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Women as perpetrators of sexual violence

 
  

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Jack Fear
17:02 / 09.10.03
One for the theorybitches and –bastards: In the "Rape vs Rejection" thread, I opined that rape is violence using the penis as a weapon. To which Spyder quite sensibly asked, "What about women who rape?" To which question I had no real answers.

I'm particularly tussling with the notion of a woman perpetrating a rape without an accompanying physical assault beyond the sex (the medium through which the violence of rape is expressed) itself. That is, can rape by a woman be mistaken for / masquerade as "regrettable sex," the way that male-on-female date rape can?

If a woman, say, sodomizes a man or another woman with an object or a fist, there's overt physical assault. If a woman, I dunno, forces a guy to go down on her at gunpoint, there's the threat of assault.

But neither of these examples couches rape in the form of heterosexual penetrative intercourse, which is how the vast majority of male-on-female rape is expressed. This begs the question: can HPI be a vehicle for woman to rape a man?

Some find the question absurd, or would indeed find the very notion of a "female rapist" oxymoronic. Biology provides a major stumbling block: HPI cannot occur without the sexual arousal of the male. Arousal would seem to imply consent, right?

Unless, of course, the male is below the age of consent. The vast majority of women charged with rape are tried for just this crime, sex with an underage boy, or statutory rape. This is often seen as being rape only in a technical sense—while the sex may have been consensual, the boy's consent is legally invalid because of his age. (See related underlying assumptions about the perpetual horniness of teenage boys.)

Let's leave aside, for the moment, arguments surrounding the legal notion of the Age of Consent: it's a complex question, and, for purposes of this discussion, a red herring. My question is this: Does arousal truly imply consent? Can a boy or a full-grown man be manipulated or pressured into HPI? Can a man with a stiff prick honestly say that he doesn't want to have sex right now?

And if a woman who threatens, cajoles, and coerces a man into HPI, can it truly be called "rape"?
Or is it just "regrettable sex"?

Was he "asking for it"?

Is there a double standard?
Should there be a double standard?

Is female-on-male rape underreported and underprosecuted, for just this reason?

What's the history of feminist theory and thinking on this issue—with regards to boys & younger men, and also with regard to one's male peers?

I've got a few more thoughts about power and control, stereotyping, emotional manipulation and mental violence, but I'd like to hear some other voices and perspectives before I frame them.
 
 
tom-karika nukes it from orbit
19:51 / 09.10.03
You know, I can't claim to be a big expert on the exact physics of raping men, but there is mechanism (drugs) to induce arousal which could be used without consent (spiking drinks for instance).
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
23:08 / 09.10.03
Err...yeah. Claiming that arousal implies consent is a real slippery slope. Consent of intercourse is implied after a bit of clumsy, consentual groping resulting in arousal? I'd argue not.
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
01:39 / 10.10.03
Arousal inducing drugs aside, yeah, I do think arousal is consent in the case of men.

I'm a guy, and I don't believe it would be possible for me to gain and keep an erection in a situation where I felt I was physically threatened. It's just not possible.
 
 
Murray Hamhandler
02:18 / 10.10.03
While asleep/half-asleep, perhaps?

And anyway, it's not really about maintaining, is it? Rape doesn't necessitate ejaculation/orgasm.

I'm a pretty small guy and I've dated some statuesque women who could've tossed me around like a whiffle ball if they'd wanted to. I've also woken up to god knows how many sexual encounters initiated by those same women. If the girls in question had been strangers or if intent hadn't been implied by our being in a relationship and the acknowledgment that such encounters were okay between us, I think I'd call a situation like that rape.
 
 
doctorbeck
10:43 / 10.10.03
several points off the top of my head

a massive majority of assaults are perpetrated by men (i would estimate over 98% from the available literature) so there is much less literature / thinking about assaults by women
a large number of assaults by females are perpetrated against females (although discussing this is greatly taboo in the lesbian community and research is patchy as a result of this)
when men are assualted it is normal for them to get an erection this by no means implies consent - i see many straighnt men assualted homosexually who think their erection means that they are in fact gay deep down, same goes for assault by a women, getting an erection does not mean you consented
what constitues an assult by a women is also a tricky one, i find it most helpful to let the victim decide whether what happened was an assualt or not, this problem of definitions really messes up the literature on this

sorry this is a bit random, unfortunatley busy

peace

a
 
 
Foust is SO authentic
10:43 / 10.10.03
I still can't see myself being physically able to engage in vaginal intercourse against my will. I don't understand how it could happen to any guy.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:08 / 10.10.03
I rather think we have to extend the whole notion of rape beyond vaginal intercourse. In fact I find the definition of sex that people seem to hold to rather confining but maybe I'm weird in my perception of penetration. I don't know.

The most disturbing thing about this thread and the rape vs. rejection thread is for me, beyond a doubt, that the majority of responses have come from men. It's not that I believe for one second that women should have more to say about this subject but I do think that they need to push forward and try to bring some reason in because I'm finding some of the male comments reactionary and over the top. I think men find the whole notion of rape more difficult than women, I'm not sure why but generally that seems to be the case among the men I know. If anyone can shed some light on why than I'd really like to hear it.

Rape is a touchy subject, these threads show us just how touchy. This in particular is difficult because no one seems to know anything about women who rape people- there's also an assumption that women would rape men but as doctorbeck points out, some women rape other women. If rape is about violence over the sexual act than does gender remain an object?

At the end of the day every rape case is different. You have different kinds of rape- serial rapists and one offs. There are different genders raping the opposite sex or the same sex. It's difficult to talk about rape because of these things and because it's a taboo subject. Rapists scare the fuck out of people but this shouldn't stop us distinguishing between them.

Having said all of that I don't think this discussion is working because no one has any information on female rapists. It's becoming an entirely male centred discussion and the focus is on the victims alone. How they can stay hard, the methods of consent, this isn't about women who rape men, it's about the way in which a man can be raped. Perhaps the thread title and the abstract need to be modified?
 
 
Kit-Cat Club
12:32 / 10.10.03
there's also an assumption that women would rape men but as doctorbeck points out, some women rape other women. If rape is about violence over the sexual act than does gender remain an object?

I recall an ex-member of this board describing her experience of being raped during a play session by her partner, who ignored their safe word. She found this experience deeply upsetting. So no, I don't think gender really does remain an object. It's perfectly possible to conceive of a woman donning a strap-on and raping a man, after all.
 
 
some guy
23:33 / 10.10.03
I don't believe it would be possible for me to gain and keep an erection in a situation where I felt I was physically threatened.

It's quite common for some men to become (unintentionally) aroused in flight/fight situations.
 
 
Goodness Gracious Meme
14:41 / 12.10.03
This is a very interesting and difficult topic, will have a think and come back, but I agree about this being an uninformed discussion. A bit of searching turns up some articles...

Sexual Assault: Clinical Issues Female offenders of sexual assault

Male Rape Bibliography

From the same site, some more information/resources

quick spiel from a rape awareness centre
 
 
penitentvandal
18:03 / 12.10.03
This does seem to be more about whether women could rape men than their reasons for doing it, doesn't it? Maybe the question should be broadened to ask whether women are as prone to the desire to rape as men are; in which case obviously we need some opinions from female posters. The problem with those, though, is that such evidence is likely to be (a) highly anecdotal and (b) self-selecting. Somehow I can't see the female members of Barbelith being consumed with the desire to go about violating males. Maybe we need to hire a market research firm.

It does remind me of a conversation I had a few years back with a mate of mine, where I claimed, very loudly, that it was impossible (not just unlikely, impossible - that's the kind of thinker I was in those days) for women to rape men. He told me to stop being such a macho bastardm which is why I remember the conversation to this day: not because of the topic, but because it's the only time I've ever been called macho.
 
 
Bill Posters
16:24 / 15.10.03
weeel, if we look at military rape... this is generally regarded as a way of males feminizing males, and brutalising and possibly 'ethnically' attaking females (in so far as thay might carry a child of a different ethnicity to their own). It prolly goes on in most conflicts, it certainly went on in 'Nam, and the first Gulf War, and Former Yugoslavia. What is interesting in that latter case is that allegedly (and this is not easy to prove, mind), when females (soldiers or civilians) captured males, rather than sodomizing them, they castrated them. The symbolic equivalent of a male raping a female might therefore be a female castrating a man. (Oh and of course the Bobbit case was a similar revenge-for-rape-castration.) I hope this isn't off topic, I don't mean it to be, but obviously I acknowledge that the motive of such women would presumably be to brutalise, avenge, not to satisfy themselves sexshully. (I must say, I was initially surprised that these women did not anally rape these men, but then it ocurred to me that castration would be far worse than rape, at least, IMHO it would be.)
 
 
BBC 2
10:34 / 16.10.03
I don't post very often to Barbelith so I apologise if I appear random or am repeating stuff other people have said elsewhere on these boards.

First, I think the problem is the word 'rape'. It insinuates forced penetrative sex proceeded by violence or as an act of violence. Anatomically wise, only men are able to perform this. However, rape is an act of violence over an act of sex, and men are often on the receiving end of this as well as women. More than 2 % of men, I would say.

Shouldn't the discussion really be called Women Who Commit Sexual Assaults? This can include women baby sitters who fondle their charges or a shy 18 year old male set upon and groped by his predominantly female work colleagues. I would say that these are examples of acts of violence the same way 'rape' is.

Anyway, what I'm trying to get to saying is, the same percentage of men have probably experienced some form of sexual assault as women and therefore 'sexual assault' is a social or human issue rather than just a feminist one.
 
 
Jack Fear
13:00 / 16.10.03
Emphatically agreed on your closing points, Beeb 2.

I would differ with you definitions, though, in that the defining characteristic of rape isn't so much outright violence as coercion: and that being forced or maneuvered into sex against one's will, even if no hand is raised in anger, is rape.

And is (though it may not seem so on the surface) a violent crime. There's violence and then there's violence, if you get me—and verbal coercion constitutes violence as surely as does a cosh to the head. The violence is in the very lack of consent.

And not just a lack of overt consent, either, but the lack of legally-defined consent: that's why even ostensibly consensual sex between an adult and a minor is considered rape.
 
 
Creepster
22:29 / 16.10.03
I knew a DJ once who was drugged and raped by a girl in the toilet of a club.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:31 / 16.10.03
That seems rather anecdotal, Creepster, and rather vague. Could you offer further and better particulars?
 
 
Creepster
23:07 / 17.10.03
not really. it was a while ago and thats about all i remember.
 
 
CaseK
08:29 / 18.10.03
Re: this:
"Anyway, what I'm trying to get to saying is, the same percentage of men have probably experienced some form of sexual assault as women and therefore 'sexual assault' is a social or human issue rather than just a feminist one."
I'll happily grant that last bit -- though I'd point out that it being a "feminist" issue has to do with everyone being treated farily & properly, not with its being about girls. However, I think that one can't just say "Oh, boys suffer, too." No one denied that. But "the same percentage"? Do you really think that? It seems to me that "some form" of sexual assault, as I'm gathering it from this thread, has only recently become an issue directed at men. Which is not to say that it doesn't go on, but that's a different thing from a culture that looks at remarks & c. as something you, as a career girl --as a professor, even -- should get over.
 
 
slinkyvagabond
21:53 / 20.10.03
I am trying to gather my thoughts here, forgive me if this comes out skewed.

Firstly, I think the issue here has boiled down to whether or not women are potentially as prone to rape as men and secondly, the definition of rape is apparently a hotly contested topic. It's rather difficult to address the first issue without looking at the second one. Personally, I don't agree with the suggestion that this thread be re-named "women who sexually assualt". While I feel that both sexual assualt and rape are acts of violence designed to undermined the mental and bodily integrity of an individual it seems to me that "rape" is something that achieves this aim more completely than "sexual assault". Be assured that I am not basing my distinction between the two on penetration, I am more of the mind that if the survivor feels it was rape then it was rape - rape being something that, as I've said, undermines the mental and bodily integrity of an individual in an almost total sense. Thus, if a person (male or female) feels that they have been raped by a woman then we should not tell them no, they are wrong, it was sexual assault because it did not involve penetration.

In our culture the word "rape" has more horrific and violent connotations than the phrase "sexual assault". I'm not saying this is the truth but it IS the way we use these terms. To say that men can not be raped but "only" sexually assualted by women is to take their anguish somewhat less seriously.

My definition of rape, then, is very broad. Some people do not have the psychological wherewithal to maintain integrity in the face of verbally based sexual abuse. Trapping someone who is seemingly weaker than you in a situation where they are forced into listening to you telling them all the nasty things you would like to do to them could be considered an act of rape. After all, in this hypothesis you would have used sexual means to gain dominion over another (hmm,"...sexual means to gain dominion over another..." How about I just leave that for my definition and stop talking myself into knots).

I'm sorry but I don't believe that rape is in any way about sexual desire. But I will concede that it is about desire for dominion. Soo, I know there are plenty of women who have such desires. But really, I don't think women rape as much as men do. And I don't even have a theory about why that is (!). One thing I have noticed is that women are often conditioned to be far more passive-agressive than men in achieving control (over others, over situations) - I don't know if this could have anything to do with it because I imagine there are plenty of passive-agressive rapists out there, especially those that commit "date-rape". I do think that women are conditioned to see themselves in more passive terms, so that the idea of taking power in such a directly domineering way as rape may not occur to women the way it does to men who are more often than not conditioned to go out there and grab what they want.

But the subject of female on male rape is convoluted further by the conditioning most men are subjected to, that is: men are not victims. A man might be coerced into extremely self destructive sexual acts by a woman, might feel the psychological and physical damage that this has caused but may never consider himself a rape victim because he has been saturated with data that tells him that women are weaker beings, they do not impose their will on others because their will is not strong enough to be imposed and furthermore men are strong enough in will so as not to EVER allow their will to be undermined by a woman.

Even the most right-on of New Men has doubtlessly absorbed some of these values - we can see from this very thread that men have difficulty coming to terms with the idea of female on male rape. And I think a lot of that stems from the fact that a lot of men have difficulty in believing that a woman is capable of breaking down a male will to such a great extent, to the extent that he will be forced to give all his bodily power to her. Note that most men have no trouble believing that male on male rape occurs. It is understood that amongst men there are strata of power (I SO want to say stratas...I know, I know, it's so wrong, but it feels so right...) - some men are strong enough to hold dominion of any kind over other, weaker men.

It is also understood, it would seem, that even a strong woman is of a lower stratum than the weakest man, at least in terms of bodily dominion ( although, to clarify, when I say "strong" I don't necessarily mean physical strength). My point, the one I'm slowly trying to tease out of my tired brain, is that not only will men not report female on male rape, they may not even believe it could happen. I realise this contradicts somewhat what I was saying about my defintion of rape but for my views on contradiction please see Walt Whitman's "Song of Myself". Bottom line is that men seem to find the concept of bad things happening to them very difficult - won't admit to weird lumps in groin area, can't countenance the idea of female on male rape. I am presuming that this difficulty stems from the overriding cultural wisdom that tells men that they are strong, invioable fighters and victors and I deeply sympathsise. Such an awful thing, not being permitted to have any weaknesses.

Anyway, it's under-reported in a number of senses. It's a matter of redressing one's worldview - we know that "date-rape" effectively didn't exist unil women began believing it was happening to them and vocalising that. What we think of as rape was just an occupational hazard of dating or marriage or whatever no so long ago.

It's unfortunate that there's still a lot of guff about how men are always up for sex and would always enjoy it and yadda yadda because those kind of sentiments are very similar to the old-fashioned view that if a woman accepted a date with a guy or went up to his room or whatever she was basically giving her consent - both veiws deny their subjects' agency. And it's a pity that the issue of female rapists isn't taken as seriously as that of male rapists as it seems that by looking at the need of certain females to gain dominion over another through sexual means would improve all round understanding of rape and power.

It's easier to divorce female rape from the sexual violation and to concentrate on the domination/power, which is of course, what rape is about. People can often still subscribe to the view that men are just so horny and full of testosterone that they absolutely MUST fuck and if they're not given the opportunity to do so, well, then they'll seize it. Female rapists problematize (ugh) this erroneous belief - plus because it is generally impossible for a woman to physically force a man into submission against his will I would imagine that female rapists would employ more complex mental coercion, more drawn out cat-and-mouse games with their victims, demonstrating further that rape is about gaining dominion and not about expending pent-up sexual energy in onne short, grab-and-penetrate burst.

I've read through this and some of it makes some sense to me. I hope it comes across. I'm too tired to neatly summarise.
 
 
Rollo Kim, on location
10:36 / 21.10.03
A certain American writer recently described his own real-life experience at the hands of a woman who induced an erection with the use of an electrostimulator [which is inserted into the anus and looks like some kind of high-tech dildo - normally used on animals] as a 'hellish, brutal rape'.
 
 
Bill Posters
15:15 / 21.10.03
which is inserted into the anus and looks like some kind of high-tech dildo - normally used on animals

hmm... suggesting the possibility that humans (male or female) might regularly 'rape' male animals when they extract their semen in such a way? Yikes...

Also, if anti-prostitution feminists are correct in saying prostitution is a form of financial rape, wouldn't a lady paying for a gigolo be financially raping him too, at least, by the logic of that argument?
 
 
some guy
15:50 / 21.10.03
I'm sorry but I don't believe that rape is in any way about sexual desire. But I will concede that it is about desire for dominion.

I'm not so sure about this - if rape was only about "desire for dominion" then why does it manifest sexually instead on non-sexually? It seems to me that something messier is happening, some confluence of domination and desire and perhaps even loathing. I think the "it's about power and nothing else" train of thought is a way to make us feel more comfortable with what is a decidedly uncomfortable subject, but it's not very helpful.
 
 
Ex
12:32 / 22.10.03
Also, if anti-prostitution feminists are correct in saying prostitution is a form of financial rape, wouldn't a lady paying for a gigolo be financially raping him too, at least, by the logic of that argument?

I think feminist attempts to link prostitution, rape and wider schemes of social power would make the point that gender is precisely not as symmetrical as your reversal would suggest.
An analysis that see female prostitution as sexual abuse would probaby reference the problems (in type and pay) of female employment, and the cultural prohibitions on female sexual expression and control.
In such a context, a woman employing a gigolo is probably sexually exploiting him, but this act isn't tying into a wider system of economic and sexual oppression (this is a purely gender-based analysis, and gender's never pure, of course - if one brings in class, for example, it's easy to see sex work for men as exploitative in a way that involves wider systems of power).
It would probably also argue that male prostitution is rare enough to be a quirk in the system, rather than the exemplary or grounding act of gender relations.
So the financial and sexual status of women in general, and the imbalance of who buys and who sells, are why sex work can be seen as a situation which takes the cocking biscuit for gendered exploitation of women, rather than the agreed exchange of services between equals.
Not necessarily defending the viewpoint, just elaborating it.
 
 
Tryphena Absent
09:37 / 23.10.03
I hope you'll excuse my use of language here. I'm probably a bit off from the dictionary definition of violation but it is purposeful.

I started to really think about women who rape with regards to power and control the other day. It seems to me that women are socially and biologically trained to be violated. We take things inside us, the act of penetration is a violation even when it's done with consent. Women get pregnant and the baby violates and takes control of the female body for nine months. Every woman expects to be violated at some time and in some way even if they retain power over the act.

Men don't expect to be treated in that way at all because it isn't bred in to them from a young age. They are brought up to be the violator. Now I'm sure I'm recounting a load of feminist theory from the late '70s here and it must have been applied to rape at some point but it's pretty obvious why less men are raped by women and why less women rape altogether. Society is shocked by female rapists because they are denying the conditioning that has been spent on them. Something really outside of the norm has to have happened to create a woman who rapes. A man who rapes still exists to a certain extent within society's frame of the gender role.

It is ridiculous to claim that rape is in no way a sexual act but that's not what people have said in this thread. The claim is that rape does not stand with sexual desire. Sexual want simply doesn't motivate rape, the need to violate does. That doesn't necessarily completely seperate rape and sex because those things can't be split in two but it does seperate motivation and act and that's a pretty simple idea to get your head round.
 
 
some guy
11:11 / 23.10.03
We take things inside us, the act of penetration is a violation even when it's done with consent.

So we're all violated when we eat? When we breathe? Are we violated by microbes and bacteria as we walk down the street? "Violation with consent" is nonsensical.

The claim is that rape does not stand with sexual desire.

I agree this is the case in many scenarios, but by no means is it the case in all. Assigning a single motivation to a complex act committed by different people in different circumstances is a bit bold, no?
 
 
Tryphena Absent
11:25 / 23.10.03
Well germs do violate us, they make us ill and unable to function properly but the point is that we're brought up to see sex as violation. The other sex has a part of the body constructed to enter us but that doesn't mean it is in no way a violation. Sometimes you think you want something and it turns out you don't, sometimes women say no after they've been penetrated but it's still not a violation? Food is only translated as an act of violation if you have an eating disorder. Bulimics consent to eat but then throw it up, I think that some of them probably feel violated. So no I don't think violation with consent is nonsensical at all.

Assigning a single motivation to a complex act committed by different people in different circumstances is a bit bold, no?

I agree but I'm not limiting my view to a singular motivation. Rape is complex for everyone but I still don't think it's motivated by sexual desire. Sexual aggression maybe, previous sexual assault and misogyny maybe but not desire because if you desire someone you usually need them to desire you back. In fact you desire that they desire you.
 
 
some guy
11:57 / 23.10.03
the point is that we're brought up to see sex as violation.

Um, where were you raised?

So no I don't think violation with consent is nonsensical at all.

If you consent, it's no longer violation, is it?

Rape is complex for everyone but I still don't think it's motivated by sexual desire.

This gets tricky very quickly. Is pedophila rape? What about statutory rape? What about those who intepret prostitution as rape? You yourself seem to view even consensual intercourse as violation - not a stone's throw from rape (and of course there are the people who view any kind of intercourse as rape). Is sexual desire not present in any of these?

Sexual aggression maybe, previous sexual assault and misogyny maybe but not desire because if you desire someone you usually need them to desire you back. In fact you desire that they desire you.

Yeah, but then again a lot of these people inevitably claim "she was asking for it."
 
 
Tryphena Absent
12:31 / 23.10.03
where were you raised?

London and I was surrounded by teen magazines. If I was a radical feminist I'd probably point out that you come from an entirely different social background to me. That you were brought up to be an aggressor, that you will never carry a baby and while this doesn't define womanhood I don't think you quite understand the reality of pregnancy and the implications of sex and yes, I extend that to every single man on the face of this planet.

However I'm not quite that radical so instead I simply have to say, I think that's a shoddy argument. Go out and buy New Woman and FHM and tell me you don't immediately notice the difference in the way that they're geared. This difference indicates gender roles and that's where the whole notion of violation arises.

If you consent, it's no longer violation, is it?

I've already answered that and put a brief disclaimer at the top of my first post. Did you want me to copy and paste it here again?

I'm not even sure where to start with the rest. Firstly why would paedophilia in general be rape? Being a paedophile doesn't make you a rapist. Rape is rape, you rape a child, it's rape, you lust after a child but do nothing at all and you're not committing the act of rape. Prostitution can be distinguished from rape, it is just as complex and difficult and often just as nasty but the term rape can't be applied unless someone is forced against their will. I do view consensual intercourse as violation to a certain degree but I also know that it is violation with consent and thus not rape. Violation does not immediately rule out the idea that a person can consent to it and I think that the vast majority of women do. In fact none of these things are rape because rape is a non-consensual sexual act and you haven't actually stated that any of these things belong under that heading. Furthermore while you outline each of these things and dump them together you appear to be denying the complexity of each individually defined act. How on earth do you presume to place paedophilia, prostitution and rape together when they are either entirely separate or two acts that emerge one from the other?
 
 
some guy
13:07 / 23.10.03
you were brought up to be an aggressor

You know nothing about me or how I was raised.

I don't think you quite understand the reality of pregnancy and the implications of sex and yes, I extend that to every single man on the face of this planet.

And does this extend to every woman who has not been pregnant? Do fathers not understand the implications of sex? Have you ever been pregnant? If not, on what basis do you make this claim?

I wrote: If you consent, it's no longer violation, is it? and you responded: I've already answered that and put a brief disclaimer at the top of my first post. Did you want me to copy and paste it here again?

As long as you're inventing new definitions I can't really argue with your thesis.

Firstly why would paedophilia in general be rape? Being a paedophile doesn't make you a rapist. Rape is rape, you rape a child, it's rape, you lust after a child but do nothing at all and you're not committing the act of rape.

But doesn't this throw a monkey wrench into the "it's about power" argument?

Furthermore while you outline each of these things and dump them together you appear to be denying the complexity of each individually defined act.

You're missing my point, which is precisely this complexity.

I do view consensual intercourse as violation to a certain degree

Wow. I guess for the sake of the thread I'll bow out here. Apologies to dragging things away from the abstract.
 
 
den
16:13 / 09.04.04
Let's settle this once and for all. I was raped by a woman once. Until recently, I couldn't even talk about it. Anyhow, I was drinking (a lot) and she wasn't, also she was a bodybuilder and, very VERY strong. I'm ashamed to say it but, she actually overpowered me against my will. After she let me go, I was too ashamed and too scared to report her. It was NOT fun, It was scary! The feeling of being so thoughroughly and completely "used" brings terrible fellings of violation that destroys a person's sense of self. A year and a half later I'm...still dealing with the shame, lack of confidence and fear. I find myself scared around certain women now and I never was before. What happened that night was trauma, not fun!
 
 
Char Aina
01:24 / 13.04.04
Sexual want simply doesn't motivate rape, the need to violate does.

always, and forever?
every rape, or at least the overwhelming majority of them, are no more and no less than acts of violence driven by a violation urge?
if, as you say, all penetrative* sex is a violation, then of course penetrative rape is an act of violation. i still see no reason why it cannot be motivated by desire as well.

the problems of how a woman could rape and of whether a man could be raped seem irrelevant to me. as has been mentioned, there are ways to force erection against a man's will, and i could concoct several scenarios of varying degrees of violence and subterfuge in which a man could be seen to be being coerced into sex. a twin pretending to be her sister, perhaps?

i think this lack of belief in the possibility is a symptom of the conditioning that we are all been subjected to; that same conditioning that makes many laugh at the idea of a man being raped while less would were the same to regard a woman. it is risible because it seems ridiculous, despite evidence to the contrary.



*
sex as penetration is seemingly 'feminazi101'. i recall fondly a discussion of a lecture with a close female friend, a lecture in which we had been told heterosexual sex=penetration and therefore also heterosexual sex=violence. it seemed that no matter the context of the relationship, the lecturer was unwilling to accept the idea that my friend had put her hand up to explain; the idea that what she(the radical lesbian feminist lecturer) called penetration could also be thought of as envelopment. i believe that this determination that sex=penetration comes from the same conditioned place as our beliefs that a man can rape but a woman cannot.
it would appear some feminists seem to actually believe that they are no longer a product of such conditioning, perhaps because they are better read than they once were.
 
 
ONLY NICE THINGS
22:39 / 13.04.04
Out of interest, Toksik, what *exactly* do you feel you bring to the conversation by using the term "feminazi"? That seems to me to be a little bit of a violent ritual there - putting the bad ideology in its place, giving it a nice derogatory name that identifies it as evil... *that*, it occurs to me, is all about power.

Which has got me thinking.. we're explicitly *not* talking about penetration as symbolic of sexual violence, or at least not in the traditionally understood sense. We are talking about, or at least Jack Fear was asking about situations in which the same sexual act that generally characterises rape (not looking for the moment at the questions of broader power dynamics) can be reinscribed as an act of sexual violence of some kind on the man by the woman. Anna de Logardiere, slinkyvagabond and BBC2, among others, have subsequently questioned whether the locus of sexual violence has to be in the act of penis-vagina penetration, when the act of *sex* doesn't. Sex and the rituals of power and control that might surround it extend massively across many different social interactions, and I guess what I'm wondering is whether there is any way to define rape (beyond the purely forensic) other than something along the lines of "an act of coercion performed by one or more person upon one or more other person with a sexual element without their consent where, while the coercion need not be physical, the sexual element is". So, for example, Toksik's attempt to remove the sexual competence of his straw-lady feminazi by making it clear that he and his WOMAN friend understand what sex is, whereas she does not, has no coercive elementand no physical expression - it's something like a sexual fantasy - so can be placed clearly to the "not" side of rape, while still being identifiably about dialogues of sex and power...

I realise it's a bit late in the day, but can we agree on what rape *is*, if we are ready to concede that a penis need not be an active element, or that the penis need not be used by the aggressor (I think the complexities of Anna's thoughts about violation were lost rather in LLBIMG going to the mattresses, but I don't want to put words in her mouth...)?
 
 
Char Aina
19:24 / 14.04.04
Out of interest, Toksik, what *exactly* do you feel you bring to the conversation by using the term "feminazi"?

as far as i am aware, thiking of sex as violence is not necessary to be a feminist, but it is to be what i would regard as a feminazi. it is a short way(yes, lazy is one of the ways of saying that) of describing 'feminists who put forward a view of an ideal world in which women are not only restored to an equal footing but are also unfairly favoured'. lesbian seperatists often fall into this category for me.

i am not trying to suggest that feminism is wrong or in any way fascist by definition.

i dont think i would have been correct to say that sex as violence was intrinsic to all feminist thought.
 
 
Char Aina
19:32 / 14.04.04
Toksik's attempt to remove the sexual competence of his straw-lady feminazi by making it clear that he and his WOMAN friend understand what sex is, whereas she does not, has no coercive elementand no physical expression - it's something like a sexual fantasy - so can be placed clearly to the "not" side of rape, while still being identifiably about dialogues of sex and power...



yes, i was suggesting that as a lesbian, the lecturer in question was in a bad position to completely understand the dynamics of heterosexual female desire and participation in coitus. the fact that my friend is a woman is relevant, because i am in a similar position to the lecturer in that i am not a heterosexual woman and therefore my understanding is not going to be complete either.

what i believe is that the definition of sex as penetration can lead to some dangerously limiting ideas.

i realise that i was not discussing an incidence of rape.
i was discussing the concept of sexual violence, and one of its relatives, sex as violence.
 
  

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