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Englishness

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15:11 / 04.12.03

I was watching Martin Parr travelling round English holiday resorts in pursuit of Englishness for last night's Modern Times on BBC4. And it was interesting.
I don't want to talk about the programme so much as find out what Englishness means to other Barbeloids. What associations does the word 'Englishness' conjur for you? What are English characteristics? And do you feel at all uneasy considering these questions?

15:42 / 04.12.03

Just time for a quickie for now -

the scene in this photo strikes me as being very English. In fact, if there was one picture to sum up England, for me, it would be that. It could be anywhere in England, any one of the huge areas of grubby, half developed countryside that you are never more than a couple of miles from. The site it belongs to feels pretty English, too, subject-wise. Looking at those other pics there: those battered red road signs, they're very English. And the weather in them, the undramatic sky: ill-defined grey smudges against a sheet of luminous white. Usually depressing, but if you're in the right frame of mind or of a particular disposition, it can be thrillingly spooky and atmospheric (d'oh - "isn't the atmosphere atmospheric?" You get what I mean...)

Our Lady of The Two Towers

16:33 / 04.12.03

(I would suggest this should be bunged in the Head Shop as a companion thread to Bengali's 'Whiteness' thread.)

The typical answer is racists and Monty Python, which is very much the stock answer. I wonder if this sort of reaction is typical for a country that has lost it's Imperial past, whether the US will be the same when it hits the skids big time. The weird thing is I don't feel any shame for being English (absolutely no exoticism in as far back as we've managed to trace the Flowers dynasty I'm afraid) or white for that matter, yet I'm not too keen on the historical baggae of what being White and English has tended to mean for other parts of the world. Big time denial, obviously.

17:13 / 04.12.03

I quite like Martin Parr, but didn't know he was on TV. The thought of 'Englishness' does sometimes conjure up his photos in my mind.

18:04 / 04.12.03

I love those pictures, Saveloy. Oddly, that was exactly the England/ Britain that I missed while living in New Zealand. Okay, so there's something wrong with me! But I'm still glad to be home. Mmmmm.

Cheap. Easy. Cruel.

20:03 / 04.12.03

*dons suit*

Bad teeth.

*ducks*

07:22 / 05.12.03

One of Martin Parr's photos:

08:17 / 05.12.03

We are the Village Green Preservation Society.
God save Donald Duck, vaudeville and variety.
We are the Desperate Dan Apreciation Society.
God save strawberry jam and all the different varieties.

Preserving the old ways from being abused.
Protecting the new ways, for me and for you.
What more can we do?

We are the Draught Beer Preservation Society.
God save Mrs. Mopp and good old Mother Riley.
We are the Custard Pie Appreciation Consortium.
God save the George Cross, and all those who were awarded them.

We are the Sherlock Holmes English-speaking Vernacular.
God save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.
We are the Office Block Persecution Affinity.
God save little shops, china cups, and virginity.
We are the Skyscraper Condemnation Affiliates.
God save Tudor houses, antique tables, and billiards.

Preserving the old ways from being abused.
Protecting the new ways, for me and for you.
What more can we do?

God save the village green!

Tryphena Absent

08:26 / 05.12.03

I hate the concept of Englishness almost as much as whiteness though I think it's a little easier to define englishness. You can recognise the inherent oppositions within it and the class systems are very easy to get a handle on.

08:35 / 05.12.03

I'll have you know, young Steelwelder, that we'd would all have lovely teeth, if the Thatcher Goverment hadn't started cutting to shreds and privatising every aspect of our National Health Service. We'd still have free eye tests, glasses and prescriptions too.
*Surppresses growing anger*

Less spammy answer than the above - living in London, can't help but think of the multi-culturalism. Legacies of colonialsim we have 'cos of the Empire, part of my family and youth. I also think of bullshit Blairism ("Cool Briannia"), the traditons of the English Left (George Orwell), and a small-minded conservatism that seems to exist everywhere, the whole Island nation mentality. Hating the French. So - overall, this weird mix of contradictions, countering each other, mixed in with a fondness for a lot of our cultural symbolism.

08:44 / 05.12.03

I agree with Our Lady, this should go in the headshop.

Bengali's thread on whiteness made me think about how uneasy English people tend to feel about having any national pride these days and I think it would be good to have a proper discussion about it. I mean even the phrase National Pride when referring to Englishness sounds racist to me. Pride in being English seems to have antisocial connotations, for example in America it is perfectly acceptable to be patriotic and have the Stars and Stripes flag emblazoned on everything, but the George Cross, (and to a lesser extend the Union Jack) have been appropriated by the likes of the BNP and football hooligans so these flags have become a symbol of racism and violence.

It seems to me it's simply not acceptable to be openly patriotic about England apart from in sporting situations (the rugby springs to mind) but often even sporting events have left Englishness tainted because of the actions of a few. This means that the English tend to be tarred with the 'stupid, drunk, violent, racist' brush. One only has to think of (some of) the England football supporters, the English in Falaraki, or 'Brits abroad' to experience how the English are viewed by many other countries.

I'd love to be proud to be English, but currently it would feel far too much like I was aligning myself with the kind of person who epitomises the 'white van man' label.

08:49 / 05.12.03

'Fog isolates Continent'

08:54 / 05.12.03

In a similar vein, there's this thread from a while back.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

08:58 / 05.12.03

OK. I'm (genetically- inasmuch as that matters in a country that's been invaded so many times- this is why I find English "racial purity" nazis such a joke- basically, I can't be arsed to trace back where my family came from, so fuck it) very "English". I love England. I think it's a beautiful country (with the addition of Scotland and Wales, it's a beautiful island). What fucks it up is the fact that it's full of English people who see "England" as a ridiculously huge and stupid concept, when all it actually means is a territory.

I love this island. I don't, however, see that that is something that defines me as a person. I'm sure I'd love anywhere if (whether I was born there or not) I felt it had lovely countryside and great views, and knew it well enough and for long enough to hold such feelings.

This island also has fascinating history (as does everywhere).

It's when the two converge that we get to the shameful past. (Which, I hasten to add, this is not the only country to have- though it's pretty high up on the league tables.)

Proud to be English? No- I've done nothing to deserve national pride.
Ashamed to be English? No- I've done nothing to deserve national shame (otherwise I'd be calling all Germans Nazis).
I just am. And as far as I'm concerned, anyone else is welcome to be if they want to. And if they don't, 'sno biggie.

Although I do plan to declare myself "the King of France in exile" at some point soon. But don't tell anyone.

The resistable rise of Reidcourchie

09:04 / 05.12.03

As a Scot. this question of Englishness is something that has interested me. There is definite feel amongst the Scots, Welsh and Irish that the English cannot be trusted to have their own national identity as it tends to manifest itself negatively in the hatred of others rather than pride in themselves. With few exceptions the majority of English people I've spoken to either define their pride in their country in opposition to something or are either completely ambivalent towards being English or positively ashamed of it. On the other hand this could just be a manifestation of my own and other's in the so called "Celtic fringe's" prejudices.

Actually I've got a feeling I started a thread on a subject along these lines ages and ages ago.

09:11 / 05.12.03

Oulabelle - I don't really have that problem. What I said above about fondness for some of the cultural symbols (stodgy puddings and custard). There's loads of things I love about England, they make my vision of Englishness, and that is something I feel is to be celebrated - to me, something like the Notting Hill Carnival is a uniquely English event, which I love, and who could be more English than George Orwell or Alan Bennett? I suppose my conception of the idea rests on excluding all the bits I don't like, but if you look at the American conception of National Identity/Pride, it doesn't include slavery, present day racism, near genocide of the Native peoples etc. Perhaps 'cos American identity is tied up with their constitution? Be interested to hear what any Black Britons make of the idea.

As an aside, I've heard a black mate of mine refer to some white people as "too English". I knew exactly what he meant but it's hard to define - a combination of fried breakfasts, drunkness, whiteness, latent racism and shouting football songs.

09:28 / 05.12.03

Clarification of above thoughts: Perhaps American identity is tied up with the Constitution, and certain ideas (myths?) about America, all the ideas of the frontier, myths about indvidualism, sucess etc.

England doesn't have the same. Well, it does, but the most prevalent myths are all based on the legacy of Empire, and our superiority to EVERYONE ELSE, and so are widely rejected. The things I've mentioned above are mostly cultural symbols rather than components of a vision/myth of England, things I like about England rather than "Englisness", and so are quite hard to tie together into a coherent whole. Thoughts?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

09:31 / 05.12.03

Illmatic: I knew exactly what he meant but it's hard to define - a combination of fried breakfasts, drunkness, whiteness, latent racism and shouting football songs.

That is the stereotype of the English. One which, I have to say, "we" have done little to correct.

The way I see England right now is... we are a tiny little province, occupying most of a very small island off Europe. And we're tearing ourselves to shreds over whether we want to get rid of the pound/let them furriners in/kiss Bush's ass or try to build some kind of relationship with our neighbours.

The "tiny little province" part is important, if anyone's taking notes.

England REALLY doesn't matter. England is, to the rest of the western world, what the royal family is to England. It's an anachronism. It's what was once, for whatever (if any) reason, a figurehead.

I find the whole euro/pound debate hilarious, cos all the "little Englanders" are terrified that these shadowy figures in Brussels want to steal our identity, when, as far as I can tell, Europe doesn't really give a shit whether we join or not. (That's a subject for a different thread, though.)

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that England when it works (which it does quite a lot of the time) is pretty cool. When it doesn't, it doesn't. What England ISN'T, is important.

Tryphena Absent

09:53 / 05.12.03

We are a part of the international scene in some ways but that part has more to do with Ireland, with the history of the US and the striking colonial force that this island was. We also have a bit of economic swing but not that much... but when you're looking at an alliance like Europe the economy does come in to play with a lot of force. I think that people wilfully forget that there is no longer an empire, that we just need to get on with it. An MEP was discussing Blair the other day and they noted that he has little to contribute in the meetings between European leaders, that he's prone to soundbites and little of constructive merit. Sounds rubbish to me. Anyway I'm a bit divided about what you say Stoatie because I think you're entirely right about our position in Europe but I also think that Englishness is defined within our heads and being English we can't fail to place some security in our country. Plus London is one of the most diverse, most interesting and most entertaining cities in the world. If England has one thing going for it than it's this city.

I'd rather call myself European though.

And the constant obsession about allying ourselves with America really is bollocks. Like the American government give a toss. When can we let that go?

09:53 / 05.12.03

I guess England is sort of like the states in the US - it's part of a whole but meaningful nonetheless to the people that come from there. I have a friend who is very careful to mention that he's East German and another who is proud of the fact that she's from a town in Normandy.

An interesting point came up when I was thinking about my English national heroes; King Arthur - probably a Welshman trying to uphold the Roman way of life against the dirty Saxons; King Harold - a Dane who died trying to stop the dirty Normans; Henry V - another Welshman, obsessed with owning France; Robin Hood - probably a Norman if he existed at all; William Shakespeare & Oliver Cromwell - at least English; Wellington - an Irishman - there are others but as a sample I think they make the point.

And it sort of suits me - personally, I'm the product of a mixed background, and I couldn't feel more English. the country has a history, which I feel part of. Might as well be proud of where you come from, as I don't fancy the alternative. My friend is proud to be German, and I wouldn't suggest that there's anything wrong with that. My grandmother was Rom, so should I beat him around the head with the holocaust?

09:57 / 05.12.03

I'd just like to point out that English is the most widely spoken language in the world, and I love it- great language, this.

And I'm proud to be English, I like it, to me there are good and parts of everywhere but it's like your house- it might not be objectively special but it's yours and you're comfy in it. I like tea, and beer, and biting sarcasm and stiff upper lips and winning the rugby and cheering the Queen as she visits Nigeria and bitter and the BBC and old ladies in a twinset and pearls and young punks and Shakespeare and the Beatles and cucumber sandwhiches cut into triangles and the poll tax riots and London and rolling green hills and chalk cliffs and being the only country in the world to have proper pubs.
If I were French I'd be proud to be French but I'm not- I'm English, and although my patriotic fervour is largely cosmetic (as Alabama 3, the great English band sings, 'Don't need no country, don't need no flag') if England was a band I'd wear their T-shirt.

To me Englishness is summed up in the character from 200AD Devlin Waugh and possibly Withnail.

10:12 / 05.12.03

My family came to England from Sri Lanka when I was 10. We've experienced the whole gamut of racism, and still do to an extent, but the life we've been allowed to lead in this country has been a great one. I don't mean to resort to hyperbole, but despite England's somewhat unsavoury past exploits ,at the moment it is essentially a GOOD place, populated by GOOD people.
To me, Englishness does not neccesarily equate to tattoed, skinhead, white van driving millwall fans with some inherent sense of cultural superiority manifesting itself in xenophobia and casual violence. Rather, Englishness conjures up images of Morrissey look-a-likes on bicycles and Prince Charles looking dapper in Tweed and Notting Hill Carnival and old asian women selling samosas on Brick Lane.
There's far too much unwarranted anglo-saxon guilt at the moment preventing people from fully embracing the positives within this great culture.

10:17 / 05.12.03

Quantum:
"To me Englishness is summed up in the character from 200AD"

Blimey, you're doing well for your age! I used to have issue 7 (dated Nov 179AD). Hand painted in woad on wolf skin, still had the free pig's pizzle, but my mum gave it to a jumble sale. Bah!

Tryphena Absent

10:39 / 05.12.03

I'd just like to point out that English is the most widely spoken language in the world, and I love it- great language, this.

I think you're wrong actually and it's Spanish... it was 8 years ago anyway. I could be wrong now.

10:44 / 05.12.03

I reckon you're thinking of the USA there, Tryphena, but I could be wrong also. There was a prog about the spread of English on the telly a couple of nights ago, which estimated 25% of the world's population being able to speak English. Have to check that out.

Stoatie:
"What England ISN'T, is important."

That may be true (in the sense that you're talking about it - I mean, I think England is pretty important to anyone who lives there), but I'm not sure that even the Little Englanders that you speak of actually care about that anyway. The reason that Little Englanders are despised by yer cosmopolitan left is their supposed insularity (every Tuscany-holidaying, cosmopolitan lefty is haunted by memories of their Auntie Rita refusing to touch "that foreign muck" - this leads, sadly, to them forming a link between English culture and a refusal to experiment, and so they chuck the baby out with the bathwater and assume a rejection of Englishness to be a victory for multiculturalism). So anyway, Little Englanders don't give much of a toss about England's influence on the rest of the world, they just want to be left alone to live their idea of an English way of life. I have a lot of sympathy with that. I associate the need to be influential and important on the world stage with Britishness - a ruling class thing.

Speaking of class, it's interesting that the two types of Englishness mentioned so far can be split into:

Working class thuggery
Middle class gentility

Can anyone think of any more general, non-class specific English traits? I would say:

- pragmatism
- pride in not taking anything seriously

11:32 / 05.12.03

There seems to be a certain level of complaint regarding the notion that patriotism is directly linked to racism, but... isn't it, really?

So you like drinking tea. Fine. You love all that old English literature. Good for you. You enjoy any number of comforts and quaint little customs associated with living in England. Whatever.

But... to take pride in the fact that one happens to have been born in a particular country, association with aspects of the culture in which one lives or other people's achievements seems, to me, incredibly arrogant and having little more effect than encouraging alienation. It really couldn't be much fun to be a foreigner in a country where everyone runs around waving flags and shouting out what a great thing it is to be a part of their country. And the attitude of, "We are, and by association I am, superior because of all this with which we have grown up with," inherent in patriotism isn't really something I'd think should be encouraged. With thoughts like that, people start to believe they should be entitled to things which others aren't, should go around enforcing their lifestyle on others and... oh, look!

Unless one's actually talking about something which one has created or caused oneself (actually, I even kind of perceive pride relating to this as a form of arrogance - "Ha, look how great I am!" - but I arguably have "humility issues"), there seems little reason for anyone to express pride. Like Stoatie says, this doesn't mean one should feel ashamed/guilty, it's just a case of, "Well... what reason do you have to feel proud about this?"

... in a country that's been invaded so many times- this is why I find English "racial purity" nazis such a joke...

A "friend of the family"/very distant relation happens to be a vaguely prominent biologist, and mentioned at some point having done a DNA test on himself. Apparently, his blood contained countless different nationalities... including a surprising percentage of Mongolian. Perhaps it'd be a good idea for anyone ranting about "racial purity" to go through such tests. Photos of their faces when they find out the results would be nice.

Regrettable Juvenilia

12:01 / 05.12.03

12:02 / 05.12.03

...hatred of the french...

12:08 / 05.12.03

Mlle A: I don't actually feel that passionate about but I'm going to disagree for the sake of argument. In the discussion I'm not talking about pride I think, more about finding reasons for liking this place, finding things worthy of celebration,, rather than continued self-loathing. Can one have a positve self-image without this tipping over into aggressive jingoism? Does a positve self image always equal contempt of others? I don't think it does, what I was trying to get at above was if we were to trying to create a new sense of "Englishness" thinking about what we would want it to involve? Basically, I like the idea of trying to picture the UK as a tolerant and inclusive place, as this might make it happen.

... and I'm going to put all of this on my application for membership of New Labour.

12:23 / 05.12.03

Anti-intellectualism
Watercress
Children's fantasy fiction
Jam tarts
A certain strain of mysticism
Trout streams
Keeping up with the Joneses
Ghastly fixation with heritage and with eccentrics
'Abroad is unutterably bloody and all foreigners are fiends.'

I dunno - I don't think I am associating these things with the country in which I live for the sake of a kind of puffed-out-chest patriotism (see also: the Jelly-Bellied Flag-Flapper from Stalky & Co) or its opposite. I don't necessarily regard those things as an essential part of a national character which I identify with, but they are things which I think of when I think of England (the idea of it), and they are things which exist in England in reality to some degree... I think it is possible to think of Englishness without necessarily attaching oneself to those ideas, and without thinking that to be English one must necessarily be/use/subscribe to those things.

Ex

12:28 / 05.12.03

There seems to be a certain level of complaint regarding the notion that patriotism is directly linked to racism, but... isn't it, really?

Maybe one could have a form of understated Anglophilia that liked the trivial associations of Englishness but didn't feel any particular proprietarial associations with them. Hard, because so many things emerge from our utterly head-twisted history of class and imperialism. Up to and including tea. Sweet, beautiful tea. I love tea. Can't stand the taste, mind you, just love the idea...

And while this thread's still in the conversation ouwith the rigours of the Headshop, I add the conversation I had with a friend who had declared himself happy to be English.
"You're not patriotic in a 'sending people home' way?" I asked.
"Only home for tea..."

PG Wodehouse, Flanders and Swann, Radio 4, hot water bottles rather than sex, sexual confusion in the surburbs, bittersweet politeness, the dead dead South Coast seaside resort and mods.

12:32 / 05.12.03

On English being the widest spoken language- I think you're wrong actually and it's Spanish... it was 8 years ago anyway. I could be wrong now. Tryphena
You are thinking of the US. My Spanish teacher told me that by amount of people the laguage top 3 was Mandarin then English then Spanish, but by Global spread English was first followed by Spanish.
Mind you that was twelve years ago

I suspect it's because we colonised the most closely followed by the Spanish and Portugese.

But anyway it's a great language, it could only be better if 'Ululating Spatulates' made any kind of useful sense.

12:51 / 05.12.03

Illmatic: That wasn't necessarily aimed at your piece above, unless your mentioning American "national pride" was meant to suggest that something similar should be taken up when celebrating the "loads of things [you] love about England. By all means, celebrate the fact that one can now practice whatever religion one likes without being burnt at the stake. Or celebrate tea, if you like.

But I think pride in something which has nothing to do with one's actions is rather misplaced, and that the way to celebrate any of the positive things which may be associated with "Englishness" isn't to go around waving a flag in everyone else's facing, shouting, "Yay, we're so great! And we as a whole being so great makes me so great!"

However, as said, that certainly doesn't mean "continued self-loathing". Why should you personally feel guilty if (sticking to the examples) some English people happen to go around smashing things to pieces and beating each other up every time they go to a football match? But likewise, why should one gain self-worth from the fact that more people in the country in which they live have certain traits than people in most other countries do? If you feel strongly enough about, say, the level of homophobia in our society, then write some letters, raise awareness, do something positive which will give you a reason to feel good about yourself for having done something about the problem, but don't feel guilty just because of its existence. If you feel overjoyed by the progress that gay rights movements have made, then celebrate and enjoy it, but I don't think anyone who hasn't played a part in that really has as right to actually feel proud about it.

Does a positive self image always equal contempt of others? Mmmm... well, no. But the idea that one's self-image should come from associations with where one happened to be born seems a bit suspect. And, arguably, I think perhaps actually intentionally waving one's "greatness" in everyone else's face might well be.

13:00 / 05.12.03

I'm with Illmatic. I think a certain level of self-confidence, support and celebration is required to keep cultures alive - or, if you prefer, keeping your bit of the world different and interesting - and makes for a more interesting world. The alternative is a world full of Man United supporters. *shudder* To suggest that even the tiniest bit of pride must lead to irritating flag waving is akin to saying that smoking hash must lead to heroin addiction. Remember: a world full of Man United supporters...

I just asked a Russian colleague who has lived here 12 years to tell me what she thinks of as English traits, and she said she's got a "long, unflattering list". I'll report back later with it, if she gets round to writing it down.

13:00 / 05.12.03

So, what I think: It’s a stupid idea, there’s no such thing.

You really want national identity? Then think of yourself as British, if that’s the political power towards which you contribute financially and ideologically (supposedly) thru taxes and votes. But ‘England’ is just a place, and these days no-one, no family, no business, stays in one place for very long. You might just as well talk of London-ness. It’s a place. While you’re there, you’re a Londoner. But that’s not some innate quality, and when you leave you become something else.

..But this is a great thread though, even if I think you're all discussing something that doesnt exist.

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