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Marxism: dead and buried, thank God

 
  

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YNH
03:04 / 16.10.03
What exactly do you want to talk about? This is not meant to antagonize. I seek a common starting point.

In the spirit of disclosure, my initial position was that if any part or parts remained viable, then Marxism was not dead.

After all this time many of the core bits remain descriptive, flexible, and illuminating. First among these is the producers, appropriators, distributors thing where if the producer is not the appropriator then the producer is in an unenviable position. Capitalists like this; Marxists don't. You know, in the theory. That's essential, now and then.
 
 
We're The Great Old Ones Now
08:20 / 16.10.03
In the spirit of disclosure, my initial position was that if any part or parts remained viable, then Marxism was not dead.

Oh.

And thus I pay the price for being overblown in order to get your attention. I think that Marxism as a coherent edifice of theory describing a necessary or contingent progression to Socialism, and the making the moral case for massive societal change in a particular direction is over: if we end up with the revelation that fragments of Marx' theories are still useful to political thinking, I won't be upset - but nor would I consider that to mean that Marxism was alive. Marx' work, yes.

(Actually, if it turns out that Marxism provides a usable roadmap to Utopia, I'll be delighted, but let's not get carried away...)

More to follow - next two weeks are heavy work for me, so forgive the brevity.
 
 
odd jest on horn
12:28 / 27.10.03
Re: Marxism useless due to deficiencies

Heh, I know some bloody idiots who are using linear Newtonian physics to describe how a projectile moves through air. What's with these guys? Don't they know this guy Einstein debunked Newton a hundred years ago? And *linear*? I mean for crying out loud, everybody knows that air resistance is non-linear! Idiots.
 
 
creation
01:07 / 05.11.03
I'm saying it, and I'm not an idiot. If it makes any difference to you, I hold a Political Science degree from what is arguably one of the best universities in the world.

What is this?, the playground? I am sure your accolades are very impressive, there is no need to ratify how you gained your intellect, I would have thought such accreditations lay far from where you should be at now as a person.

Russia was never truly feudal. It was - and in many ways, incidentally, remains - an Absolutist state. In Feudalism, there is a web of rights and responsibilities between vassls and overlords. Absolutism, also called Despotism, is rather different. The power of the monarch is unchecked by any constitution or law

This is a debate that has been raging over historians concerned with the Russian economy. In my view, if social organization in which the landlord "appropriates" part of the peasant's output either in the form of labour services or of payments in cash and kind, and is able to do this because the peasant is under his seigniorial jurisdiction. This to me is feudalism, though many Marxist Leninists have problems pinpointing to when this ended in Russia, Feudalism is in effect a hierarchal system yes?, the landlord owns the workers under serfdom, and till later when serfdom was relieved before the revolution the country was still under that form of control. I know what despotism is, that is what came later after fall of the autocracy, your definitions may vary from mine though.

peasant-agricultural state into an industrial one

That’s a damn great leap. The size of Russia alone is enough for this to be a hard task, but the weather and terrain made it all the more impressive. Russia still had a thriving agricultural system far beyond its industrialization. That leap from peasantry to what it became was a large leap. Getting education and science to develop at that pace is monument to what happened in there.

But I do agree it may have been a miracle, but the price the country paid for it is very unjustified.. But would a democratic alternative have worked in mobilizing a country of that size?

that it isn't too blunt for the more bizarre and complex modern world

More complex world? Meta analysing Keynesian theory still suggest that we are apart of what described. Adam smith said that that master is the pensioner of his slave (something along those lines ) when it comes to making profit skill must be profited from, you employ a workforce, whose skill you are exploiting to gain maximum gain, that’s why 500 billionaires command more of the economic landscape than that of many a nations GDP. Even if you look at the FDI upon the 3rd world countries it is apparent that these investments are made so that profit becomes to the nation in a higher percentile than the investments.

I am sure even you will find it hard to argue that hoarding of wealth was created through sufficient and clear moral means, the federal bank does not have what it has now because moral guidelines were adhered too, in VOL III Marx talks of how war is used in economic terms, in that vein it is clear to see the boost to the American economy circa WWI where they could have joined after the sinking of the Lucitania, but no, business interests lay else where. Then even in WW2 they had many chances to join, but economic prosperity was too much of good thing. American wealth is gained through such means of working on and Exploiting situations. Sound familiar..? The arms trade grossed most of American wealth as the slave trade did for the UK. Economic hegemony is one of the key issues in the Marxian doctrine, why is that not relevant when discussing modern economics?

Define 'Proletariat', please


The class of industrial wage earners who, possessing neither capital nor production means, must earn their living by selling their labour

This is a standard definition that sounds okay to me, taken from:- The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.


In that sense my global description of sweatshops and multinational exploitations still apply, as non of the workers, working for these companies have the means to acquire capital. They (workers for the west) are consuming in what the west are providing to them via consumer good (materials) and gaining profit in a two fold manner, not only are they working for a western company, they are banking, buying and increasing eating western goods. So the Capital (western nations) had wage hegemony not only though underpaid exploitation but through exports.

suspect you mean the rather more tawdry version

I was referring to the Marcuesse’s work, One dimensional man, which stated the notion that material fetishism is fed through not only the progressive nature of wanting more, but it is beginning to encroach upon the time you are spending in leisure, by it falling into this area the consumer is already pre-setting the amount of hours he works to gain the product he has just seen. A continual decapitation from self (explored in eros and civilization) which re-asserts and deconstructs what Freud said, that a society cannot function without work as that is what subverts us from our true nature.

it seems uninterested in offering a theory of individual action or allowing individuals to chose their allegiances; it does not appear to acknowledge moral accountings which have no economic basis

Have you only read the communist manifesto? Exploring his works thus far has lead me to believe that he believes that individuality is sacrificed through a collective subjugation, further more his assertions on there being more leisure time is what he aims for, and many countries now follow his thesis on examples he gave on how over working damaged the individual, another example of his presence is felt in the France where the 35hr a week limit was set by the socialist party. The CM was his earlier work which for the most part was written by Engels, even then Marx was only 30years old, the CM is seen by many as a very incomplete work which was at the beginning of Marx’s exploration into political economy. It is un-fare to think of traditional Marxism as being a clear exploration of today’s economy I agree on that, as it was written at a time when the individual was something not recognized at that time, remember for the most part Schopenhauer, Descartes and the rest of the enlighteners were not read on a mass basis, the elite/bourgeoisie were the only people to have access to this kind of material.

Well saying that, that applies to the majority now, I’d wager that 99% of the world identifies itself through commodity and product than themselves, building their identity through the “art” they are exposed too :roll: People are still as distant from themselves as they were 200 years ago, at least now the opportunities are available to more of the few. Modern Marxism has many followers, I like the optimism they provide like Heidegger children I’d call them:- Hannah Arendt, Karl Lowith, Hans Jonas, and Herbert Marcuse. Of those Marcuse the only one I have read in depth. In short I ascribe to some of the ideas these neo – Marxists exude but I rather like Schopenhauer more

I respect your ideas, sorry if I was rather brash in my previous post.
 
 
No star here laces
06:39 / 05.11.03
Nick has said that he feels that the modern business/economic environment is too complex for Marxian analysis. I wonder if it would be interesting to try to look at key Marxian analyses in the context of modern capitalism.

It has already been touched on upthread, but not thoroughly explored, I felt. Who really are the proletariat and how do we define them. Taking jest's definition above as a start point:

"The class of industrial wage earners who, possessing neither capital nor production means, must earn their living by selling their labour"

Does that mean call-centre workers are not the proletariat because they are not industrial? And if they are, does that mean that management consultants and accountants are also proletarian? Neither option seems quite satisfactory...

Also - generating profits and owning profits. Take Nike. Shoes are made by Philippinos and Vietnamese for very little money. But common business opinion has it that it is the Nike brand that is of value, rather than the shoes, and given that Nike spends far more on the marketing than it does on the production of shoes, who are the creators of profit in this instance? The factory workers or the advertising agencies? Neither own the means of production...
 
 
BioDynamo
10:08 / 05.11.03
The attention they gave and give question of class composition is maybe the one thing that more than any other explains the successes of the Italian autonomia-movement.

They were the first to state what now seems quite obvious (at least to me), namely tat the industrial factory has been "smashed" by strikes, that production was spreading into the rest of society due to the successes of the proletariat, and thus becoming even more effective than before: the sub-contractor-model of production, small autonomous units working as a network rather than a monolithic corporation, etc.

So they produced theories of the "factory society", which relies on both waged labour and a massive amount of "invisible" labour, housework, childcare, healthcare, voluntary cultural work and so forth. They strived and still strive to take the proletarian struggle to all sectors and segments of society, to generalize the strike, and to demand full and fair compensation for the labour done. And since the labour done is, in fact, the labour of being a part in society or the society-factory, the wage should be paid equally to each member in society. Thus, the demand for a guaranteed basic income.

This is all based on marxist theories and theorists' work, and is, as far as I can see, one of the most relevant projects for (further) social change, as well as for understanding the "new class composition", producing a new class consciousness, and thus creating a possibility for revolution.

As a minimum, it creates opportunities and struggle for social reform.
 
 
Disco is My Class War
10:48 / 05.11.03
Here are two articles by Italian writers on immaterial labour -- ie call centres, 'service' work etc -- and how it relates to Marx.

(The Lazzarato one is particularly good.)
 
 
creation
13:45 / 05.11.03
BioD was that Gramascii's(sp) work?

The modern working class.. I would think the old notion of not owning capital still applies here, these workers are nothing more than wage slaves, being placed in environments where they maximize profits for the lowest cost possible. No concessions are made for their well being.

What about managers you asked?, well arent they just like the mill coordinators in the 19-20th century?, there were many of thses fellows who were then related to teh family. Still many managers 80-90% of the (the economist) come from educated backgrounds, and most carry and MBA or graduate degree. So arent these "workers" managers etc apart of the buisiness elite?, I know this may not apply in all cases such as walmart, burger king and MeDonalds. But some of the major buisiness have that system of choice.

Hmm regarding nike, the price of the product is still much lower than the price it's sold for, surplus profit created from low wages and low product value, this gives them the space to stratify the product through advertising and sponsorship, so arent they just using the profits made from one area to another to gain more ?
 
 
Disco is My Class War
00:40 / 06.11.03
creation -- nope, Gramsci was all about hegemony. This is an entirely different Italian tradition. Check out Autopsy to find out more... TOni Negri is probably the most well-known of the tradition, although not the best writer.

(I think this is what BioD would say if he was answering the question, maybe not with the link.)
 
 
BioDynamo
21:18 / 06.11.03

Disco: yeah, you nailed it for me. Except I think Gramsci and the concept of hegemony has had a large influence on the tactics of the operaists or "workerist" left that continued the development of the class concept. So merely a different aspect of the movement, not a different tradition.

Nick: can you see any relevance in this further development of Marxist thinking? These theories are arguably able to produce social struggle, even after the traditional industrial working class has lost it's hegemony. Does that mean that at least some Marxist tendencies are not yet dead and buried?
 
 
BioDynamo
14:13 / 19.11.03

Yesterday I got my hands on a lovely little book, published by Pluto Press, Storming Heaven - Class composition and struggle in Italian Autonomist Marxism, which tries to broaden the understanding and analysis concerning the autonomists available in the english language. The author, Steve Wright, especially seems to want to correct the misconception that Negri is the only relevant autonomist theorist...

Anyway, Nick, if the work of, for instance, these theorists, clearly carrying on in the same tradition as the people and fenomena you mention in the Abstract (Marx, Lenin, communism, socialism), are able to produce and formulate demands for social struggle, is that enough evidence that the theories this social struggle is based on is not worthless?

It may, of course, be that a theory is worthless, and still is able to produce social struggle. Do you think this is the case here? How about if the theory is able to both stand it's own in theoretical academic circles AND produce social struggle? Is that any better?
 
  

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