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Silence Ignorant Fools

  
  

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Tryphena Absent
13:09 / 27.11.03
Today I was thinking about all the times that I've been wearing my pentacle and someone's asked if I'm a satanist. It happens far too often and it irritates me, mostly because I'm not and it's a sign of the sorry state of the world (IMO). Usually I reply that it's the wrong way up to be that kind of symbol but I'm wondering what everyone else would say?
 
 
cusm
13:25 / 27.11.03
Ooo, good topic!

An inverted pentacle doesn't necessarily mean you're a satanist, either. Satan is a purely Christian invention. The best I can do when confronted with that question is to mention that.

Myself, I wear as a talisman a sigel of my own creation, which rarely draws attention or question from people any more since I've learned to wear it as an intrinsic part of my personal energy. Its so natural, you just wouldn't think to point it out. Funny thing about talismans that way, if you are comfortable enough with it, people stop asking questions.

Though occasionally someone will get by the cloaking shields, asking "what's that mean?" I answer, "me". That stops most folks cold. If they press, I tell them that's a long conversation, one requiring an evening with some intoxication to do service. I can't recall a time in recent memory that hasn't put them off neatly.
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
13:37 / 27.11.03
'But of course. Are you interested in joining us? We always welcome new blood.'
 
 
Quantum
14:25 / 27.11.03
Good topic! (heh, new blood, that or 'YOUR DOOM PUNY HUMAN!')

I have a seal of Solomon tattoo, which people don't usually notice (I have cloaking like cusms & natural camouflage, looking v.mundane) but when they do they assume I'm Jewish and it's a star of David.
Usually I explain to see if they're worth investigating, or just agree with their assumptions, but I did almost get into a fight once at a nightclub.
Some friendly Israelis said 'oh, a star of David' I said 'No, a seal of solomon' they became unfriendly Israelis and said 'Ooh, that's blasphemy! You can't have our symbol' I (pissed and pissed off by now) said 'No it isn't, YOD HEH VAU HEH, that's blasphemy, unpronouncable my arse..' - we swiftly exited stage left followed by angry words...
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
23:12 / 27.11.03
I don't really wear any sigils on myself, though I've played with the idea of getting a cadecus tattoo. I do, however, have something that amounts to a home-made non-native "medicine" bundle filled with stones, interesting coins (quarters with occult or semi-occult imagery on them), and herbs. It's a little blue coin purse that came out of a Christmas/New Year's cracker. I've got a leather bracelet tied to it for easier holding. I think most people just think it's a weird rosary.

For sheer amusement, for the same reason I used to wear an Illuminati pin, I've been playing with the idea of finding a small blank button (for those that haven't read the Invisibles, the black badge is one of the "signs" of the Invisible College). If nothing else it should probably attract more Invisibles fans. And a plain white surface IS theoretically useful in magic, as it provides a meditative "null" focus to achieve No-Mind through.
 
 
Warewullf
19:30 / 30.11.03
I'll slap the next person who refers to my Ankh as a "Peace Cross".
 
 
penitentvandal
19:36 / 30.11.03
This has to be the best title for a thread, ever...

...but...but...why would you wear people about your person? I mean, you'd have to be really tall...unless, um...is this some kind of fetish thing?
 
 
C.Elseware
01:20 / 01.12.03
Heh. I get that 'blending' thing, that once it's part of view people stop seeing it. I usually wear a ringpull and a coin around my neck. There are several good (heh) reasons for this but Quantum came up with a good one size fits all description; they're the urban four leafed clover.

My personal sigil is tattooed on my chest. It still seems to be working, although I usually forget it's there and it's pretty rare that anybody (new) sees me take my shirt off. When I do get asked about it I usually exaplain that "it's to remind me to be happy.

I used to have a small ankh hidden in my dreadlocks, but that was very special to me because it came in the deluxe box-set of Ultima IX (computer game). Which probably shouldn't count.
 
 
Elbereth
04:08 / 01.12.03
if you wear anything that is symbolic, expect to get questions especially from people who don't know. this gives you a chance to explain to them why you are doing it. otherwise you are just inviting people to ask questions so that you scoff at them later. you can wear it under your shirt if you do not want people asking you questions.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
08:10 / 01.12.03
Except being female means that I don't necessarily wear necklines that hide a pentacle that sits just below my collarbone. For instance I'm at work now and my top is hardly low cut but it's still on show.
 
 
Quantum
09:28 / 01.12.03
"She was flaunting her magicky thingummy at me m'lud, it was just hanging out there, I mean, she was asking to be asked about it really, no m'lud I don't know why she got so upset, must be all the satanic influence..."
I don't mind people asking, what I mind is people assuming they know. 'Oh you have a peace cross..' or 'Ah you must be Jewish..'

People use your jewellery as cues to pigeonhole you (Tryphena can probably explain more about fashion-as-tools-of-prejudice than me) and it is irritating anyway, never mind when they then use it to be scared of you or angry at you. Stoopid peeple.
 
 
Elbereth
15:14 / 01.12.03
fashin as a tool of prejudice: that is priceless! you sound like the ultimate yuppie goth , "Oh they couldn't possibly understand how i've had to suffer, why must i be discriminated against for looking good in black and wearing a silver ankh. Oh the pain! oh the torment!"
if some one comments on your jewlry you shouldn't act like stuck up bitch. just tell them what it means or say that its personal. I had one person go off on me once for saying "nice pentacle (or pentagram i don't know the difference), does it mean anything?" about how i was such an ignrant fool and couldn't possibly undersand deep spirituality and was probably a christian. you can be as mean as you want to someone being a jerk but getting on peoples cases for assuming wrong or asking a dumb question is just mean. lighten up.
 
 
Aertho
15:34 / 01.12.03
This is sure to rile the natives, but run this parallel:

You're on the subway, and look over and you see the guy next to you has a big swastika on his shirt. Is he a Nazi?
 
 
Never or Now!
15:52 / 01.12.03
It's "a sign of the sorry state of the world" that not everybody's read the same books as you? Mm-hm, I'm with Elbereth: If somebody asks you a question, hey, why not politely answer it?
 
 
salix lucida
16:14 / 01.12.03
I wear, at nearly all times, a septacle (skinny-angle [wow, my geometry has failed me today] seven-pointed star). I occasionally get "Is that a satanist thing?". My usual answer to this is "No. Count them.", at which point the assumptive moron slowly counts to seven and usually doesn't bother asking me what it DOES mean or why the number makes a difference. The truly interested who note the difference between it and a pentacle or between it and a "Satanism Thing" get a quick explanation of working with faerie energy and the idea of seven-element/direction systems.

I once had a very fluffy Faerie-Trad Wiccan who was standing nearby explain something about faerie servitors and lots of fluffwiccan rot to a querent for me, as she wore the same symbol to that meaning. I cringed, kept my mouth shut, and got a new one that looked as different from it as possible within a week.

The etched silver "star" rider-waite card and ogham-etched dichroic glass I occasionally switch it out for never get comments beyond "ooh, shiny".
 
 
Tryphena Absent
16:37 / 01.12.03
Elbereth I think that Quantum means 'clothes as a tool of prejudice'. Some of us use the word fashion in the more general sense of 'what you wear'. For instance you're liable to display a bias towards or against someone because of the type of shirt they're wearing. How do I know this? Because everyone relates more heavily to one group of people than another and clothes are the mark of the boundaries of our social groups. So no, he's not behaving like the ultimate yuppie goth and in fact is neither and I'm not a yuppie or a goth but I think that, like many of the people here, we are very aware of the type of snap judgements that many are liable to make, not only about practicing magicians but also about each others clothes, jewellery, gender and the other things that people tend to judge.
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
17:09 / 01.12.03
<...but...but...why would you wear people about your person? I mean, you'd have to be really tall...unless, um...is this some kind of fetish thing?>-Velvetvandal

Fuji: "Christine, you appear to be wearing a young man on your chest. Is this considered fashionable?"-StormWatch

...sorry, I couldn't resist.

I'd put my sigil on something, but since it's in horribly bastardized Hebrew I'd probably get a large number of Jewish people telling me that my grammar is terrible.

Incidentally, if anyone knows what, or even if there is, a Hebrew word spelt Teth+Lamed means, please send me a message.
 
 
Quantum
09:59 / 02.12.03
the ultimate yuppie goth Elbereth
we are very aware of the type of snap judgements that many are liable to make, Tryphena
Hahahahaha, yuppie goth *wipes tear from eye* that's priceless, and an excellent example of the point.

If you could see me you wouldn't classify me that way, because of my extremely normal clothes and hair and lack of jewelry and tats etc. I look like a preppy accountant.
Point is people make snap judgements about each other and I think it should be discouraged, I think people should look beyond the costume and attitude to the person underneath.
I'm not often rude to people who ask about my tattoo or jewelry (unless they're rude to me) and if someone asks who seems interested I'll bend their ear about True Magick for a half hour and invite them here.
But after fifty or so times of someone saying 'Ooh, a pentacle, do you worship the devil?' it starts to wear thin and you have to bite back the snarlingly withering response..

You're on the subway, and look over and you see the guy next to you has a big swastika on his shirt. Is he a Nazi? (Chesed)
If he's a skinhead wearing a bomber jacket with big boots on and tight jeans and tattoed knuckles then yes, he probably is. If he looks like an anti-war protester or a Jain he probably isn't. Depends on the uniform you wear, eh.
 
 
C.Elseware
10:05 / 02.12.03
Quantum is a good many things, but a goth ain't one of them. At the first barbelith meet I went to he stood out being the only chap in a _brown_ leather coat as opposed to the regulation black.

But there was a girl there in a my little pony t-shirt, who it never occured to me would be there for the meet.

We're all prejudice. It can't be helped, merely remembered.

It's amazing how much even subtle changes in what you wear affect how the world treats you. I'm pretty slovenly but I do make the effort to understand what I look like at any given time. This helps me understand the way other people are interacting with me.
 
 
illmatic
10:09 / 02.12.03
Bollocks Elsewhere, no one at that Barb meet was gothed up. (If you're talking about the one at that Plough).
 
 
Quantum
16:04 / 02.12.03
Illmatic, different meet- the Southampton Barbefolk are more gothy (you have to admit) Black leather and yellow rubber ducks mean I must be Soton...
 
 
Bard: One-Man Humaton Hoedown
17:13 / 02.12.03
Speaking of Barbelith meetings, does anyone know any folks from the forums who are in the Toronto, Ontario, Canada area? I know one person (the guy that told me about the boards), and I met one person today who used to be on the boards a while back, but that's about it.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
17:15 / 02.12.03
I don't mind the up-front questions so much-- I'd rather people just asked me what my dangles mean than gossiped behind my back and spread stupid rumours about me.

I do get royally pissed off when someone comes over, points at my ankh, and says "Do you know what that means?" The question is unfailingly delivered in tones of smug superiority, the subtext being: "You are a sad bandwagon-jumping Goth and I know more about your fake occult jewellery than you do, nyahh."

They hate it when I tell them "Yeah, it's a dick and a fanny. What's your point?"
 
 
Aertho
17:49 / 02.12.03
I'm running out to get an ankh right now.

The point I was trying to make was that some symbols can't be or aren't worth public and social "reclaimation". I mean, we are are the EXTRA-educated minority, not the educated majority. The majority is educated through movies and entertainment and recognizes that the pentacle is a sign of the Devil. The majority recognizes that the swastika is a sign of hatred and extereme racism. The majority recognizes the ankh as an Egyptian symbol of mythological power. They aren't uneducated in the least. It's just that that is the level of the majority's education.

Now I can tell you right now that the majority is gaining on us. I graduated high school six years ago and I rmember being taught in seventh grade that the swastika was an ancient cross-cultural symbol for good fortune, co-opted by the Nazi movement and thus "corrupted" into a different meaning. That kind of knowledge and questioning of symbols has influenced shows like Buffy, Angel, and Charmed. Slowly, the masses are being educated through entertainment that the pentacle is merely a symbol that was likewise "corrupted".

Now what if I told you that I was the guy wearing the swastika on the subway. Jeans, clean shaven, average American Joe. I'm wearing the swastika because I believe, personally, that the glyph represents good fortune, and SHOULD represent good fortune. I imagine that countless people will be made uncomfortable, become angered and possibly enraged at my presence and POSSIBLE interpretation. But I'm tired of people questioning me if I'm a damn Nazi. It means good fortune!

I'm not that guy. I would never wear a swastika in the present public arena. Symbols are meant to communicate between people, not hold power or meaning in and of a single individual human being.

Now was it worth it to wear the swastika, or wear the pentacle, or the ankh? Some symbols are beyond fixing, because they belong to a time with a very concrete meaning. The swastika actually serves a greater purpose by being a symbol for hatred. The Nazi movement is one of the human race's worst phases, and we have moved forward in response to it. The swastika reminds us and serves us in that venture.

The pentacle is different. I don't wear one, but I sincerely think that those who do serve a purpose greater than individual meaning or personal belief. The symbol may serve the purpose of challenging the absolutist fundamentalist archetype in a person's development. When someone learns of the pentacle's other history, or pagan roots, or its interpretation from another perspective, they are forced to question the nature of their own education. As I understand it, as I see it happening, the pentacle is SUPPOSED to be questioned in the public arena. It challenges faith and thus makes belief stronger.

So wear the pentacle if you think you can hack it. It's a chosen responsiblity.
 
 
cusm
19:31 / 02.12.03
yeah, it's a dick and a fanny

[digression]

I thought it was a sandle strap, actually. Though I'm sure there are even further interpretations of it.
 
 
Papess
18:20 / 31.07.04
I had to dig this thread up again because I am just getting so effin tired of people asking me if I am jewish when they see my pentacle. That is a six-pointed star, you dimwit!...is what I would like to say, but I refrain. Instead, I just tell them it is my "Pentacle". They usually reply with,

Them: "You mean pentagram?"

Me: *sigh* "No, (dammit) I really do mean pentacle"

Them: "Oh, so what does it mean then?"

Me: (reluctantly) "It is just a symbols that conveys the balance and harmony of the elements, including the spirit." (Trying to skirt the issue. I know have already said too much.)

Them: "Oh, so you are wiccan?"

*puts head in hands*

At that point, I might just agree if they are persistant. I just can't explain it to them.

I resist the urge to explain or proselytize because I just want to smack their head and say: "It's a star. I am a star, and you dammit, are a star.". I resist mainly because I think they will ask me if I am a Jehovah's Witness next. My reaction to that would seem hysterical because I wouldn't know whether to laugh or cry.
 
 
Unconditional Love
20:28 / 31.07.04
i thought the pentacle was an islamic symbol? and had come to europe via trade with moors? i could be very wrong.

as for the six pointed star... isnt the upward triangle shiva and the downward triangle devi? conjoined together as shiva shakti? i could be wrong.

i stopped wearing symbols, thou occasionally i wear a serpent ring, i never get comments anymore. have you ever tried not wearing them for say a few months to see how it feels? do you not find that they can become a crutch to your personality occasionally?
 
 
Papess
23:04 / 31.07.04
as for the six pointed star... isnt the upward triangle shiva and the downward triangle devi? conjoined together as shiva shakti? i could be wrong.


Wolfangel: I wear a 5-pointed star, a pentacle and the fools think it is a 6-pointed Star of David, (where the two interlocked triangles are symbolic of the union of heaven and earth). Now, there are many interpretations, I am sure; fire & water, male & female, chalice & blade, Shiva & Shakti, Sigfried & Roy, pirates & ninjas, etc...(pardon my sarcastic tone, it isn't meant for you Wolfie) I just posted about this because it is exasperating at times to even try to explain the symbol and people make all sorts of assumptions about it.

have you ever tried not wearing them for say a few months to see how it feels? do you not find that they can become a crutch to your personality occasionally?

A few months? Try a few years. So, no I have not found they have become a crutch. Hehe, my personality needing a crutch. It can practically walk out the door on it's own!

I don't always wear blatant occult symbols. I do not even like jewelery and I have no tatoos to sport such ostentatious glyphs. Sometimes I just feel I want to though, (for whatever my personal reasons). I would just like to be left alone and not have to teach an "occult studies 101" class if do.

Sort of like when I wear a low-cut top, it doesn't mean I am cool with people commenting on my breasts while trying to grab them. (People just can't seem to keep their grimey hands off my pentacle!)
 
 
*
02:12 / 01.08.04
Ah, just admit it. The reason you wear the symbols is to shock people and get magickal energy from subverting their innocent little paradigms.

(ducks and runs)

Now, a Jewish friend of mine had the same experience in the opposite direction-- he was asked if he was a satanist for wearing a star of David. When he said "No... I'm Jewish" the person's response ACTUALLY WAS to pat the top of his head and ask, with a genuinely puzzled look, "Where are your horns?"

He had to tell the truth: "I'm adopted."

I expect people to misunderstand my personal symbology. But if anyone pats the top of my head looking for horns, or stares at my arse hoping to see where the tail was, THEN I'll let myself become annoyed.
 
 
Nietzsch E. Coyote
08:55 / 01.08.04
I know this one. I used to wear a beautiful hammer of Thor. It was a replica of one from the period after Christianity more or less conquered Scandanavia. The same jewelers were making crosses and hammers of thor. My problem was that everyone who saw it thought it was an upside down cross. They didn't think I was a satanist, just an asshole. For the first twenty or so times I patiently explained this whole speal. After I ran into trouble in a Denny's in Washington State down in America I retired it. I now wear a more obvious hammer of thor. I almost never get asked any questions about it.
 
 
Yagg
09:08 / 01.08.04
I asked Eris about this issue and The Goddess said to me, "Wear it inside your shirt." Problem solved.

She knows it's there!
 
 
Papess
16:28 / 01.08.04
...to shock people and get magickal energy from subverting their innocent little paradigms.

Bwahaha! Buddy, can you paradigm? Funny though, when they try to touch my pentacle, it almost feels as if they are gleaning from me. And Gentlething, that is a really sad story of boobery in the 1st degree. *yikes* nice comeback though!

"Wear it inside your shirt." Problem solved.

Hmm, and if I am topless?

You see, I wear the pentacle and a collar at work (which involves me being disrobed as an erotic dancer). They are for adding a seal on those chakras, as the pentacle falls directly on my sternum (fourth chakra), and the collar seals the fifth chakra. These tend to be problem areas, I think for a lot of people, as the mouth tends to be a point of release for energy and it doesn't flow to the third eye and crown, or it does at less impact. This causes energy to dissapate. The collar (which has no symbol and funtions adequately) and pentacle help me to protect and seal my body so that the energy flow is more efficient. Soon I will be using corsets as well, to seal the third chakra and that has no symbol on it either, but it is a symbol in and of itself.

The problem with the fourth chakra is, it is hard to find something that will rest in the solar plexus that has the ability to function in this manner. Using a pentacle is reinforcing astrally as it is a potent symbol.

However, a funny thing happened to me on the way to the Temple....

I lost my pentacle in between the two last posts I made, yesterday! I posted my last post and realized the item in question was gone! How funny is that! I also lost my collar a few days ago to boot...but then, I suppose I do not need these things anymore. It has been this way for me in stages now, this whole symbolic removing of veils and naked awareness thing (which is only compounded by my occupation and is terribly ironic at times). I think the universe was just confirming to me that ...no, I really don't need these things anymore. However, I have lost it before and it came back.

The universe is such a joker.

As of late, I must admit that I didn't feel the need for the collar in this manner and was using it purely cosmetically as was the pentacle a beautiful piece of jewelery, (and is now just that). But, if the same ends are accomplished anyway, they are superfulous magickally for me. Unfortunately, the universe is no slave to fashion, either. It bothered me at first because it was so beautiful, but in the end it is just a necklace.

The other interesting angle on what Wolfangel posted is the resemblance to jewish laws of refraining from imbuing symbols and idoltry with power. Not quite for the same purpose as a magician, but an interesting correlation.

Hey, maybe I am jewish, after all!

Magick cracks me up.
 
 
Skeleton Camera
16:47 / 01.08.04
May Tricks - possibly tangential, but I've ne'er heard of using jewelry as a way to "seal" chakras. It makes perfect sense though. Tattoos could probably do the same thing...as well as makinga very interesting composite design - if you had tats up the entire sushumna (chakra tree - I love that word).

Hmmm...I have an ornate Celtic cross that hangs directly on my sternum, and above that a Moon Goddess design of a woman swinging on a cresent moon (it looks rather lewd, part of what I like about it) - but this doesn't rest on my throat. For what it's worth.
 
 
gale
17:00 / 01.08.04
I wore a pentacle for years, and usually people either didn't mention it, or said that they shared my beliefs (wink wink, nudge nudge). However, there was one woman where I worked at the time who, every time I had to speak to her, became transfixed with terror at the sight of my pentacle. Like a small animal before a cobra.

She never said anything but I could almost see her mentaly crossing herself. Now, I am not interested in frightening anyone, and I felt really bad about this. But as I recall I did not stop wearing the pentacle.

I also have a Thor's hammer pendant that my father gave that looks like an upside down cross. No one ever said anything when I wore that.

Now I wear a serpent ring, but have mastered the art of invisibiity--mainly to stay out of trouble. I would love to have plain white button also.
 
 
Madman in the ruins.
18:09 / 01.08.04
Good topic.
I wear a petwer pendant every Wendsay, I've never been able to sleep comfortably when wearing it tho. Its worn inside my shirt so no one normally sees it.
I used to I wear a home made sigil, it's slate with the sigil marked out in gold paint, these past few months I've found I've not needed it so its gone back in the drawer.
I've got several silver rings that I wear outside of work (Health & Safety constraints in work) I was asked by my Brother not to wear a ring with the image of Pan/Bacchus to his wedding. (As his in-laws are Islamic and his mother in law particualy devout).
Apart from that , i've only had to explsain to some of the younger members of my famliy what some of my rings mean.
 
  

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