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The 'Gay Cure'

 
  

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Quantum
11:29 / 14.11.03
Whoops, how embarassing, I forgot to link the phrase BBC News to the actual site in my intitial post, sorry!
I think the majority of those volunteering for the cure were doing so to avoid prison, and if I was illegally gay and faced with prison or psychiatry I would have picked psych as weel.
Unless I knew about the nature of the aversion treatment, then I might take my chances in the clink.

Ganesh, about the psychiatrist- I understand he may have been acting in accordance with the beliefs of the time (wasn't behaviourism rampant?) and might have believed aversion therapy to be effective, but he was (illegally) a gay man doing horrible things to a boy of 18 to cure him of being gay. Surely he must have had some pangs about it? I mean, if you're a gay psychiatrist when it's punishable with imprisonment or treatment, why would you choose to pursue that particular career path? Wouldn't it be a little less weird to choose to work in another branch of the profession?
I'm not demonising psychiatrists or even specifically that one, but a parallell might be a heroin addict doctor choosing to work in drug rehab and giving lectures on how terrible addicts were- doesn't look good, it indicates a lack of compassion (to my mind the most important trait a Dr should have)
 
 
Tom Coates
11:43 / 14.11.03
I'm interested in the sexuality as a continuum thing. I can't remember where I read it, but I think it was in Straight Science that the continuum model didn't really hold up to too much scrutiny - or at least if it did, it was heavily imbalanced towards heterosexuality and different cross-gender. I can't remember exactly what the criteria were for judging this (self-selection, self-description maybe), but it seemed to suggest that there was a difference in curve shape between men and women, with men being (roughly) 2-5% gay, 2-5% bisexual and 90-96% heterosexual. On the other hand women were much more like 2-5% lesbian, 10-15% bisexual and only 80-92% heterosexual. I'm really interested as to whether this is a result of greater anxiety around homosexual activity among men or whether there might be a distinct biological difference in gay 'tendencies'.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:00 / 14.11.03
Maybe the Doctor did have pangs about it, who's to say he wasn't saving his own skin? I think it's a little pointless to think about the Doctor or any Doctor applying this kind of treatment to people because, quite simply, you're never going to know how they feel about the whole thing. He might have been sadistic, it might have got his rocks off, he might have been covering his own back, he might have been checking out the club from a professional point of view. It's not really important.

If someone were sufficiently near the centre of the continuum, it's not inconceivable that they could 'flip' sexually

*smirk* I do that all the time. But seriously, I've known a host of bisexuals who flip from week to week, who consider themselves straight sometimes and gay at other times. I've had months where I've been attracted to one sex and not the other (not so much since adolescence- I put it down to hormones) so whose to say quite a few of us don't flip?
 
 
Quantum
14:11 / 14.11.03
I'm really interested as to whether this is a result of greater anxiety around homosexual activity among men or whether there might be a distinct biological difference in gay 'tendencies'.
I think it's a greater societal acceptance of girl on girl action *smirk* the whole lesbian chic thing means it's cool for girls to hug each other and kiss etc. as friends, and experiment with it in a way that is less acceptable for men. I don't think it's biological, it's more likely the self-reporting bias (he said speculating wildly).
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:17 / 14.11.03
And then of course the status of women has drastically changed over the last 50 years. Status of men... not so much.
 
 
Ganesh
17:25 / 14.11.03
Ganesh, about the psychiatrist- I understand he may have been acting in accordance with the beliefs of the time (wasn't behaviourism rampant?) and might have believed aversion therapy to be effective, but he was (illegally) a gay man doing horrible things to a boy of 18 to cure him of being gay. Surely he must have had some pangs about it?

Well, yes, aversion therapy is, by necessity, "horrible" - and yes, he may well have experienced "pangs". His job was to alleviate the 18 year old's distress (and I note the teenager concerned was neither evading a prison sentence nor compelled to treatment under the Mental Health Act - he was seeking help under his own volition) and if the means to alleviate that individual's distress (apparently) existed, should he have refused it on the grounds that he himself had not undergone aversion therapy?

I mean, if you're a gay psychiatrist when it's punishable with imprisonment or treatment, why would you choose to pursue that particular career path?

Which "particular career path"? Specialist 'sexual problems clinics' are thin on the ground even now, and were practically unheard of in the 1960s. Our Guinness-swigging 18-year-old would likely have been referred to a general adult psychiatrist. Should the gay psychiatrist have refused to take the referral? I don't think so.

Wouldn't it be a little less weird to choose to work in another branch of the profession?

I may be wrong, but I seriously doubt the psychiatrist was setting himself up as an 'ex-gay' specialist; it's far more likely that he was a general psychiatrist using an experimental approach in the treatment of an unusual referral. So, no.

I'm not demonising psychiatrists or even specifically that one, but a parallell might be a heroin addict doctor choosing to work in drug rehab and giving lectures on how terrible addicts were- doesn't look good, it indicates a lack of compassion (to my mind the most important trait a Dr should have)

Well, we've absolutely no evidence that the psychiatrist concerned had 'chosen' to specialise in the modification of homosexuality; as I say, it's more likely that he was tailoring his approach to the specific demands of his patient - who, presumably, was insistent that he wished to be 'cured' of his orientation.

Your equating heroin addiction and homosexual desire is problematic in a variety of ways. Heroin addiction implies the physical dependence on a particular substance which must be taken in order to avoid unpleasant feelings of withdrawal. It's all-or-none. Homosexual desire, by contrast, varies in degree and may or may not be acted upon. The psychiatrist was encountered in a gay bar: this has little bearing on whether he consciously identified as homosexual or had sex with other men - and there's no indication of the level of his 'dependence'. It's therefore difficult to speculate on his degree of conscious hypocrisy/sadism/lack of compassion.

A more apposite analogy - to my mind - is the headache/pain one I employed earlier. We all experience pain differently, and I prefer to avoid medication and manage my own headaches by drinking plenty of water and waiting for them to subside. If an individual comes to me complaining of agonising migraine and insists I do something about it, am I being hypocritical if I then prescribe an analgesic? Should I attempt to advocate what works for me, or should I go by the available evidence (paracetamol being 70% effective for headache, say)? Would it be less hypocritical - or more "compassionate" - for the migraine patient to be treated by a doctor who has never experienced headaches?
 
 
Ganesh
17:32 / 14.11.03
I think it was in Straight Science that the continuum model didn't really hold up to too much scrutiny - or at least if it did, it was heavily imbalanced towards heterosexuality and different cross-gender.

The criteria here would be of utmost importance, as there are heavy sociocultural pressures to identify as one particular sexuality - ideally heterosexuality. I'd be interested to know how research subjects rated their sexual orientation, how anonymised the trials were, how questions were worded, etc., etc.

Good old Uncle Quentin, in 'The Naked Civil Servant', distinguished between Kinsey-queer and coot-queer, and I think he's got a point. There may well be a sizeable pool of individuals who've had same-sex sexual experiences but identify squarely as heterosexual - and vice versa. I think we're only really beginning to develop the language to talk about sexuality, so the continuum model may just be difficult to describe.
 
  

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