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Reality television show to be sued for tricking str8 men into sexual acts with a 'woman' who turned out to be a 'man'.

 
  

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Pingle!Pop
15:27 / 05.11.03
I'm just going to appeal to common sense, here. There's a very big difference between gender and wigs. Or gender and breast implants.

a) And there's a big difference between gender and physical sex.

b) Go on then, what is it?

Really. Unless you can produce a reason, except that a greater population would find a person's genitalia an issue than whether or not they're wearing a wig, I don't think it'd be unfair of me to put this in the same category as other arguments-used-to-justify-things-without-any-basis, such as, "It's just wrong," and, "It's not natural". Oh, and, "Just... just... eurgh!"

I think that perhaps you should read the thread linked to above by Haus, and then reconsider your stance on that.

If the claim that this is sexual assault were ruled justified, I don't think you wind up on a kind of slippery slope.

I think you'd have already slid off that slope into whatever horror lies below. Just because it doesn't mean that it will lead to cases of men claiming sexual assault because a girl didn't declare that her breasts are partly silicone, doesn't stop it from being absolutely apalling in itself: think for one second about the implications of such a ruling. Basically, the judges would be saying that because the girl didn't declare what type of genitalia she had, she's sexually assaulted the men. So, sexual assault can be when someone doesn't declare something which may have altered their partner's decision to engage in sexual activity?

But, really the heart of the disagreement on this matter, I think, is in the business about gender not being determined by genetalia. I don't think we'd get anywhere arguing on this point. I certainly understand a number of reasons for saying one ought to be able to determine hir gender by the gender with which xe identifies.

But you don't believe this to be the case? Come on, tell me how people should be defined, then. A little part of an email to my brother a few months back, following his saying some horrific things:

So... the same old questions, then: what defines someone as female?
To possess mostly feminine traits (can't be any of those poor butch types, then)?
To be born with XX chromosomes (the XX males can join the club, but unfortunately hermaphrodites can't be anything)?
To possess a womb (well, it's technically possible surgery, but a bit pointless... or maybe a working womb? You ain't nobody if you ain't fertile, of course)?
To possess "natural" female genitalia (hermaphrodites lucky with this criteria - they can be both! "Artificial" genitalia, though, even indistinguishable by medical professionals... nonono. And who cares about a few people with deformities? As Glenn Hoddle (?) would tell you, it's their own fault anyway, previous lives and all that)?
To be perceived as female by those around one (oh, wait... no, you've already ruled that out - can't be considering any of those ****ing immoral trannies as female - the pope'll tell you that)?
Birth certificate (again, those darn inconveniently ambiguous hermaphrodite creatures... and if a mistake's made there, you're stuck with it - sorry)?


... Or maybe, just maybe, it's whatever one defines oneself as.

Besides defining gender, I think claiming that the above is what is at the heart of the disagreement is wrong. The "lads'" problem has nothing to do with her gender, but with the genitalia she possesses (and if she were post-op, I dare say they'd react the same based on the genitalia she used to possess). What gender she defines herself/is defined as makes no difference to them; only what's between her legs.

I would encourage anyone to be honest about their sex, at least with their intimates.

And why is their being honest about their anatomy so much more important than other matters of honesty? Arguably, honesty about everything should be encouraged, but I don't see why their physical sex should be treated differently, as would appear to be the case by your picking it out specifically.
 
 
Ex
18:03 / 05.11.03
I'm interested in the idea of honesty from two angles.
Firstly - are there any pieces of information, the witholding of which in order to get sex is a legal matter? I'm trying to find out - lying to someone in order to involve them in sex work is an offence in some places, but that involves money as well (and hence, legally, 'fraud' and 'deception'). Has there ever been a legal obligation to disclose, for example, marital status when having sex? (I'm thinking of possible archaic laws that prevented vile seducers from promising marriage and being unable to come up with conjugal goods afterwards).
If there are no other grounds on which you are legally deemed to have committed an offence by not revealing something that would possibly prevent someone from having sex with you, this case seems to be on very flimsy legal ground. That's not my main point, though, except insofaras...
I'm really interested in the obligation of honesty here. It's a hyped-up, dramatised version of the cultural demand that transpeople wear their status on their sleeve. (As opposed, for example, to it being rude to make assumptions about a person's genitalia). And it's a ridiculous double bind - society can't tolerate ambiguity but won't stand for 'passing'.
Joshua Gamson writes abut Ricki-style talk shows - he says that the audiences on them freuqently demand openness and honesty because that's what these shows are all about - talking, revealing, announcing, 'getting things out in the open'. He says this can work in the favour of gay and lesbian guests as they're enjoined to come out, be honest, make revealing statements to all and sundry. But he also argues that trans people on these shows are positioned as always already dishonest - that the very act of changing your presenting gender is seen as an act of dishonesty and concealment. (I don't know why these cases should be so different - that the rhetoric of 'being honest to yourself' shouldn't operate similarly for both. But apparently so).
I'm wondering where reality TV fits into this - I suppose it's popular because it promises authenticity, reality, revelation, which puts it in the same position as talk shows a few years back. Which makes this show the most logical of progressions, but possibly not the most enjoyable of events.
 
 
SMS
03:36 / 06.11.03
b) Go on then, what is it?

I expect that there are different, possibly contradictory reasons for reaching the conclusion that there's a big difference. The reasons that make the most sense to me are that the physical act of sex is centred around the physical instruments of sex. If an argument were made along those lines, it should exclude the wig problem. You can exclude the breast implant problem, too, because whatever role they have leading up to sex (and wigs can play that role, too), they are not essentially instruments of sex as are the genetalia. To prevent a ruling from becoming all-encompassing, you just need to be careful in the wording. I'm sure lawyers spend a lot of time worrying about this kind of thing.

I think you'd have already slid off that slope into whatever horror lies below.

Could be, but I'm not taking a position on that. I was initially responding to the thought that rapists would be able to sue their ts victims if there were a ruling that this incident with Miriam was sexual assault. It just doesn't seem plausible to me that this set such a far-reaching precedent.

And, as Anna has reminded us, no one is suing Miriam. They're suing the company. It's even less likely that we would get the kind of cases Our Lady of.... was concerned about.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
10:37 / 06.11.03
Well you couldn't get those types of cases as a result of this one because their would be absolutely no legal precedent for them.

Firstly - are there any pieces of information, the witholding of which in order to get sex is a legal matter?

At the moment I'm not sure but it might be an idea to look in to HIV cases- witholding relevant medical information perhaps. Obviously this bears no relation to having extra bits (I'm sorry everyone, I couldn't resist) but it does to an extent revolve around the notion of honesty.

this can work in the favour of gay and lesbian guests as they're enjoined to come out, be honest, make revealing statements to all and sundry. But he also argues that trans people on these shows are positioned as always already dishonest

It's interesting. I think sexuality is seen as something inherent to a person because there's been such a movement in the public eye. The same thing hasn't happened for trans people and so they're not as accepted. Gender is so polar and sexuality fits that, you like men or you like women but you still like one or the other. Bisexuals are often seen as a bit seedy because they're mucking with the polar opposites and I suspect the same goes for people who change their gender. They jump from one pole to another and people don't like to view things in that way because it's just not clear cut enough. So Miriam is like, the epitomy of stuck in the middle, neither a man nor a woman and that isn't a bad thing but some people just can't cope with the idea that someone could be going through this process of almost being both genders at the same time.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
11:00 / 06.11.03
The reasons that make the most sense to me are that the physical act of sex is centred around the physical instruments of sex.

Sex, n. Also known as "proper sex". An act in which a man inserts his manhood into the hole possessed by a woman.

Oh, come on! Sexual acts don't have to have anything to do with genitalia (as Ganesh kindly poitned out many times over in the "Gender**** you." thread linked to up there). They commonly do, yes. They also fairly commonly involve breasts. Perhaps a little less commonly, they may involve wigs.

And, in the case in question, genitalia did not enter into the equation anywhere. Miriam's anatomy was as irrelevant as whether or not she was wearing a wig, and saying that her not declaring it constitutes sexual assault is exactly comparable to her not declaring that she was wearing a wig. The only conceivable difference, as I've already said, is that more people get het up about genitalia than they do about wigs. There is absolutely no reason why if this were to be ruled as sexual assault, a person with a dislike for wigs could not charge someone they engaged in sexual contact with for sexual assault on the grounds that their hairpiece was not declared. Just because it's less common, doesn't mean the morality's any different.

To prevent a ruling from becoming all-encompassing, you just need to be careful in the wording. I'm sure lawyers spend a lot of time worrying about this kind of thing.

So in this case, the law would read, "If a pre-operative [or maybe even post-operative] transsexual does not, before engaging in any kind of sexual activity, declare their condition, they are committing sexual assault." Well, that makes it a whole lot better.

Could be, but I'm not taking a position on that. I was initially responding to the thought that rapists would be able to sue their ts victims if there were a ruling that this incident with Miriam was sexual assault. It just doesn't seem plausible to me that this set such a far-reaching precedent.

Christ... of course it's not going to happen, and maybe the comparison is slightly flawed, as the rape victim doesn't have a choice in the matter, but can you not see how absolutely horrific the ruling in itself would be? Again: if this were to be ruled as a legitimate claim, it would imply - actually, not even imply, but be saying outright - that by not declaring her genitalia before engaging in any form of physical contact with the men, Miriam was committing sexual assault. Perhaps rapists, due to the consent issue, would find it a little difficult to put their case forward, but apart from that, it would make anyone who touched or was touched by a transperson able to claim sexual assault, if said person didn't reveal their condition beforehand. And if things were to actually be judged fairly, it would mean that you could be charged for sexual assault for not telling your partner beforehand that you have an "outie" belly button, or whatever comparable thing may apply to you.

Anna de L: They have a right to sue and something inside me says they shouldn't necessarily lose as long as this is action against the company rather than the woman. Yes it's screwed up that people have such a strong reaction to one part of the body when they can fancy everything else but that does not, under any circumstance, make it right to put men in such a position.

SMS: And, as Anna has reminded us, no one is suing Miriam. They're suing the company. It's even less likely that we would get the kind of cases Our Lady of.... was concerned about.

But... the problem is that while it may be the company they're suing, the grounds of their legal action is Miriam. While it might be considered "a bit nasty" of the company to put the men in a position in which it knew they would find uncomfortable, that they could sue for any part of this matter is making some quite horrible implications. If a case for defamation were accepted, it would be branding Miriam as a disgusting thing which mars the names of good people. If a case for sexual assault were accepted... well, I think I've covered what that would imply enough already. Whatever accusations they throw at the company, the implications are that there is something wrong about Miriam, that contact with her legally wrongs the men.

Also, I find the link between putting the men in a position with which they're uncomfortable and bad ethics - particularly to the extent where legal action could be taken - rather suspect. The grounds for this show were that the men wouldn't touch a transgirl if they knew her anatomy, that they would be repulsed if they found out they had done so, the "entertainment" coming from putting them into a situation in which they do so unwittingly.

Perhaps that may seem to some a little unfair on the men. But: what if, say, the TV company had picked men they knew to be racist, who would be repulsed if they discovered they had touched a black girl, and put them in a situation in which they unwittingly do so (for example, blindfold them and say, "Here is a beautiful woman, she's there for you to win the affections of.")? If they then removed their blindfolds, discovered that the girl they'd been fondling was black, and then tried to sue the company for sexual assault because they didn't consent to being fondled by someone of a different colour, would you have much sympathy for them?

And... there really is no difference. Both situations are based on not telling the men something about the woman they're about to engage in physical contact with, knowing that they'd be repulsed if they knew. The former group is transphobic, the latter is racist. The only thing which means that people would denounce the latter group but be more "understanding" of the former is that transphobia is, quite simply, much more socially acceptable.

(... And after pressing preview, Anna de L has posted. Do you have a camera in my office to ensure that you post just before I finish something? This is the second post in a row...)
 
 
Alex's Grandma
22:36 / 30.03.04
Just saw the last episode of this a couple of nights ago, hence reviving the thread.

And I wasn't too sure what to make of it really. Well, all right, it was exploitative trash, but Tom, who won the grand prize, ten thousand quid plus a week on a yacht with Miriam, did seem genuinely hurt and upset when he found out her secret - he's either got issues to deal with or he hasn't I guess, either way, I suspect he probably won't, but it did look clear that he was really smitten, and more than anything else just seemed very confused. I mean granted ok, he was a bit of an arsehole, but it's not as if Miriam came out of it much better, offering precisely zero insight into why she was doing this ( well it could have been cut, but she did mainly seem... not perhaps the most articulate spokesperson for the transgender movement, let's put it that way, ) while apparently not minding that she'd hurt the guy's feelings, never mind on television.

Any way you cut it, even if Tom has had a life-changing experience, or even if he hasn't, it seems a bit much to process in a ten minute segment on shoddy UK TV, and it wasn't if he actually SAID anything homophobic, and it was all a bit frankly a bit, you know, awful, for which Miriam herself seemed no more or less to blame than anyone else was.

No one came out of this all that well
 
  

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