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Suicide

 
  

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gornorft
10:51 / 14.10.03
At what point is it OK to decide that enough is enough? What right do you have to say "Fuck It" and follow through with the logic that if one blood pressure tablet will take your BP from 180/120 to 120/80, then 60 would probably convert it to something more like 000/000? I'm not asking if it's big or clever, but if you really HATE your life, and you should decide to take that option, should those left behind (assuming there are any that matter in your life) think "HOW DARE HE?"?????" or "yeah, fair enough!"?

I guess you can't influence what people are going to think afterwards, and, let's face it, at that stage it's a moot point, but does someone who decides to depart a bad situation deserve to be thought of badly?

Oh God I just KNOW I'm gonna hit "Post Topic" on this one and wish I hadn't...
 
 
Ganesh
11:07 / 14.10.03
Depends. Depends on the nature of their bad situation, depends who else is involved, depends who else they've involved, depends how they do it. Depends if they do it.

Why did you post this?
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
11:33 / 14.10.03
Actually, they're less likely to think "How dare he?" and more likely to think stuff like "Oh shit, how could this happen?" "How could I have not seen this coming?" "What more could I have done to prevent it?" or "How could he leave me like that?"

People may not think of you badly, but they're going to think of you a lot. Do this, and you will be rattling around inside a lot of people's heads till the day they die.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
11:36 / 14.10.03
A variety of responses in my head:

Al Alvarez' book, The Savage God, makes a lot of sense to many people. Alvarez looks at suicide from various perspectives, and knows the subject from personal experience. Worth reading.

In my experience, suicide almost always provokes rage - open or not - in those left behind. It appears to imply that the friendships and loving relationships the suicide abdicates are worth nothing.

For some, suicide is the alternative to a painful death. In that situation, I believe I could accept it, though I don't know that I would choose it.

If the problem is that life is intolerable, however, and appears to the potential suicide to be worth nothing, it seems to me that there are better ways of shedding these burdens than just closing the show. Buckminster Fuller reportedly rejected suicide as a young man, and chose instead to become an experiment in living - his own life was worth nothing, so he'd make it a gift to the world. That's a better way, to me. If your life is meaningless to you, then pick something that needs doing and burn yourself out in pursuit of it, spare yourself nothing, and see what you achieve. Give yourself away. People often criticse suicide as 'selfish' - perhaps it is. For my money, ending your life by giving it away is far better than taking it yourself. You can even find ways to die doing it if you absolutely have to - insanely dangerous relief and rescue work, that kind of thing.

Personally, I reject suicide because you don't get to enjoy the release it seems to provide.

If you're asking if suicide is a sin - in a humanist, rather than a religious sense - I don't know. But I don't see it gets you anything.
 
 
Matthew Fluxington
11:38 / 14.10.03
My friend and I were talking about suicide yesterday. We both agree that it's one of the lamest things anyone can ever do.
 
 
Seth
11:38 / 14.10.03
I guess you can't influence what people are going to think afterwards

Of course you can. You could set in motion an unstoppable chain of events, for example: a plan to control robots through faulty operating systems, triggered by sympathetic vibrations caused by the wind whistling through skyscrapers, making them go haywire and destroy a lot of reclaimed land. I can't believe you hadn't thought of that.
 
 
spidermonkey
11:45 / 14.10.03
I don't know you so I can't tell you what people would think afterwards, but after people I know commited suicide I felt a mixture of ANGER (about the extraordinarily selfish thing they had done), REGRET (that I hadn't done more to stop it happening) and RESPECT (that they managed to do something I've never quite had the balls to).

I have to say that I agree with Nick though that if you think it through as a solution to an unhappy life it seems pointless......but then if it's the only option left?
 
 
gornorft
12:14 / 14.10.03
Nick:
"If your life is meaningless to you, then pick something that needs doing and burn yourself out in pursuit of it, spare yourself nothing, and see what you achieve. Give yourself away."
That's a FUCKING brilliant idea!

Ganesh:
"Why did you post this?"
Coz I've managed to talk myself out of the concept for about 2 months, and, quite frankly, I've completely run out of reasons not to just bugger off out of it.

MordantCarnival:inyourdreams:
"Do this, and you will be rattling around inside a lot of people's heads till the day they die."
To be perfectly honest, that IS the idea. Well, not a LOT of people, but a couple in particular...

seth:
"control robots through faulty operating systems, triggered by sympathetic vibrations caused by the wind whistling through skyscrapers, making them go haywire and destroy a lot of reclaimed land. I can't believe you hadn't thought of that...."
Um... Bloody Hell! For some reason reading this has made me completely lose my train of thought. Perhaps I'll still be here tomorrow afterall.

God I'm crap.
 
 
illmatic
12:22 / 14.10.03
Well, I hope your alright and you decide NOT to do this. At the very least get some help, talk to someone - phone counselling or whatever.

I don't know what your situation is, and it might not seem like it now but everything changes, and hopefully you'll be looking back on this in several months time with a severe sense of embarassment, overshadowed, I hope, by an enormous sense of gratitude and relief that you didn't do it.
 
 
Jack Fear
12:27 / 14.10.03
MordantCarnival:inyourdreams:
"Do this, and you will be rattling around inside a lot of people's heads till the day they die."
To be perfectly honest, that IS the idea. Well, not a LOT of people, but a couple in particular...


"...and then you'll all be sorry!"

Jesus. How astonishingly infantile.

How you gonna do it, then? Hold your breath til you turn blue?
 
 
Quantum
12:29 / 14.10.03
First, I agree with Ganesh.
Second, I have some good advice- leave it a year. You're dead forever, right? If you still feel dreadful after a year has passed, then you probably have reason to think about it (although I'd say go to a doctor first). If it passes, you'll probably be quite glad you didn't top yourself after all.
To be perfectly honest, that IS the idea. Well, not a LOT of people, but a couple in particular...
Don't kill yourself to hurt other people, you won't be around to revel in their pain, you'll be dead. If you want to make 'certain people' think, then talk to them.

Dunno why I'm telling you this, I'm sure you know. Don't do it, it's stupid, etc. etc. but if you decide you do, then definitely pull a Buckminster and sacrifice yourself to an objective.
 
 
gornorft
12:51 / 14.10.03
spid:
"after people I know commited suicide I felt a mixture of ANGER (about the extraordinarily selfish thing they had done), REGRET (that I hadn't done more to stop it happening) and RESPECT (that they managed to do something I've never quite had the balls to)"
Mmmmm...
OK so I'm being alarmist again (as usual) and attention seeking (well DERRRRRRR) but I really CAN'T think of a single reason to carry on living this life which bores me to tears (frequently). Perhaps if I bothered to go and see my doctor again she'd give me some antidepressants and everything would seem benign enough to cope with, but what's the point of that? My parents have lived most of their adult lives on the things and all that happened with them was, well... nothing! Ever. Zombieville.

I'm not actually saying goodbye. I'm not actually going to DO anything. I just deleted a sentence that said "I never DO anything" because that's a complete and utter lie. I've done lots of things, particularly recently, what with my moving to the UK from OZ and abandoning my family, friends and business to try to find a life I actually enjoyed. But I failed. I hated living in the UK. I hated living with my cyber-girlfriend. I hated being away from my family.

But since I decided to come home, my family has disowned me. My business has vanished. My friends are on an almost constant suicide watch with me.

Argh... why am I saying these things?

For some reason I've decided to let you people into my life. It's not pretty. It's not fun. I'm sick of it. I'm particularly sick of the way I seem to have decided to air my "dirty laundry" to a bunch of strangers who don't even know a thing about me.

My best friend has been trying to buy me a new kitten to replace the one that my sublet tennants decided to kill in my absence. My landlord is about to kick me out onto the streets because I'm about 6 months behind in the rent. I've had to tell the only girl I ever really loved, who happened to live on the other side oif the world, that I'm never coming to see her again. I've lost my business, my family (see Parents), girlfriend, only chance of ever having a child (which was the one thing I ever really wanted). I'm 42 and I have nothing. I own a shitty $500 bomb of a car, I live in a rented house I can't afford full of old furniture it makes me cry to look at, my business has turned to shit. I just want to give up! Why bother? What the hell am I going to gain by persevering? It's gone. All gone. There's nothing much left and I am not particularly interested in what might happen next.

It's a boring story, why read on?

Nothing to see here. Move along.

Goodbye.
 
 
Papess
12:58 / 14.10.03
I am just going to add a little something to the already wonderful advice and insight here. This kinda keeps me going, I mean, other than my 3 year old (One just can't buggar off on a 3 year old, completely). Someone once told me they stick around, just to see what's next. So, I ask myself:

"What is going to happen next?" and then I stick around to find out. This does two things. One, I don't cash out. Two, it gives me more of a spectator role in life, which is good sometimes, until I am ready to participate fully again.

The other reason I am still kicking...I am a sore loser. I never admit defeat and rarely back down. FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT! FIGHT FOR YOUR LIFE! Meaning, if a metaphor for the situation one is in could be characterized as a fire or raging storm, wouldn't they fight like the dickens to survive it, or would they just let it defeat them? That is how I try to think of it, anyway and I try to remember, nothing is permanent or forever.

Please take care.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
13:04 / 14.10.03
Yes, I do that, wonder what's going to happen next. I find myself thinking, well it's bound to be something interesting even if it's not fun.
 
 
Smoothly
14:04 / 14.10.03
I'm going to obey the topic abstract and refrain from saying 'Don't do it'. But I do agree with May Trix ans AdL. I've sometimes wondered what it would be like to find myself in a suicidal state derived from a rational assessment that my current life just isn't worth bothering with, as opposed to the trapped-in-a-bunker surrounded-by-the-Russian-army variety. With a loaded gun to hand, but without a dead-line, I'm sure I would perpetually find myself thinking, 'I'll give it half an hour'. I mean, I just don't think I could resolve to pull the trigger now rather than, say, after The Simpsons. Unless the alternative to an immediate death was literally torturous, a decision to ignore the possibility of things improving, or just finding something worth doing, just doesn't seem rational to me. Maybe I'm stating the obvious.
 
 
Our Lady of The Two Towers
14:20 / 14.10.03
A few years back I would have suggested checking out alt.suicide.holiday but a couple of trolls on both sides of the argument have made it uninhabitable, you might want to google 'ASH FAQ' though.

I would only say that the reason for suiciding should be to end your own life, if the primary (or secondary or tertiary) reason is to piss someone else off that's something of a waste and, if it's someone you're estranged from, it's probably not going to hurt them as much as you would like them to. Better to piss them off by living a long and succesful life I'd suggest.
 
 
Quantum
14:30 / 14.10.03
JAMM- There's nothing much left and I am not particularly interested in what might happen next.
Contrary to what Trix says about spectating (which can be good advice) I advocate diving in. Nothing is happening? Make something happen. Business bad? If you hate it that much, give it up. Do something else. You've lost all those things you list, which is terrible and you have my sympathy, doesn't it free you a little? If you can consider dying to escape the hideousness, there are a load of lesser things you could do to change your life.
Get a live-in job at a Zoo. Become a talk show host. Learn to juggle fire. Change your name. Learn to live in the bush. Join a monastery.
Get stuck in and throw your weight about, change your life into one you want to live.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
14:32 / 14.10.03
I vaguely knew a girl who committed suicide. She was the girlfriend of a friend and I met her once. She was very severely depressed and one day, without any indication that she was going to do it, on her way home from seeing some friends she walked up to the top of a multi-storey car park and jumped off. It's been about seven months and her boyfriend is still very upset. He sat a vigil by her hospital bed for three days until she died from critical injuries Since then I have assumed that suicide is not a planned thing. Perhaps it's mulled over for a while but not the action at a particular time. Just a sudden realisation that you can't manage anymore because if you do that all the time- wonder what's next- you're bound to snap eventually. It must be something to do with stepping out of your headspace because there's no particular rhyme or reason to pulling that trigger. People manage or they stop managing.

I like to hold on to the fact that life is actually weird and very amusing. My grandfather and my nan died within weeks of each other (this was years ago) and the first thing I did on hearing about the second death was scream with laughter because it was so damn ironic. People generally have got to see the humour in the bad and just tread on it. A sense of humour is the thing that gets people through because life is wildly chaotic and hysterically funny but it all turns out okay in the end. You've just got to wait until the badness is over.
 
 
Tom Coates
14:55 / 14.10.03
Personally, I can't help thinking that if you actually want help to decide what to do, then you'd be better off trying to talk to a counsellor who would be more able to advise you than the rest of us here.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
14:55 / 14.10.03
Justified Ancient:

It seems to me that you're not looking to end your life, you're desperately hoping to find a way to start it.

A brief Google Search ("buckminster fuller suicide") yielded this article/interview, and another here which includes the following snatch of bio:

In 1927, jobless and distraught over the death of his daughter five years earlier, Richard Buckminster Fuller contemplated suicide. Instead of killing himself, he decided to live the rest of his life as an experiment for the benefit of humankind. He re-christened himself "Guinea Pig B" (B stood for Bucky) and set out to change the world."

Fuller was of a scientific bent, so he saw himself as an experiment, and became an engineer/inventor. You could set yourself almost any task, as long as you're prepared to commit, totally, to the same lunatic dedication. You're in Australia, right? There are political and social issues aplenty for you to choose from. Or you can pick up the phone and call Medecins Sans Frontiers. (They have a page for people who want to volunteer. You'll see they want paramedics - you could be one in, what, six months? Otherwise, if you talk to them and find someone sympathetic, you may find that they'll accept you for the simple fact of total committment. But if they do, you cannot back away, even when the bombs start falling. You gave them your life, remember? You lost the right not to risk it when you did that.)

Save some human lives. Beats a kitten. And none of the crap which is getting you down matters a damn in the face of the realities you'll have to deal with. But you'll be dealing with that stuff for a reason, a simple, powerful, excellent reason, which will be around you all the time.

You say it's a boring story you're telling, and in a way you're right. You're so bored and tired of it that you're actually thinking of giving up your life. And you as-good-as admitted you're doing that to make a point to people who've been unkind. To hell with that. Take an alternative like MSF and no one has the right to talk down to you.

Here's the Red Cross homepage, and RSF, Index, and Amnesty Australia to get you started. You could even join and reform the Church of Australia.

You don't have to do anything charitable, even. You can decide to make films, or learn to teach the techniques of Monty Roberts. But whatever you do, do it with everything you have. Do it obsessively, scarily, intemperately. But do it right, and stick to it.

What have you got to lose?
 
 
Ganesh
22:13 / 14.10.03
Ganesh:
"Why did you post this?"
Coz I've managed to talk myself out of the concept for about 2 months, and, quite frankly, I've completely run out of reasons not to just bugger off out of it.


That doesn't answer my question - especially when you append "I'm not after posts telling me not to do it". Why are you telling us about it?
 
 
Olulabelle
22:20 / 14.10.03
Nick, that's such a lovely post. All your links, all the research.

Justified Ancient, look at the amount of work Nick has put in in trying to help you, to pursuade you that you have other options. Is Nick a member of your family or a close friend? No? But he still cares enough to do that. Some people have no-one at all.
 
 
w1rebaby
22:35 / 14.10.03
Missed this somehow.

The things that have resulted in my not committing suicide in the past is basically the thought that, while life is shit and looks hopeless at the time, it is theoretically possible to have fun, and when you're dead... well, there is no "when you're dead". Death is not an alternative life.

Can you really say that suicidal thoughts aren't really just a way of saying "I need to change my life" in the most extreme way possible? In which case it's best to change your life.
 
 
Less searchable M0rd4nt
23:07 / 14.10.03
BTW: Justified Ancient? I know you said you weren't looking for posts saying "don't do it", but... erm...

Please don't do it.
 
 
Rage
23:17 / 14.10.03
Watch the movie Heathers on MDMA. Everything will be fine. Seriously.
 
 
Jack Fear
23:25 / 14.10.03
That's your answer to eeeeverything...
 
 
Leisure
23:32 / 14.10.03
Anecdotal evidence against suicide (sorry to do it this way, but it's the only approach I have for the topic)....

Two and half years ago, my girlfriend tried to top herself. Was in a coma for two days, then when she came around, gave me a call from a sanitarium a few miles outside of town. Why'd she do it? Being seperated from me, ostensibly (what a piss-poor excuse).
I've spent the intervening years trying to get my shit together and turn into a human being again, where I'm not persistantly paralyzed by a fear of fucking someone up. I may or may not have been personally responsible for her actions; she might have done it to get attention, or to shift blame onto me, or force me into taking her confession; whatever the case, I've been stuck with it.
Her attempt, unsucessful though it was, has on a number of occasions nearly helped me to destroy myself. I figure I'm recovered now, but that doesn't keep me from monitoring my every move and emotion as though it were an asp.

Anecdotal #2:
My aunt was down with cancer. Maybe inoperable, maybe not. It's moot now. Point is, she decided that, rather than go under the knife or endure one more day of it, she stopped eating. The hunger strike, on top of the cancer and the intestinal bleeding, did her in.
I missed seeing her, missed delivering her a much-needed apology, missed telling her I loved her, by two hours. I hadn't seen her in eight years; all I got to see was the body at the burial.

I'm not going to tell you what to do, but I will say that your reasoning's probably more fatuous & self-absorbed than mine when I whine about how these suicides have messed my head about. MuMu, if you don't matter to yourself, fine; keep in mind that you're liable to do wrong by countless people you've known and have yet to know.
 
 
Jack Fear
23:38 / 14.10.03
This is a war.

Don't stop fighting.
 
 
Rage
00:41 / 15.10.03
Yes, Jack, but have you heard Big Fun? "Teenage suicide... don't do it!" Who can go wrong with Martha Dumptruck? Let's not even mention how much Christian Slater ruled in that flick. I dare you to watch Heathers on KMFD... er... MDMA and kill yourself. It's simply impossible.
 
 
Ganesh
00:44 / 15.10.03
You're confusing me with Jack Fear, dear.

(Okay, you've edited it. You aren't anymore. Dear.)
 
 
Slim
00:49 / 15.10.03
Are you the only one? No. I could make a long post about this but I'll keep it short:

1)Life has its ups and downs. When depressed I try and remember that there were times when I was happy and there are times when I was not. It's a cycle and it will repeat. If you stick around long enough without giving up, things will change.

2)Fuck you. That's what you gotta think. Fuck you, world. I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do and you aren't gonna stop me. Ever seen that pic of Johnny Cash giving the finger to the camera and generally looking like one mean son of a bitch? That's what you gotta be sometimes.
 
 
pomegranate
00:53 / 15.10.03
don't kill yrself; instead do something crazy, like rob a bank. please. there are people who love you.
 
 
gotham island fae
01:06 / 15.10.03
And the confusion combined with the interplay is killing my diaphragm with screechy laughter.

Rage and Jack Fear, you ARE my barbecrushes.

JAMM, I quoted Mordant about the rattling in others' noggins bit. Yes, you'll be there, but that being is sooooo limited by their consciousness that it can't compare to what we see here.

Or so I think.
 
 
Jack Denfeld
03:17 / 15.10.03
I've always thought of suicide as a way of saying "I don't wanna play anymore." to life. You're done, you don't feel like playing anymore, and screw what anybody thinks because nothing will matter when you're dead anyway. I don't think people who commit suicide are weak people. Some have emotional problems, and some are simply fed up with living.

On the other hand, I'd hate for someone I knew to kill themselves. Possibly because it would make me sad, and I'm selfish.
 
 
espy
03:45 / 15.10.03
I wish I had something helpful or clever to say to you, but honestly, I'm in almost the same mindset as you. I know that I know none of you...actually this is only my second post, so I don't know any of you personally. I have read and lurked a lot, and know that obviously a lot of people on here are intelligent and are willing to help.
The difference in my "depression," however, is that I am not just bored with life but rather am so...upset, angry, something... that I can not understand and comprehend anything beyond the limits of my mind. I often want to be able to do things nobody else can...metaphysical things, or experience things not many people do. I have read about DMT on here and gotten interested in it, however I have no way I can think of obtaining it. For some reason though, I feel like it will give me a chance to experience something more important than normal everyday life.
I guess my point in telling you all this is that I feel like your excuse of ending your life is so different than mine and is, in my opinion, not a really good reason to commit suicide. Maybe I'm being egotistical, or maybe I'm just making excuses for me to be able to end my life rationally or something. I am in counselling, but I still want more opinions...
The thing preventing me from doing it, I think, is the fact that I may be wrong about all this, and that I might be able to be different and do metaphysical things, etc. So if you have anything to say to me, that might help, feel free... and take or leave my opinion, it is up to you.
I'm sorry if this sounds mean, and I'm trying not to be an annoying troll... just another point of view, I guess.
 
  

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