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Polyamory

 
  

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Papess
19:52 / 09.11.03
I couldn’t seem to find any threads on “polyamory” (I am sure we will get around to talking about the literal translation of that word later) anywhere in Headshop or all of Barbelith, so here it is. As a side note, I have a suspicion, polyamory never existed before a few weeks ago, hence it was never brought up here at the mighty ‘Lith.

To open the discussion, I am sure we are all going to need some definitions. What defines a polyamorous relationship(s)? Scouring the internet as I have been on polyamory, I have found a few good sites for reference.

The Polyamory Society defines polyamory here as being:

”…non-possessive, honest, responsible and ethical philosophy and practice of loving multiple people simultaneously”

So that is one very general definition and there are many variations of polyamory based on that philosophy. The terminology of this philosophy further breaks down, with terms like: polyfidelity, primaries, secondaries, line marriages… and more, which are given some basic definition here at alt.polyamory’s FAQ. and from Polyamory.com - a comparison between the differences between swinging and polyamory.

This leads to another term “polyfuckery”. Here is the term with a not-so good reputation, as it is often used to describe bad experiences in poorly defined and/or badly communicated “polyamorous” relationships. Even worse usage of this term: someone who is “polyfuckerous” is someone who claims to be polyamorous, but then regretfully, does not heed the principles of polyamory such as - honesty, responsibility and communication. This term is generally an used as an insult. However, “polyfuckery” has also been defined by some as being similar to polyamory, but means intimate sexual contact with many without the emotional intimacy, at least not necessarily. It does not in this case imply someone who is necessarily irresponsible, dishonest or uncommunicative. So there is some conflict on this issue and the term used to describe people who prefer less emotional drama and more action, as opposed to those who feel more comfortable with combining sex intimacy and emotional intimacy. I thought it important to mention this term since by describing what polyamory is not, it helps to define what it is.

Okay, some basic definitions out of the way. I am sure they can be refined, but they will do for a start.

So here are some points of discussion. I am not sure if these will need more than one thread for thorough discussion.


1. Polyamory vs. Monogamy – Merits and deficiencies of both. Can people still be in a monogamous relationship and be polyamorous at the same time?

2. Is “Polyamory” superfluous? Considering most people in general love many people in their lives at the same time, anyway, is this term and philosophy just a mild amplification/ adjustment of the conventional model, by creating an analogous current between all loving relationships? Is this an egalitarian approach to our relationships? If so, is this a realistic expectation of ourselves and others? Is it proper treatment for each relationship to be equalized in interactions and priority? This also begs the question - is “loving behavior”, the same as “love” and/or can love be defined by loving behavior? (Yes, I know…define “loving behavior” yikes!)

3. Polyamory and Evolution – The general consensus seems to be amongst poly-people, that polyamory is the “new love”. Polyamory is a concept that has been mentioned and even proclaimed quite blatantly to be relevant to and even indicative of human social evolution – polyamory being evidentiary of a social evolutionary process - either of natural selection or cognitive evolution (that is still in question for me until further discussion) Is polyamory the next “logical” or reasonable step in the development of human social structure? Another related point to this process that Haus made, “…might be worth thinking about whether polyamory is a development per se or just another thread of interrelation that happens to have been dormant in particular societies…”, might be worthwhile to think about in regards to evolutionary process and possibly whether this is cognitive or natural…but I am in over my head here….

4. Polyamory vs. Ipsamory – Or, the "love for many" (polyamory) and it's relationship to and comparison of, the "love for self" (ipsamory). (Yet another “Haus-ism”. When I couldn’t think of an appropriate relevant term for “love for self” that didn’t imply some sort of inherent defect. Thank you Haus.). This question occurred to me because of the nature of polyamory being that of responsibility. The responsibility to own our emotions, our lives, know our own boundaries and desires… amongst a few crucial points of responsible behavior. This self-owning and responsive behavior to the self is what seems define what polyamory is in the most flawless scenario. In other words, without “ipsamory”, polyamory is not possible. Is it possible to conclude the reverse as well? Perhaps polyamory is just a redundancy in defining social interaction.


I hope that gets the ball rolling at least. Going through all the reading about polyamory, from online groups and personal accounts, books like “Ethical Slut” (Which, mine is hiding somewhere in an unopened box…grr), I am getting a bit cynical about love on all accounts. Polyamory is actually sounding more and more like communism – great on paper (or in theory) but not quite successful in practice. Perhaps love needs a bourgeois-esque revolution to keep it flush – hehehe…

Okay, didn't realise I had wrote all that. If we need to start new threads to discuss this properly, by all means, please do so. Cheers!
 
 
All Acting Regiment
20:14 / 09.11.03
If you love people, thats good. If you sleep around, and the people you sleep around with like it, well, good for you, not something id want to do. If you sleep around and *say* you love those people when you don't, thats bad.

I suppose.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:26 / 09.11.03
Yeah, but that's not really anything to do with polyamory rather than simpel emotional honesty, is it? If you don't sleep around and tell people you love them when you don't, that's also bad, presumably...

Furthermore, Trix (thanks for starting this one, Trix - lots of v. interesting possibilities) would probably question your use of "sleep around". Polyamory and "sleeping around" are, I suspect, not quite the same thing. Most obviously, sleeping around not only does not involve a relationship between the parties, it almost demands that no relationship beyond the decision or desire to have sex exists - thus, we can separate "sleeping around" from "having an affair" or "keeping a lover", which themselves are not I suspect the same as polyamory.
 
 
Papess
21:01 / 09.11.03
Furthermore, Trix (....) would probably question your use of "sleep around".~Haus

Heh. I question everyone's use of "sleep around".

One thing I would like to try and stay away from is just judging polyamory as "good" or "bad". Stating possible benefits and drawbacks, may be a bit more constructive for proper discussion.

And Haus...no problem, it was a pleasure. Thank you for all your help and encouragement.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:05 / 09.11.03
On question (1), I said (in a rather cruel and intolerant way, the shrews admonish me):

On reflection, I realised on the tube last night that monogamy is a lot like 4-4-2 (for those of us in the United States, 4-4-2 is a system for the playing of of "Soccer", or football as the rest of the Universe calls it, in which 4 defenders, 4 midfielders and two attackers make up the formation).

4-4-2 is used by many lower division football teams, because it can through organisation compensate for an absence of individual ability. In essence, two big central defenders of limited technical ability can police the area directly in front of goal, two full backs can police the touchlines and move forward when it is entirely safe to do so, two wide midfielders can apply pressure to the opposition full-backs, two central midfielders can cut out balls through the middle and pass out to the wings, and two strikers can run on to balls and head down crosses for each other. According to the particular abilities of the players available, the system is tweaked, but generally one looks for 2 big centre-backs, 2 small, nippy full-backs, two competent dribblers and crossers, a hardman midfielder and a passing midfielder, a big strong forward and a small nippy forward, with the system compensating for the weaknesses of the players. At lower levels, 4-4-2 is safe and reliable way to use oplayers without the perception, technique or footballing intelligence to make more complex systems like 3-5-2 or the sweeper.

Now, Brazil also often played 4-4-2 during the period of their eminence. There you had a pair of ball-playing central defenders who were able to play intelligent passes across the pitch to set up new attacks, full-backs able to overlap the midfield and provide highly accurate passes infield or dribble past opponenents, wingers with incredible ball skills who could cut out entire defences with skilful passing and running, one central midfielder acted as a playmaking "stopper", combining positional sense with a broad range of passing, the other played in a more advanced role with the responsibility of doing something utterly magical, and the forward were, generally, fast and small with almost prescient awareness of the ball to be able to make perfectly timed runs into unpredictable spaces. A bewildering, enchanting set of interlocking patterns of movement and passing, the Brazillian 4-4-2 resembled its counterpart on the playing fields of England in name only, and yet the basic structure of the system is the same.

So, the point. Done well and skilfully between two emotionally competent people, monogamy is a fantastic and beautiful thing, able to offer different but equally valid arguments for its existence in comparison to all the other intricate and equally beautiful dances available.

On the other hand, if you are a pair of needy, disturbed, childish or just plain dim people, monogamy is probably the way forward because it attempts to minimise the number of situations in which your own resources are pitted against the complexities of the world by imposing an easy-to-follow system.


Polygamy, applying the complementary part of the rede, is very hard to do, and probably should not be attempted except by experienced nd skilled individuals. But what are the profits involved to outweight he difficulties?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
01:39 / 10.11.03
Interesting thread.

I have to say I'm a bit suspicious of 'polyamory', as a phrase. This may be because I first came across it when my father, praise be, donated me his old computer just before he split up with my mother. He hadn't bothered to clear out his IE bookmarks or his downloads, and among the files and sites obviously dear to him were 'Polyamory Australia', 'How To Make Polyamory Work', and some others linking polyamorous relationships to Wiccan communities, paganism, et cetera.

On the other hand I have been a quote unquote practicing non-monogamist, so it's not the idea of sleeping with, or even being intimately emotionally involved with people-other-than-one's-primary-partner that gets me. Nope, it's the whole expectation that everyone *will* be loving and emotionally responsible and mature, all the time. When so obviously (my father springs to mind here) many of them are not. Perhaps all of them are not.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
03:02 / 10.11.03
ooh, interesting thread, Trix. (and eerily managing to do that 'mind-reading trick' in reverse. ta!)

More when I'm less tired but, Haus, and this is a genuine/non-snarky question, how does one become experienced at polyamory without first passing through an inexperienced phase?

(or do you mean that people not experienced at relationships/emotional honesty per se should be wary of heading straight for Polyamory Junction? That perhaps it's something one might graduate onto at some point? on which i think i agree)

Chris, as Haus has pointed out, it's a little more complicated than that when you're dealing with people, emotions, potential for hurt etc.

Have talked about this elsewhere, will dig out stuff and be back.
 
 
grant
03:57 / 10.11.03
On the "social evolution" front, polyamory is nothing new. 150 years ago, they called it "free love" -- whole utopian communities were built around it here in the states, and those notorious Romantics were vaguely supportive of it on the Continent (or so the Shelley publicity machine would have us believe).

It's fun on the Christian boards when the polyamorous Christians pipe up. I think they've been banned now, but they'll be back.

http://www.libchrist.com/ will take you to them.

They queer definitions of adultery, so to speak.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:54 / 10.11.03
Western society has attempted to adopt polyamory a few times. I recall a television programme about a commune which was based entirely on it. Everyone in the mini-society slept with everyone else despite the numerous married or long term couples who lived there and the children who lived within the commune were brought up by the entire community rather than specifically by their parents. An interesting experiment but one that significantly collapsed and thus doubts the idea that this is our next evolutionary step with regards to relationships?

I have always thought that the major problem with polyamory was pretty basic and revolved around jealousy and hurt. How many people can actually cope with their significant others screwing other people? It's not so much a trust issue as a need to have one exclusive exchange with a person, someone who just gets you and doesn't try to get everyone else quite as much. Now maybe if you had that relationship shared equally between three or more people it would be okay but in all likelihood that's not going to happen- generally you or your other is always going to get that third person more or that third person will prefer one of you. Frankly I think that's horrible and I wouldn't want to suffer the pain of being the rejected odd one out and that's the one and only reason I don't engage in polyamory. Having someone cheat on you is one thing, being left behind in a multiple relationship has got to be worse.
 
 
Cat Chant
11:27 / 10.11.03
the major problem with polyamory was pretty basic and revolved around jealousy and hurt

I think it's possible to argue that jealousy and hurts are problems of monogamy - that in a society where the dominant model for romantic/sexual attachment is monogamous, it's very difficult to have a successful polyamorous (set of) relationship(s). It's also, of course, very difficult to have a successful monogamous relationship, (depending on how you define 'successful': one where no-one gets hurt beyond a certain level, I guess). I don't really see why serial monogamy should seem to be the only way to solve the problems of monogamy.

I'm in a really fence-sitting position on this one wrt my personal life, which is kind of fun: as a policy, my gf and I are not monogamous - because, among other reasons which I don't want to talk about here, it seems to us like that would be asking the other party to be grateful to us for not fancying anyone else/not acting on our desires, which is just a horrible emotional knot to start tying; also because when I've been in 'monogamous' relationships in the past, one or both parties has always cheated and it's been horrible, for reasons which I think were to do with not being able to open out our expectations beyond the monogamous horizon.

Having said which, neither of us has met anyone we remotely fancied in the last umpteen years, so it seems unlikely we're going to have the energy or inclination to put the policy to the test. Best of both worlds!
 
 
Ganesh
11:39 / 10.11.03
not something id want to do

Paging Dr Freud! Very much something id want to do...

Will return to this later.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:56 / 10.11.03
I just kind of think that in trading monogamy for polyamory you're trading in something that could possibly hurt a lot for something that could possibly hurt twice (or umpteen times) as much. There's quite enough pain involved in total relationship breakdown without officially entertaining even more.
 
 
Ex
15:14 / 10.11.03
I just kind of think that in trading monogamy for polyamory you're trading in something that could possibly hurt a lot for something that could possibly hurt twice (or umpteen times) as much.

(And also responding to Haus' measured pessimism.)
I think polyamory often suggests dismantling at the outset of the aspects of the couple-thing that have power to hurt you. It's trading a thing that will probably hurt you, eventually, unless you're bloody lucky (the couple romance myth), for a shot at an alternative. For example, having a good hack at the idea that you should have [deserve to have, are a failure if you have not found] one person who thinks more of you than anyone else (not trying to summarise your fears, so much as suggesting one large painful aspect of the standard romance plot). Hopefully, chipping away at these expectations in advance takes the sting out things if they go tits up.
Yes, a tad optimistic (see below for realism).

I think most of these rejections of normative romance myths are helpful whether you're polyamorous or not - it just always seems to be the sexually disident communities who come up with them, out of necessity. I wouldn't want to be in a monogamous relationship with someone who stayed with me because they'd feel worthless without a partner. Or because they valued our relationship over our quality of life.
These rethinkings, and the basic principles of honesty and communication, can also be usefully nicked by ethical monogamists. Hurrah for pilfering from subcultures.

And yerse (grant and Tryphena), polyamory has been tried many times in many ways - I'm reminded of early Gay Liberation stuff which critiqued ideas of "promiscuity" and used Marxist analysis to undermine the idea of jealousy. And lesbian feminist communes, ditto.
Given the overwhelming amount of pressure on any polyamorous experiment, and the overwhelm,ing amount of support that monogamy has had over the years (from the Vatican right down to my Mum), I'd be more inclined to describe lifelong monogamy as "An interesting experiment but one that significantly collapsed".

And on the practical side, Mr Disco mentioned:
Nope, it's the whole expectation that everyone *will* be loving and emotionally responsible and mature, all the time. When so obviously (my father springs to mind here) many of them are not. Perhaps all of them are not.

Having been involved with someone who had purchased The Ethical Slut but clearly only used it as a beermat, I share your scepticism. But I am reassured by the polyamorists I know. Particularly, and perversely, by their own fears and failings. I was never more reassured than when hearing two polyamorous friends reporting back on a newbie:
"He says that jealousy and misunderstandings don't exist in proper multiple relationships."
"How long's he been doing it? Three weeks?"
"About that..."

You can, as with anything, hide behind rhetoric in order to get your end away, but I remain optimistic. Possibly, having both a declaration of intent with high standards of behaviour, and a real-live-community with pissed-off partners, varying tolerance levels and jealousy problems, is a balancing act. The blend of utopian optimism and grit might help support people in not putting up with manipulative bollocks.
And if the happy-clappy farewell-emotional-possessiveness hello-functionality is only ever a goal - it seems a goal one can work towards, more easily than you can work towards other culturally sanctioned options (successfully remaining married to one's childhood sweatheart, for example, or falling in love at first sight).

Additional outside resources (while The Ethical Slut Amazon order arrives): Loving More has some interesting principles laid out in the FAQ (and a message board with a whole forum on jealousy).
 
 
cusm
17:36 / 10.11.03
"polyfuckery" has also been defined by some as being similar to polyamory, but means intimate sexual contact with many without the emotional intimacy

I thought the term for that was "single".

Yeah, but that's not really anything to do with polyamory rather than simpel emotional honesty, is it?

Polyamory requires emotional honesty, such a simple thing that is so tragicly hard for so many. If you have emotional honesty, you can make polyamory work. That's where all the noble pretenses of it being a more enlightened way to go about your fuckery come from, as it requires a certain level of maturity to manage properly. Notably, so does monogamy.

Polygamy, applying the complementary part of the rede, is very hard to do, and probably should not be attempted except by experienced nd skilled individuals. But what are the profits involved to outweight he difficulties?

Couldn't agree more on the need for experience before attempting this @home. But as for the benefits, that should be apparent. There are two primary and opposing needs humans have in their relationships: The need for a stable emotionaly supporting role to nest with, and the drive to seek out new partners to experience. So the optimal configuration seems to be a stable partnered relationship where each partner fucks around on occasion. That's more or less what you get from working polyamory: the best of both worlds. Cake, eating, with some pie on the side.

I suppose its theoreticaly possible to have a dynamic group where each member loves each other in some sort of Marxist fantasy utopia, but I don't think human natue is any more disposed towards that as it is to exclusive life-partnering during one's most fertile years. Quite a bit less so, I'd think. Perhaps in groups of 4, but not a whole village. I can see why that experiment failed.

So as for social evolution, being that the model has a high requirement for emotional honesty and reaasonable means of resolving problems in addition to a substantially higher potential for disasterous hurting when done poorly, the encouragement is strong to develop the needed abilities. The payoff is strong too, in fulfilling desires to have multiple partners, so there will always be a draw to try it. But it is less that polyamory is socal revolution itself, so much as one can fine emotionally developed folks among its successful participants. Polyamory requires evolved social ability, it doesn't create it. Though it does give social pressure to developing it, so can count among Good Things in my book for that.
 
 
pomegranate
20:31 / 10.11.03
we are talking about what's commonly known as "open relationships," right? (i.e. yr in a relationship w/me but we can fuck other people.) we're not discussing those who choose to have more than one partner, as in emotional partner, are we? and then, if we are, there are those who, say you have 3 people, are all in love w/eachother. then you have those who, in the 3 person case, say, two men and a woman, the men sort of "share" the woman, but are not involved w/each other in any way.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
21:36 / 10.11.03
Well, mantis, I think we're discussing both, in a way. Cusm is positing, for example, a very specific version of polyamory which might be defined as an "open relationship", where one has a core partnership which basically follows the rules of your standard-issue relationship, except that both parties get to have sex with other people without feeling bad for or about each other. That is conceived as a response to a particular understanding of human sexuality (that we all want someone to love, and that we all want to have lots of sex with varied partners) that works for some people.

I suspect, however, that that is one approach to polyamory rather than polyamory in its entirety, and there are lots of outstandingly good questions raised i nthis thread so far that extend all over the place, so I wouldn't suggest locking ourselves into a particular mode of non-monogamous sexual self-expression yet.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
03:14 / 11.11.03
"and then, if we are, there are those who, say you have 3 people, are all in love w/eachother. then you have those who, in the 3 person case, say, two men and a woman, the men sort of "share" the woman, but are not involved w/each other in any way."

Paging Dr Freud.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:22 / 11.11.03
I think that a three way relationship in the frame that Mantis suggests sounds totally dysfunctional and kind of bleurgh but to get back on track...

It's trading a thing that will probably hurt you, eventually, unless you're bloody lucky (the couple romance myth), for a shot at an alternative

That's also going to hurt you and is just as likely too because it harbours more people. Don't get me wrong, I've always liked the idea of polyamory but I don't accept the idealisation that so many people seem to apply to it. If you're going to engage in this kind of relationship than you have to be aware of the negative possibilities because an extra person never cured anything. A serious argument between three people is always more difficult than an argument between two because people usually side. So whatever the pretty suggestion of comfort and alternatively interesting whoop-de-doo I'm living outside the box may be, polyamory=just like every other relationship. A bit of a grind sometimes but mostly worth it.

I think most of these rejections of normative romance myths are helpful whether you're polyamorous or not

Oh, I utterly agree but then I think that's what I'm trying to do, it's just that it's far easier to judge monogamy. Everyone's surrounded by its collapse.

I'd be more inclined to describe lifelong monogamy as "An interesting experiment but one that significantly collapsed".

I think that monogamy has to be taken with a pinch of sugar actually. Only 1 in 3 couples (that marry) get divorced, that's not the majority, I suspect polyamory's about the same percentage-wise though we'll never know. These things probably come down to the individuals involved, it is after all only my opinion that says polyamory is less likely to work. I just think it's a little more complicated... that's not to say I'd never consider it (though not in the form of an open relationship. I'd rather have fuck buddies tbh), just that I couldn't even begin at the moment.
 
 
Quantum
09:23 / 11.11.03
Excuse my simplistic stance on this, but jealousy and hurt are the core issue here. I suspect that love has a possessive aspect for most people, whether they admit it or not, and successful polyamory requires coping strategies to deal with the emotions thrown up by it. As not many people have the emotional maturity to deal with multiple partners honestly and openly etc. (myself included) there must be a relative minority of people able to enter into polyamory with integrity.

Since when looking for potential partners you'd be applying a slew of criteria (that you fancy them, that they fancy you, that they fancy the other partners, that they are willing to enter a polyamorous relationship, that they have the maturity to deal with it openly and honestly etc.) successfully finding lovers for a polyamorous relationship must be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

It strikes me the most 'successful' polyamorous relationships are affairs that are never discovered, or ostensibly open relationships where people never actually stray.

I think I agree with Trix when she said it's a good idea in theory but not so hot in practice. I'm certainly too jealous to consider it even if I thought it was a good idea.
 
 
Quantum
09:28 / 11.11.03
it's far easier to judge monogamy. Everyone's surrounded by its collapse.
I'm all for monogamy, despite the recent figures that 1/2 of UK marriages end in divorce (up from 1 in 3). I think that reflects the general breakdown of relationships, not specifically on monogamy.
I love one person and I want them to love only me (romantically).
 
 
Papess
17:20 / 11.11.03
I think we all agree then, that being emotionally intimate with anyone may have hurtful repercussions, no matter if the relationship is polyamorous or monogamous, or between parent and child for that matter! So polyamory is not a "cure" for monogamy.

Which brings me to another important point.

polyamoury = having many loving relations
monogamy = a committed long-term relationship


These are not in opposition, IMO, if the definitions are correct. In fact, in some way (Since, romance is only implied in a social context here, not literally and sexual intimacy really has nothing to do with love.) people already are polyamorous, anyway - between friends, children and partners. Is sex the defining point here, because that would mean there are a lot of delusions out there about what polyamory really is. Perhaps it is just semantics but it begs the question for me, if it is possible to be both polyamorous and monogamous. Poly-monogamy?

I wonder about intimacy levels when having several partnerships at once. I barely have the time, patience or trust level to deal with more than one intimate relationship at all levels (meaning: emotional, spiritual, physical, mental, etc...). I think I would be kidding myself if I thought I could juggle all that and raise my son work and do extra curricular activity. I really like the whole concept, I love it in fact. The loving more ideals and sharing of emotional resources equally...it sounds so wonderful and utopian.

I think one of the reasons people give for being poly, is they do not wish to be restrained from loving who they wish to love. Now, monogamy never stopped anyone - except in extreme and unhealthy relationships, which can happen in any setting - from loving another person(s). Also, embracing poly and deciding to do away with any sort of long term commitment to one person, well that may be considered poly, but it sure sounds like being single to me. Much like Cusm's suggestion about polyfuckery. In both cases, there is really seems to be very little difference between being poly and being single.

I'll need some time to discuss the evolution thing.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:50 / 14.11.03
Have been thinking about this, and will come back, but for now, here's an interesting and, IMO, surprisingly considered Guardian article on poly.

(via a friends lj where someone commented that the only complaint they'd heard was that @they could have tried harder to find people with normal names'!)
 
 
Quantum
09:37 / 26.11.03
(cross posted from conversation a bit, after May said "Love means responsibility, doesn't it?")

More people involved = diffused responsibility.
You cannot feel the same connection to five people as you do to one, people don't work like that.
Monogamy has the advantage of one on one responsibility, the other person depends on you and you alone for their romantic love, so you can't duck out and hope someone else takes up the slack. Rather like being a single parent in some ways (except it's a two way responsibility, obviously).
 
 
Quantum
09:48 / 26.11.03
from the Grauniad article;
"Although some 19th-century religious groups practised polyamory, it did not really get going until the publication in 1961 of Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land, a sci-fi novel in which sexual possessiveness lies at the root of war and murder."
Ahh, I grok polyamory now.
 
 
gotham island fae
15:38 / 26.11.03
Monogamy has the advantage of one on one responsibility, the other person depends on you and you alone for their romantic love, so you can't duck out and hope someone else takes up the slack.

A#1, I know you weren't suggesting that the italicized portion is a reason used by mature, self-aware polyamorists to justify their loves. I won't deny the presense of such an attitude in some poly-relationships. I just dislike seeing this behavior used as an attack on polyamory, itself. This behavior is an individual's problem, not a problem with polyamory that is magickally more workable in monogamy. I have little respect for anyone who claims polyamory as their own and practices this behavior.

Yes, as was described, polyamory is diffused responsibility in a sense. But in a responsible, honest poly-relationship, that should allow for more support for individuals', not less. Even monogamous folk practice the 'ducking out' behavior you describe. I find that fact to be the biggest problem with a large portion of arguments against polyamory. It is every bit as easy to say that the behaviors put forth as argument are viable problems with any relationship.

I will grant that there is the possibility that the problems inherent in relationships have the potential to blow-up to larger proportions in situations with more participants. The inherent problems themselves are across the board, though.

And I would say whether one-on-one LUV can be judged superior to poly LUV is entirely subjective and down to the individual.
 
 
CaseK
18:20 / 26.11.03
Also, re: Quantum's remarked quoted in the post above, it seems like it's open to debate whether one thinks that another person counting on one to be her/his romantic everything is an _advantage_ of any sort, rather than an insurmountable liability. Expecting one person to be all, or even most, of what you're looking for in a partner often leaves that person limited room in which to be himself. Multiple partners allow one to diffuse expectations, as well as responsiblity.
 
 
Papess
19:33 / 02.12.03
Okay, bear with me…I wrote this a few days ago when I had time, then and just as I was about to post it the machine froze, and I had 40 minutes to get to work. I apologize for the massive delay in responding. This time, I did it in Word first.

Thank you for that article BiP. The name thing was indeed a bit hokey, but along with the model they describe; it really was reminiscent of hippy “free love” which is precisely my issue with polyamory as well as the hippy “free love” notion. I think to minimize the misconceptions about “free love”, it may have been more appropriate to call it “generous love”. This would eliminate any misunderstanding about “free” being interpreted by the socially slovenly as meaning, without a shred of responsibility. I have spoken to a few people who get the same sense about polyamory (from now on I am referring topolyamory as PA) and some of the recycling of some left over ‘60’s retro. Funnily enough, one of the largest communities of polyamorists is in San Francisco, so the indication there is a bit of a “groundhog day”-like recycling of conscious experience.

Polyamory vs. Being Single: Just to define this a bit, as there are various forms of PA, here are three common scenarios:

1.) I belong to a polyfidelous group, much like in the article. Where there are key players are all aware of each other, maybe share an abode, expenses, and household responsibilities, possibly having some extended relationships outside of, but not living with the core group. I believe this is also the model in the Heinlein’s work, but I am going to have to read it…I am dying to know what grokking the fullness, actually means.

Next scenario…

2.) I live alone and have various lovers all of whom I am committed to. We go out sometimes (individually), they might sleepover sometimes, I tell them I care and maybe even that I love them, but never fully become engaged with them exclusively and if I do, maybe only for brief periods in order to leave time for myself, my obligations and my various other partners whom I share the same (or similar) intensity of relationship

A third scenario…

3) I have a primary partner and we have a solid relationship and extend ourselves to various other agreed upon partnerships for long term emotional and physical relations, always giving the primary partner priority, since it most likely the one I would be most vulnerable in. Sometimes, this model stems from behavior that is often defined as “an open marriage”, where a couple seeks other sexual partners, but perhaps the emotional content is not present. I would think in PA that the emotional state is also an important factor.

I found it was vital to define these different models a little better. They are not the absolute definitive of PA relations, but it is a little clearer on the basic formations in order for me to talk about the tie ij ton human social evolution.

Human Social Evolution and Polyamory: It seems to me, that all that has been done in the second scenario, is create another euphemism for “being single”. It may indeed be polyamorous in some sense, but is does not indicate an actual change in consciousness. You were single and dating before, now you are still single and dating there is just a new name to describe it, which may or may not add more to your individual relationships if taken from the PA, POV. It could be considered PA, but I am not too convinced it is, myself. The model of PA I find interesting, and points to a possible morph in human social consciousness (to me, anyway) is the “polyunion” of several adults, as is the case in the first scenario and also a bit in the third. This is not to say other methods are not valid as polyamory models, what I am interested in though, is the cognitive transformation of social consciousness. This is not really represented in the second case.

Okay, I have just begun and have to go now…I promise to continue this and respond much more promptly in the future...damn, the first response I did was so ace...I was so pissed off.
 
 
cusm
14:30 / 03.12.03
Very nice examination, and clear descriptiong of the models. Now, here's something to turn about. Rather than considering the second model as not PA but "single", what if you think of the conditoin of "single" as this model of PA? By doing so, there is a sense of responsibility implied that "single" does not carry, even if it is to a lesser degree to other models. It is acknowleging the relationship that existed, however briefly. It is being honest with your intentions even if they are to avoid further relationships altogether. Even if all you want is uncomitted sex, the model encourages one to be honest about their intentions and communicate them. One can be proud of being who they are and what they are doing, rather than try to hide it with fucked up deceptions and games that only end up hurting people. So by using this model of PA one is embracing the state of being "single", and in the process being more responsible about it through honesty of their intentions. And that, in the long run, is social progress.

So for your memetic warfare homework, convince "single" people who are "playing the field" or "just dating" that they are in fact practicing a form of PA, give some links to details on what that means and how its managed, and watch their patterns change over time into more functional and responsible models regardless of what they are into.
 
 
Papess
15:40 / 03.12.03
Cusm, one cannot just do that. If every relationship is going to be defined as PA (except of course for the dying traditional monogamy scenario), then why bother defining it at all? Is every relationsip polyamorous? No. Then why is there this insistance to try and squeeze everything in there? Think about this...

...what if you think of the condition of "single" as this model of PA? By doing so, there is a sense of responsibility implied that "single" does not carry, even if it is to a lesser degree to other models. It is acknowleging the relationship that existed, however briefly. It is being honest with your intentions even if they are to avoid further relationships altogether. Even if all you want is uncomitted sex, the model encourages one to be honest about their intentions and communicate them.

I can't agree with this. Being Single is not polyamory...it is called dating. Just changing the label doesn't imbue anyone with responsibility. A liar will lie whether they call themself polyamorous, single, monogamous, or asexual (hint, hint...). Ethics is not exclusive to any label or even model. There is the model, and one can choose to use it ethically or not. Even the model of being single requires one to be ehthical if one has a conscience and is considerate to others.

You are assuming that there is something inherently ethical about PA. I just do not agree with that. Any healthy relationship needs honesty and communication, even if it is for one night, or the relationship between a mother and child.

I chose to break it down in that way to pin point the exact morph in human conciousness. A label change is not a transformation in consciousness, no matter if I explain PA till I am blue in the face to the low-down and dispicable, they will still be that way until they decide to change THAT about themself. For the purpose of cognitive evolution that model doesn't work for me. NNothing has changed at all...and changing the name doesn't suddenly make one more cognitive, evolved or responsible.
 
 
cusm
16:18 / 03.12.03
The thing is, what I'm suggesting here is a bit of memetic warfare. Yes, its "single" or "dating". That doesn't change. But when you start applying the label of PA to the state of having multiple partners for any reason, its cause to consider your relationships in a new light. Think about it. How do you feel about your self if you consider yourself "single, but dating several people" and how do you feel about yourself if you consider yourself practicing non-comittal polyamory? It shift perceptions a bit, doesn't it? That's where this becomes memetic warfare. Its causing people to think about their relationships in a different way that can have effects on how they choose to manage those relationships.

At the very least, making it easier for someone to state their intentions of not wanting comittment can make the entire experience easier to manage. Its just arming people with better language to state their desires, which has a benefit for society as a whole.
 
 
Papess
16:58 / 03.12.03
Okay then Cusm...you want wafare? (hehe)...Why don't we just tell all the single people who date that they are good christians?

What is bothering me is you seem to be implying that there is something inherently ethical about PA, and there just isn't...no more or less so than monogamy or dating as a single person. If people are going to have alterior motives and selfish natures, they will still be that way even if they are pansexual-polyamorists with tentacles. *desperatly trying not to tangent now*

The only way I can conclude that the #2 scenario is a leap in consciousness, is if I claim I am in a polyamorous relationship with the entire world, (even though most of them do not know it) and then just go about being a loving, responsible person who may or may not have sex with you. This is religion now, with an open sexual agenda.
 
 
cusm
17:15 / 03.12.03
The ethical bit isn't in what you are doing, its in saying what you are doing up front. If I meet someone in a bar and they tell me they're poly, I know right up front not to hold any expectations of fidelity to them. That might change down the line if we do develop a relationship, but because they said they're poly, I'll know to stop and have the chat with them before assuming that they are being faithful to me. There will be a conversation somewhere down the line on what the rules of our relationship are, that wouldn't necessarily always happen in the single mono dating scene where expectations are consistent enough that communication might be avoided entirely about it. There is no matter of judgement on if their approach is better or worse. That it was identified at all means that communication will be necessary, and unpleasent misunderstandings can more easily be avoided.

What I'm doing here is going a 180 (go fig, I'm a Pisces) on my previous admonishments of PA folks calling themselves poly when they're really just single. Maybe its not so bad a thing after all. Its better that folks say their poly than don't say it but fuck around anyway. Even if they're bastards about it, at least you know what to expect. And its that extra level of communication that makes for a more enlightened society. So, there's a bit of goodness to take back from it.
 
 
Papess
21:49 / 03.12.03
The ethical bit isn't in what you are doing, its in saying what you are doing up front.

Okay, I almost agree with that, but I still don't understand how that is polyamorous behavior. If one just thinks they are being polyamorous and they are just dating, they are not being honest in the first place...just one thing that strikes as odd about your theory. So, if we go by your theory, and they accept they are practicing a form of PA by dating and announce this upfront - like a good PA - what happens when one day they fall deeply in love and actually want monogamy when they are not dating and living single? It doesn't work that way, does it?

Another point of contention for me would be: if I told you I was gonna kill you, rape your wife and impale your cat, am I really being ethical? Okay it is extreme, but I have liars pull this crap on me all the time. Just because you tell me you are a liar, (and everyone is to some degree) does not make it a clear and free road for someone to lie to me. It doesn't make it anymore ethical to be upfront about it, IMO. Creeps will try all sorts of excuses and methods of justifying their lack of concern for others That is only one, and it still stinks.

If I meet someone in a bar and they tell me they're poly, I know right up front not to hold any expectations of fidelity to them.

I wouldn't have any expectations of anyone I met in a bar, but I will take it you are using a figure of speech here.

I just don't think one has to use polyamory as an excuse to be decent. The rules of engagement for those who are dating are to be upfront. It is NOT a PA thing to commmunicate, it is just plain decent. I never called myself poly while I was dating regularly, but I did tell those I dated that I was not interested in more than a friendship with benefits situation and they would not be my only lover. I wouldn't open the date that way, but it would be worked into conversation eventually, certainly before any reasonable amount of attachment was developed. Then one can go about doing what is endearingly called "sportfucking", without hassle. I wouldn't call that polyamory though. I think the "amory" is lacking in this scenario, (which is fine for me). I really don't think it is possible to really "love" someone if one is practicing their PA this way. It comes straight back to the whole notion of not wishing to burden one's self with others and the expectations that a loving relationship places on them - love without responsibility as the misinterpretation of "free love". Where is the "love" in that? It seems to be only the love of oneself in this case. I think the practice of loving many is what makes one polayamorous, n'est ce pas? Yes, I realize I have now indicated that I have engaged in sportfucking and most likely, I will again. To be clear, I am not condemning the behavior, I just do not think it fits the polyamorous paradigm. That is not a terrible thing!

Knowing what one wants is the first step, then you can tell those whom wish to engage with (in whatever manner), exactly what you what.

...that wouldn't necessarily always happen in the single mono dating scene where expectations are consistent enough that communication might be avoided entirely about it.

Consistent? You are kidding right?
Avoid communication? A HUGE mistake in any relationship model.

I am definately all for the honesty and communication, it just is not a poly-thing. If everyone in the world went poly at this moment, there would still be jerks abusing people's trust...and simply admitting one is a jerk/liar/ass does not make it okay to be one.

Anyway, my main concern, despite my personal biases, was to draw on the actual change that has occured in human social consciousness, hence, this is why I did not conclude I could use the #2 scenario as truly significant in this respect. Another may wish to call it PA, I am not of that opinion for various reasons. One reason being my interest in conscious evolution, social or otherwise.
 
 
Quantum
09:46 / 04.12.03
I said "Monogamy has the advantage of one on one responsibility, the other person depends on you and you alone for their romantic love, so you can't duck out and hope someone else takes up the slack."

Frater Frae responded that it wasn't a problem with PA, but with general bad behaviour I have little respect for anyone who claims polyamory as their own and practices this behavior.

Quite so. I have no wish to attack PA, but I have observed that the diffusion of responsibility occurs, whether right or wrong, and that everyone does it to an extent. Like that famous rape case where dozens of people saw it and nobody called the police because they all thought someone else would.
When people do shitty things they justify them to themselves, and PA provides excuses not found in monogamy (such as 'someone else will provide the support for that person'). It doesn't make it better or worse (I'm not arguing a moral case) but it does mean the participants have to be more mature and emotionally stable to make the relationship work, as has been mentioned.

[tangent]May (+dear reader), grok, to understand profoundly through intuition or empathy (a Martian word meaning literally "to drink" and metaphorically "to be one with")
"1. To understand, usually in a global sense. Connotes
intimate and exhaustive knowledge.
Contrast zen, which is similar supernal understanding
experienced as a single brief flash. See also glark."

"The emphatic form is `grok in fullness'." I disagree- to me that's like saying 'I really really understand.' It's redundant, if you grok something you understand it fully, incomplete understanding means you don't grok it you just understand it. Grokked it? [/tangent]
 
 
gotham island fae
13:35 / 04.12.03
Confession: I am that single person who latched onto polyamory and stated that by “loving everybody” (which state I still attempt to enact) I was in fact a polyamorist. Under the terms of this discussion, thus far, I am no such thing. I can deal with that. I feel a lot of cusm’s argument for making single=PA within my own position of a year or so ago. I think part of it derives from having a much more theoretical base of observations. We look at the world around us and imagine what it (from our individually enlightened perspective) ought to be like, rather than what it is and what people around us are living. Kill memetics, the GODz are in the Going (which statement I recognize is just another meme). I only say this to point out a difference I personally see between cusm and May's two perspectives. I’d like to attempt a tight-rope walk between.

Although I could see an argument that the first scenario is more definitively considered polyfidelity than polyamory, I don’t know that we’ve gotten to that literal definition stage May Trix posited in her beginning post, yet. By literal definitions, I have been in a polyamorous relationship with the world for the past year and a half or so.

The only way I can conclude that the #2 scenario is a leap in consciousness, is if I claim I am in a polyamorous relationship with the entire world… This is religion now, with an open sexual agenda.

This is not a bad description of my personal stance, May. Not to suggest that I am somehow more enlightened and responsible than others because I’m not. However, I seriously live my life with the Will to LUV every being I interact with. I am consistently as honest and honorable as I can humanly be with everyone I encounter. I’m not perfect and I sometimes will snap at or avoid a LUVd one, but I’m still growing. And I have only been sexually intimate with a few, rare individuals, most all of whom I could tell by name that I LUVd them and had what many would immediately only consider an intimate friendship. I will freely admit that a portion of the core reasons I chose to perceive my life and relationships this way were the many arguments given earlier against people’s different perceptions of PA. I was afraid of commiting to one person, I wanted to lessen specific, focused responsibility in favor of a more diffuse, constant urge to make as many connections as possible, I’m a flighty, teasing bit of fluff. But my intentions are good.

I’ve rambled and anxiously await the picking apart that should be prompted by my likely obscured presentation.

More on the practicalities of a focused, fidelitous family perspective on PA and the direct conscious evolution to be found therein at another time.
 
  

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