of our friends would display an unusual degree of (mostly tongue-in-cheek) jingoism if somebody were to show more interest in the Irish or Scots than in the English. The thing is, her parents were Australian and Israeli and his were Indian.

I think that Reidcourchie hit upon something w/r/t the Celtic fringe's prejudices. I have often been surprised by otherwise reasonable Irish people's knee-jerk reactions to England and the English (even essentially jokey ones like cheering for Argentina when watching a World Cup match with English friends), yet I can also understand where this comes from. I have never felt more conspicuously Irish than I did when I lived in London (even though I think of London as being its own entity, a part of England but also separate). I think it partially stems from history lessons (and perhaps republican grandparents), but it also stems from a paranoid suspicion that you are judged for being of a colonised nationality.
 
 
gornorft
14:10 / 13.12.03
As an Australian that has spent a lot of time in England over the last six years I know I have a totally distorted view of Englishness, but I love the place. It's nothing like a United States, it's nothing like an Australia, nothing like an Asia. I'm sure it's like nowhere else on the planet. Englishness has it's own flavour, the taste of passion and disenchantment, grey conformity and quirky eccentric rebelliousness, Big Brother and yellow fields of harshly named Rape, bleak ancient monoliths against a backdrop of crop circled fields. Royalty and microwave chicken wingettes.

Today my memory tells me it looked like this

Tomorrow it will tell me it looked completely different.
 
 
Strange Machine Vs The Virus with Shoes
15:19 / 13.12.03
I hate England as only an Englander can. The whole concept of “English” conjures to mind the rich in their hunting gear, violent yobs or comfortably dressed middle class wankers. I don’t see London as being part of England, nor do I think of the major Northern cities (other than Leeds) being part of England. Just as the far right have taken control of the union jack, there is a strong element of nationalism emanating from England, this surfaces regularly in the Daily Mail. The English right wing conservative party is innately sycophantic to America because it is powerful, something that the Labour party wants to incorporate. It is strange that English nationalism only rises in conjunction with Europe, not America. For all intents, the “right” own the media, however it is funny that a lot of journalists are coke snorting, whore visiting wankers We are not as bad as the French in terms of nationalism, but this leads into being controlled by America.
 
 
Linus Dunce
17:39 / 13.12.03
Despite the odd disagreement, the UK's relationship with the US has always been to both nations' economic and military advantage. End of story at least for a while yet, I'm afraid.

England has historically defined itself in racial terms, especially outside the larger cities, and that is why the national flag is inextricably linked to racism.

But the big problem is feudalism. Sure, it was a long time ago, but I think there's still a kind of folk-memory that makes us resent authority while at the same time blame everything that goes wrong on a higher power. We moan about the council leaving litter in the streets as if the borough's employees are ordered to sneak out at night and dump it there. We hate our incompetent bosses yet happily gloss our own CVs. We hate toffs but never invite our "common" neighbours through the door. We complain about "imported obesity" while scoffing all-day full English breakfasts. We allow estate agents to live.

I like it here, God knows I'm lucky to have been born in a country with enough food to go round, but someone really should do something about our attitude.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
22:16 / 15.12.03
not strictly relevant, but a favourite quote, from Trainspotting:

"I don't hate the English, they're just wankers. We, on the other hand, were colonised by wankers."
 
 
Bastard Tweed
07:48 / 16.12.03
Well, speaking as an Anglophiliac American who's never left his own country,

"Wanda, do you have any idea what it's like being English? Being so correct all the time, being so stifled by this dread of, of doing the wrong thing, of saying to someone 'Are you married?' and hearing 'My wife left me this morning,' or saying, uh, 'Do you have children?' and being told they all burned to death on Wednesday. You see, Wanda, we'll all terrified of embarrassment."

-A Fish Called Wanda

Strictly in a word-association sense that monologue is the first thing to pop into my head whenever England's mentioned.

Um.

Look, if you find that offensive, you can just point out something about me being from Texas and I'm sure you can even the proverbial score.
 
 
STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK
08:54 / 16.12.03
A new (for me) perspective that's just hit me because I'm drunk (whoah, how English can you get?):

Being English is kind of crap.

Being from anywhere is kind of crap, unless it's someone else that's being where you're not from.

You make the best of a bad deal. The grass is always greener (with a higher THC content) etc...

Anyway, I'm still the King of France in exile. So ner.
 
 
fussycat
14:19 / 16.12.03
A friend (also a non-Brit) and I were sitting on the tube and looking at adverts and came to a conclusion that one of the main characteristics of Englishness is holidaying in Spain.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
14:25 / 16.12.03
England has historically defined itself in racial terms, especially outside the larger cities, and that is why the national flag is inextricably linked to racism.

But the big problem is feudalism. Sure, it was a long time ago, but I think there's still a kind of folk-memory that makes us resent authority while at the same time blame everything that goes wrong on a higher power. We moan about the council leaving litter in the streets as if the borough's employees are ordered to sneak out at night and dump it there. We hate our incompetent bosses yet happily gloss our own CVs. We hate toffs but never invite our "common" neighbours through the door. We complain about "imported obesity" while scoffing all-day full English breakfasts. We allow estate agents to live


This is interesting stuff but I'm not sure I agree with all of it (Ignatius, are you consumed with disgust at the English at the moment, or am I imagining it?). I'd say that England has historically (i.e. over the last five or six hundred years) defined itself in national terms rather than racist ones, and that the racism associated with the Union flag in terms of attitudes towards the Celtic nations was a product of nineteenth-century institutionalised racism on the part of central institutions - Parliament, the law courts, the universities, etc. I think racism towards African, West Indian and Asian immigrants as a phenomenon encountered within England itself is more recent, dating from the middle of the last century (Windrush onwards).

I wouldn't call it feudalism either. I don't think there's any connection between what you describe and mediaeval feudalism - though perhaps a blinkered sort of localism (insularity) is responsible for some attitudes. I think a lot of what you describe is down to a political system and above all an economic system which denies us agency by making us answerable to others but not to ourselves... I'm clutching a bit here, but when I think about being at university, I think a lot of the positive things I associate with it are down to the fact that I was answerable to no one but myself for what I did there. The absence of this can partly be ascribed to a willing abdication of responsibility on the part of the GBP - and it's often good to abdicate responsibility to those better placed to exercise it, e.g. re: medical decisions, but I don't think it always is.

Not sure what, if anything, can be done about this.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
14:36 / 16.12.03
A friend (also a non-Brit) and I were sitting on the tube and looking at adverts and came to a conclusion that one of the main characteristics of Englishness is holidaying in Spain.

... While, of course, demanding 100% authentic completely English culture.

[Izzard]
"Sausageeggandchips. Sau-sage-egg-and-chips. Do you - what do you mean you don't speak English? You're just not trying hard enough!"
[/Izzard]
 
  

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