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The 'Gay Cure'

 
  

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Quantum
12:37 / 11.11.03
Damn, look at this from the BBC news site:

In the 1920s, mainstream medical researchers in Germany implanted testicles from corpses into the bodies of homosexual men, usually without their knowledge. The idea was to boost testosterone levels.
Aaah!

In the 1950s and 1960s, behavioural therapy was used to try to "cure" gay men. Men convicted of homosexual acts were routinely given electric shock treatment, hallucinogenic drugs and subjected to brainwashing techniques.
The most common form of treatment was aversion therapy, of the kind seen in Stanley Kubrick's film A Clockwork Orange.

Cripes!

This one poor chap went for the 'cure';

'The psychiatrist gave him a pile of 'dirty' books containing images of nude men and a crate of Guinness to drink.
"For 72 hours I lay in my own excrement and dirt, scared out of my wits," he says. He begged to be let out of the hospital after the psychiatrist told him the next stage of the treatment involved attaching electrodes to his penis.
He went home feeling "dirty, filthy and vile" and bathed for "about eight hours". "About two months later I accepted that I was gay," he says.
Then, by a remarkable coincidence, he says he bumped into the psychiatrist who had treated him a few weeks later - in a Liverpool gay club. "I was furious. I tried to attack him with a broken bottle," he says.'

And after all the horror, it didn't work anyway;

'Although the treatment's advocates claimed a success rate of 70% Dr Glenn Smith, of the Royal Free and University College Hospital, says that of the dozens of gay men he has tracked down in his research not one has become heterosexual after aversion treatment.'


So anyway, my question is Why Guinness? Why make him drink a crate of the black stuff, does it contain hetero-compounds or essence of manliness? Do gay men not drink stout?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:44 / 11.11.03
That's your question?!! I suppose it's just viewed as hardcore beer, not very ladylike, I mean women are meant to drink halves and that's only working class women!
 
 
Bill Posters
12:55 / 11.11.03
i'm under the impression that alchohol of some sort was administered along with the other drug (apomorphine, possibly) to make them physically ill, or extra physically ill, in that aversion therapy kinda way.
 
 
Quantum
12:58 / 11.11.03
Well, obviously my unspoken questions are 'How fucked up are we as a species?' and 'What the fuck were they thinking?' and 'How did they get away with that shit?' and 'How evil was the closeted Psychiatrist to torture other gay men, do you think he got a kick out of it?' and such, but they're all rhetorical.

I know if I drank a crate of Guinness I wouldn't want to shag anyone (and I suspect no-one would want to shag me either...) whether or not they attached electrodes to my penis.
 
 
Quantum
13:04 / 11.11.03
You know a suspicious amount about this Bill...
OK the alcohol to induce vomiting, but why Guinness? Because it makes that horrible black sick for added grossness? Why not Bacardi or Eggnog? Those psychiatrists were weird *he said redundantly*
 
 
Bear
13:16 / 11.11.03
I keep hearing various stories that include crates of Guinness, maybe it was very cheap back in the day...

I think I'd probably be the opposite though, give me crate of booze and I'd shag anything, electrode or not.
 
 
sleazenation
13:23 / 11.11.03
The thing that got me was the sewing extratesticles on guys without them knowing surely there was a moment when the doctor had to come clean - like two seconds after the patient woke up an noticed he had four bolloks!

oddly enough I drink lots of guiness but have never vomited on it, no matter the amount i have drunk (ass opposed to, say, cider).
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:31 / 11.11.03
Maybe they stuck them inside your body. Eugh.
 
 
Jack Vincennes
13:34 / 11.11.03
(nothing at all to do with the topic but...)

I think it's because Guinness lines your stomach as well as getting you drunk, rather than cider in which the alcohol : stodge ratio is rather in favour of the former. My excuse for drinking Guinness when I hadn't had dinner was always "It's like food, really" - and I wasn't sick on these occasions whereas I certainly would have been on almost anything else

(...and now, back to the scheduled programme)
 
 
Bill Posters
13:34 / 11.11.03
oh and also i think Guiness was then marketed with the 'Guiness Is Good For You' slogan, so it may have been the obvious choice for the medical establishment to administer.
 
 
Quantum
14:07 / 11.11.03
Obviously "Guinness is good for your heterosexuality" wouldn't fit on the signs.
 
 
Smoothly
21:47 / 11.11.03
On every level, I find it hard to believe that locking a man in a room, with just beer and gay pornography, is any way to go about putting him off.
 
 
Ganesh
22:05 / 11.11.03
The testicles were probably implanted via an abdominal incision or the like - theory being, homosexual men were deficient in testosterone. Since this was pre-antibiotics, one suspects the experimental subjects quickly developed raging septicaemia...

I'm guessing the alcohol was intended (either in combination with another drug or, in sufficient quantities, on its own) as an unpleasant aversive stimulus which was intended to become linked, Pavlov-style, to feelings of same-sex attraction. Why Guinness? No idea. Maybe it looks especially unpleasant spurting from either end?

As for the individuals who carried out these procedures, the point is that (Nazi 'what happens if I do X?' experimenters possibly excepted) they weren't "evil". I doubt they were even particularly "weird". They were operating within very different cultural parameters: homosexuality was viewed as a serious malady with far-reaching consequences; in many cases, doctors were acting in good faith in response to 'sufferers' pleading to be 'cured'. The likes of aversive conditioning was used not in an attempt to be moustache-twirlingly eeevil but because it genuinely did offer at least the possibility of 'cure'.

One might as well denounce the ancient practitioners of trepanation as malicious torturers. And speaking of trepanation...
 
 
Char Aina
23:18 / 11.11.03
in the one case of the bloke seeing his doctor later in a gay club, don't you think that seems a little wierd? i appreciate all you say about such crazy treatment being a sign of the times, but why wasnt the physician healing himself?

and yes, i am assuming that he was at the club for his own gratification, not for research purposes.
 
 
Ganesh
23:53 / 11.11.03
Well, there's no date attached to that anecdote let alone any sort of backstory, so it's hard to tell. Looking at the bare bones of the scenario, the doctor and his patient may have viewed a homosexual orientation very differently (for religious reasons, say) with the former finding it far more acceptable than the latter. It's perhaps worth mentioning that, in the last decade, I've been referred the (admittedly very) occasional desperate individual asking to be 'cured' of his homosexuality. Society having become more accepting toward gay people in the last twenty years or so (in urban areas, anyway), I've generally encouraged them to try to accept their feelings. In other decades - or other parts of the country - I might well have attempted to help them 'cure' their sexuality, regardless of my happy acceptance of my own. Analogy: I tend to try to 'work through' headaches without medicine but, if one of my patients begs me to ease the searing agony in his head, I'm likely to cave in and offer him an aspirin. Or a paracetamol, or trepanation. Depends on time and place.

Of course, it's possible that the doctor was a hypocritical psychopath who humiliated people purely for kicks and deserved to be threatened with a glassin' - but I'd say that's an equally "weird" conclusion to reach based on the available evidence.
 
 
Char Aina
00:01 / 12.11.03
i hear you.
so, could you ever concieve of a patient whom you would attempt to rid of their homosexuality in your current situation?
i realise it would have to be a pretty extreme case, with a lot of push from the patient; but do you think you would ever be able to aid someone in repressing or erasing a part of them (a part that you are obviously extremely comfortable keeping yourself), even with such pressure?
 
 
Ganesh
00:06 / 12.11.03
No - and not on the basis that I'm a happily paid-up member of the Homo Club either, but because everything I've read suggests to me that attempting to alter someone's basic sexual orientation (as opposed to repressing it to a greater or lesser degree) just doesn't work.
 
 
Char Aina
00:23 / 12.11.03
i suppose your side of medecine is quite used to occasionally following a course of action that does not follow the patients wishes, eh?

'cures' for sexual orientation still get attempted; is there still any part of the medical community that believes that to be a plausible course? (apart from noted nutters) are they laughed out of lancet?
 
 
Jack Denfeld
06:55 / 12.11.03
I've heard that you can get all your required vitamins and nutrients by drinking something like 6 pints of Guiness a day.
 
 
Ganesh
09:40 / 12.11.03
Yeah, psychiatrists not infrequently administer this or that treatment against someone's wishes. There generally has to be some evidence that the treatment's likely to work, though - hence doctors' widespread pissedoffness at attempts to classify antisocial behaviour a medical problem.

And yes, 'cures' are frequently sought for 'ego-dystonic' sexual orientations - not so much homosexuality these days, but those with a paedophilic orientation, for example, are understandably keen to be 'treated'.

I'd say it's generally accepted that, while it's possible to modify the degree to which one acts on one's sexual desires, it's much harder (most would say impossible) to definitively change the nature of the desire itself. There are still small groups of psychiatrists and psychologists who hold firm to the belief that homosexuality can (and should) be transformed. They're typically US-based and allied to the Christian Right (George Rekers, for example, who's been extensively quoted by the Vatican in its recent 'Homosexuality and Hope' document). They'll often make extravagant claims about the efficacy of this or that approach - but when their experimental subjects are followed up long-term, there's little or no evidence that they've been able to sustain their 'heterosexuality'. Dubious at best.
 
 
Ganesh
09:42 / 12.11.03
I've heard that you can get all your required vitamins and nutrients by drinking something like 6 pints of Guiness a day.

If that were true for Vitamin B, alcohol-dependent individuals who stuck to Guinness would never develop memory problems...
 
 
Char Aina
09:51 / 12.11.03
so, what you're saying is, as long as i have marmite on my toast every morning, and an alcoholism based on guiness, i'll be alright?

can i say my doctor said so?
 
 
Ganesh
09:55 / 12.11.03
Your memory will take longer to deteriorate, certainly (assuming you avoid Guinness-related head injuries). Dunno that you'll be "alright", though.

And no, best check with the Barefoot Doctor first. Your kidneys may be massage-deficient.
 
 
Char Aina
09:56 / 12.11.03
 
 
Quantum
10:01 / 12.11.03
It's nearly true. My friend's dad drank only Guinness and ate only fish and chips for a year (for a bet)- got scurvy from vitamin C deficiency. The doctor said if he'd just squeezed lemon juice on his fish he'd have been fine.

Ganesh- from the link it seemed the closet psychiatrist was pretty sadistic, he recorded a tape describing homosexual practices 'In the foulest language imaginable' and forced the hapless 18 year old patient to listen to it, in addition to the gay porn and booze and vomit inducing drugs and then forced him to spend many hours lying in filth. Barbaric enough as a 'cure' for homosexuality anyway, but to do that to someone if you're 'suffering' the same 'disease' displays a level of hypocrisy that's frankly unacceptable- check the link for more backstory (although there's not much). I'm not saying he was a psychopath, maybe he was forced to administer the cure and felt really bad, and had to deal with his illegal (at the time) desires without outing himself etc. but I still have more sympathy for the chap forced to drink the guinness.

Interestingly they claimed a 70% success rate but of the dozens of ex-patients the journo contacted not one had become hetero. Lends support to what you say about sexuality being unchangable, most sources seem now to be saying sexuality is hardwired. So hopefully they'll stop trying to cure it.
 
 
Char Aina
10:08 / 12.11.03
i share your hope, mate.
i doubt it though.
with all the emotional investment in christ and his legions of preachers with their illiterate, bible-loving fans, no one will be giving up the 'cure' anytime soon.

i mean, if we accept that it's hardwired, then we accept we were lied to by jesus about free will.
 
 
Ex
10:15 / 12.11.03
This Might be the most recent snit over cures and their efficacy.

What really annoyed me is that people are presenting this study as a lone voice crying in the wilderness:

Dean Byrd, clinical professor at the University of Utah School of Medicine, said Professor Spitzer's courage had broken a barrier of silence to start a long overdue debate.

"Barrier of silence"? "Long overdue"? I'd be delighted to think that he's been living in some kind of homo-policed corner of science and psychology - in a cave, with his fingers in his fucking ears - but the general societal pressure to "cure" same-sex desire is as old as Croesus and as common as muck.
 
 
Ganesh
10:22 / 12.11.03
I don't think I'd deny that some individual doctors' professional actions might be underpinned with sadism or projected masochism/self-loathing. I'm merely saying it's unlikely to be a clear-cut case of aggressor and victim. Even in the example case (and, fool that I am, I can't seem to locate your link, Quantum), I suspect the lines are likely to have been somewhat blurred. To what extent did the doctor 'force' the aversive treatment onto an unwilling patient? Had the guy been coerced into seeking 'treatment' for his homosexuality or had he requested it?

It's a pretty extreme and horrific-sounding way to address the situation, certainly, but not necessarily that unorthodox; I'm assuming (from your comment about homosexuality having been illegal at the time) that conditioning theories were still in their infancy - so the limits of aversive treatment were probably unknown. The Guinness/porn/shit element is a rather luridly-conceived way to interpret/apply the principle of aversion therapy (why not the standard electric shock?) - but the principle itself was, for the period, reasonably sound.

What I'm saying is, we should be cautious about retrospectively judging this or that procedure - and those who administered it - 'barbaric'. I'm also unable to brand the doctor a hypocrite (or apportion my 'sympathy') without some knowledge of the stakes here. Who was pushing who, and how hard?

I suspect the ridiculously optimistic 70% success rates reflected short-term repression or sublimation of sex drive. Even today, 'ex-gay' programmes in the US abound with glowing testimonies from 'cured' neo-heterosexuals - many find the homosexual identity highly distressing, and really do want to believe - and one might be forgiven for thinking 'wow, this really does work'. Follow them up after five years, though, and things are a little less rosy.
 
 
Char Aina
10:31 / 12.11.03
linkage
 
 
Ganesh
10:31 / 12.11.03
Spitzer's also been quoted in 'Homosexuality and Hope' and, as one of the clinicians who pioneered the 1973 removal of ('ego-syntonic') homosexuality from the DSM, he's been widely portrayed in Christian Right press as a dangerously liberal psychiatrist who had 'come to his senses'.

In fact, his research is - as Spitzer himself readily acknowledges - not quite as idealogy-shattering as it's been painted:

Some conservative commentators therefore argue that he has "changed his mind." This is not true -- Dr. Spitzer remains of the view that homosexuality is not an illness, and believes that "conversion" therapies might work, at best, for only a small minority of GLBT people (he has estimated around 3%).

It is important to understand what Spitzer was trying to establish: he was not trying to determine yet again whether "conversion" therapy can work for everyone (to which the answer is clearly "no") -- to the contrary, he wanted to test whether it can be ruled out as something that never works for anybody. His answer to that very limited question also is "no" -- based on a highly selective look at a small number of people who were the most likely of anyone to report favorable results from treatment.

Spitzer studied 200 individuals (143 men and 57 women) who claimed to have achieved a change lasting five years or more. Most of his subjects were identified by "ex-gay" ministries and therapists -- groups and doctors who have a vested interest in "proving" that change is effective, and who therefore would forward the strongest candidates they could find.

Even with this very select group of persons that "ex-gay" ministries and therapists thought were most likely to substantiate their claims, Spitzer found the following:

71% of the men and 37% of the women reported that they still had significant homosexual feelings.

34% of the men, and 56% of the women, had failed to achieve "good" heterosexual "functioning" (defined to include heterosexual relations at least once a month without the assistance of homosexual fantasies more than 20% of the time).

Spitzer's subjects included many "bisexual" persons -- nearly 30% reported that they were having heterosexual relations "regularly" (and others assumedly were having them less often) at the time they began therapy.

So what about the small number of people who seem to have made real progress? Here the question turns on whether Spitzer's study is reliable, or whether its methodological flaws were fatal. Spitzer's methodology has been criticized on numerous grounds. In addition to the sample bias noted above, Spitzer based his findings simply on 45-minute telephone interviews -- so the subjects did not have any anonymity that might help them candidly report unfavorable outcomes; Spitzer could not assess their credibility face-to-face; and the findings were based entirely on the subjects' self-report (rather than, e.g., physiological measures of arousal), which research has shown is often very misleading. In addition, Spitzer's study has not been subject to any peer review or other normal professional tests of validity. Some therefore believe that the study merits no credit at all.

What is perhaps most noteworthy is what Robert Spitzer says about his own work:

* In describing the study for CNN (May 9, 2001), Spitzer stated that "Our sample was self-selected from people who already claimed they had made some change. We don't know how common that kind of change is. . . . I'm not saying that this can be easily done, or that most homosexuals who want to change can make this kind of change. I suspect it's quite unusual."

* In an editorial to the Wall Street Journal (May 23, 2001), Spitzer stated that "Some homosexuals appear able to change self-identity and behavior, but not arousal or fantasies; others can change only self-identity; and only a very few, I suspect, can substantially change all four. . . . In fact, I suspect the vast majority of gay people would be unable to alter by much a firmly established homosexual orientation."

* Spitzer told the Advocate (July 17, 2001) that "the kinds of changes my subjects reported are highly unlikely to be available to the vast majority" of GLBT people, and that only "a small minority" -- perhaps 3% -- might have a "malleable" sexual orientation. He also charged in that interview that his research was being "twisted by the Christian right."

In short, Spitzer looked at the strongest cases proponents of "change" therapies could put forward, found decidedly mixed outcomes (including some reports of "success" that undoubtedly would have disappeared under more rigorous study methodologies), and concluded that perhaps 3% of GLBT people can achieve sufficient "change" to function heterosexually at least once a month without fantasizing about a same-sex partner more than 20% of the time.


Spitzer's findings have been debated further here.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
11:00 / 12.11.03
Spitzer's subjects included many "bisexual" persons -- nearly 30% reported that they were having heterosexual relations "regularly" (and others assumedly were having them less often) at the time they began therapy.

Now... could that possibly be key? I'd be pretty certain that a vast number of "straight"-identified people, and even a certain number of "gay"-identified people would be capable of being attracted to both (or whatever) sexes, but repress their sexuality so that they believe they are, er, monosexual.

But such people could still easily validate their claims of sexual orientation; if they fancy people of the same sex, they can label themselves as "gay", if they fancy people of the opposite sex they can label themselves as "straight".

There are, of course, plenty of examples of people who have realised their bisexuality. Would it be at all possible to "re-repress" it? If a person has the potential to be attracted to people regardless of sex, could they be conditioned to believe they are only attracted to people of one sex?
 
 
Ganesh
11:05 / 12.11.03
Thanks for the link, Toksik. It would appear that our Guinness-chundering friend "volunteered" for such treatment in his late teens, and "begged" to be (and was) allowed to leave only when electric shocks were mentioned - which suggests the motivation for aversive therapy sprang from he himself. It looks like this took place in the 1950s/60s, when societal attitudes to homosexuality were much more condemnatory, and assuming a 'gay' identity necessarily carried a greater burden of a) risk, and b) self-loathing.

By the standards of the day, it would be perfectly reasonable for a doctor to attempt to help a man in such a situation, using the then-promising new field of aversion therapy. Some of the animal experiments used alcohol as an unpleasant, aversive stimulus, so it's not too difficult to see the logic leap.

As a psychiatrist, I've administered ECT to the severely depressed and prescribed 'dirty' antipsychotic medication with horrible side-effects - both occasionally against someone's will. Today's medical standards deem my actions effective, humane and supported by a body of research evidence. In three or four decades, 'survivors of psychiatry' may well condemn me as barbaric...
 
 
Ganesh
11:16 / 12.11.03
Pingle, I strongly suspect a degree of bisexuality is the key - and when one manages to cut through the welter of agenda-driven spinning on both sides, the researchers themselves tend to think so too.

Homo/heterosexual attraction appears to follow a continuum and it's reasonable to hypothesise that someone could possess, say, 80% Homo Potential, 20% Hetero Potential - dependent, obviously, on circumstances. The number of 'true bisexual' (ie. dead-on 50/50) people would necessarily be fairly small, so perhaps it's not surprising that, in most cultures, we cluster to one or other end of the continuum and nail our colours to a pole.

If someone were sufficiently near the centre of the continuum, it's not inconceivable that they could 'flip' sexually - especially if significant societal pressure were exerted. Spitzer's 3%, while probably in the right ballpark, nonetheless seems something of an overestimate.
 
 
Mourne Kransky
15:33 / 12.11.03
I can think of two people I met way back in my Gay Liberation yoof who'd been through aversion therapy at the behest of their parents, both Americans. Utterly unsuccessful, obviously, or I wouldn't have encountered them in the places I did. In defence of psychiatry, I must report that one guy had then found a better shrink with more enlightened attitudes who had helped him to come out and realise his potential.

Given that the old electroshock route, at best, would be likely to produce a gay man who just couldn't get it up any more, rather than a shiny, happy hetero husband and father, I wonder what happened when the poor sod subjected to this happened to be a sub, practised at SM sex? After all, I know people who get turned on by going to the dentist, like Jack Nicholson in the Roger Corman Little Shop of Horrors.
 
 
Not Here Still
18:04 / 13.11.03
In bizarre synchronicity:

The old advertising slogan "Guinness is Good for You" may be true after all, according to researchers.
A pint of the black stuff a day may work as well as an aspirin to prevent heart clots that raise the risk of heart attacks.

Drinking lager does not yield the same benefits, experts from Wisconsin University told a conference in the US.

Guinness were told to stop using the slogan decades ago - and the firm still makes no health claims for the drink.
 
  

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