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Underground > Film, TV & Theatre >

Clone Wars: better than Lucas?

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08:15 / 19.11.03

so i've seen a couple of episodes of clone wars now. the only real problem is the format: five minutes, while seeming like a neat and poppy idea in a MTV kinda way, is actually pretty frustrating. Just as the episode begins to open up and get going it finishes and you've got to remember to be there the next day. [remember when t.mallett and magic the budgie would split a single ep of the transformers cartoon over an entire week of shows, five min snippets a piece? it's that sort of frustrating. waccaday-waccaday-waccaday]

but for the fleeting moments that you're lost there this is an amazing show. the detail and baroque flourishes of samurai jack have been flattened out, and the cartoonisation of the props and characters from the movies has been done rather well, giving a sweet kidsy feel to the horrendous end of the galaxy style warriorship we're seeing. it's star wars remember, so there's death - aliens chopped up and flattened and strangled, it's not just robots getting it here. the voices and atmosphere are very faux serious, there's a scary new sith witch about but we're happy because we see her despatching Gamorreans and Wampas and it's just damn damn cool.

so y'know the faith has been shaken pretty bad the last five years, i'd practically given up. year after next i'm prepared for another, final disappointment. but at least the journey there, thanks to tartakovsky and co, need not be so force-destroying. any other opinions?

13:59 / 19.11.03

the detail and baroque flourishes of samurai jack have been flattened out
I like the baroque flourishes of Samurai Jack. Is this clone wars thingummy available in the UK yet?
My favourite quote from Weeping Gorilla, a comix character from the eponymous comic within Promethea, is on a billboard in the background of a panel;
'Maybe we expect too much from George Lucas'
nuff said.

14:43 / 19.11.03

I believe that the original 3 Star Wars movies rock and Episodes I and II suck. I also believe that Episode III will most likely suck. And I don't think I feel this way because I expect too much from George or that I only feel strongly about the original movies because I was a kid when they came out. Quality is quality, lack of quality is lack of quality. That's my two cents on it. I feel that Lucas has lost it in a very Chris Claremont or John Byrne kind of way. Used to be good, now sucks. It happens. Ah, well.

The Clone Wars things seem halfway decent but it's hard for me not to think of them as marketing for what is the modern Star Wars corporate machine.

18:31 / 19.11.03

First of all someone needs to put the actual title "Clone Wars" up on this thread so we don't have multiple threads on the same subject. Hell, it's not even in the topic abstract...

Ok, I've seen them all and at first I thought it was pretty retarded... It was just charmless stormtroopers shooting at robots... and worse of all Anakin's voice actor is just wrong... My teeth wanted to shatter when he spoke. He's, believe it or not, worse here than he is in the movies, which I think they did on purpose to either a) spoof on him a bit or b) make the movie Anakin seem better by comparison.

BUT I have to say after the underwater Jedi fight and the wannabe Sith vs. Count Duko (who just kicked her ass) was stupendous. This thing's actually getting better with every chapter.

It's not as good as Samurai Jack but when released on DVD finally seen in one sitting it'll be the best Star Wars to come out since Empire Strikes Back (IMO). Who ever came up with the idea to split this up is just retarded though... they should have released this in theaters.

11:40 / 20.11.03

q - of course you/i/we/they love the baroque flourishes in samurai jack, i just wanted to draw attention to the fact that they're going for a more saturday-morning cartoon feel for this one. the manga and magoo influences are missing in clone wars, you'll surely agree.

as for the shorts being advertorial rather than product, well, my eyes still fall upon them. that kind of distinction means nothing to me, especially wrt star wars, which was always about films, comics, toys and adventure games in the playground as a continuous entity, not the discrete quality of the films in isolation. hence my overriding current feelings that the whole sorry sack of shit has been ruined by the last two films and the next one, which will be rubbish too.

imp - the words 'clone wars' are in the first line of the first post, but go ahead and pop them in the abstract if y'like. i agree with you that this is the best stir werz guff since empire.

i too am thinking the portrayal of annie is intended to be irritating. it's kenobi who's the real champ of the show.

right: there's so much that for me is perfect ur-star wars about this show: in the same way that the death star battles recall the fun and spills of ww2 dogfights, so is the cartoon taking the clone wars and giving the battles a medieval spin. we see the best use of speeder bikes since rotj - they're like cavalry chargers and the best weapon to use on one is a laser lance....

blimey-when geeks turn into five year olds again. sorry

12:48 / 20.11.03

Totally with on the marketing angle. SW was always one big feast of merchandising - who cares?

Yep, am liking Clone Wars. Saw a bunch of episodes over me mams at the weekend (Q, check Toonami) and luved 'em - 'specially the underwater battle - as much as you can love a 5 minute short.

As for the vocals - there seems to be very little speech in general.
Didn't Lucas once say that he saw the Starwars movies as silent films?

10:53 / 19.04.04

saw the final episode at the weekend, the one where they introduce general grievous, the slightly-cyborg jedi reaper who's the new baddy in episode 3. wow.

he's got an army of toughest-yet battle droids who just sort of stand behind him looking hard. he himself is a prototype vader crossed with elements of ig88 and fx7, like a walking talking omni-purpose lawnmower with lightsabres. it can even hold them in its feet, for whirling three-sabre action, and enjoys taunting its enemies. in his opening appearance he takes on six jedi masters at once, including, i think, the one from the council with the pointy head and wispy beard.

and this baddy just wipes them out in as spectacular a way as i can imagine, like they're nothing. the only thing more satisfying than watching the baddies get it is watching loads of heroes get it first. lucas will look so bad now unless the scenes in the movie come close to how good they were in this here 'toon, that i can't help but feel a glimmer of hope - he'll HAVE to rise to the challenge now.

and then the cat burst in carrying a partridge. a partridge?

overall a very good cartoon and top addition to star wars canon. the bit where mace windu takes on an army of droids single-handed gives me real hardon for his eventual death scene. i love star wars me.

10:59 / 19.04.04

me too. look, he's got his own site already:

http://www.generalgrievous.net/

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

12:24 / 19.04.04

General Grevious will singlehandedly restore balance to the Star Wars franchise. I mean if he looked this badass in chunky Genndy lines, imagine what ILM is going to do with him.

IMAGINE.

And that Mace sequence was astounding.

Keith, like a scientist

12:33 / 19.04.04

I liked it a lot. I only watched a couple on TV as they came out. Watched the vast majority of them as Quicktime movies, and I think it made me like it more than most people. If you are able to watch a bunch of them in a row, it connects a lot better. I can't wait to watch a full hour long "movie" of this when it comes out on DVD.

I've been saying for awhile that Sam Jack is the most intense action cartoon there is. Gennady is truly a master of creating hyper tension and delivering with a very energetic sequence of fighting. He was perfect for animating lightsaber duels and whatnot.

Loved this. Grievous was a little bizarre, though. Seemed a little goofy, but I'm trying to picture him done by ILM in a live action setting, and can see how it's going to work really well.

miss wonderstarr

12:44 / 19.04.04

I thought General Grievous was going to be the final nail in the coffin of SW credibility, but I'm happy if I'm wrong.

I haven't seen any of these cartoons. Are they available to buy, or anywhere online?

I assume there's some question as to whether this Clone Wars thing is proper canon...the Droids and Ewoks animation wasn't, thankfully, and if it's not SW canon then I'm reluctant to applaud this version for rescuing the mythos -- because it's not the "real" mythos.

Part of me at least says that Star Wars can't be rescued as a concept by something that's essentially on the Expanded Universe level of canon; it has to stand or fall on the live action trilogies.

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

13:53 / 19.04.04

It's 100% Canon and the final resting place for that big headed Jedi from I and II. Unless he somehow survived, which I doubt.

I'm pretty sure that bald Sith will show up in III and I wouldn't be surprised if they make vague reference to a previous meeting, the one shown in Clone Wars.

I think Grevious, while a bit goofy in the cartoon, is the natural extension of how bad ass those Droidekas were the first time you saw them unfold in I. He's that times a zillion.

Oh, I cannot wait for Episode III.

miss wonderstarr

15:10 / 19.04.04

Well, I will trust you on that canon thing. It sounds a bit off-beam to have a narrative in a totally different format, with a totally different visual style, serve as an official fill-in between live-action film episodes. After all, I don't think Caravan of Courage, Droids, Ewoks and the Holiday Special are regarded as canon.

However, Lucas has been bending the canon rules a fair amount in more recent years, bringing that Twi'lek Jedi chick from the EU into Episode II for a start.

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

16:00 / 19.04.04

Yeah. All those things you mentioned were clearly out of canon and never could have featured anything that would have approached importance to the main story of the trilogies. Clone Wars is basically supposed to fill in the gap between II and III, which is a real-time gap of three years.

miss wonderstarr

16:06 / 19.04.04

Yeah. All those things you mentioned were clearly out of canon and never could have featured anything that would have approached importance to the main story of the trilogies.

In the nicest possible way, this is a bad example for your argument because the Holiday Special featured a cartoon introducing Boba Fett -- exactly what we're talking about with the Clone Wars animation.

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

17:15 / 19.04.04

Yeah, but what was he doing? I think the content is more important than the format. Just because the novelization of Episode II is technically canon, it does not make every EU novel canon.

Clone Wars featured Obi Wan and Anakin fighting battles that resulted directly from decisions made in Episode II and that will have a huge impact (introducing General Grevious, a major antagonist and not just a background Jedi) on Episode III. It's pretty clearly canon even if it wouldn't be included in the final box set of all six movies as a critical part of the story (as Lucas didn't write it). That being said, I think it's the closest thing yet released by LucasFilm to an actual Episode as far as importance.

miss wonderstarr

21:12 / 19.04.04

Yeah, but what was he doing? I think the content is more important than the format. Just because the novelization of Episode II is technically canon, it does not make every EU novel canon.

Well, I think he was hunting bounty.

You're right that format doesn't dictate canon, of course. The comic book adaptation of Empire Strikes Back was presumably canon -- the continuing comic book episodes about Lando and Chewie looking for Han with Jaxter the Trix Rabbit or whatever was not.

Clone Wars featured Obi Wan and Anakin fighting battles that resulted directly from decisions made in Episode II and that will have a huge impact (introducing General Grevious, a major antagonist and not just a background Jedi) on Episode III.

If Grievous hadn't been taken into Episode III, I would strongly dispute the cartoon's place in canon. The Ewok animation followed on from Episode VI; The Holiday Special followed on from Episode IV. Continuity from a canon source to some spin-off doesn't make the spin-off canon. Continuity from the spin-off back to the official source is a much better bet.

Even so, this is arguable. (I'm trying to recall old TheForce.Net debates here...)

The Outrider was featured in the Episode IV Special Edition. Does that make Shadows of the Empire canon, or just the ship? If SoTE is canon, are all EU novels canon, or just that one because it walks a semi-official line? So is Xizor canon?

That Twi'lek Jedi was spotted by GL in some Dark Horse comic and brought into Episode II because she looked cool. So are all Dark Horse comics canon, or just that one, or just that character in that specific episode?

ETC. Fair enough, I broadly agree with you and am only disputing because it's fun to talk about SW trivia.

miss wonderstarr

22:45 / 19.04.04

I have seen Episode 20 now and I agree with the gushers above.

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

11:51 / 26.04.04

A lovely, lovely man at my work just gave me a CD of both seasons... I've just watched the first 10.

I did a search cos I was about to start a thread along the lines of "well, the last two Matrix movies were shit... but the tie-in animations were cool. Is this the same thing again?" But I found this one. So consider that question asked.

I'm loving them so far... (I think I've become UBERGEEK... I've spent the last half-hour pondering the likelihood of the people that do the Total War PC games doing a Clone Wars one... I think it was the lances that did it...)

Art-wise, I love the portrayal of the characters- c'mon, they're big, bold and brash stereotypes, so why NOT go halfway down the road to caricature?

Story-wise... well, yes, most of it is just robots and clones blowing each other up. But given the script quality of recent Star Wars stuff, this is a welcome relief. And the script IS a lot better than that in Eps 1 & 2...

The Sith witch is cool... in fact, the only character who I think suffers from the cartoon treatment is Dooku... cos you can't get better than Christopher Lee. I don't care WHO's drawing you.

Hmm. Maybe Season Two (which I'm watching later today after a brief pub interlude) will horribly disappoint me. In which case, I'll be horribly disappointed. So far, though, I'm thinking Clone Wars and the game Knights of the Old Republic are keeping Star Wars alive (for me, anyway... possibly not commercially) far better than Menace and Clones did...

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

15:28 / 26.04.04

And I just watched 11-20.

Colour me gushing.

Have I said "whoah!" yet? Cos if not, I say it now.

Yotsuba & Benjamin!

17:08 / 26.04.04

Yeah, I was gonna say. The second half blows the first out of the water. While the first ten were a batch of fun Jedi Tourism Films, the second half is all about very elaborate, very boner inducing set pieces, my unabashed favorite being the Mace Windu slap down. I think that everything that happened in those three episodes was exactly what I wanted to see, exactly when I wanted to see it.

"Ooh! Ooh! Turn that Droid into microscopic bits! Yes!"
"Ooh! Ooh! Get your lightsaber back! Yes!"
"Ooh! Ooh! Take a swig of water from that kid and then disappear! YES!"

Best ever. That's really what the essence of Star Wars is. At its best, it is the most accomodating entertainment in the history of man.

"Hey, George, can we see a Jawa next time that kick ass Podracer shifts gears? O Tay Dee!"

"You know, George, I loved Last Crusade. I'd forgive every single annoying thing about Jar Jar Binks if you had a sequence with him and a tank, turning the tide of the battle. Thank you. Thank you very much."

"One last thing. C3PO. Can you have him simply existing as much as possible, as he is the most delightful creation of all time. Thanks, dude. I really appreciate it."

That's why I'll never understand people who bash the Prequels. It's just raised the bar for badassery. You expected innovation? Ha! Star Wars is pandering at its very best and most innocent. I guess you must have missed how bad ass it was when Obi Wan flipped his lighsaber 360 degrees in the middle of his fight with Darth Maul. Perhaps, also, you were asleep when YODA got into a FIGHT.

I don't get it. Luckily, I don't have to. I'm having too much fun watching the Podrace for the thousandth time.

Keith, like a scientist

22:19 / 26.04.04

"Perhaps, also, you were asleep when YODA got into a FIGHT."

Exactly. Some people say it's silly looking, but my mouth was open as far as it could be...

Most awe-inspiring scene in all of SW to me.

Ok...off topic over.

Clone Wars:
It was pretty damn badass, I agree. I was a bit disappointed with Grievous, but I believe I can see how it's going to work as CGI, and it makes me excited.

Anakin vs. Sith Witch was brutal brutal fun, as was Mace getting ridiculously medieval on all those droid asses. Holy Hell.

Wasn't a big fan of the big lance guy in the first season, but really enjoyed the entire covert ops stormtroopers. That was war!

Cool cool cool.

The Tower Always Falls

00:12 / 27.04.04

I don't see a link to the episodes so Here they are.

I think they worked best when they were saddled with the least ammount of craptastic George Lucas plot. I yawned whenever Anakin or Obi-Renton were on screen (especially if they ever spoke), and the Amidala episode was painful. But man, you have to give respect to a show that makes STORMTROOPERS look marginally badass. Some truly brilliant moments in there. I absoultely adore the stand-off scene between Anakin and Sith-Witch with the rain sizzling on their lightsabers.

And yes. Mace=bad mutherfucker Jedi. Made Yoda look like a fucking muppet. Wait...

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

06:12 / 27.04.04

Don't get me wrong- I enjoyed the prequels (Clones more so than Menace)- but they weren't actually all that good.

Clones DID have some wonderful things- Yoda! Fighting! Christopher! Motherfuckin! Lee!... the fight in the rain with Jango on Geonosis... the Fifth Element-style flying traffic chaos on Coruscant... but it also had the most poorly-written SW script yet.

But yeah, back on-topic- have I said "whoah!" yet? I think I might watch 'em all again today.

13:22 / 26.07.04

revenge of the sith apparently, dropped here because this is the best star wars thread we have. mister stoat, how how how can i get a copy of those clone wars cds? i am from somerset you know, have been to the quedam centre and everything...

14:22 / 26.07.04

Do I still believe? In a word? No.

and...

We need Lawrence Kasdan.

02:51 / 27.07.04

I enjoyed the hell out of Episode 2.Like all the stuff Birdie mentioned. When you've got Mace Windu, doing a somersault off the balcony, while Jango's trying to fry him with a flame thrower, and he's simultaneously deflecting blaster shots with lightsabers, well fuck, that pushes all of my bliss buttons.

The cartoon shorts were fantastic as well. In fact the whole Clone Wars multimedia effort has been top knotch. Even the comics have been of a pretty high quality, and that's pretty remarkable, because SW comics tend to be pretty crappy. Durge (the robot lance wielding guy) is much more prominent in the comics, and he ain't too bad a villian.

But this is what's giving me real hope for Episode 3. You could consider this spoilers, but seeing as how they've got it up on the website, I'd say they're not really.

After three long years of relentless fighting, the Clone Wars are nearly at an end. The Jedi Council dispatches Obi-Wan Kenobi to bring General Grievous, the deadly leader of the Separatist droid army, to justice. Meanwhile, back on Coruscant, Chancellor Palpatine has grown in power. His sweeping political changes transform the war-weary Republic into the mighty Galactic Empire. To his closest ally, Anakin Skywalker, he reveals the true nature of power and the promised secrets of the Force in an attempt to lure him to the dark side.

I'll take that.

ONLY NICE THINGS

07:23 / 27.07.04

What? FUCK! You mean, Annakin's going to be corrupted by the Dark Side, and the Republic is going to become a galactic empire?

STEAMWHISTLEFUCK!

I had no idea. Well, book me a ticket for the first eight showings.

Sorry, but I don't understand why this should make the film more desirable, or less likely to be shit. Didn't we already know all this?

STOATIE LIEKS CHOCOLATE MILK

07:45 / 27.07.04

Well yeah, but it's the next instalment in the drip-feed that'll get me frothing at the mouth to see the movie when it comes out. It's like when Christmassy stuff starts going up for the first time.

And yes... I am fully prepared for the fact that EpIII's likely to be shit. But, goddammit, that beardy fucker's got me by the balls and I WANT TO SEE IT NOW!!!

01:06 / 28.07.04

What makes it desirable? Obi-Wan vs General Grievous, that's what makes it desirable. That's the main event. Both of the prequels have had excellent fight scenes, and I expect no less from this one, and really that's what we like to see in Star Wars: people trying to dismember and kill each other with lightsabers, the most ultra-violent weapon there is.

14:47 / 29.07.04

I just read that the final touches to epIII are being put together from a secret special effects studio housed in George's goiter. A thousand and eleven jumbo soda's are being consumed by the hour by the man to ensure that the goiter remains at the requisite size to hold fourteen actors and 7 million effects shots. It ends with a lumber jack shirt being hoisted as a flag over the parking lot of Fox's studio, and a lumbering Lucas clawing his way out of a lava pit with a strangly neat beard, wearing a cheap tiwanese knock off mask of Mark Hammil just after the car crash.

Every time I see anything Star Wars related, it just highlights how good Empire was and how bad all the rest of the films have been.

13:56 / 18.04.05

These Clone Wars cartoons better than Lucas? HELL YES. I just saw the DVD for the first time and this is really good stuff! Feels cinematic, feels like Star Wars, except it's GOOD. Lucas could (and should) learn a lot from these guys.

I'm sure it would be weird watching these as little 5-minute segments, but all together on a DVD it works great.

14:00 / 18.04.05

I'm reading my guarded, cynical stance taken above early in this thread and this cartoon has totally won me over.

Our Lady Has Left the Building

14:47 / 18.04.05

Cheap and nasty. Very nasty.

15:11 / 18.04.05

uh, what's cheap and nasty?

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