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The Purpose of Government

 
 
SMS
00:46 / 27.11.03
A sister thread to "On the Varieties of Anarchy"

This thread will be working under the statist premise that government is necessary.

A first definition of government: a coercive monopoly of power.

Feel free to offer modifications to this if needed. I’m taking it from Randy Barnett

What should the role of government be? What are its primary and secondary roles? Does humanity have a 'state of nature' into which we would fall without government and if so, what is it? Should government act as a caretaker, helping those in need? Should it try to structure society, by for instance, making sure the rich aren't too rich? Should it act only as protector of fundamental rights? Is the purpose of government, as pure democrats would say, to enforce the will of the majority?

etc.
 
 
40%
12:24 / 27.11.03
The first way a government must justify its existence to the public is by offering people protection. Protection from crime, from starvation, from exploitation, protection of rights and freedoms etc. The other way is to increase the effectiveness of resources through centralised control, leading to NHS, public transport, social security etc.

The government should be there to protect people from things from which they cannot reasonably protect themselves, and to organise an infrastructure which can only be achieved through mass co-operation.

Our government unfortunately seems to have taken its fundamental duty to offer people protection and extended it into areas where people should reasonably be able to protect themselves. Particularly, our government seems to want to protect us from the consequences of our own foolish (sometimes, sometimes not) beliefs and behaviour, which dehumanises us.

One reason this is going unchallenged is that the state has a legitimate role to protect, and as in any form of abuse, it is crossing a very fine line which determines how far that role should go.

My view of where the line should be drawn is that the government should only seek to protect people from external threats over which they have no control.
 
 
Fist Fun
19:20 / 27.11.03
Government should provide infrastructure and a basic standard of living for all paid for by fair taxation. The infrastructure should encourage the creation of wealth,happiness and fairness for humanity.
 
 
fifty50
19:59 / 27.11.03
so it's decided: government is there to protect the sacred.
it's just a matter of who decides what's sacred and what
...isn't
 
 
SMS
01:25 / 28.11.03
It seems just to me to coerce people into
a) Not violating a minimal set of others' rights
b) Providing sufficient support for a military to protect the land from foreign invasion
c) Protecting the environment

These are the primary functions of government.

Secondary functions
d) Forcibly taking money from the fairly well-off the assist the indigent
e) Forcibly taking money from the citizens to provide funding for industries the people in power deem both sufficiently important and in need of subsidizing.

The primary functions are plainly necessary functions if the land is to remain civilized. Coercion is required for "a" because the protection of rights is the only thing that limits the use of coercive force. If you don't force people to respect others' rights (for the most part), then they someone will force people to do anything he wishes, and effectively replace one government with a despotism. The need to use coercion on your own citizens to protect them from foreign invasion is less obvious. It is safe assume that these people would have a strong interest in protecting their land, and that the very wealthy, at least, would happily fund their own protections, or make contracts with each other to keep invaders at bay. It is even likely that these investors would protect the poor from invasion as well, because the enemy on your neighbor's property is only barely preferable to the enemy on your own. However, if these investors form an army on their own, it is under their own control and thus, may easily take control of the actual government in a revolution. Once a government has been established, it has to have some means of protecting itself as an entity. Taking control of the armed forces is the obvious way to do this.

"c" is pretty easy to understand. Destroying the environment decreases the resources and increases the needs of nearly everyone. It is a subtle kind of rights violation. It might be handled by contractual agreements, but then those not a party to the contract (perhaps because they never pollute) would be subject to taking even more of the pollution than they would have without a contract.

It's easy to think of "d" and "e" as primary functions, but I think this is wrong. The first reason is that neither of these is necessary to maintain order in the land, and the second reason is that both can be done without coercion. Even today, volunteer organizations work to help the poor and indigent. Time and money are collected without ever threatening anyone or seizing assets. Most commerce and industry is funded without subsidies. The governing body, therefore, should not sacrifice any of its primary functions in favor of its secondary functions. However, the people do have a moral responsibility to do help the impoverished, and, if the first three functions of government are fulfilled, and the volunteer organizations still fall short of their responsibilities, the government needs to step in to assist (in addition to protecting) their weakest citizens. (And force their stronger citizens to do their moral duty)

"e" is complicated, because one could make an argument that supporting certain industries is necessary for national security. Keep food production high enough within the country so that we can feed ourselves if the next war closes our trade routes. Keep our manufacturing industry strong so that we can keep building military vehicles and such while we're fighting the war. We need a national transportation system so that we can deploy troops quickly. We need enough educated people to make complex calculations, so we should have public schools. I heard once that every major bill passed after WWII in the U.S. had the word security attached to it to help it get passed. I think there's a little more to this point than that. Some things may require government action unrelated to matters of national security. For instance, the telephone company in the U.S. was once a regulated monopoly, so that there could be a uniformity in telephone service. (It's still regulated, by the FCC, but it is no longer a monopoly). This was deemed necessary to getting the whole country wired, but this probably had to do with economics more than national security. The problem with forcing the citizens to fund this kind of thing is that there's no objective way to determine whether some industry is "sufficiently important." I'm glad we have an interstate highway system here in the U.S. but some people may wish it had never been built. Others may have wanted it built but been unwilling to pay anything for it. They were in the minority, I'm sure, but their status as minorities does not invalidate their arguments against the interstate highway system. One rule that would work if it were followed would be that the government should subsidize as rarely as possible, but I don't know how this rule could be put into force.

The infrastructure should encourage the creation of wealth, happiness and fairness for humanity.

I disagree. If the role of government is to promote my happiness, it's role is also to determine what my happiness is, and this it is wholly incapable of doing. Aside from that, there is essentially no law that a government could pass without being able to appeal to its necessity in their charge of encouraging the creation of wealth, happiness, and fairness. I also disagree that government is meant to serve humanity. It is meant to serve its citizens, for as poor as its decisions concerning what's best for its own citizens may be, it is infinitely worse at deciding the good of those most distant and unrelated to it.
 
 
gummi
16:54 / 14.12.03
I don't want to frame the issue in another context, but, it occurred to me we could look at the question from the subject or citizen's point of view. From my understanding, a person abdicates responsibility to the Government.

I think there's a tacit agreement, where people wish to live their lives under a construct in which the critical infrastructure of society is solely out of their hands -- an individual or small group cannot provide essential services alone, unless they have the skill set required for what they *want* for their "happiness", like a commune. Under this form of Government, the sole purpose is to provide an ability for the citizen to survive and live a life according to their moral or intellectual sense of freedom.

Clearly, we believe that the Laws of the Land provide some kind of constraint. This could be the Primary role. To prevent breakage and enforce the laws is an adjunct to this. The secondary role is an interesting idea to explore. From my political readings, I have an impression that the secondary functions have efficiently merged with the primary role:

"[from 'I demand...'] The other way is to increase the effectiveness of resources through centralised control, leading to NHS, public transport, social security etc."

From my point of view, the surrender of responsibility requires the government to prevent the people from relinquishing power from those who govern. In an odd way, I think this is a great candidate for the secondary role of government. Managing opinion is *very important*. Using the primary role, the validation and enforcement of Laws, Governments can enforce the surrender of Power efficiently.

I wonder how the role of Government could be framed to prevent this kind of abuse, also, shouldn't a secondary role be a rigid and critical opposite of the primary role. To question and constantly analyse the people who have our responsibility.
 
 
Scrambled Password Bogus Email
08:20 / 15.12.03
[facetious]
The business of British Government is to organise the management of steady decay
[/facetious]
 
 
Panic
17:04 / 16.12.03
Thanks to Rage's Conversation thread regarding Wikipedia's List of Isms, i found an entry on minarchism. Of which I'd never heard.

"Our main conclusions about the state are that a minimal state, limited to the narrow functions of protection against force, theft, fraud, enforcement of contracts, and so on, is justified; that any more extensive state will violate persons' rights not to be forced to do certain things, and is unjustified; and that the minimal state is inspiring as well as right. Two noteworthy implications are that the state may not use its coercive apparatus for the purpose of getting some citizens to aid others, or in order to prohibit activities to people for their own good or protection."

from Robert Nozick's Anarchy, State, and Utopia.
 
 
Z. deScathach
17:26 / 16.12.03
One thing to look at here is whether government should be centralized or de-centralized. That was a question never brought up in the original premise. At present, only centralized forms exist, so it begs the question of what a de-centralized form would be like. I would have to be different in it's function than systems that previously existed, otherwise there is risk of re-entering feudalism. It's my premise that in de-centralized government, it's primary function would be to provide cohesive structure to the whole, and that areas of coersion in which it would be necessary to involve itself would be the maintenance of it's own de-centraalization through protecting individual freedoms. In such a structure, there will alwas be those who seek to take power, therefor, the primary function of such a government should be to thwart such attempts. One of the emerging problems in democracy, IMO, is the increasing control over personal freedom through an ever increasing slew of laws. The system at present is primarily reactive and thus is continually layering law after law after law, until governments function and coersive control has extended far beyond the above aims. In the United States for example, there has been a strong call to create a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage. The system has become so reactive that the legalization of gay marriage in one state creates a perceived necessity to alter the constitution to coersive ends. Therefor, IMO, the power of government needs to be limited to maintenance of society in general, i.e., infrastructure, and the protection of individual freedom, unless said actions truly threaten the freedoms of others. Some would argue that being offended is a boundary violation, and therefor government needs to maintain a status quo through the support of religious institution and belief. Offense is not a shared boundary violation, but a highly individual one. What offends one frequently does not offend ohers, therefor government should be out of the business of protectng individuals from the discomfort of being around people who are different from themseves.
 
 
Slim
19:55 / 16.12.03
The one and only primary role of the government is to provide protection from other nation states. Everything else is secondary.
 
 
Lurid Archive
09:45 / 17.12.03
IMO, the role of government is to maintain the fabric of the social contract. You see, while libertarians argue that taxation is theft, most of them believe in the enforcement of property rights, for instance.

But you cannot expect to uphold property rights, or any laws for that matter, if you have a significant proportion of society are deprived. (Thats not quite true. Feudalism is, in some sense, a viable alternative. But I won't argue against it here.) The exact level at which someone is considered deprived and at which a minority is considered significant is debatable, of course. But I think the point remains, and you'll find that various functions of government can be thought of in this way - a welfare state, an armed force etc.

Of course, I think that there are also moral imperatives that should drive the function of government. But I think it is also important to acknowledge that one can justify many of those same functions out of pure self interest. In fact, I suspect that is why we have them.
 
 
SMS
03:43 / 18.12.03
One thing to look at here is whether government should be centralized or de-centralized. That was a question never brought up in the original premise.

That's true. By the definition offered, any truly decentralized method of governance is not government but anarchy. Which isn't to say that you're off-topic, necessarily.

social contracts

I've always reacted negatively to this description of what goes on with the government. I give my allegience freely and gladly to the United States, but I never feel as though I've made a contractual agreement with the government.

But that's a little beside the point your making, which is that, if a large group of people gain next to nothing from the present state of affairs, then the social fabric is threatened. Maybe there would be a revolution, or maybe we would be without an effective civilization. A moral imperative does exist to aid the poor and indigent, of course, but I don't see my responsibility to help the poor translating immediately to my responsibility to take from the rich and give to the poor. I have many moral responsibilities. If I ever have children, I have a responsibility to educate them, house them, feed them and so on. This is mandated by the state. But I also have a responsibility to love them, spend (fun) time with them, and teach them some basic values. I don't think the government ought to do this, nor do I think they ought to punish me if I fail to do it. Yet I think the social fabric would be in tatters if parents stopped loving their children and teaching them some kind of values. Individuals and non-coercive institutions can handle a number of potential problems. I'm not saying that the libertarians are necessarily right about the range that they can handle, but I think it is important not to assume that just because it's a good thing for society, it's also a good thing for government to impose upon society.
 
 
SMS
03:48 / 18.12.03
And that brings up another question. When is it better for the government to legislate moral imperatives of the individual than to act on them itself? The case of child-rearing is one example. They FORCE us to raise our own children (with exceptions) instead of raising them for us. Is there a general rule we can use?
 
 
Sobek
08:04 / 18.12.03

To protect property rights, period.

And even that may be unnecessary. See Robert Nozick's ANARCHY, STATE AND UTOPIA and the works of David Friedman for details.
 
 
Lurid Archive
11:15 / 18.12.03
I never feel as though I've made a contractual agreement with the government.

The analogy is often made with eating at a restaurant. Just because you don't sign a piece of paper, doesn't mean you haven't agreed to anything. The analogy is supposed to hold because you both get a say in the social contract, though the democratic process, and are free to choose one of the other available choices (in another nation). The retort to this is sometimes that, not having a choice of one's birthplace, the contract is really imposed. The idea that one has a right to be born in a place where the social arrangement conforms to one's ideology seems odd, to me.

A moral imperative does exist to aid the poor and indigent, of course, but I don't see my responsibility to help the poor translating immediately to my responsibility to take from the rich and give to the poor.

While I disagree with you here, you should note that my argument wasn't a moral one. Why is feudalism or a fairly rigid aristocracy a bad thing? Its not just because of injustice, it is also because of potential instabilities, IMO. The same argument holds if some section of the population hold a disproportionate amount of wealth and power - you essentially get a de facto aristocracy. I guess I'm saying that equality of oppurtunity requires a reasonably level playing field. Thats why taxation is progressive, I think. (One could also make a good economic case for the ineffieciency of an aristocracy/strict class system, but I think that would secondary).

But I also have a responsibility to love them, spend (fun) time with them, and teach them some basic values. I don't think the government ought to do this, nor do I think they ought to punish me if I fail to do it. Yet I think the social fabric would be in tatters if parents stopped loving their children and teaching them some kind of values.

Interesting example. I think it is problematic because there are very good reasons why a state will never have to coerce people into loving their children. Trying to imagine what it would be like if people didn't love their children is to ask what the consequences to social arrangements would be if humans were different. Thats beyond the scope of this discussion, no? Especially as it would challenge the validity of your asserting that non-loving parents would threaten social cohesion.

I suppose what I am saying is that, in my social contract argument, I am happy to let the state be an instrument of last resort - responding only to failure, rather than anticipating problems. I suspect that I would probably see more failures than most and less than others, but it strikes me as a good principle despite the arguments to be had over the details.

Sobek: Indeed. Don't find it remotely convincing, though.
 
 
Lord Haku
08:48 / 19.12.03
The role of the government is basically to protect us, and listen to what we (the people) want. Contrary to being above the people, the government should technically serve the people. Okay, so the people should work in order to pay that government, but then the goverment should make sure that the people recieve adequate payment in return, and listens to what they want.

However, this isn't really happening. Although Prime Minister Blair recently went on some "Big Conversation" thing, I as a British citizen don't really believe he'll take any of this on. People protested against the war, and yet the PM sent our forces to war regardless. Although I'm most certainly glad that Saddam Hussein has been removed from power and his people are a step closer to Democracy, I don't like the way in which people were killed in order to achieve that goal.
 
  
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