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Practical, political parenting - birth and rearing

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
17:52 / 16.11.03
White people have a responsibility to work consciously against institutionalized racism and white privelege, and yes that begins with discussing these things, at length, with our children. My four-year-old can't read or write, but he already knows what racism and white privelege are, and this is partly because we live in a mixed household--these topics are present for us every day.

It doesn't mean she's a bad person, but it does mean that she has a responsibilty to unlearn her behavior and teach her child about these issues also. Unconscious racism is still racism. It is still an expression of the current racist power structure and does not actively work to change it.


This passage comes from thius thread about the use of the term "red Indian" and other "non-PC" terminology, and I think it probably suggests that the space exists for a thread on children, the creation and rearing of them.

To start at the beginning, parturition. For a long time, of course, child-creation was a bastion of the straight and the physically able. Do you think that the greater availability of technology to offer children to groups not usually able to conceive, or the emergence of social structures in which gay (for example, although one might as well try disabled, mixed-race, unmarried or single) people can have children. What does this mean for the term “parent”?

Then again, why would one even become a parent? Nothing, after all, eats carbon footprint like a Westerner, and one can very easily import young workers who have the advantage of not costing anything to raise and lower expectations.

Assuming one has gotten over these obstacles, and is the proud owner of a neonate, what then? The passage above is sure to tell its object that she is not a bad person. What it does not say but makes pretty clear is that, in this particular, he is a bad parent, and should thus be taking action to remedy this failing. Now, I realise that we are unlikely to get many people standing up and admitting to being bad parents, but to turn it around, what makes a good parent? What should a parent be doing to ensure a successful parenting process, and how do the “politics of parenting” (a phrase from the previous thread) come into it?

Another angle might be something else raised over there – “alternative” parenting. That is, going back to the people for whom social structures on childhood are still changing. How have people found that their alternative lifestyles have affected their approach to or experience of parenting?
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:20 / 16.11.03
You want to be careful with bringing up your kids- its fine to teach em not to hurt people, but be careful of concrete rules- like for example a lot of religious peeps bring their kids up to be religious- this messes up a lot of kids cos they follow the *rules of the religion* which arent as good as following the *rules of not being a prat*.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:20 / 16.11.03
"Don't hurt people" *is* a concrete rule.
 
 
Guy Parsons
22:20 / 16.11.03
There was an interesting study done - the Colorado Adoption Project I think it was called (mentioned in The Tipping Point) - which suggested that parental influence is minimal. Basically, both adopted and non-adopted children were in some ways similar to their birth parents, while the adopted children were not significantly similar to their adoptive parents (any more so than a random adult.) So the only similarities in personality that come from parents seem to be genetic rather than learnt.

That said, it did concentrate on personality, rather than value-systems and beliefs and the like - whether the same theory applies is open to question.
 
 
Lurid Archive
23:05 / 16.11.03
"Don't hurt people" *is* a concrete rule.

Moral absolutism, Haus?

Not sure I have much to contribute, not being a parent, although I have seen parenting up close without being the recipient of it. Let me try on the second part. My tentative and rather banal thought is to respect the difficulty of parenting and of being a child. I somehow doubt that a heavy handed confrontation of important issues is more effective than a lead by example. Its old fashioned and traditional, I know, but thats the kind of guy I am.

Kids deal best with issues when it occurs to them that there is, to them, a visible issue at stake. Verbally confronting such things isn't always best.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
23:07 / 16.11.03
Moral absolutism, Haus?

Taxonomy.
 
 
Jack Fear
23:18 / 16.11.03
Kids deal best with issues when it occurs to them that there is, to them, a visible issue at stake. Verbally confronting such things isn't always best.

Precisely. It also doesn't hurt to know learn a thing or two about a child's cognitive and emotional development, and pitch your lessons in an age-appropriate fashion. Speak to each according to hir understanding, and all that.
 
 
bitchiekittie
00:40 / 17.11.03
I'm going to verrry hesitantly tiptoe into this thread and attempt to give a semblance of an answer.

parenting, of course, doesn't come with an instruction manual, and is an ongoing learning process for everyone involved. you go about it with certain ideals in mind of course, and you hope you're a quick enough study to figure things out at a fast enough pace to keep up your end of the deal.

bad parent(ing) is a harsh and scary term that I think should be employed very carefully. there are no hard and fast rules about how many errors a parent can make before a child is transformed into an irrevocably ruined member of society. it’s not like being a “bad doctor”, where you got to study and practice for years before you were let loose on the general public, there are easily readable signs that you aren’t doing a good job, and you can simply withdraw from the profession if you (or others) don’t think you’re in your element. in parenting, although there are signals to be read, you still often don’t really know how good you’re doing until the job is over; and even then, it’s still quite a bit up to luck.

as for what you teach your child, my opinion is that kids learn how to deal with life from watching the people in their environment. and that parents need to, from infancy, utilize books, toys, and other kid-friendly tools to introduce people, ideas, and situations that won’t be present in their day-to-day lives.

for me personally, books were an easy way to get into topics that weren’t so easily broached. now that she’s older and is capable of gathering more and more information from outside of her immediate environment (and outside of my control), we talk about things in a very casual manner, as they come. no subject is EVER off-bounds.
 
 
bitchiekittie
00:45 / 17.11.03
also, you don't start off with the politics. it has to be about the little things, like empathy, compassion, tolerance, gratitude, love. you start there, very early, and if you keep up on it, it's very likely that the rest will come in time.
 
 
Quantum
10:26 / 17.11.03
Whilst appreciating the need to educate your kids about racism etc. I would be hesitant to place too much importance on it. As others have said in this thread (and I'm sure more will) it's much more important to nurture them and show them how to be loving, compassionate and all the other desirable adjectives.
Not only will tolerance and understanding lead to not being racist etc. (attitudes often copied from parents or caused by resentment, hatred & fear) but teenagers often rebel against their parents' ideologies. Drumming political rhetoric into kids at a young age will more likely put them off than train them into acting correctly.

Hm, I'm not expressing myself too clearly. I think you should lead by example, and raise a nice person, rather than trying to instill specific ideologies into them. Seems like most people agree.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:02 / 17.11.03
I would have thought the trick was to make sure that your kids learn to think. If they understand the need to inform oneself and to take responsibility for the consequences of their lives, they'll pretty much think their way through most problems, and they won't regard you as a doctrinaire lunatic. It's also possible they'll form opinions wiser than your own. Which is, when you think about it, the point.
 
 
grant
17:14 / 18.11.03
I would have thought the trick was to make sure that your kids learn to think.

Heheheh. Of course.

How?
 
 
Olulabelle
11:57 / 19.11.03
Let me tell you a story.

It’s a story that can be interpreted very differently, depending on your opinions of child rearing, and parental behaviour.

When I had my child I had post natal depression. My baby had colic. Colic is uncontrollable, extended crying in a baby who is otherwise healthy and well-fed. I walked up and down the road I lived in for extended periods of time, I bounced, I patted, I cuddled, I breast-fed, I sung, I rocked, and then I did it all over again. My husband did too. One day after a period of around 5 hours of my son’s crying, after I had had no sleep at all that night, I felt so angry with my son I really thought I was going to hit him and I couldn’t trust myself not to.

So I locked him in his room, put the key in my car, sat in a room at the other end of the flat and rung my Mum. She drove 50 miles straight away without asking why or questioning me and when she got there I told her where the room key was, she got my baby and took over for a bit so I could sleep. So, the baby ended up OK, and I ended up OK.

You see, I think that story shows that I am a good parent. (I also think it shows my Mum to be a good parent.) My health visitor at the time thought it was the right thing to do. But you might not. You may think that I am a bad parent because I nearly lost my temper, or you may think I am a bad parent because I left my baby on his own in a room for an hour. But what would you have done? You see there is no right or wrong. With children, we can only do what feels right at the time we are faced with the problem, there are often problems, and many of them will not be experiences you have had before.

I'd be interested to know who here (other than Bitchiekittie and Grant) has children, and whether or not people feel they can effectively contribute to a thread about parenting without actually having had a go at it.

I ask this because it seems to me that parenting is one of those 'best laid plans' and all that. Everyone thinks they know how to do it, everyone thinks they know all the answers, what not to do wrong, the right way to do things. But I think most of peoples initial parenting ideals are actually just reactive. We parent in response to the way we were parented. We make statements. Such as:

Statement No. 1 – I will not react that way when I have children.
Statement No. 2 – I will allow my children all the freedom I did not have as a child.
Statement No. 3 – I will bring my children up in the same way as I was brought up, after all it never did me any harm.
Statement No. 4 – I will never make my children do x because when I was made to do x as a child I found it extremely upsetting.
Statement No. 5 – I will always give reasons for and explain rationally and sensibly why I am asking for something to be done. I will never say ‘Because I said so.’

Statement No. 5 is mine, because as a child that sentence used to infuriate me. So I try very hard to explain things; “you can’t scoot across the road because you might slip and fall off into incoming traffic. It isn’t safe.” But have I ever said “Because I said so.”? Of course I have! I say it all the time when confronted with the “why, but why, but why, why” repetition that is inherent behaviour in all children. I can answer sensibly and rationally about six times, and then I revert to the tried and tested ‘Because I said so”.

I give you this example as a way of showing you that you can study and learn and plan and predict ‘good’ parenting behaviours but however open minded, patient, gentle, kind and clever you are there comes a point when you will get cross, be brusque, give an unplanned or simplistic answer where perhaps you would imagine you might gently explain, and this doesn’t IMO in any way make you a bad parent. However good you may think you are, children can frequently be extremely frustrating. That’s the nature of being a child and they can’t help it, but it can still be waring sometimes.

Children succumb to the ‘naughty temptation’ that adults have learned to repress. This sometimes makes us (even as adults) frustrated. How many parents have you heard asking children to grow up? If 95% of the time I react to my child as I would wish, but for 5% of the time I lose my temper or don’t give him enough attention, or say ‘Yes dear’ when he tells me something but I am not really listening, does that make me a bad parent? No. It just makes me human.

If I make a mistake, and make a remark in front of my child which I then find out is offensive does that make me a bad parent? No, I don’t think so, but other people do, as was evident in the Red Indian thread. Everyone has a theory for how you should bring a child up, and the people who are the most vocal about it are often the ones who don’t have children.

You could ask what, as far as our society is concerned, the key 'rules' of parenting are.

Well maybe these are some of the things we should bring our children up to be:

Thinking
Caring
Kind
Tolerant
Gentle
Diplomatic
Active

And maybe they shouldn’t be:

Unkind
Intolerant
Insensitive
Aggressive
Sedentary

Agreed? Some people would disagree. Some people would say that a certain amount of aggression is a healthy thing. You see, it’s all opinion. Of course there are basic characteristics that we all (I would hope) want our children to have, and I would say that most parenting comes down to basic common sense. We all know it’s wrong to steal, so we teach our children not to. We all know it’s wrong to be unkind, so we teach our children how to be caring and kind.

But lots of basic parenting is also related to fashion. In Victorian times it was seen as correct to leave a baby to cry, and feed it only at specific times. Then fashions changed and we were taught that a baby should be fed on demand. Now fashions are changing again, and techniques such as the Controlled Crying Technique (where you leave a baby to cry for a pre-determined length of time before going to it) are considered ‘right’.

Maybe parenting is like stumbling through a pitch black tunnel leading your child by the hand, and feeling the way with your toes as you go. The best you can hope for is that you get to the other end safely, but in all likelihood you will both fall over at least once along the way. However, if you both come out at the other end all in one piece but with a few scrapes on your knees then I think you’ve done a good job really.
 
 
Olulabelle
12:05 / 19.11.03
Oh, and I realise I haven't really addressed the issue of political parenting, but I thought that was quite enough from me for now!
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
12:06 / 19.11.03
I would have thought the trick was to make sure that your kids learn to think.

Heheheh. Of course.

How?


Probably by encouragement. The same way you'd help them learn to walk or eat with their mouths closed. My brother seems to manage it with all seven of his, scary bugger that he is.

I think by trying to be all the things you tell the kid are admirable, and answering, questioning, thinking out loud.
 
 
grant
21:26 / 19.11.03
The thinking out loud thing does seem to work. Sometimes. Best laid plans and all that.

I do think, as olulabelle implies up there, that an awful lot of it is just being who you think you ought to be and just rubbing off, since the whole thing is a transaction between two people. One of whom has the privilege and the language skills, and the other one who has the lungs and the stamina.
 
 
Quantum
09:48 / 20.11.03
..whether or not people feel they can effectively contribute to a thread about parenting without actually having had a go at it. Olulabelle
I think we can, although I would obviously step back in deference to someone who's done it, same as any other subject. I don't have kids but I know plenty of people who do, I've been a child etc.

More importantly perhaps, the more I think about it and the more thoughts on it I get now, the better a parent I will eventually be.

I see where you're coming from though, it's easy to hold forth about the right way to raise kids and not consider what might happen when you haven't slept for 50 hours or you're sick and the baby doesn't care or despite your best efforts your child bullies other kids or... the difference between theory and practice is rarely so pronounced.

I consider a good parent to be one who does their best, and a bad parent is one who doesn't care. Aiming at 'intelligent, honourable, wise, beautiful and kind' is good, but 'healthy and happy' should be counted a success, and even that is often beyond your control.
 
 
Leap
11:22 / 20.11.03
Firstly, and speaking as someone who has kids, I would like to point out that everyone who lives as part of a community with children, IS a parent. Kids learn from environment and example, thus the way to raise stable, decent kids, is, by and large, to raise them in a stable, decent environment with stable, decent examples from everyone in that environment. That means everyone in that environment taking responsibility for their part of the child’s raising.

Generally this means a requirement for consistency and a lack of hypocrisy in teaching that being a good person is about being part of MUTUAL relationships of honesty, good-sportsmanship, willingness to share (within limits) and forbearance for minor and occasional slights. And this is required of EVERYONE in the community / environment.

Now take a moment to consider the impact of a media that portrays a constant flow of inconsistency and hypocrisy combined with either a representation of “good” being about isolated acts of kindness (which tends to encourage victim-hood rather than “goodness”) or as being irrelevant in a “dog-eat-dog” world…………..
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:36 / 20.11.03
Would anyone care to help me out with "stable" and "decent"? I know what I think they mean, but I suspect they may have a specific meaning with reference to childrearing...
 
 
Leap
07:59 / 21.11.03
You mean you don't think most people whould assume them to be a matter of consistancy, honesty, forbearance, good-sportsmanship, a willingness to share, and a contextualising of their actions within a bigger picture / longer term view?!!
 
 
Quantum
08:10 / 21.11.03
I would like to point out that everyone who lives as part of a community with children, IS a parent
Including the people on the telly? And other kids? Adolescents? Grandparents? It seems to me that 'Parent' is a fairly specific role unless you live in a shared responsibility commune...

Stable and Decent
Leap you are using these in a specific way, just to let you know. For example, I think stable means unchanging or changing slowly, and decent means not a cad or a bounder. You think everyone (or at least most) will assume the same implications as you and that isn't the case, which will lead to confusion and bickering, and then the Leapworld argument round and round...
I agree with your point that we all (as adults) have a responsibility to act in a 'correct' manner around children, and the media's portrayal of morality is dodgy, but you are Leaping to conclusions (rofl!)

Perhaps a seperate thread on what is Good behaviour? Or social/antisocial behaviour to be more specific to what you consider Good?
 
 
Leap
14:23 / 21.11.03
[b] Including the people on the telly? And other kids? Adolescents? Grandparents? [/b]

Yes.

What I meant was that the behaviour of everyone in their environment effects the upbringing of children and we all have a responsibility to them......you do not have to live in a commune to have shared responsibility; a comm-unity is sufficient

[b]you are Leaping to conclusions [/b]

SLAP!

[b] It seems to me that 'Parent' is a fairly specific role [/b]

And you are being pedantic!

[b] You think everyone (or at least most) will assume the same implications as you and that isn't the case, which will lead to confusion and bickering, [/b]

By that argument we should promote no common behavioural standards as any attempt to do so will lead to [i] confusion and bickering [/i], which is fine if you live on your own, but we tend to be social critters, we humans

No, I think that you'll find that indigenous cultures and polychronic [stop screaming - private joke ] ones have by and large managed fairly well until modern western culture turned up
 
 
Photine
11:47 / 25.11.03
Hello. I'm new.

Here's my twopenny worth...

There are a few important things with children. It is important for them to see what is really you, specifically I mean to show anger when you feel it. I don't mean that I think it's okay to freak out and slam doors over the tiniest things, but with warning (perhaps after the sixth time you've repeated a request politely) then fair enough, shout. I've got a few friends who have big chips on their shoulders about getting angry in front of their kids, but personally, I think it's okay and something that children need to experience. It would take an extreme situation to damage a child in that sense.

As well, although I don't think everybody needs to be a parent everybody must be consistent. All self respecting 6 year olds will try the "Can I have ____? - Mum said it was okay...". It makes life a lot easier for parents if everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet.

It helps if you can cultivate a shared taste in music too.

Other than that I would say that you can use your common sense and try to remember what it felt like to be a child and bear in mind the many reasons children have for doing things other than those they are able to give.

I think it's hard to get it badly wrong, even if you do slip up sometimes.

 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:09 / 25.11.03
Cool, Photine. Welcome aboard. So, how does that feed into your children growing up to be, let's say fairly broadly, part of the soluton rather than the problem, as Quantum put it elsewhere. Are well-adjusted kids by definition going to be kids equipped and eager to fight against the perceived injustices mentioned in the first post of this thread?
 
 
Photine
14:13 / 26.11.03
I don't think you can get your kids to be anything they don't want to be. You can't make their choices for them. But if you lead by example and let them see adults thinking things through and talking about their decisions then that's a good model. I read about a study (not the study itself) that appeared to suggest that kids whose parents were activists of any kind (?) tend to be more politically aware. Your kids are likely to share your political views, but not necessarily. If they don't it's their choice.

I cringe every time my son says he likes doing housework because it makes him money, partly because he gets paid a measly 10p per job and partly because it rubs the wrong way against my lefty instincts.

A really handy thing I do, which my mum started, was to describe situations that happened to me as a kid and ask my son whether he thinks I deserved to get in trouble, or whatever. It really opens doors for thinking clearly about things. There are still some connections he doesn't really get, like, that if you buy meat that has been reared inhumanely then it supports that whole industry - he thinks it's just supporting Sainsbury's. Oh well. He'll get there, and when he does he can make his own choices.

And I really hope I can be okay with that if I disagree with him.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:03 / 27.11.03
So, the best way to raise children to be politically aware and sensitive is not actually to tell them anything, but rather to ask them questions, extending the scope of those questions as they get older?

Sounds fair, but is it feasible?

Also, I'm not sure the idea that you can't make kids anything they don't want to be holds water. This strikes me as essentially making children responsible for how they end up. For example, whilst I have no faith in my ability to make a child happy or well-adjusted, I reckon if I put my mind to it I could make a child unhappy, paranoid and messed up.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
08:50 / 28.11.03
Firstly, I have to say that I'm writing entirely from the 'I have been brought up' perspective rather than the 'I am a parent' perspective, so all of this is hypothetical...

So, the best way to raise children to be politically aware and sensitive is not actually to tell them anything, but rather to ask them questions

I'm not sure that the two are mutually exclusive ; certainly when I was younger, I was asked why I thought something whenever I expressed an opinion, but I was also used to my parents discussing their opinions (and, indeed, justifying them). I'd equate it to what Photine said about not worrying about expressing anger in front of your children -that this won't mess them up, and neither will expressing you opnions in front of them, as long as they know that you are doing either for a reason. Rather than not telling kids things so that they have to think them for themselves, you tell them things so that they have something to think about for themselves. If that makes sense and I haven't entirely miscontrued what was asked...
 
 
Photine
09:22 / 28.11.03
Well okay Haus (may I call you Haus?), in a sense I see what you're saying, but at the same time I disagree. If my son grows up and decides that he has the complete opposite view to me on something I hold dear, then that is his choice, and nothing, NOTHING to do with what he will have been brought up with. I can rest easy knowing that if he joins the BNP this is not because he wasn't brought up in a multi ethnic family with a wide circle of friends from many different cultures. I really think it's good for kids to be exposed to a lot, generally, which is easier in some situations than others, for instance, my family are pretty much the only people my friend's kids will meet who are not Orthodox, which I find shockingly insular and not at all desirable.

On another note, maybe I didn't explain clearly enough - I do tell my son stuff, and I think that's good for him, but if he questions it then that's good too (certainly for me as I have the advantage of being able to explain myself).

Also, why, as a parent would you actually seek to make your child miserable? Of course you could but very few people actually do - for reasons which I hope are self evident. When I say this, I am separating out generally being annoyed at getting told off, teenage angst and really long term adult depression. I kind of thought that this was more about moulding kids in your own political image.

I also swear in front of my son. I continually attempt to reign this in because I don't want him repeating me at school, but in itself I don't have a problem with it because I swear in context. I think that principle can be applied to a lot. For instance, if I swear at politicians, I can generally explain why I do it and the boyo gets to find out a bit more.

My step-aunt and uncle are Labour party members, round election times the canvass, stuff envelopes, put signs up and the rest of the time they lobby on Labour issues. They have done this for many years. About 10 years ago they went to the open evening at their son's school and to their great surprise discovered that there had been a school 'mock election', which he hadn't mentioned, furthermore, it turned out that he was the Tory candidate - BIG surprise. That certainly didn't reflect anything that had gone on in his home.

Gosh I'm rambling - sorry
 
  
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