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Reality television show to be sued for tricking str8 men into sexual acts with a 'woman' who turned out to be a 'man'.

 
  

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Bill Posters
11:51 / 31.10.03
I'm putting this in the switchboard, though I guess it could equally go in Film, TV and Theatre, or the Head Shop. I'll let a UK paper tell the story. What do we reckon, then? Is reality TV sick? Do these homophobic idiots deserve all they get? Is this really good for the tv/ts community?
 
 
Pingle!Pop
12:48 / 31.10.03
While my reaction to the article's portrayal of the "lads" makes me think that they deserve anything that's coming to them, I can't say I'd be too happy about this being screened, because...

Is this really good for the tv/ts community?

... I really think not. The Sun-reading public watching these will, I'd assume, associate transgendered people with the girl in question. And... well, I certainly wouldn't consider her to be a particularly good example of the TS/TG community.

I don't know what her motives for participating in the programme are - perhaps she wishes to show that gender boundaries aren't quite as fixed as people think, perhaps she needs the money for surgery (NHS service is reportedly horrific and £10,000 isn't that easy to come across), perhaps she wishes to expose the ludicrousness of labelling people because of their genitalia by showing that if she portrayed herself as normal, then it makes no difference. However, what I'd actually consider probably the most likely, and much more importantly, what I think would be the impression gained by the viewing public, is that she's actually a bit... twisted. The way in which she "reveals her secret" at the end seems rather exhibitionist, and certainly something most transpeople would be horrified at the thought of.

And now imagine the reaction from the average viewer to the "lads'" disgust and "trauma": "Oh, my God, how could it be so evil? I bet all transsexual people just want to dupe poor, normal blokes and - eurgh!"

Remember a certain level of outrage when there was an expose that some transsexual girls were getting surgery on the NHS and then working as prostitutes in Soho? I can't really imagine this being portrayed in a much more favourable light.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:33 / 31.10.03
Considering that all of Sky's original output is based around men and women having sex, whether it's sex in an airplance, sex in a football strip or sex on a beach it would have been more sensible for the lads to keep their heads down, after all, Sky is received by a small percentage of homes in the UK IIRC. But it's a no win case. If the show is shown then maybe a few dullards have the wrong opinion of transexuals, if it gets banned it makes the men feel better abour their trans/homophobia. If only there were some third option which left everyone unhappy...

It's all News International/Fox, so it's all fruit from a poisoned vine. It can't be seen as a victory for humanity which ever side wins here, I think the best thing is to ignore it and concentrate on putting more positive images elsewhere.
 
 
SMS
15:01 / 31.10.03
Do these homophobic idiots deserve all they get?

Although I'm flattered when a man tells me that I'm attractive, although I support gay marriage, although I say I'd be willing to be arrested to support gay rights, I must also be a homophobic idiot, because I too am horrified and disgusted at this story. It turns my gut to know that, if it is aired, people will watch it just to see these guys suffer the embarassment of being lied to.

There's a lot that's good and noble in humanity. That's not really relevant to this thread, but I felt like reminding myself.
 
 
sleazenation
15:13 / 31.10.03
I get the feeling that if this was a morality tale it would end in the producers being sexually assulted in the anal reagion with a variety of objects by an angry, humiliated and sexually confused former contestant, thus demonstrating that sexual identity is a pretty primal, volatile area for some people and is dangerous to toy with.
 
 
Bill Posters
15:18 / 31.10.03
I must also be a homophobic idiot, because I too am horrified and disgusted at this story.

woah, easy tiger! What I meant is that, weeel, two points.

1. I've been in a similar situation whereby someone gave me the impression she was a she, not a 'she-male' (is that a nice term?), but when it became apparent what was going on, I just made my excuses and backed off. I did not think I had done a bad or disgusting thing. But surely these guy's baseline mentality is that any man who touches another man (as they define that ts lady) in a sexual way is despicable. That's surely homophobic? Me, I just thought, ho hum, it's not what I want and tried to get my end away with someone else. Okay, I was a little taken aback, but not angry or humiliated.

2. Also, a UK programme called Magick did a similar thing where they got a guy choose one of 5 lovely ladies who'd danced for him, he choose the pre-op ts (she was the most attractive) and he just burst out laughing when she showed him her tackle.

what I'm trying to say is, these guys sound homophobic by the standards of me and the guy in point 2 above.

Changing tack slightly, does anyone here do law? Can one claim sexual assault if one consents to het sex but then ends up unwittingly having gay sex? It'll be a legal minefield.
 
 
Bill Posters
15:35 / 31.10.03
Sleaze, you said elsewhere on the board that the ethix of this are questionable... you may well be right, but is the fuss about this because of ethix, or because of transphobia? Remember Honey Trap, a UK reality tv show where beautiful women would hit on guys and persuade them to do some totally humiliating thing then calmly announce they they were on national tv? No one sued over that. IMHO this is homo- and trans-phobia at the root of it all, not reality tv, which ever since Candid Camera has been making idiots out of the gullable public. Hell, I've been made a bit of an idiot of on reality radio, and Mr Illmatic said his mate was caught on Game For A Laugh once, but neither he nor I felt the need to sue anyone.
 
 
Professor Silly
16:23 / 31.10.03
I say fuck 'em. They signed waivers before the show was filmed, and all they apparently saw was a nice face and set of tits. Wouldn't this be almost as likely to happen in some random bar? If a homophobe wants to totally avoid the chance of hooking up with a pre-op transexual, then they should probably join a nudist colony, or only pick up full nudity strippers, or just stay celibate. Because let's face it: some cross-dressers don't look like men...they look like archtypal models. Human sexuality seems way more fluid than most people admit...and she will have a (man-made) vagina at some point (would these men even notice after the surgery?)

But seriously, would anyone here sign up for any kind of reality show, considering how these shows now tend towards some sort of "trick?" I can't really feel sorry for any of these people--their short-sighted desire for fame and/or sex sets them up for just this kind of thing.

Bare in mind that most people here have a different view of cross dressing than the general population--at the very least most of us probably have a great love for the Lord Fanny character, and some of us know and are friends with a cross-dresser or two. I doubt one will find the point of "how does this individual reflect positively or negatively on cross-dressers around the world" in most other forums.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
20:30 / 31.10.03
It's been cancelled/delayed.
 
 
SMS
20:55 / 31.10.03
But surely these guy's baseline mentality is that any man who touches another man (as they define that ts lady) in a sexual way is despicable.

I don't know. I mean, maybe that's true, and maybe you can gather that just from their agreeing to be on a reality TV show in which they fight like dogs over a beautiful woman, but I didn't gather that. I didn't even make the jump that the guy who punched the producer was homophobic. I'm a little tempted to punch him myself.

I've been in a similar situation whereby someone gave me the impression she was a she, not a 'she-male' (is that a nice term?), but when it became apparent what was going on, I just made my excuses and backed off.

Maybe it's because I don't have casual sex, so by the time I never get to physical intimacy before emotional/spiritual intimacy. I don't know. Was xe being intentionally deceptive? I mean, it isn't reasonable to expect every transgendered person to make an announcement when xe enters a room or introduces hirself, or even to demand xe tells hir friends about it if xe doesn't think it's any of their business. But surely it is the business of potential sexual partners. If sex ever matters, it matters in matters of sex.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
08:32 / 01.11.03
Although I find the whole concept of the show itself just another example of the connection between voyeurism and consumerism, I also have a gut reaction of 'Heh! Suckerrrrs...' The show seems designed to reveal their phobic reactions, which I think is simultaneously quite subversive and also pretty fucked up. But it's not just homophobia or transphobia that these men are reacting to so violently: their whole masculinity is at stake. Being able to 'tell' is fast becoming a marker for whether a man is really a man.

There were once imposter laws that made it illegal for people to 'masquerade' as the opposite sex -- ie butch dykes, ts/tg's, cross-dressers etc -- but there are no sexual assault laws that cover this, as far as I know.

Also I think the attitude of some of the previous posters, who feel it's necessary to talk about the reasons the woman did it, are misguided. Not all transfolk would either disapprove *or* approve of her role in this, and not all transfolk would agree that 'this is not the image we want to put out'. Maybe she needed the money for surgery and maybe she just wanted notoriety: who are we to judge?
She's being paid to play a role -- and, quite possibly, the men who got so shirty about her are being paid to play up their phobic reactions.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
08:36 / 01.11.03
By the way, I would love it if anyone could tell me what a 'good' example of the TS/TG community is. If only so I can make sure I continue to be a bad example...
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
09:02 / 01.11.03
I guess my feelings on the matter boil down to two points.
1) Why does she have to tell the guys at the end that she used to be a man? Why not make the point of the show whether she can get off with the men without them knowing? Which she appears to have succesfully done, based on the reports of what was written. It sounds like it was done deliberately to engineer that Brandon Teena moment, what do the guys do when they are faced with something outwith what they would expect, do they go "So?" or do they lash out. Being Sky, it's more exciting if they go bonkers.
2) You just know that Sky had no intention of making part two where a pre-op f-to-m trolls around San Fran trying to pull a guy. Because that would just be, like, gross...
 
 
Ganesh
11:16 / 01.11.03
Interesting to contrast this with the pseudo-justification for the odious Boy Meets Boy, in which heterosexual males won a prize if they were able to dupe the gay 'looking for love' protagonist into falling for them. Douglas Ross, the show's producer, "wanted to test boundaries between gay and straight, and create a world where the straight people were in the closet."

Hmmm...
 
 
Jack Vincennes
13:29 / 01.11.03
Changing tack slightly, does anyone here do law? Can one claim sexual assault if one consents to het sex but then ends up unwittingly having gay sex? It'll be a legal minefield.

I don't think that legally they'll have much chance at all -as was pointed out, they will have signed waivers, and I think that Sky will have been careful enough in how they were worded to make sure there's no loopholes there. Furthermore, the law tends to be (in most cases, entirely unfortunately) biased against those who claim sexual assualt -so if it was quite clear that they were initiating contact with Miriam, I doubt that they will be able to claim successfully that it was a sexual assault on them. Particularly when the volume of video footage of their snogging, cuddling and groping her (which The Sun emphasised repeatedly) is considered.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
19:44 / 02.11.03
There's some discussion, from an ethical/political angle, of a similar question here. Major conclusions included that you didn't have to have a penis to be a boy, and you didn't have to have a vagina to be a prima donna.

It seems unlikely that they could sue, although they could possibly slow things up a bit. Since the company that owns Sky TV also owns the Sun, I can't see this as anything other than an attempt to drum up interest in the show.It's a cross-media puff piece. The men involved will probably get a bit more cash to shut up, and the show will go ahead as planned.

It is interesting that reality TV seems to have become the point at which issues of acceptibility are increasingly pushed. I recently saw an advert for applicants for a show in which people are being sought to compete for a woman with their relatives (fathers, brothers, that sort of thing - incest-tastic), and there was the teen sex on Teen Big Brother...

Is reality TV going to be the battleline for taboo-busting?
 
 
sleazenation
22:47 / 02.11.03
looking forward to who wants to be a corpse fucker on TVs soon.
 
 
Enamon
08:27 / 03.11.03
First off... is it ok to lie to get laid?

Second... where exactly is the homophobia in this case? Are you saying that in order to not prove themselves homophobic the contestants should have had sex with her? Thus are you not implying that all heterosexuals are homophobic?

If you became intimate with someone and that person broke your trust would you still be intimate with them?
 
 
Pingle!Pop
10:53 / 03.11.03
I also have a gut reaction of 'Heh! Suckerrrrs...'

It has to be said, the following, from the BBC story linked to from the thread sleazenation started on this in the TV forum, does make me more favourably disposed to the idea of the programme's being broadcast:

Lawyer Rod Christie-Miller, who represents the men, told BBC News Online the programme had "a devastating effect on these young guys" and warned this would be "magnified a millionfold" if the broadcast went ahead.

Mwahahah - I mean, awww...

But continuing my previous line a little more:

Not all transfolk would either disapprove *or* approve of her role in this, and not all transfolk would agree that 'this is not the image we want to put out'.

Welllll... I just find the prospect of this being aired a little alarming in terms of public opinion re: transness. If one wants to challenge perceptions of gender and transpeople, I'd think there are much more effective ways of going about it than something like this; the show seems, as Our Lady says, engineered entirely for shock value, and the only effect I can see it having on public opinions/perception is to make people more transphobic. I can't imagine the show'd have such a pronounced effect as, say, the transwoman on Coronation Street, but still, the effect of the media on society's values is immeasurable, and I see this as making transpeople with difficulties passing just that little bit more in danger of being stabbed.

There's some discussion, from an ethical/political angle, of a similar question here. Major conclusions included that you didn't have to have a penis to be a boy, and you didn't have to have a vagina to be a prima donna.

Oooo... five-page "gender****" thread! (Though: genitalia does not equal gender... it took five pages to reach this insightful conclusion?)

Second... where exactly is the homophobia in this case? Are you saying that in order to not prove themselves homophobic the contestants should have had sex with her? Thus are you not implying that all heterosexuals are homophobic?

Well, I thought this post from Mr. Posters summed up fairly well why they seem a tad homophobic. It's the whole ridiculous men-needing-to-prove-how-*hetero*-they-are-by-displaying-disgust thing.

If you became intimate with someone and that person broke your trust would you still be intimate with them?

Sorry, I fail to quite see the relevance of that statement. Explain...?

Oh, and an aside:

Brighter Pictures, which is a subsidiary of Endemol, the makers of Channel 4's Big Brother, told Broadcast magazine that its producers had made a point of never referring to Miriam as a woman.

"As Miriam is a transsexual, I would never refer to her as male or female. She is a gorgeous creature," a spokesman said.


Gah.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
12:14 / 03.11.03
Pingle, I'm not sure I agree that the only effect the show's being screened would have is to heighten transphobia. Surely at least some of the audience would not necessarily interpellate themselves into identifying with the boys? Pop culture never encourages just one response or identification process: it's all made in layers (that's why we watch it! Or maybe I'm just speaking for me.)

It is interesting that reality TV seems to have become the point at which issues of acceptibility are increasingly pushed. I recently saw an advert for applicants for a show in which people are being sought to compete for a woman with their relatives (fathers, brothers, that sort of thing - incest-tastic), and there was the teen sex on Teen Big Brother...

Capital is constantly having to find novelty in order to create a spectacle -- and now that the tv executives have exhausted their fascination/horror at fags and dykes snogging or fucking on television, surely the more outrageous the sex/gender/proclivity the better? Reality TV shows are the perfect vehicle: they're not character-driven on an ongoing basis, they explode into ratings success and then disappear (at least until the next season is made) and they're cheap, so it doesn't matter if they flop. A combination designed for pushing boundaries at no expense...
 
 
Pingle!Pop
13:03 / 03.11.03
Mm, perhaps I'm being a bit presumptuous about the way in which Murdoch's minions will present this, or pessimistic about the way in which the public will perceive it. But the impression thus far is that its engineered as a Shock Horror thing rather than making any effort to encourage people to think. Of course there won't be just one reaction, but I'd expect that those who react positively to the transgirl wouldn't be thinking any differently to how they did before seeing the show...

Or is any transexposure is good transexposure?
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
16:31 / 03.11.03
Enamon Second... where exactly is the homophobia in this case?

Well, i think the 'being eager for a shag right up until she took down her pants' angle was what did it for me, unless you're suggesting that it was coincidental and at that point they all woke up and decided what a crap show they'd all agreed to be on.

Pingle Or is any transexposure is good transexposure?

I tend to think that bad transexposure is possibly a little better than no-transexposure at all, if you get people used to the idea of trans, even through the fantasy of a beautiful woman once being a man, it at least alerts people to the knowledge that it happens. Then you can work on changing their ideas to being closer to the reality. If somehow fifty years of sex change surgery had been kept completely quiet from civilisation, would we have had the story with the transwoman in Corrie?
 
 
cusm
16:46 / 03.11.03
You know, I'd watch it entirely for the sheer look of horror on the guys face as he realizes that since his girl was a guy, "Oh my god, I'm gay!" *faints*

But I am cruel that way.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
20:15 / 03.11.03
genitalia does not equal gender... it took five pages to reach this insightful conclusion?

No, that sort of hit about post the third. It just took a while to sort out the repercussions. The thread's quite interesting at times, and certainly worth reading.

"Creature" is certainly an interesting word. I am hoping that what the fellow means is that Miriam is not in the eyes of Endemol male or female but rather a woman, but I'm probably being overly optimistic.

still, it might have been rather more interesting if, rather than the big reveal, Miriam's genitalia marked the end of the first act (as it were), and the boys were then compelled to talk through on film how they had felt, before being reintroduced to Miriam in the third act. It might also have led to some proper nobbing, as opposed to this presentation of the transperson as a punchline.

It *is* rather subversive, but I suspect it will be handled in the least interesting way. More Alan Partridge than Dana International...
 
 
grant
21:29 / 03.11.03
Capital is constantly having to find novelty in order to create a spectacle

I was thinking more along the lines of the camera eroticizing the space before its lens, actually. Movies and TV have always been about peeking, from the earliest "what the butler saw" nickelodeon shows.

I don't think it's any accident that The Real World came out, at most, a couple years after Amateur Porn became its own specialty category (with its own dedicated websites, video series, whatnot).

So, yeah, there's going to be more of this until the audience gets jaded.

I also think it's going to, at worst, make people think the subject through, which is better than never having it come up at all.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
11:31 / 04.11.03
Because, y'know, I thought perhaps the Guardian might be a little better than other sources:

http://media.guardian.co.uk/bskyb/story/0,13935,1074333,00.html

"The men claim they were tricked into kissing, cuddling and holding hands with the "woman", Miriam, and say it was only after three weeks of filming that they were told she was male."

I really, really suggest Mr Deans reconsiders his definition of the words "male", "female", "man" and "woman". I'm sure I recall something about the Guardian being a "liberal" paper, but perhaps my memory's a little mixed up and that's actually the Sun; ferchrissakes, even the red tops (see http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003502072,00.html) only refer to Miriam as having been "born a MAN", as opposed to actually referring to her as male in the present tense. The former's bad, but the latter's what I'd expect from the Daily Mail.

(Incidentally, the Guardian story appears to have been partly plagiarised from the Torygraph, or at least from the same source. The fact that the paragraph quoted above wasn't to be found in the Torygraph story makes the stupidity of the statement even worse, due to the fact that it's phrasing and choice of words is presumably original.)

Please remember when writing about the TS community in future that referring to people based on their genitalia rates more or less equally on the offence-o-meter as calling a black person a "n*****". Thank you.

Regards,
xxxxxx


And the reply...

Hello xxxxxx,

Thank you for your email. The story broke very late and there was no comment from anyone representing the programme or miriam. You are the first person to complain and we will make appropriate amendments.

Lisa O'Carroll


So, then, would this be the amended version?

Lawyers acting for the six men trying to stop Sky broadcasting a reality show in which they are seen unwittingly kissing and caressing a male transsexual are planning a litany of legal charges against the broadcaster, including conspiracy to commit sexual assualt.

... While viewers would know from the start that Miriam is a male-to-female transsexual, the contestants - who include a Royal Marine commando, a ski instructor and an ex-lifeguard - only discover the truth when Miriam picks the winner and then lifts up "her" skirt.


Note "male transsexual" and scare quotes for "her". Perhaps I should give up my expectations and remember that the Guardian is responsible for the existence of threads such as this. Sigh.

No, that sort of hit about post the third. It just took a while to sort out the repercussions. The thread's quite interesting at times, and certainly worth reading.

Sorry, I should perhaps have read a little before replying. Have read most of it now, and... there's certainly interesting material there, though much of it seems to be taken up with circular arguments.

I tend to think that bad transexposure is possibly a little better than no-transexposure at all, if you get people used to the idea of trans, even through the fantasy of a beautiful woman once being a man, it at least alerts people to the knowledge that it happens.

Mmmm... possibly. I think that's true up to a point, but in the end acceptance is probably based on a mix of the quantity of transexposure, and the percentage of that which is positive. I think it'd be optimistic to think headlines such as "Transsexuals eat our swans" would be terribly beneficial. Fifty years of surgery being kept quiet would indeed mean no transwoman on Corrie, but would also mean no stupid declarations from the pope on the matter, and suchlike.

Phobias often tend to be manufactured arbitrarily... there were, of course, times when people never questioned homosexuality, but now it's been demonised by the church and the media...

Transphobia's probably a bit different there in that people would probably naturally be more likely to respond negatively to the discovery (having had no previous knowledge/experience) of someone being trans than of someone being gay. But I think that to some extent transexposure can be quite bittersweet.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
17:25 / 04.11.03
< livid >
The six contestants' case against Sky and Brighter Pictures, which is a subsidiary of Big Brother producer Endemol, is expected to include the claim that the companies conspired to commit a sexual assault on the grounds the men did not consent to being fondled by a man.
< /livid >

You little fuckbakes! This deserves to get turned down by any court immediately. If a court agrees to this defense then rapists of trans-people could use the similar argument that 'they didn't realise ze was a man/woman' to sue their victims...
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
18:25 / 04.11.03

Phobias often tend to be manufactured arbitrarily... there were, of course, times when people never questioned homosexuality, but now it's been demonised by the church and the media...


I'm not sure if that is meant to be serious or not. However, I have a feeling that the institutions you mention would probably track down and persecute transpeople perfectly efficiently even if transitioning was not commonly communicated. Whereas, in a perverse sort of a way, this is somehow a forward step, since, although a rather depressing one; after all, Sky and Endemol felt that there would be a worthwhile audience, even if that audience was watching out of prurience - that is, that he audience would not be so disgusted as to avoid it, and thus damage advertising sales. It's a pretty nasty crumb of comfort, of course...
 
 
SMS
22:38 / 04.11.03
Our Lady of..., I don't follow your reasoning. If the court were to rule this as sexual assault, surely it would be on the grounds that what appeared to be consensual was not because the consent was based on false pretenses. In the case of rape, there is no apparent consent to begin with.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
09:42 / 05.11.03
I'm not sure if that is meant to be serious or not. However, I have a feeling that the institutions you mention would probably track down and persecute transpeople perfectly efficiently even if transitioning was not commonly communicated.

It was indeed intended seriously, but rather hastily written and badly conveyed. Basically, I mean that with many forms of discrimination, "neutral" is the default position and exposure of minority groups doesn't necessarily mean greater acceptance. Racism's presumably the easiest example; though it's impossible to answer the question, "Is racism innate?" I think one would be hard pressed to claim that people's natural reaction to others with a different skin tone to their own would be as bad as the "average" reaction of someone, say, forty years ago or, arguably, even now. Surely this could be attributed to "negative exposure"?

What people's "natural" reaction to those with sexualities other than straight (i.e. what their reaction would be on coming across such a person without any prior knowledge) would be is perhaps a little more difficult to judge. However, There have been, and I think still are, societies where sexuality was/is barely an issue or not an issue at all. Is this the default position, or is the level of homo- (or whatever-) phobia present in our society natural, with these societies being examples of places where people have actually been conditioned to accept varying sexualities?

And "one further", transness; the average reaction here in the UK is still of shock and horror, but is this a "natural reaction" or a reaction caused by what media coverage the subject receives? From what I gather, in Thailand transpeople are accepted as the gender as which they present themselves, whether they are able to "pass" or not. Again, the default position, or due to transexposure in the country?

Of course, unless one were able to test reactions of a large group of completely unconditioned people (except, of course, such people presumably wouldn't even have any concepts of gender, so...), it's impossible to tell.

As to whether "the institutions I mention" would track down and persecute transpeople regardless of exposure: would they? Would they see it as an issue? And surely if you're referring to the media, how "commonly communicated" the issue is would depend on whether or not they did track transpeople down.

Perhaps because of the sensationalist nature of the press, their default position on any "deviant" behaviour will automatically be extremely right-wing, and therefore the first exposure in the media of any issue such as transness will always be negative, regardless of what the "natural reaction" of the public would be. Par exemple, while an "average unconditioned person" might react neutrally to discovery of different sexualities, press reporting it for the first time may be much more predisposed to take a Shock Horror attitude. And therefore perhaps time and greater debate will always be required for the reporting of any such matter to shift towards a more liberal view.

Does all that make sense?

Whereas, in a perverse sort of a way, this is somehow a forward step, since, although a rather depressing one; after all, Sky and Endemol felt that there would be a worthwhile audience, even if that audience was watching out of prurience - that is, that he audience would not be so disgusted as to avoid it, and thus damage advertising sales.

Mmm... I'm not sure that follows. If a program about the gay scene depicted those involved as baby-sacrificing monsters, the fact that people tuned in to watch it certainly wouldn't mean a "forward step" in acceptance, just because the public weren't so disgusted by the mere thought of queerness as to avoid a program about it.

Our Lady of..., I don't follow your reasoning. If the court were to rule this as sexual assault, surely it would be on the grounds that what appeared to be consensual was not because the consent was based on false pretenses. In the case of rape, there is no apparent consent to begin with.

Do I understand that you seriously believe the men are justified in their claim?

So if she turned out to be wearing a wig, could they scream, "Argh, sexual assault! I didn't consent to sexual contact with a girl wearing a wig!"... or if she had prosthetic breasts, "Argh, sexual assault! I didn't consent to sexual contact with someone without *real* breasts!"...

... Or if she was post-op? "Argh, sexual assault! I didn't consent to sexual contact with someone who wasn't *born* with that genitalia!"

Claim that these "lads" could legitimately cry sexual assault based on something they didn't know about the girl in question, and you're on very, very dodgy ground indeed.
 
 
Pingle!Pop
10:04 / 05.11.03
Oh, an extra note:

If you really want to look for a court case in all this, I'd suggest Miriam vs. what appears to be just about every paper in the country, on defamation charges. Legally, from the moment a transperson first sees their doctor, they're entitled to be referred to by their chosen gender. There's a case I'd love to see won...
 
 
Disco is My Class War
11:13 / 05.11.03
Yeah, me too, although the chances of it actually happening are about a million to one, ever.

What strikes me about this whole thing is the importance of the genitalia. The 'dominant' perspective is that gender rests, or is born out, between your legs. This is why some people on this thread, for example, are squicked and think there were 'false pretenses' going on. She still has a cock, so obviously she's still a man. But she isn't -- she's a woman -- and who care we to say whether she considers herself to have a cock or not? That gender (and sex, in fact) necessarily has nothing to do with genitalia is still a new concept. But then again, the twentieth century was *all about* genitalia being held responsible for one thing or another. (Freud, Melanie Klein, Lacan, etc etc etc phallus etc etc etc)

The brain will the twenty-first century's answer to the genitalia. On another list I've been participating in a flamewar all week about whether a) transgender boys/men should be able to call themselves 'transmen' before they're begun T or started surgery and b) whether we (ie the trans 'community', the list I'm on) should accept that transsexuality is neurological or biologically determined. A lot of people within the trans 'communities' would like it if the idea of brain sex were accepted in a mainstream fashion.

The more squeamish participants in this discussion might want to take note of the enormous number of TG/TS autobiographies in which individuals have sustained long-term relationships in their chosen gender without divulging the fact that they were, or weren't, born with the 'right' pink bits. The lengths these people have gone to, to make sure they were never found out (not being naked around your partner, never fucking with the lights on, etc) indicates the level of fear of transphobia that being 'found out' could unleash.
 
 
SMS
14:46 / 05.11.03
Do I understand that you seriously believe the men are justified in their claim?

No. I'm going to withhold judgment on that.

So if she turned out to be wearing a wig, could they scream, "Argh, sexual assault! I didn't consent to sexual contact with a girl wearing a wig!"

I'm just going to appeal to common sense, here. There's a very big difference between gender and wigs. Or gender and breast implants. If the claim that this is sexual assault were ruled justified, I don't think you wind up on a kind of slippery slope.

But, really the heart of the disagreement on this matter, I think, is in the business about gender not being determined by genetalia. I don't think we'd get anywhere arguing on this point. I certainly understand a number of reasons for saying one ought to be able to determine hir gender by the gender with which xe identifies. Transfolks who have lied to their sexual partners over an extended intimate relationship certainly have their reasons and it is terrible that they have to be fearful of telling the truth. I would encourage anyone to be honest about their sex, at least with their intimates.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:14 / 05.11.03
I think that you can look at this from one of two perspectives.

You can see this as absurd because the men had such a strong reaction to one body part. They literally had a severe response to the genitalia of one human being (one might add genitalia that they themselves possess and really should be used to by now). Now that's fine but you'd think they would be able to work through it. Realising you've snuggled up to someone who is in fact not of the sex you thought they were isn't that bad a thing to experience and they simply didn't know. Now who's to say they don't still have a right to sue. In actual fact they might not even feel that bad about the experience but still sue for the money and pretend to be disturbed (I would but I am a little mercenary).

On the other hand you can see this as a reaction by very shocked people. Disturbed because their sexuality has been attacked, and make no mistake, it has. These men aren't bi or homosexual, they're not necessarily even homophobic because we know that homophobia and heterosexuality do not go hand in hand. These production companies have basically put a group of straight men in a position that they would never choose to be in on purpose and they've made a public and controversial TV show out of it. They have a right to sue and something inside me says they shouldn't necessarily lose as long as this is action against the company rather than the woman. Yes it's screwed up that people have such a strong reaction to one part of the body when they can fancy everything else but that does not, under any circumstance, make it right to put men in such a position.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
15:20 / 05.11.03
I just want to make it clear that I don't support the reactions of these men and would hope that no one I know would react so ridiculously but rather think that the company has mistreated people.
 
  

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